Legislature(1997 - 1998)
01/29/1997 03:35 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
January 29, 1997
3:35 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Bert Sharp
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator John Torgerson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Department of Fish and Game Overview:
Commissioner Frank Rue
Kevin Brooks, Director, Division of Administration
Robert Clasby, Director, Division of Commercial Fisheries
Wayne Regelin, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation
Janet Kowalski, Director, Division of Habitat and Restoration
Mary Pete, Director, Division of Subsistence
Dale Anderson, Commissioner, Limited Entry Commission
SENATE BILL NO. 7
"An Act reducing certain resident sport fishing, hunting, and
trapping license fees, increasing certain nonresident sport fishing
license and tag fees, and relating to nonresident sport fishing,
hunting, and trapping licenses; and providing for an effective
date."
SCHEDULED, BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 7 - No previous action to consider.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-4, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:35 p.m. and announced an overview presentation by the
Department of Fish and Game.
COMMISSIONER FRANK RUE noted that he had a number of department
directors available for questions and highlighted some of the
larger issues they are facing. One of the largest is the whole
dual subsistence management and the on-going federal management of
wildlife and the continuing efforts by the federal government to
exert authority on fisheries. He said the State continues to press
the lawsuit which is in the Supreme Court, although they are not
sure what will happen there. He said there is a moratorium on the
federal regulations until this October. The other large issue in
the State is the continuing and increased demand for a variety of
the resources.
Number 72
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked why they are still issuing permits for the
Nelchina caribou herd when they have already issued 36,000.
COMMISSIONER RUE replied that it had to do with the Tier I and Tier
II issue and the timing for harvesting the right sex.
SENATOR TAYLOR said it was his understanding that the herd had been
classified as Tier II some time ago and the reason they are still
issuing the permits is that the Department somehow feels compelled,
through federal legislation, to continue to treat it as a Tier II
herd when, in fact, there is no justification.
MR. WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of wildlife Conservation,
explained that there is a Tier II hunt for which they issued 6,000
permits and there's a Tier I, or registration hunt, for which they
have issued 34,000 permits. Tier I means only Alaska residents can
apply. He said they would like to get out of the Tier II hunts,
but there is a legal problem with the structure of the laws. He
said there are about 44,000 caribou in the Nelchina herd now and
they wanted to reduce the herd to about 35,000. That means they
would like to harvest 15,000 caribou this year. So far they have
harvested 4,600 and the season is still on.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked why the harvest was so low. SENATOR LEMAN
commented that he was drawn for a Tier II permit and he has been
too busy to use it yet. MR. REGELIN added that many people got a
permit, which is free, in case they wanted to go hunting. He noted
that now the caribou are in a different unit and it is hard to hunt
this time of the year.
COMMISSIONER RUE commented given that number of permits in a normal
year they would have expected a higher harvest, but the weather
this year was especially adverse.
Number 170
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the tier system was State or federal law.
MR. REGELIN answered that it was State law. SENATOR TAYLOR asked
if the law was that way to comply with federal law. COMMISSIONER
RUE replied that basically the State law is the one the State
legislature thought was the appropriate way to deal with
subsistence. This isn't consistent with the federal approach. He
said there have been different proposals for amending it to make it
simpler.
MR. REGELIN explained that also regarding the Nelchina herd, if
there wasn't a problem with the sex ratio of the herd in trying to
reduce it, they would probably have been able to open a general
season after the Tier II season. There was a need to harvest only
females to maintain a balanced sex ratio for reproduction and the
registration permit method is the only way they could make sure
females were taken and not males. He said they want to make sure
they maintain a highly productive herd so they can continue to have
good harvests.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he heard it took them a month to get the
permits out. MR. REGELIN responded that it takes them about 10
days.
Number 230
SENATOR LEMAN noted, regarding the increased demand in
sportfishing, that the Alaska resident numbers are staying fairly
stable, but the increase has been with non-residents. He asked if
that trend is continuing and is it a problem. COMMISSIONER RUE
said there was an increase in non-resident licenses which, on one
hand, is good for a commercial charter operator, but not so good,
if you're a resident sportfisherman. In terms of the demand on the
resource, it does put pressure in certain places which causes
management issues. It also creates conflicts among other users.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how much in general funds is used in
sportfish management. COMMISSIONER RUE replied that the Sportfish
Division gets very little authority to receive general funds and
that the management in the commercial fisheries is aimed at getting
in-stream escapements and river allocation to sport users. He
views the management of fish from ocean to river as a seamless
effort to achieve allocation objectives of commercial, sport,
subsistence, and escapement.
Number 262
COMMISSIONER RUE said he just spent the past couple of days talking
with all segments of the salmon industry on the marketing issue.
Farmed salmon are now outproducing Alaska in numbers of fish and
the State is trying to come up with ways to keep its wild salmon
competitive.
He said that allocation disputes continue to be significant issues
for the Department and the Board process is a good portion of their
work load.
He noted that people outside of Southeast Alaska may begin to feel
the pressure of the US/Canada fish disputes. He added that both
commercial and sport resource users are proud that they contribute
a lot to pay for the management of their resource.
One of the critical issues they face, COMMISSIONER RUE said, is
maintaining their quality management program. He said they get
criticized a lot by others who didn't have many fish left.
COMMISSIONER RUE directed the Committee's attention to the overview
for the Department's budget breakdowns and the summary of issues.
He noted that a number of offices around the State are permanent
part time, but he thought it was very important for them to be
there for accessibility by the public and for field work. He also
noted that ADF&G is over half permanent part-time or seasonal
employees.
COMMISSIONER RUE emphasized that it is important for the Endangered
Species Act, the US/Canada Treaty negotiations, and other issues
for us to maintain our fisheries and wildlife with good science.
We have to know what's going on and how things are changing, he
said, and we need to have good on-the-ground real time management.
We have to maintain our habitat base so that we can withstand the
vagaries of the ocean and make sure that the wildlife that returns
has a place to reproduce and maintain itself. We also must
maintain a good public involvement process. In terms of the
budget, he said he didn't see the need for any supplementals.
Number 368
MR. KEVIN BROOKS, Director, Administrative Services, noted that
there were three intent items in their budget for FY 97 - all
relating to program receipts and if they were to come up short,
they would work with the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee.
He said they had done that a couple of times and have basically
complied with the intent language that was inserted in the budget.
Number 380
SENATOR GREEN asked what would be the impact of their budget
request of going from capital to operating. MR. REGELIN explained
that last year the legislature reduced their operating budget by
$1.4 million and added back $1.39 million in the CIPs for specific
projects. They have now done those projects or are in the process
of doing them. Most of it was to run programs like Kraemer's Field
in Fairbanks and Potter's Marsh in Anchorage for one year while
they were able to come up with alternative sources of funds. They
are now recommending that those funds be put back into the
operating budget, rather than to continue with the CIPs.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked him to explain his proposal for the fish and
game fund this year. COMMISSIONER RUE inserted here that a
significant issue is the watchable non-consumptive use of wildlife
and how we maintain those programs.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted that the users now pay for all the programs.
COMMISSIONER RUE said that was correct, but hunters and fishermen
did not mind having some of their money spent on educational and
viewing programs. However, everyone agrees that other users of
wildlife need to contribute. Now there is a federal initiative for
all states to look at a program that taxes other users of wildlife.
He said that would require a match and the Alaska Visitors
Association has endorsed the idea. This year they are proposing
putting general funds into Wildlife Conservation to pay for, in
particular, McNeil River, Potter's March, and those kinds of
programs.
The Governor's budget proposes a slight increase for the salaries
and that's it. They are proposing using some Fish and Game funds
for the Board of Game since it benefits users of the resource.
Right now it's all general funds supporting the Board of Game.
SENATOR HALFORD asked if it was a coincidence that the general fund
used for watchable wildlife is in exactly the same amount as the
fish and game fund that goes into administration, so that the net
effect is $0 in general funds, but the net effect is watchable
wildlife coming out of the general fund. MR. REGELIN replied that
it was no coincidence. SENATOR HALFORD said he objected to using
fish and game funds for watchable wildlife. So their response is
use fish and game funds for administration and release
administration funds for watchable wildlife. COMMISSIONER RUE
explained that administrative funds were going to the Board of
Game.
SENATOR TAYLOR had a question about interpreting the graphs in the
overview. COMMISSIONER RUE explained and added that the one thing
that appears to add to the ADF&G budget is the Exxon Valdez money
and the way it was put into the budget.
Number 498
SENATOR SHARP asked what the general fund designated receipts was
from. COMMISSIONER RUE answered that was primarily from the test
fish receipts from the Division of Commercial Fish.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how long EVOS was going to last as a funding
source for stock identification. COMMISSIONER RUE replied that it
had been very helpful with the genetic stock i.d. work they have
done, particularly in Cook Inlet. He said it was an experiment for
Exxon to see if they could manage more precisely and help stock
recover by getting them back into the system and they found that it
does work. He was concerned with not having the funds to continue
the work.
Number 521
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what was happening on the subsistence issue.
COMMISSIONER RUE replied that some positive things were happening
and he thought there were opportunities for us working with other
entities, particularly with collecting information that is useful
for everyone. He said that cooperative management was an
opportunity to involve the public and the users in how they manage.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what dollar amount they are requesting to do
predator control in the McGrath area. COMMISSIONER RUE responded
that they are looking at whether to implement predator control
based on a couple of things: one is they want to see what is
happening with the Academy study that's due out this summer; they
need to work with the legislature and the Board to define some
terms in the initiative that was passed. MR. REGELIN added that
they were asking for $90,000 in the budget.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how much per wolf that came out to. MR.
REGELIN answered in the past it has worked out to be about $2,000
per wolf. He said the Board of Game has authorized wolf control;
the next step is for the Commissioner to implement the plan. And
he is waiting for the National Academy of Science study.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the Academy was doing any actual field
studies. MR. REGELIN explained that the study has no field effort
at all. They are evaluating the science that has been done in the
past, since people were questioning whether the work the Department
was doing was valid. He anticipated it would say they know an
awful lot about management of predator/predator relationships. We
are the experts in the world, he stated.
TAPE 97-4, SIDE B
Number 590
COMMISSIONER RUE elaborated that there were many different ways to
do predator control. Many local people prefer a permit system of
giving local people a permit to land and shoot, although an
initiative just passed making that more difficult.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he didn't think the Department was doing good
science and not doing good on-ground management relative to real-
time management. COMMISSIONER RUE said they are getting their
ducks in order before they make a final decision. That includes
making sure the method, if it's needed, is appropriate; and if it's
a local program, they want to make sure it's legally defensible -
given the initiative. SENATOR TAYLOR was concerned that they were
being reviewed by a group that is less expert than the department
is.
SENATOR LINCOLN acknowledged Senator Taylor's concern for the
subsistence of the people in her district. She said she had
attended a meeting in McGrath with the Commissioner and the
Governor on the issue of predator control. It was well attended by
the community and she thought the Department had made a lot of
progress toward resolving the problem.
Number 524
SENATOR HALFORD asked the status of the joint efforts to protect
navigability and land transfers.
JAN KOWALSKI, Director, Division of Habitat and Restoration, said
the legislature gave them a supplemental appropriation to boost
ADF&Gs effort on navigability. Currently they have a team staffed
from Conservation and Wildlife, Sportfish, and Habitat with a very
specific task of looking at navigability on a state-wide basis,
providing support to the Department of Law for filing title for
navigability. So the State will assert its right to own the
submerged lands; and work with DNR to make sure that their records
are properly evaluated. The primary purpose of the group is
litigation support for asserting navigability.
She said they are making sure that they are spending a combination
of funds for this effort and making sure that specific players are
supporting very discreet activities which result in improved access
for the sport hunting and the sport fishing community, in
particular. She said that Department of Law could not put the
litigation forward without the staff work that's going in.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what they had accomplished. She said she
could answer that better tomorrow morning because the team leader
is flying in from Anchorage and the briefing is set for 8:30.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked for the status of the US/Canada discussions.
COMMISSIONER RUE said we are doing a lot better than before on this
issue. He put a group together from Sport Fish and Commercial Fish
to focus on it, because it was starting to have not only Endangered
Species Act impacts, but the US/Canada Treaty negotiations were
being impacted. The Governor also called the Sitka Salmon Summit
meeting with Governor Lowry of Washington and Governor Kitzhaber of
Oregon and they agreed that the issue ought to be brought back to
the West Coast. Mr. Ron Allen from the Tribes attended also, he
said. They worked out a chinook deal that is abundance based. So
as the chinook population cycles down, everyone suffers, but as it
comes back up there will be a formula for all our fishermen up here
to share in the gain. He thought we would do pretty well in the
chinook part of the Treaty. The Governors and the Tribes proposed
a stake-holders meeting with fishing organizations doing the
negotiations - letting the bureaucrats stay in the hall.
COMMISSIONER RUE said they are also fighting litigation from
Washington where some people are trying to undo some of the Treaty
provisions that would basically bring the Bolt Decision north.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked about enforcement initiatives. COMMISSIONER
RUE replied that one of the increments in the Sport Fish Division
budget is for $100,000 which they are proposing as reciprocal
services agreement to Division of Protection in Public Safety for
some part time enforcement agents for sport fish issues around the
Kenai. He clarified that there would be a number of them for the
summer only.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that the Canadians have never provided us with
decent information on the volumes and species types taken in the
boundary fisheries of Dixon Entrance, especially sport catch of
kings on inside waters. He asked if they were planning on
enforcing the new law requiring Canadian fishermen using US
anchorages to report species and numbers they have. MR. BOB
CLASBY, Director, Commercial Fisheries, replied that they tried to
coordinate a reporting system with the Coast Guard's to make sure
they didn't set up a dual reporting system that confused those
folks who were reporting. He said he would have a report for him
on how it worked this past season.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he wanted those numbers and he didn't care what
the Canadians thought; he wants them to know if they are going to
be part of the Treaty, they bring their numbers to the table. And
they have refused to do that in the past.
Number 400
COMMISSIONER RUE said that there was no connection with the three
Governor's meeting and he would check on this issue. He stated
that it is their intent to enforce the law. He said the State has
been aggressive with Canada and getting a good Treaty arrangement.
He noted that when the Treaty was originally negotiated the outside
Vancouver Island Sport Fishery didn't count.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said there are charges that the Department
consistently supports anti-harvest groups and if the Department is
funded with dollars that come from consumptive users, he felt they
should get a fair shake in those kinds of issues. COMMISSIONER RUE
asked the Committee to send anyone to him who had that perception
and it was not their intent to give an unfair shake to anyone. He
noted that they had worked on a lot of new programs for hunters.
SENATOR HALFORD responded that it was his understanding the Hunter
Heritage Foundation of Alaska has been denied use of the
Department's logo while the Watchable Wildlife Trust was allowed to
use it. COMMISSIONER RUE said he appreciated hearing about it and
would look into it.
MR. CLASBY commented that the Canadians actually have a law on the
books that prohibits commercial fishing vessels from transiting
their waters with commercial fishing gear on board. One of the
fears they had at the time of instituting a double recording system
that might trigger some reaction on the Canadian side was that all
of our fishermen who transit their waters on the way south this
winter would either have to off-load their commercial fishing gear
or actually have to make a passage on the outside.
Number 364
SENATOR GREEN asked where the discussion was between DNR and ADF&G
with one stop for implementing the Forest Practices Act. MS.
KOWALSKI answered they made working with the Department of Natural
Resources and the timber industry through the Board of Forestry and
their Science Technical Committee that they appointed the number
one priority this year. She said there was a lot of activity
especially with the legislation that passed last year regarding
value-added and small timber operations on State lands. She
explained that there are different standards for forest practices
on federal, state, and private lands. DNR is not in the business
of working on federal timber lands, she said, so her comments were
on State and private lands.
On State land, DNR is the lead agency for Forest Practices. ADF&G
works with them on the sale and regulation of State timber sales.
DNR actually put out more timber last year than in previous years.
On private lands there was a lot of discussion about the way the
Forest Practices Act was revised several years ago where it
required DEC, ADF&G, and DNR to go out into the field and make
inspections.
Last year they actually had two major efforts to address some of
the issues: on private lands they were concerned with their ability
to deliver services because they had a very small staff. They were
concerned with the impacts of logging on private lands to fish and
wildlife populations. There were 21 recommendations in the report.
The Science Technical Committee of the Board of Forestry, composed
of industry, fishing, general public, ADF&G personnel, and federal
scientists worked through all 21 of the Department's
recommendations and came up with consensus on all, but one, of
those recommendations and reported to the Board of Forestry last
week. She said it was a very intense and positive effort.
Number 326
MS. KOWALSKI said the second major effort was the Governors asking
DEC, DNR, and ADF&G to sit down at the directors level as a task
force and really look at what can agencies do to improve their
service delivery on both State and private land. One of the strong
messages they heard from industry was that they wanted the agencies
to improve the interagency relationship before it came to industry.
So they have evaluated a couple of models for improving service
delivery. One was a consultant model with certified engineers who
would be able to perform some of the inspections required under the
Forest Practices Act. Another example was to put some of that
burden on industry and do a cost shifting scenario.
Another thing staff did was work on a monitoring form or check list
where as the agencies went out they could start gathering data that
the Act requires them to put together.
She said the Act requires the Department to do certain functions
and since there isn't enough staff to do that, they are already
prioritizing their work load. They do not duplicate efforts
between agencies and they rely heavily on sharing travel. She said
the Board of Forestry would be making a formal report to the
legislature.
COMMISSIONER RUE concluded that DNR is the lead on public notice
and how to get timber sales out faster. He is willing to work with
them on making the public notice more efficient.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked him to provide a list of all the legal cases
they have and the budget they have for them. She wanted to hear
more about work they are doing with permit holders and the IRS who
is trying to take permits. She also wanted to hear about where we
are on the subsistence issue since September is when the federal
government is going to take control of fish and game in their
areas.
Number 241
DALE ANDERSON, Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission, explained
that for the past 10 years the IRS has been after Alaska permits.
Last year the Commission distributed a decision on the Carl case
saying that the Limited Entry Commission would not transfer a
permit that was sold by the IRS for non-tax compliance. The
Commissioners determined that the IRS had violated their own
internal management by producing a sale that was conditional which
was against all of their codes for sales. Since then they have
attempted to work with the IRS and they have collaborated with a
number of Agencies that assist fishermen when they are approached
by the IRS.
He said they had asked the IRS to give them adequate notice so the
State could attempt to help these folks. However, in December they
were surprised with two days notice of an attempted pre-Christmas
sale of two permits on the Kenai Peninsula. They were able to get
one of the sales postponed. The IRS did sell a second permit with
a street value of $30,000 for $5,005. The Commission believes it
was a set-up for the buyer to sue the State when it decided not to
transfer the permit. The buyer has since withdrawn.
The Commission has told the IRS they can go after the earnings of
a permit, but not the permit itself. So they are still embattled.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she appreciated their efforts to help Alaskan
fishermen and to keep permits here.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if Child Support Enforcement Could go after
a permit. COMMISSIONER ANDERSON replied that they have chosen not
to because they recognize the fact that the person needs access to
the fishery in order to pay off the past debts.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if CSED has the right to decide that they
are not going after certain licenses after the bill was passed last
year. COMMISSIONER ANDERSON said he hadn't seen any cases filed.
MR. BROOKS said that came up with the Welfare Reform bill last year
and they did get their licenses excluded. That will not be the
case for long, because federal law overrides that.
SENATOR GREEN asked why they would hold themselves different from
anyone else in the State. MR. BROOKS replied that his concern that
they have 1,400 vendors State-wide and it was setting up a
confrontational position with someone who wants to buy a license.
Under the new proposal the defendant would be issued a notice with
a time period after the fact. So this takes the vendor out of the
loop and the State then deals with someone who is on CSED's list.
SENATOR GREEN said she found it peculiar that they would intervene
with the IRS on behalf of a citizen.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated that the real issue here is that the
combined value of permits is approximately $1.1 billion and the
State contends that it is not a property value and we have
successfully contended that in arguing with the IRS for a decade
and it's part of protecting Alaskan's entry into the fishery.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if we were Alaskanizing this or providing the
same State resources to permit holders with IRS liens who don't
live in Alaska.
COMMISSIONER ANDERSON noted that the IRS had not yet gone after a
non-resident permit. SENATOR TAYLOR said we would really be in
trouble if we start treating different groups of permit holders in
a different fashion.
TAPE 96-5, SIDE A
Number 001
COMMISSIONER ANDERSON detailed a brief history of the Carl case.
MS. MARY PETE, Director, Division of Subsistence, said that th
federal subsistence program started in 1990. She said our
delegation might be able to extend the September 1 moratorium.
Even with the moratorium the federal program is proceeding with an
environmental assessment which should be due out in a month. This
will tell them if they need to do an environmental impact statement
to apply federal subsistence fishing regulations under federal
jurisdiction.
The Department has established a more proactive, coordinated
approach to address our relationship with the federal subsistence
program. She said their goal is to keep the disruptions to State
users to a minimum on federal lands as well as to protect the
resource.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if she thought administration of State law
on State lands was working. MS. PETE said she thought the State
was doing the job it should. There were "hot spots" like the Kenai
and other populated areas having non-subsistence areas around the
urban centers, but she thought the law was implementable.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said SB 7 would be held until Monday and adjour
the meeting at 5:12 p.m.
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