Legislature(2005 - 2006)BUTROVICH 205

03/07/2005 03:30 PM RESOURCES

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
Moved SB 103 Out of Committee
Moved SB 110 Out of Committee
-- On the Above Bills Testimony --
<By Invitation Only>
Moved CSHB 76(FIN)AM Out of Committee
Moved HCR 2 Out of Committee
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
              SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         March 7, 2005                                                                                          
                           3:37 p.m.                                                                                            
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
Senator Thomas Wagoner, Chair                                                                                                   
Senator Ralph Seekins, Vice Chair                                                                                               
Senator Ben Stevens                                                                                                             
Senator Fred Dyson                                                                                                              
Senator Bert Stedman                                                                                                            
Senator Kim Elton                                                                                                               
Senator Gretchen Guess                                                                                                          
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
SENATE BILL NO. 103                                                                                                             
"An  Act relating  to regulation  of underground  injection under                                                               
the  federal  Safe  Drinking  Water Act;  and  providing  for  an                                                               
effective date."                                                                                                                
     MOVED SB 103 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                              
SENATE BILL NO. 110                                                                                                             
"An Act  relating to  regulation of  the discharge  of pollutants                                                               
under the  National Pollutant  Discharge Elimination  System; and                                                               
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
     MOVED SB 110 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                              
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 76(FIN) am                                                                                                
"An Act  relating to the  Big Game Commercial Services  Board and                                                               
to   the   regulation   of  big   game   hunting   services   and                                                               
transportation services; and providing for an effective date."                                                                  
     MOVED CSHB 76(FIN) am OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 2                                                                                               
Urging  Governor  Murkowski  to  take quick  action  to  conduct,                                                               
approve, or  sanction a study  of in-state natural gas  needs and                                                               
take-off points for intrastate use  of natural gas transported in                                                               
a North Slope natural gas pipeline.                                                                                             
     MOVED HCR 2 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                               
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
BILL: SB 103                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: OIL & GAS: REG. OF UNDERGROUND INJECTION                                                                           
SPONSOR(s): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR                                                                                    
02/14/05       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/14/05       (S)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
02/28/05       (S)       RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
02/28/05       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/28/05       (S)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
03/07/05       (S)       RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
BILL: SB 110                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: POLLUTION DISCHARGE & WASTE TRMT/DISPOSAL                                                                          
SPONSOR(s): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR                                                                                    
02/16/05       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/16/05       (S)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
03/02/05       (S)       RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
03/02/05       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
03/02/05       (S)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
03/07/05       (S)       RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
BILL: HB  76                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: BIG GAME SERVICES & COMM. SERVICES BD                                                                              
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) SAMUELS                                                                                           
01/18/05       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
01/18/05       (H)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
02/02/05       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                             
02/02/05       (H)       Moved Out of Committee                                                                                 
02/02/05       (H)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
02/04/05       (H)       RES RPT 8DP                                                                                            
02/04/05       (H)       DP: GATTO, KAPSNER, OLSON, ELKINS,                                                                     
                         SEATON, LEDOUX, RAMRAS, SAMUELS                                                                        
02/09/05       (H)       FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519                                                                       
02/09/05       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/09/05       (H)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
02/10/05       (H)       FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519                                                                       
02/10/05       (H)       Moved CSHB 76(FIN) Out of Committee                                                                    
02/10/05       (H)       MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                            
02/11/05       (H)       FIN RPT CS(FIN) 3DP 5NR                                                                                
02/11/05       (H)       DP: HOLM, WEYHRAUCH, JOULE;                                                                            
02/11/05       (H)       NR: STOLTZE, HAWKER, MOSES, KELLY,                                                                     
03/02/05       (H)       TRANSMITTED TO (S)                                                                                     
03/02/05       (H)       VERSION: CSHB 76(FIN) AM                                                                               
03/03/05       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
03/03/05       (S)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
03/07/05       (S)       RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
BILL: HCR  2                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: IN-STATE NATURAL GAS NEEDS                                                                                         
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) SAMUELS                                                                                           
02/18/05       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/18/05       (H)       RES                                                                                                    
02/23/05       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                             
02/23/05       (H)       Moved Out of Committee                                                                                 
02/23/05       (H)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
02/24/05       (H)       RES RPT 7DP                                                                                            
02/24/05       (H)       DP: OLSON, KAPSNER, SEATON, ELKINS,                                                                    
                         LEDOUX, RAMRAS, SAMUELS                                                                                
02/25/05       (H)       TRANSMITTED TO (S)                                                                                     
02/25/05       (H)       VERSION: HCR  2                                                                                        
02/28/05       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/28/05       (S)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
03/07/05       (S)       RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
DAN EASTON, Director                                                                                                            
Division of Water                                                                                                               
Department of Environmental Conservation                                                                                        
410 Willoughby                                                                                                                  
Juneau, AK 99801-1795                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 110.                                                                                         
CAM LEONARD                                                                                                                     
PO Box 110300                                                                                                                   
Juneau, AK  99811-0300                                                                                                          
Department of Law                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions about SB 110.                                                                          
MATT ROBUS, Director                                                                                                            
Division of Wildlife Conservation                                                                                               
Department of Fish & Game                                                                                                       
PO Box 25526                                                                                                                    
Juneau, AK  99802-5226                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 76.                                                                                          
PAUL JOHNSON, Registered Guide                                                                                                  
Elfin Cove AK                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 76.                                                                                          
RICK THOMPSON, Regional Manager                                                                                                 
Division of Mining, Land and Water                                                                                            
Department of Natural Resources                                                                                                 
400 Willoughby Ave.                                                                                                             
Juneau, AK  99801-1724                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 76.                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH SAMUELS                                                                                                    
Alaska State Capitol                                                                                                            
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 76 HCR 2.                                                                                   
HAROLD HEINZE, CEO                                                                                                              
Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority (ANGDA)                                                                                
Anchorage AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HCR 2.                                                                                         
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
CHAIR  THOMAS  WAGONER  called   the  Senate  Resources  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting to  order at 3:37:01 PM.  Present were Senators                                                             
Stedman, Elton,  Dyson, Ben Stevens,  Seekins and  Chair Wagoner.                                                               
Senator Guess arrived at 3:38.                                                                                                  
        SB 103-OIL & GAS: REG. OF UNDERGROUND INJECTION                                                                     
CHAIR   THOMAS  WAGONER   announced   SB  103   to   be  up   for                                                               
consideration. In  the last  meeting there  was a  question about                                                               
class 1  wells and  a letter  of intent  was prepared  that would                                                               
accompany the bill.                                                                                                             
SENATOR RALPH SEEKINS moved to  attach the draft letter of intent                                                               
to SB 103.                                                                                                                      
SENATOR ELTON objected briefly to find the letter in his packet.                                                                
3:38:45 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR GUESS joined the committee.                                                                                             
CHAIR WAGONER announced there were  no further objections and the                                                               
letter of intent was adopted.                                                                                                   
SENATOR  SEEKINS moved  to pass  SB 103  with attached  letter of                                                               
intent  from  committee   with  individual  recommendations,  and                                                               
attached fiscal  notes. There  were no objections  and it  was so                                                               
3:39:53 PM At Ease 3:42:02 PM                                                                                               
        SB 110-POLLUTION DISCHARGE & WASTE TRMT/DISPOSAL                                                                    
CHAIR   THOMAS  WAGONER   announced   SB  110   to   be  up   for                                                               
consideration. Additional  information was requested at  the last                                                               
meeting and it has been  received. He personally had reservations                                                               
when  it costs  the state  $1.2 million  to take  over a  federal                                                               
program because it saves a little time.                                                                                         
3:43:12 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR ELTON agreed  with him about the  financial liability and                                                               
recalled that the Department  of Environmental Conservation (DEC)                                                               
recently eliminated  the Hazardous Waste Program  for communities                                                               
in  Southeast Alaska  that  cost only  $20,000  and involved  one                                                               
employee  for 30  hours. That  is just  a small  fraction of  the                                                               
fiscal  note  for  SB  110  with the  addition  of  13  full-time                                                               
employees. He  has heartburn  with a decision  that leads  to the                                                               
elimination of a $20,000 program  that served communities well -r                                                               
that they  protested against eliminating  - and then  incurring a                                                               
liability of $1.2 million on the NPDES.                                                                                         
The other part  of the bill he  didn't like was on  page 5, lines                                                               
12  -  14. The  implication  is  that  after the  public  hearing                                                               
process, state  staff can  still discuss  permit issues  with the                                                               
applicant. This would  assume the staff and  permit applicant can                                                               
make changes  and not have to  go back to a  public process. When                                                               
he  asked DEC  about it,  he didn't  get an  answer. But  when he                                                               
asked  if the  public  hearing process  envisioned  in this  bill                                                               
would contribute to saving time, the answer was no.                                                                             
He wanted to  know whether or not DEC  envisioned that conditions                                                               
of  a  permit can  be  changed  subsequent  to a  public  hearing                                                               
without  going back  to another  public hearing  - so  the public                                                               
knows what those changes were.                                                                                                  
DAN   EASTON,  Director,   Division  of   Water,  Department   of                                                               
Environmental  Conservation (DEC),  replied yes  to his  question                                                               
about  not having  to  go  back to  public  notice after  certain                                                               
limited changes  are made.  After the  public comment  period has                                                               
closed, he  would post the permit  on the web and  provide copies                                                               
of  the  proposed final  to  the  applicant  and to  others  that                                                               
commented on  the draft permit as  well as to the  EPA. "So, it's                                                               
not  exclusively  to the  applicant,  but  it's to  a  restricted                                                               
3:47:13 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR ELTON asked if there is a precedent in his department.                                                                  
MR. EASTON replied no.                                                                                                          
SENATOR  SEEKINS asked  Senator Elton  if he  didn't think  final                                                               
terms should be worked out at the end.                                                                                          
SENATOR ELTON responded:                                                                                                        
     No.... What  this appears to  me is it appears  to give                                                                    
     the  permit applicant  special  access  to the  process                                                                    
     after the  public hearing process.  It notes  only that                                                                    
     the person who  applies for a permit  under the program                                                                    
     has  the opportunity  to review  the  final permit.  It                                                                    
     doesn't say  permit applicant, public or  other parties                                                                    
     who may or may not have testified.                                                                                         
3:52:29 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  GUESS, in  reference to  lines 12  through 14,  asked if                                                               
changes are  made, would those be  put back on the  web so people                                                               
can see the changes to the final permit.                                                                                        
MR. EASTON  replied that  it would  depend on  the nature  of the                                                               
changes.  Substantial  changes now  have  to  go back  to  public                                                               
notice. This provision in the  bill is intended to address errors                                                               
and  omissions.   He  explained  that  that   situation  happened                                                               
recently and  the only  remedy for the  mistake was  a full-blown                                                               
modification to the permit.                                                                                                     
SENATOR  GUESS asked  if the  intent  is to  open public  comment                                                               
again for substantial changes.                                                                                                  
MR. EASTON replied yes, that standard doesn't change.                                                                           
SENATOR ELTON said that other  people beside the permit applicant                                                               
might have  an interest,  like a  neighborhood. It  seems strange                                                               
that the  federal government, other  states and even  our state's                                                               
other  departments don't  do  this  and he  asked  how are  other                                                               
permit  errors are  dealt with.  "Do you  go back  and start  the                                                               
process  over  again?   It  seems  to  me  that   this  could  be                                                               
3:54:54 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR WAGONER summarized  that he heard Mr. Easton  say that they                                                               
could meet  to correct minor  errors and omissions.  For anything                                                               
major, the department has a public hearing process.                                                                             
MR. EASTON agreed that was right.                                                                                               
SENATOR  ELTON   asked  what  provision   of  law   requires  the                                                               
department to go back to the public process.                                                                                    
CAM  LEONARD,  Assistant  Attorney General,  Department  of  Law,                                                               
answered that  case law has  been developed in court,  both state                                                               
and federal, although,  "It's not as bright a line  as some of us                                                               
might wish."  Basically, if  the changes made  to a  draft permit                                                               
are the  logical outgrowth of  what was originally  proposed, the                                                               
department doesn't  have to go  out to  a public notice.  But, if                                                               
it's something  unforeseen, the  law requires  a second  round of                                                               
public notice. It's a test that is in case law, not in statute.                                                                 
SENATOR  SEEKINS  moved  to  pass  SB  110  from  committee  with                                                               
individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes.                                                                           
SENATOR  ELTON  objected  and  suggested  somewhere  through  the                                                               
committee process adding language on line 12 that says:                                                                         
     A person who applies for  a permit under the program or                                                                    
     an  interested party  who  participated  in the  public                                                                    
     hearing  sessions  has  an opportunity  to  review  the                                                                    
     final draft permit prior to it being issued.                                                                               
That expands the number of  interested parties who have the post-                                                               
public hearing opportunity.  He didn't expect an  answer now, but                                                               
asked for one  before the bill gets to the  floor and removed his                                                               
objection. There being  no further objections, SB  110 moved from                                                               
3:58:36 PM At ease 3:59:53 PM                                                                                               
     CSHB  76(FIN)AM-BIG GAME SERVICES & COMM. SERVICES BD                                                                  
CHAIR  THOMAS  WAGONER announced  CSHB  76(FIN)AM  to be  up  for                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH SAMUELS, sponsor,  said it reestablishes the                                                               
Big Game  Commercial Services Board.  The former  board sunsetted                                                               
in the early 90s and its  duties were transferred to the Division                                                               
of Occupational Licensing.                                                                                                      
A Legislative Budget and Audit  report recommended that the board                                                               
be  reestablished  for consumer  protection  and  to set  ethical                                                               
standards for guides. This is supported  by the Board of Game and                                                               
Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G) and various user groups.                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS reviewed  the  changes  from last  year's                                                               
bill that didn't pass.                                                                                                          
4:01:45 PM                                                                                                                    
Board  membership went  from two  guides,  two transporters,  one                                                               
member appointed  by the Board  of Game, one private  land holder                                                               
and one public member to  two guides, two transporters, one Board                                                               
of  Game  appointee, two  private  land  holders and  two  public                                                               
members. The thinking  behind that is there  is inherent conflict                                                               
between  the  transporters  and the  guides.  The  second  change                                                               
requires the  board to issue a  license to someone who  meets the                                                               
standards.  Also, the  original bill  had  a $1,000  fine in  the                                                               
previous 12  months would have  precluded someone  from receiving                                                               
or renewing a  guide or transport license and  that was increased                                                               
to $2,000 -  with the support of the Department  of Public Safety                                                               
4:03:13 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  GUESS asked  if  this  was the  same  membership as  the                                                               
previous group that was sunsetted.                                                                                              
4:03:44 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied  that he didn't know,  but the old                                                               
board had  the perception that  it was a bit  of a good  old boys                                                               
club. "If you knew somebody, you got certain privileges."                                                                       
4:04:28 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  GUESS said  she didn't  see wildlife  biologists in  the                                                               
board and asked if they would come under public members.                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  replied the  Board of Game  would appoint                                                               
one member and  that might be a biologist or  a professional game                                                               
4:05:09 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR SEEKINS asked the definition of private landholder.                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS   replied  that  probably   means  Native                                                               
Corporations with large tracts of land.                                                                                         
SENATOR  STEDMAN   said  he  thought  it   included  all  private                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied that it does.                                                                                    
CHAIR WAGONER asked  Mr. Robus if he could  answer Senator Guess'                                                               
4:06:59 PM                                                                                                                    
MATT ROBUS, Director, Division  of Wildlife Conservation, replied                                                               
that  even  thought  wildlife  biologists  are  talked  about  as                                                               
advocating  for the  reinstitution  of the  board,  they are  not                                                               
actually included in the specification of  who gets to sit on the                                                               
4:07:45 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR GUESS  responded that she  wanted to know how  this board                                                               
is different in its membership from the old one that sunsetted.                                                                 
4:07:56 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  ROBUS replied  that  it's  not much  different.  One of  the                                                               
reasons   he  and   the  Board   of  Game   are  advocating   for                                                               
reinstituting  the Commercial  Services Board  is because  it's a                                                               
complement to  the biological  work that the  Board of  Game does                                                               
with  input from  ADF&G. Without  it, the  component of  wildlife                                                               
management  that  has  to do  with  people  management  presented                                                               
problems  that the  board doesn't  have  the tools  to solve.  It                                                               
provides a  needed function.  Problems came  up that  couldn't be                                                               
addressed  by altering  bag  limits and  seasons  et cetera.  The                                                               
department and Board of Game both supported HB 76.                                                                              
PAUL JOHNSON, Elfin Cove guide, supported  HB 76. He said lots of                                                               
things are falling  through the cracks without the  old board. To                                                               
Senator Guess' question he said  the prior board had nine members                                                               
-  two   guides,  two  transporters,  two   public  members,  one                                                               
commercial user,  one private  landholder and  one Board  of Game                                                               
member.  The board  did not  take  up biological  issues and  the                                                               
Board of Game member was a great liaison between the two boards.                                                                
4:11:23 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR SEEKINS asked how long he had been guiding.                                                                             
MR. JOHNSON replied 30 years.                                                                                                   
SENATOR SEEKINS asked when exclusive guides areas went away.                                                                    
MR.  JOHNSON  replied  that  they  went away  in  1991  with  the                                                               
Owsichek decision.                                                                                                              
SENATOR SEEKINS asked if there  are de facto reserved guide areas                                                               
in  effect by  landowners  who have  contracted exclusively  with                                                               
certain guides.                                                                                                                 
MR. JOHNSON replied yes. He said  there are large tracts of prime                                                               
federal  lands  that  the  National  Park  System,  US  Fish  and                                                               
Wildlife  and  US  Forest  Service   have  contracted  through  a                                                               
concession process. Prior  to Owsichek, once you had  a use area,                                                               
you had it  forever. That's why they called it  the good old boys                                                               
club. A  task force  put together that  eliminated the  old guide                                                               
board  and created  the  Commercial Services  Board,  but in  the                                                               
middle of that process the  Owsichek decision came down. The feds                                                               
hoped  the state  would pick  up the  ball as  they have  done on                                                               
their lands.                                                                                                                    
SENATOR SEEKINS asked from a  guide's perspective, if there could                                                               
be some ethical concerns between  private landowners who contract                                                               
with  exclusive  guides. He  asked  if  he  saw any  conflict  of                                                               
interest there.                                                                                                                 
MR. JOHNSON replied he was the  chair of the former board and the                                                               
private landholders were more concerned  with how they were going                                                               
to get their companies involved  with their local people and with                                                               
just two guide members on the  board he didn't foresee that being                                                               
a problem. However,  he could see major benefits to  the state as                                                               
a  whole in  getting  those private  landholders into  commercial                                                               
utilization of the game if they choose.                                                                                         
     I think  the more  they learn  about the  industry, the                                                                    
     more they  may so  choose. It's  been a  very effective                                                                    
     process in  Canada, in Africa  and obviously  our state                                                                    
     is competing with those other countries.                                                                                   
4:15:29 PM                                                                                                                    
RICK  THOMPSON, Regional  Manager, Division  of Mining,  Land and                                                               
Water, Department of Natural Resources (DNR), supported HB 76.                                                                  
4:16:13 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  BEN   STEVENS  moved  CSHB  76(FIN)AM   with  individual                                                               
recommendations  and   attached  fiscal   note.  There   were  no                                                               
objections and it was so ordered.                                                                                               
4:16:53 PM At ease  4:17:55 PM                                                                                              
               HCR  2-IN-STATE NATURAL GAS NEEDS                                                                            
CHAIR WAGONER announced HCR 2 to be up for consideration.                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH  SAMUELS said  this resolution  simply urges                                                               
the Governor to move quickly on  the gas needs study that must be                                                               
done before an open season can happen.                                                                                          
SENATOR  SEEKINS  moved  to  pass   HCR  2  from  committee  with                                                               
individual recommendations  and attached zero fiscal  note. There                                                               
were no objections and it was so ordered.                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS said he welcomed cross sponsors.                                                                         
          HB  76-BIG GAME SERVICES & COMM. SERVICES BD                                                                      
SENATOR DYSON  declared that he  may have a conflict  of interest                                                               
with HB 76.                                                                                                                     
               HCR  2-IN-STATE NATURAL GAS NEEDS                                                                            
HAROLD  HEINZE, CEO,  Alaska  Natural  Gas Development  Authority                                                               
(ANGDA), supported  HCR 2.  He thought it  was important  for the                                                               
state to continue the momentum  that had been started through the                                                               
first hearing process.                                                                                                          
There  were no  questions and  there was  no further  business to                                                               
come  before  the  committee  and  CHAIR  WAGONER  adjourned  the                                                               
meeting at 4:23:02 PM.                                                                                                        

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