Legislature(2001 - 2002)
04/18/2001 03:45 PM Senate RES
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 18, 2001
3:45 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator John Torgerson, Chair
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Pete Kelly
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Kim Elton
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chair
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS:
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission - Mr. Bruce Twomley
Board of Game - Mr. William Dennerlein, Mr. Ben Grussendorf,
Dr. Julie Maier
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission - Ms. Julie Heusser
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 01-29, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN JOHN TORGERSON called the Senate Resources Committee
meeting to order at 3:45 p.m. and announced the committee would
start with the confirmation hearing for Mr. Bruce Twomley,
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission (CFEC).
MR. BRUCE TWOMLEY, CFEC, said he would be happy to respond to any
questions members may have.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked Mr. Twomley if he planned any major
changes at the CFEC during the upcoming year.
MR. TWOMLEY said no major changes are planned. He noted, "We would
just like to get through the work in front of us."
SENATOR TAYLOR asked about the status of the shrimp fishery.
MR. TWOMLEY responded:
The limitation is complete. Because the point system is a
fairly simple point system, we have actually almost
completed adjudications. There are at this point about
309 permits on the street. About half of those permits
are non-transferable permits, which fulfills what was our
hope and some of the fishermen's hope at the beginning of
that process. As you know, the numbers got inflated the
way it evolved. Having almost half of the permits non-
transferable means that over time those permits will be
retired and disappear from the fishery. We also note, and
this is encouraging, although there were some 186
individuals participating in the fishery just prior to
limitation, at this point the numbers of actual
participants has dropped below that. So we have only 160
participants participating in the fishery currently.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked why the CFEC did not include a hardship
provision for the shrimp fishery as it has for other fisheries.
MR. TWOMLEY said he had lengthy conversations with Mr. Collier
regarding this concern and that:
The commission in some of its earlier point systems,
particularly the salmon fisheries, had a provision
labeled 'unavoidable circumstances' where in being ranked
against other fishermen who were competing for the same
permits, a fisherman could basically make an excuse for
not having participated, but still be awarded the points
they would have gotten if they had participated. There
was a point when the commission thought this was a fair
way to go even though it wasn't required by statute. It's
not one of the requirements for a point system, but it
wasn't something that was employed in all the fisheries
prior to 1988. Since 1988, in all the fisheries we have
limited, we have not employed it at all, because we found
it tended to create some opportunities for fraud. It's
very hard to evaluate what somebody would have done, but
for some other circumstance that may or [may] not have
prevented them from going fishing. There are so many
reasons for not going fishing in a given season, it's
very hard to be confident that we can really get a handle
on that issue through adjudications. So, it was an issue
that led itself to fraud in some cases and tended to slow
down the adjudication process tremendously as you waded
through all those cases and other fishermen had to wait
for further adjudications to find out where they stood.
What we have tried to do in place of that and it's
something we did in the shrimp point system, we made a
point in the point system of insuring that someone didn't
have to fish all of the years to get all of the points
available…so they wouldn't be prejudiced if they missed a
few years because of some intervening circumstance. As a
result we have been able to get through those
adjudications in record time… So, we're very close to
wrapping up that fishery today.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how CFEC determines a valid landing of a given
amount of fish if there is a dispute with ADF&G.
MR. TWOMLEY replied that they rely initially on the direct reports
from ADF&G, which are computerized. CFEC can come up with a final
point award at a glance looking at that data. He explained, "If
that data tells us, as it does in some cases, that there was a
fisheries violation that led to a confiscation of the catch by Fish
and Wildlife Protection officers, we will not credit that toward a
permit."
He added that the individual may contest that determination and
then he or she has a chance to prove that the computerized
information is wrong.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what CFEC does if it's not confiscated.
MR. TWOMLEY replied:
If it's not confiscated, it's normally invisible to us.
It normally represents a less serious violation. Those
are violations that aren't recorded in Fish and Game fish
ticket data and consequently nothing has been triggered
on our end. If you look back at the history of limited
entry and adjudications, there are undoubtedly many cases
of individuals who had those minor violations that were
invisible to the commission and they have gotten credit
for that fishing and have gotten permits. Where that has
led us, as in the case pointed out by Mr. Collier, when
fishermen are singled out and someone has pointed to them
saying there is a violation but it turns out to be a
similar minor violation, we haven't wanted to single
those individuals out for the more serious treatment that
we give more serious violations, because it would appear
to us to be violative of the anti-discriminations
provisions in the authorizing section of our statute.
SENATOR ELTON said Mr. Twomley is an appointee that is rare, if not
unique. He added, "He is a high-level appointee who has been
appointed by Governor Hammond, Governor Sheffield, Governor Cowper,
Governor Hickel and Governor Knowles. I don't know frankly if
there's anybody else who's given us two decades of service in an
appointed position in a rather contentious arena. I think that says
something about the quality of the nominee."
Number 600
SENATOR HALFORD moved to forward Mr. Twomley's name to the full
Senate for confirmation. There were no objections and it was so
ordered.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON introduced Ms. Julie Heusser, an appointee to
the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC).
MS. HEUSSER said that she is a life-long Alaskan and has a degree
in petroleum engineering. She said she really cares about what goes
on in Alaska. She has 20 years of practical experience with the oil
and gas industry.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON said his office made a few calls and that Ms.
Heusser comes highly recommended.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass Ms. Heusser's name to the full Senate.
There were no objections and it was so ordered.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON introduced Mr. William Dennerlein, an appointee
to the Board of Game.
MR. WILLIAM DENNERLEIN said that he has lived in Alaska for 27
years. He is personally interested in the full spectrum of the uses
of wildlife. He worked for Governor Hammond as a State Park
Director; he worked in local government; he worked with a private
corporation managing a commercial fishing company; and now he is a
regional director for a private citizen organization.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON asked if he has any priorities he wants the
Board of Game to address this year.
MR. DENNERLEIN answered that this is a very important time for
wildlife management in the state. He hopes to see progress on a
number of fronts, such as Unit 19. He added, "We really need to
manage predators and we're going to need to manage them in
different ways." He believes it is possible to rebuild moose
populations in a way that will be acceptable to a large majority of
Alaskans.
SENATOR HALFORD asked if his current employment is with the
National Parks and Conservation Association (NPCA).
MR. DENNERLEIN answered it is.
SENATOR HALFORD asked if he would continue his employment there as
a member of the Board of Game.
MR. DENNERLEIN said he would. He said his organization had not made
any proposals to the Board, but he would not vote on any if it did.
SENATOR HALFORD said some of the upcoming proposals have to do with
the north side of McKinley Park and closing hunting and trapping on
state land in Units 19 and 20. He asked Mr. Dennerlein to comment
on those proposals.
MR. DENNERLEIN said [he] would not want the wolves in Unit 19
killed, but in the McGrath area [he] would impose predator control
and make some changes in subsistence hunting. He explained, "We're
going to try to reduce the impact of bears, wolves and human take
and that's all going to be part of that plan." He told members the
Board looked at proposals in Unit 20 regarding the Stampede Road in
November. He didn't think the board has to eliminate hunting or
trapping altogether but the boundary is unmanageable so the board
has been discussing ways to make it more manageable. However, he
believes that is not a reason to overreach into local hunting and
subsistence.
SENATOR HALFORD asked if he supports the elimination of subsistence
trapping of wolves in the Savage River to Stampede Trail area on
the north side of McKinley Park.
MR. DENNERLEIN said he does not and stated, "I think in small
zones, some people would be willing to eliminate the taking of
specific species, not trapping for wolves. The taking of a wolf
[indisc.] in one given zone and that I would support. That doesn't
mean steps for lynx, fur bearers, and all the other subsistence
activities."
SENATOR HALFORD said he asked about subsistence trapping of wolves
in an area that the congressional and state delegations fought very
hard to maintain open to trapping. [The National Parks and
Conservation Association] opposed that in the 1980 act, but the
state was successful in keeping it open and now it appears there
may be an effort to close it. He said they are, "talking about the
subsistence trapping by local rural residents and it seems
inconsistent with the position of the state and the entire federal
management structure when McKinley Park was expanded and its name
changed."
MR. DENNERLEIN responded that he thought this is the one particular
area that is mentioned in the intent language in the bill on the
addition to the park. He said it's important for people to know
that there isn't any kind of agenda to change the balance and
purposes of what the federal act said about parks and preserves -
they are supposed to protect the land and the integrity of
wilderness and wildlife species dependent on wilderness. The
purpose section of the act says, "to provide opportunities for
rural residents engaged in subsistence to continue to do so."
MR. DENNERLEIN said he didn't think it was inconsistent to take a
specific management action that may have a lot of additional
benefits for the state. He saw the simple introduction of the
wolves in Yellowstone change the economy of a number of the
communities. It increased the flow of dollars into those
communities and Denali plays an enormous role in our economy;
people consistently visit to see bears and wolves.
SENATOR HALFORD asked, "I guess it's okay to have customary and
traditional dependence on a species that hasn't been there for 100
years?"
MR. DENNERLEIN said he believes it will become more and more
important that the boards cooperate on habitat issues and keep
looking for quality habitat access that can sustain the
populations. He said the board needs to communicate with landowners
so they can work together to produce more animals.
Number 2200
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how long he has been a spokesman for the NPCA.
MR. DENNERLEIN responded that he has been a representative since
1993.
SENATOR TAYLOR said, "In just the last couple of years, you, as
their spokesman, sent out a mail membership solicitation indicating
that wolf hunting and trapping threatened the viability of Alaska's
wolf population. That seems contrary to the statements you have
just made. In addition to that, you are one of the advocates for
this association, which puts out a document entitled 'National Park
Activist Guide,' which explains the need to create emotional appeal
and then gives a case study example of a very successful emotional
campaign that was distorted, but was very compelling in its
effectiveness." He asked if that is what Mr. Dennerlein is giving
the committee today.
MR. DENNERLEIN answered that he hadn't seen any literature in which
the NPCA said [wolf hunting and trapping] threatens the viability
of the wolf population in Alaska. He stated, "If you have that, I'd
love to see it. If it's dated, we'll make sure it gets buried
forever. It's incorrect and I've never said that." He said his
organization has an activist guide, which he works on, but if that
statement is made someplace, he would like an opportunity to
correct it.
TAPE 01-29, SIDE B
SENATOR TAYLOR said the Governor has repeatedly made it a criterion
for appointment to this board that only "publicly acceptable
methods will be used for predator management." He asked if Mr.
Dennelein adheres to that principle.
MR. DENNERLEIN said he does and that he doesn't think shoving a
program down people's throats is a good idea. He added, "Publicly
acceptable does not mean everybody and there will always be people
that will not abide by any act of wildlife management. People will
accept management if it's clearly defined…"
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he doesn't want to do any predator control
until the game population was so beaten down that none of the
people in the area could even hunt them any more and wait for the
subsistence people who need the animals to come forward and promise
they won't hunt them any more. He said he was frustrated by Mr.
Dennerlein's answer and the situation that he thinks is going on.
He asked Mr. Dennerlein which methods of game management are
publicly acceptable.
MR. DENNERLEIN said a variety of methods could be used in
combination. Lethal control is justified in some cases, but it
doesn't mean that is should be used all of the time every year.
This cannot be perceived as a war on predators. He said you have to
be careful with poisoning, because it's non-selective. Denning has
its place also, and, in some cases, expanding trapping seasons
works better.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON thanked Mr. Dennerlein for his comments and
announced Mr. Ben Grussendorf as an appointee to the Board of Game.
Number 1900
MR. BEN GRUSSENDORF, testifying via teleconference, apologized for
not being at the meeting in person. He said he enjoys the work, the
subject and the people who are interested in the issues he is
interested in. He noted that 85 percent of the time, the board has
voted unanimously on issues and he believes that is remarkable for
a seven-person board. The other 15 percent of the votes were not on
a single subject, area or species. The one area where there was a
disagreement among board members was on the use of motorized
vehicles, such as snowmobiles, airboats and jet boats.
SENATOR KELLY asked what he thought about the Board's tools being
acceptable to the public.
MR. GRUSSENDORF responded that what is understandable is a
difficult question, but he intended to put out something that was
understandable even though it might not be liked by some parties,
as with predator control. His arguments have not been whether there
should be predator control, but who should be doing it. He
maintains that it should be the Alaska Department of Fish and Game
(ADF&G) or its agents.
SENATOR KELLY said he introduced a bill three years ago that
allowed ADF&G to land and shoot, which was not allowed under the
1996 initiative. One provision he put in the bill was that only
ADF&G or its agents would be allowed to land and shoot. He asked
Mr. Grussendorf why he voted against it at the time and why he
suggested an amendment to remove "or their agents" from the bill.
MR. GRUSSENDORF said he has moved from that in relation to
intensive game management in Area 19 and perhaps some other areas.
He also had some concerns about the terrain in Unit 19D.
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON indicated there were no further questions and
noted that Mr. Grussendorf was getting off easy. He then introduced
Dr. Julie Maier as an appointee to the Board of Game.
DR. JULIE MAIER said she has a variety of skills, education and
knowledge that would make her valuable to the Board of Game. She
has a commitment to public service and loves people. Most
importantly, she is dedicated to the resource, its health, and
long-term viability. She believes that humans are a natural
component of the ecosystem.
SENATOR KELLY asked Dr. Maier to explain her stand on predator
control and public opinion in Unit 19D East.
DR. MAIER responded that she was "beaten on" over a petition to
close an area of the state to protect some wolf pups, which she
voted against. She thought the state could do a better job of
educating the public with a well thought-out program. She would
support wolf control in the area of McGrath without question.
SENATOR KELLY asked if she would support lethal predator control.
DR. MAIER answered, "Absolutely."
SENATOR KELLY asked if she would support it now.
DR. MAIER answered, "Absolutely."
SENATOR KELLY asked if it would happen this winter.
DR. MAIER answered, "I hope so."
SENATOR KELLY noted that the Governor is talking about more studies
and that area cannot afford to spend another five minutes on
studies. Hecommented, "Somebody has got to go shoot a wolf. Are you
going to do that?"
DR. MAIER agreed, "There are only so many studies you can do."
Number 1000
SENATOR TAYLOR asked for a description of North Atlantic
oscillation.
MS. MAIER explained that it's the movement of wind from the Western
Hemisphere in North America to Europe and it affects the weather
both here and in Europe.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if it was driven by the El Nino effect.
DR. MAIER replied the North Atlantic oscillation is believed to be
part of a northern hemispheric process and is the driving force
behind large weather patterns. El Nino is a periodic event that
just shows up sometimes here and there. The North Atlantic
oscillation is constant although it changes direction.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that Penn State [studied] the North Atlantic
oscillation and its effect on elk in Afognak and asked what they
could tell by the study and what difference it would make since the
elk are a planted species.
DR. MAIER replied that it was a curiosity. She explained that
researchers could plug in population numbers from any species over
the course of 12 years in this model. In the case of Afognak, they
found that female elk were more susceptible to harsh winters. The
ice and snow depth have a significant impact on the animals on the
ground.
SENATOR TAYLOR said between August and September of last year, Dr.
Maier lectured on wildlife topics including the effects of global
warming on the population dynamics of elk in Alaska. He asked if
those lectures were based on the Afognak elk.
MS. MAIER replied they were because it is the one population that
she had continuous data on.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that she also lectured on the subject of
caribou responses to disturbance of low altitude jet aircraft
overflights, which he thought seemed "awful esoteric."
DR. MAIER replied that the Air Force hired the University and AVR,
Inc. to investigate the effects of Air Force jets on caribou for an
EIS. They did the same project on desert big horned sheep and white
tailed or mule deer in Arizona. She found that caribou were
sensitive to jet noise during calving. The animals that got very
high doses of jet noise moved further than caribou that weren't
flown over. This could cause problems like separation of mother and
calf and increased predation rates. Folks in Canada found a higher
mortality rate of caribou calves from sustained overflights in
Canada.
Number 700
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what she thought was harder on a caribou herd,
a pack of 50 wolves or a couple of jets that fly over it once a
week.
DR. MAIER replied that the wolves would be significantly more
damaging.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how well the elk on Raspberry Island would do
if a pack of wolves was relocated there, like in Yellowstone Park.
DR. MAIER said she didn't think they would do very well.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he appreciated her candor.
SENATOR KELLY asked her to explain the McGrath package. He said he
wanted to know what the board is going to do this year because the
working group in McGrath came up with a recommendation for further
studies. He asked if that report had been presented to the board
yet and what action it will take if it has.
DR. MAIER said she got hold of the McGrath plan before the March
Board of Game meeting but she didn't know if the whole board got
it. She understands that future studies will include watching what
the effects of predator control are. There is a scheduled meeting
for May 18 - 20, which is when there should be some proposals
before the board that relate to the McGrath situation.
SENATOR KELLY asked what percentage of the pack the board intends
to take out and whether that would happen this winter.
DR. MAIER answered that she thought the best time to get out there
is during February and March when the weather is better. That is
when both wolf and moose counts take place. She didn't know if they
would do anything before that. They are going to do a calf
mortality study in May/June, which is part of the further research.
The board wants to know the exact numbers of predation by wolves
and bears. She thought they would take out about 12 percent of the
pack. She understands it would be from control areas where they
would take 100 percent of the wolves. Any wolves that would stray
over the line into the control area would also be taken out. She
wasn't sure what the percentages were in the adjoining areas.
SENATOR KELLY said it was about 12 moose per wolf per year.
DR. MAIER said that is correct.
SENATOR KELLY said that was a lot of moose and he didn't know if
the program would be worthwhile if they wait until February since
last year was such a tough year.
TAPE 01-30, SIDE A
SENATOR KELLY commented that wolves could run across a crust of
snow that the moose were stuck in. The remaining 1,400 animals in a
herd that once numbered 6,000 could have very well have dropped
below 1,000 this year. He stated, "If there is another year like
last year, by February if they start taking the pack out, what's
left of that herd may be so low, it's going to take 15 years to get
it up to a level of 2,500 moose, which is far below the historic
high of 5 or 6,000."
SENATOR ELTON moved to forward the names of Dr. Maier, Mr.
Dennerlein and Mr. Grussendorf to the full Senate for a vote on
confirmation. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
There being no further business to come before the committee, VICE-
CHAIR KELLY adjourned the meeting at 5:15 p.m.
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