Legislature(2001 - 2002)

02/21/2001 03:35 PM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                     ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                   
                    SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE                                                                                
                         February 21, 2001                                                                                      
                             3:35 p.m.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator John Torgerson, Chair                                                                                                   
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chair                                                                                                 
Senator Pete Kelly                                                                                                              
Senator Robin Taylor                                                                                                            
Senator Kim Elton                                                                                                               
Senator Georgianna Lincoln                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Rick Halford                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 77                                                                                                              
"An  Act repealing  the exception  that  applies  to collection  and                                                            
payment of interest  of $150 or less on royalty or  net profit share                                                            
underpayments  and  overpayments;  and providing  for  an  effective                                                            
date."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     MOVED SB 77 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 7(RES)                                                                                        
Urging the United States Congress to pass legislation to open the                                                               
coastal plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, Alaska, to                                                                
oil and gas exploration, development, and production.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     MOVED CS HJR 7(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SB 77 - No previous action to consider.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
HJR 7 - No previous action to consider.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                              
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Darwin Peterson                                                                                                             
Staff to Senator Torgerson                                                                                                      
State Capitol Bldg.                                                                                                             
Juneau AK 99811                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:  Commented on SB 77.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Mark Meyers, Director                                                                                                       
Division of Oil and Gas                                                                                                         
Department of Natural Resources                                                                                                 
550 W 7th, Ste 800                                                                                                              
Anchorage AK 99501                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported SB 77.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Representative Beverly Masek                                                                                                    
State Capitol Bldg.                                                                                                             
Juneau AK 99811                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:  Sponsor of HJR 7.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Ed Grasser                                                                                                                  
Staff to Representative Masek                                                                                                   
State Capitol Bldg.                                                                                                             
Juneau AK 99811                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HJR 7.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. John Schoen                                                                                                                 
Audubon Alaska                                                                                                                  
308 G St, #217                                                                                                                  
Anchorage AK 99501                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT:  Commented on HJR 7.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Adeline Raboff                                                                                                              
No address provided                                                                                                             
Fairbanks AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed HJR 7.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Sue Schrader                                                                                                                
Alaska Conservation Voters                                                                                                      
Alaska Conservation Alliance                                                                                                    
P.O. Box 22151                                                                                                                  
Juneau AK 99802                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed HJR 7.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 01-15, SIDE A                                                                                                            
Number 001                                                                                                                      
            SB  77-NET PROFIT SHARE UNDER/OVERPAYMENTS                                                                      
                                                                                                                              
CHAIRMAN JOHN TORGERSON called the Senate Resources Committee                                                                 
meeting to order at 3:35 p.m. and announced SB 77 to be up for                                                                  
consideration.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. DARWIN PETERSON, Staff to Senator Torgerson, sponsor, said,                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     In  1998,   the  Legislature   enacted  AS  38.05/135(g),                                                                  
     exempting   the  Department  of  Natural  Resources   from                                                                 
     calculating  interest  on small over  or underpayments  of                                                                 
     royalty  if the  interest  is $150  or less.  The cost  of                                                                 
     calculating  these small over/underpayments was  more than                                                                 
     the interest  received or credit  applied. Prior to  1998,                                                                 
     DNR  was calculating  these small payments  manually.  For                                                                 
     the  12  months  prior  to October  31m  2000,  the  state                                                                 
     processed  1716  royalty filings  where  interest amounts                                                                  
     were between a negative  $150 and a positive $150. The net                                                                 
     amount of these under/overpayments  was a positive $4,096.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     The  effort  of  calculating,   processing  and  tracking                                                                  
     interest   for  small  under/overpayments  was   not  cost                                                                 
     effective for either oil  companies or the state. With the                                                                 
     advent of  the state's new Oil and Gas Royalty  Accounting                                                                 
     system, all  interest is calculated electronically.  Also,                                                                 
     most royalty  payers are using mainframe computer  systems                                                                 
     and  sending their  royalty  reports  electronically.  The                                                                 
     failure  to  repeal  AS  38.05.135(g)  would  require  the                                                                 
     Department and royalty payers  to reprogram their computer                                                                 
     systems to  not compute under or overpayments  of interest                                                                 
     less than $150.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     The  sophisticated computer  systems used  by the royalty                                                                  
     payers and  the state are now able to quickly  compute the                                                                 
     interest owed  on even the smallest under or overpayment.                                                                  
     All  the   royalty  payments   are  automatically  summed                                                                  
     together  and one wire transfer  is used for payment.  The                                                                 
     repeal  of AS 38.05.135(g) will  solve the problem of  the                                                                 
     administrative  burden on the  part of the royalty payers                                                                  
     and  the state  to manually  track very  small amounts  of                                                                 
     interest.  It  is  an  unnecessary  expense  to reprogram                                                                  
     computer systems to handle  separate interest calculations                                                                 
     for  these small amounts  of interest,  especially when  a                                                                 
     much easier option is available.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARK MEYERS, Director,  Division of Oil and Gas, supported SB 77                                                            
because it provides a more  complete and accurate answer and involve                                                            
less  work and  it  will be  revenue  neutral in  the  long run.  He                                                            
thought the lessees would support the bill as well.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON noted the committee had a letter of support from                                                             
Mr. Geoffrey Stein, Associate General Tax Counsel, BP.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE moved to pass SB 77 from committee with the                                                                      
accompanying fiscal note and individual recommendations. There were                                                             
no objections and it was so ordered.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
                   HJR  7-ENDORSING ANWR LEASING                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON announced HJR 7 to be up for consideration.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK, sponsor, said:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Opening the  coastal plain to oil and gas exploration  and                                                                 
     development   is supported   by  a majority   of Alaskans                                                                  
     including  those who live close to the coastal  plain. One                                                                 
     of the  leading arguments made  against opening ANWR  that                                                                 
     is  made by  environmental  preservationists  concern  the                                                                 
     health  of the Porcupine  Caribou herd.  Records indicate                                                                  
     that  concern  may be  overstated  as the  Central Arctic                                                                  
     Caribou  herd has prospered since  development at Prudhoe                                                                  
     Bay  has taken place.  Furthermore,  most biologists  have                                                                 
     not  offered any  conclusions  that development  would  be                                                                 
     detrimental.   That  herd  has  survived  development   at                                                                 
     Prudhoe Bay, but it has grown since it was opened.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MASEK   said  that  production  at  Prudhoe  Bay  is                                                            
declining and  ANWR might represent  our best opportunity  to locate                                                            
and recover  sizeable reserves  of oil. It  is in our financial  and                                                            
best interest  as a  state to  provide opportunities  to extend  oil                                                            
production and use of the existing infrastructure.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     It has been said that reserves  we locate in ANWR may only                                                                 
     provide six months of oil  given America's current rate of                                                                 
     consumption. Alaskans should  not look at this opportunity                                                                 
     that way. A discovery in  ANWR would provide years of good                                                                 
     jobs  for  Alaskan and  it  would insure  that  the  state                                                                 
     treasury  continues  to receive  oil revenues  for a  much                                                                 
     longer period. Both jobs  and state revenues are something                                                                 
     that other industries cannot  replace, at least not at the                                                                 
     current  levels provided  by  the oil industry.  With  the                                                                 
     election  of  President  Bush  and  continued  control  of                                                                 
     Congress by Republicans,  Alaska has its best chance right                                                                 
     now to  persuade the federal  government and the American                                                                  
     public to  open ANWR. With the energy problems  California                                                                 
     is experiencing  along with the  increase in energy  costs                                                                 
     across the nation over the  past year, Alaska has a window                                                                 
     of  opportunity  to  convince  the  American  public  that                                                                 
     exploration  and  development  in  ANWR  would be  in  the                                                                 
     nation's best interests.  We should take advantage of that                                                                 
     opportunity.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN said her  district covers Arctic Village and Venetie                                                            
where the Porcupine  Caribou herd  is part of their life.  They have                                                            
been consistent  with their  concern for the  core area for  calving                                                            
and  that they  might  move  from there.  She  asked how  she  would                                                            
respond to those concerns.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MASEK  said  her  point  was valid,  but  since  the                                                            
pipeline  opened  over  20  years  ago, the  caribou  herd  has  and                                                            
continues  to prosper.  Biologist are  saying that  the pipeline  is                                                            
good in  that area, because  in some cases  the caribou go to  it to                                                            
get in the  shade and in  some cases they  go up on the gravel  beds                                                            
where there  is a wind and they can  get away from the bugs.  She is                                                            
under the impression  the Gwich'in  people have applied for  permits                                                            
in the past  around Kaktovik  and they did  not find any oil,  so it                                                            
seems a contradiction  if they are saying the caribou  are not being                                                            
protected. If they had  found oil, they would have developed it. "If                                                            
the  caribou herd  was  in decline,  we  would have  to  look at  it                                                            
differently."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN  said that Arctic Village and Venetie  never applied                                                            
for any oil exploration  for themselves. She has also  witnessed the                                                            
caribou under  the pipeline and the buildings, but  she can't get to                                                            
them there.  She didn't know if their  migration had changed  due to                                                            
the pipeline.  She is very  concerned for  the migration pattern  of                                                            
this Porcupine  Caribou herd. Her  mother told her when she  grew up                                                            
in  Rampart that  you could  almost  walk across  the  backs of  the                                                            
caribou that  were bank to bank in  the Yukon River that  went right                                                            
through their  village. In her lifetime,  Senator Lincoln  said, she                                                            
hadn't seen those caribou  at all, although she has heard there is a                                                            
herd of about 25 that is 30 miles below Rampart.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN  appreciated the improvements  in HJR 7 recognizing                                                             
how much her  villages depend on the  caribou for their livelihood,                                                             
but she could  not support it because  of just knowing the  area and                                                            
how much it  could possibly have a  negative affect on the  lives of                                                            
the people there.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   MASEK  responded   that   she  understood   Senator                                                            
Lincoln's concerns  and she also thought protecting  the animals was                                                            
important. There were a  lot of moose in the area she grew up in and                                                            
couldn't say  the oil effected them.  She pointed out that  a number                                                            
of Senator  Lincoln's constituents  work for  the oil companies  and                                                            
she is on  the Doyon Board  which has a  drilling rig on the  Slope.                                                            
Opening  up   ANWR  would  open  up   more  possibilities   for  her                                                            
constituents.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1100                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  TORGERSON  asked why  there  was a  "no more  clause."  He                                                            
thought it  might cloud the issue  as well as the 9010 part  telling                                                            
Congress we might be coerced  into accepting something we don't want                                                            
to.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MASEK replied that  issue had been discussed  in the                                                            
House Resource  Committee and she  felt it was an important  message                                                            
to send to Congress.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON  replied that he didn't disagree,  but he thought                                                            
it might  cloud the  main message,  which  is to open  up ANWR.  The                                                            
resolution gets into wilderness  areas, the no more clauses, and the                                                            
9010.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MASEK said  she didn't know  if it would get  to the                                                            
Delegation  in time to deliver  it to the  Energy Council before  it                                                            
met in D.C. if they would start changing it.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR noted that  on the bottom of page 2 she addresses the                                                            
concerns of the  Porcupine Caribou herd, but on page  3, line 12 the                                                            
same thing is restated  and is coupled with the concept of using the                                                            
state's workforce to the  maximum extent possible. It seemed like an                                                            
odd combining of the two.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. ED GRASSER,  staff to Representative Masek, explained  that to a                                                            
large extent  this was the  same resolution  that passed last  year,                                                            
although the House changed  parts of it. One "whereas" was taken out                                                            
because it was no longer timely.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  TAYLOR noted  that back in  the 70's  everyone thought  the                                                            
Central Arctic  Caribou herd would be hurt by the  pipeline, but all                                                            
the statistics  he has heard say that  herd is 7 to 9 times  greater                                                            
today since the building  of the pipeline. He asked if there was any                                                            
factual basis  for the concerns that  have been expressed  about the                                                            
Porcupine Caribou herd.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GRASSER replied  that  he had  discussed  that  issue with  Pat                                                            
Volcanberg,  ADF&G who said that the  normal rule of thumb  has been                                                            
to err on the side of caution  if you don't have scientific data. It                                                            
appears that most  caribou herds throughout Alaska  would be able to                                                            
sustain the  development in ANWR because  they traditionally  change                                                            
their migration routes. However, biologists just aren't sure.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  TAYLOR  said  he  wasn't  questioning  the  validity  of  a                                                            
concern.  He was questioning  the basis for  it. There must  be some                                                            
basis  for it  in fact.  He  thought  evidence in  the  form of  the                                                            
Central Arctic  Caribou herd actually increasing 7  to 9 times after                                                            
the pipeline was built would indicate that the facts are that if                                                                
you build another pipeline, you will probably help the caribou in                                                               
that area, not hurt them.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRASSER said he wasn't aware of any evidence.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELTON said he thought it was interesting that as part of                                                                
the packet there were two documents; one was an overview by Ken                                                                 
Whitten, retired ADF&G Research Biologist, which noted:                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     The Porcupine Caribou herd  far exceeds the Central Arctic                                                                 
     herd in importance as a  regional subsistence resource and                                                                 
     the preferred coastal plain  habitats in the Arctic Refuge                                                                 
     are  much narrower than  the range of  the Central Arctic                                                                  
     herd  and the  disturbances  so  far have  only displaced                                                                  
     Central   Arctic   caribou   and   other   coastal   plain                                                                 
     inhabitants  - a few predators.  But if a similar special                                                                  
     displacement,   and  he acknowledges   that  there  was  a                                                                 
     displacement  of  the  Central Arctic  herd,  which  would                                                                 
     occur  in the Arctic  Refuge, caribou  would be driven  to                                                                 
     foothills  and  mountains  with  more abundant  predators                                                                  
     and/or  lower quality forage  and consequently, that  herd                                                                 
     may  not fare  as well  as the  Central Arctic  herd  did,                                                                 
     apparently.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELTON pointed out another document from some biologists,                                                                
both active and inactive. He thought it was clear there is some                                                                 
dispute about what might happen.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. JOHN SCHOEN, senior scientist, Audubon Alaska, said prior to                                                                
working for Audubon, he spent 20 years as a wildlife biologist                                                                  
for the ADF&G. While there, he supervised research work on ANWR                                                                 
in 1989 and 90, including work by Ken Whitten. He serve as an                                                                   
affiliate professor of wildlife biology at UAA.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHOEN urged caution regarding oil development and its                                                                      
effects on the wildlife and wilderness within the coastal plain                                                                 
of ANWR saying:                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     The Refuge  is the United States'  only conservation  unit                                                                 
     that  encompasses  an intact  arctic ecosystem.  In  1960,                                                                 
     when  the  original Arctic  National  Wildlife  Range  was                                                                 
     established,  the purposes for its establishment  were for                                                                 
     preserving  the  areas  unique  wildlife,  wilderness  and                                                                 
     recreation values.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHOEN read an excerpt of a letter signed by over 250 North                                                                 
American scientists including 60 Alaskan scientists regarding the                                                               
Arctic Refuge:                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Five decades  of biological study and scientific  research                                                                 
     has confirmed that the coastal  plain of the Arctic Refuge                                                                 
     forms  a vital component  of the biological  diversity  of                                                                 
     the  Refuge   and  merits  the  same  kind  of  permanent                                                                  
     safeguards  and precautionary  management  as the rest  of                                                                 
     the original conservation  units. In contrast to the broad                                                                 
     coastal  plain  to the  west,  the coastal  plain  in  the                                                                 
     Refuge is much narrower,  from 15 - 40 miles to the Brooks                                                                 
     Range.  This unique  compression of  habitat concentrates                                                                  
     the  occurrence of a  wide variety  of species, including                                                                  
     polar bears,  grizzly bears, wolves, caribou,  musk ox and                                                                 
     more than 130 migratory  birds. The coastal plain provides                                                                 
     essential   calving  and  post-calving   habitat  to   the                                                                 
     Porcupine Caribou herd.  The Gwich'in Nation of Alaska and                                                                 
     Canada  depends  upon the  sustained productivity  of  the                                                                 
     Porcupine   herd  and  are  justifiably  concerned   about                                                                 
     security.  Extensive research  on the Central Arctic  herd                                                                 
     at  Prudhoe Bay indicates  that there  have, indeed,  been                                                                 
     appreciable   losses  of  preferred  calving  and  summer                                                                  
     habitats in response to petroleum development.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHOEN continued:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Biologists  have  also identified  conservation  concerns                                                                  
     with  other  wildlife  populations  in the  Arctic Refuge                                                                  
     including polar bears, musk  oxen and snow geese. Based on                                                                 
     our  collective   experience  and  understanding   of  the                                                                 
     cumulative   affects  of  oil  and  gas  exploration   and                                                                 
     development  on Alaska's  North Slope,  we do not believe                                                                  
     the  impacts  have  been  adequately  considered  for  the                                                                 
     Arctic  Refuge and  mitigation  without adequate  data  on                                                                 
     this complex ecosystem is unlikely.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHOEN added that they  do not think this issue is just a simple                                                            
issue of  mitigating impacts  to caribou,  but it's  more a  fact of                                                            
safeguarding   the  entire  ecological   integrity  of  the   Refuge                                                            
including the  coastal plain, which is largely the  biological heart                                                            
of the Refuge. He agreed  with others that there is a high degree of                                                            
uncertainty and a need for precautionary measures.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1800                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  PEARCE  said the  Porcupine  Caribou  herd had  been  under                                                            
minute research  for quite  a few years in  terms of calving  areas.                                                            
Calving  did not  always  take place  in the  heart  of the  calving                                                            
grounds in  the 1002 area, rather,  in some years the snow  was deep                                                            
and the  calving took place  further up the  mountain. She  asked if                                                            
there was research  that the sustained productivity  of the herd was                                                            
less in those years.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHOEN replied that  he thought there were only two out of the 8                                                            
to 10 closely monitored  years that the Porcupine herd did not calve                                                            
in the "core calving area"  within the 1002 area. There are concerns                                                            
that if they  go further up the foothills,  they're in an  area that                                                            
won't provide  as valuable  or nutritious  forage  and that area  is                                                            
more prone to  higher density of predators, including  grizzly bears                                                            
and wolves.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PEARCE  said she thought there were more than  two years out                                                            
of 10 that the primary  calving was not in that core area and didn't                                                            
think  there was  any scientific  research  showing  there was  less                                                            
sustained  productivity in  those years. She  noted that the  letter                                                            
Mr. Schoen  referenced was  based on research  that was done  before                                                            
1991 and  does not  include some of  90's when  some of the  calving                                                            
happened outside of the core area.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON commented  that the Canadian Gwich'in argument is                                                            
starting  to carry less weight  with him when  they are starting  to                                                            
sell drilling rights on their land and building pipelines.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADELINE RABOFF,  Fairbanks, said she was born  and raised in the                                                            
Arctic  village  of  Fort  Yukon.  She  does  not  agree  with  this                                                            
resolution  at  all.  She  wanted   to  see  ANWR  maintained  as  a                                                            
wilderness.  Any  development  there  would be  detrimental  to  the                                                            
wildlife.  She mentioned  that persistent  pollutants contribute  to                                                            
global warming  and are detrimental to fish and waterfowl,  as well.                                                            
A lot  of water would  be taken  from the lakes  and rivers  causing                                                            
more impacts.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN asked her  if the Porcupine Caribou herd changed its                                                            
migratory patterns  or something happened in the core  calving area,                                                            
what would be the impact upon Arctic Village and Venetie.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. RABOFF answered  that it would probably create  a real hardship.                                                            
In  approximately  1950,  the  Porcupine  Caribou  herd was  in  the                                                            
Sheenjek Valley and all the calves died. [indisc.]                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS.   SUE  SCHRADER,   Alaska   Conservation   Voters   and   Alaska                                                            
Conservation    Alliance,   said   they   are   sister,    nonprofit                                                            
organizations  dedicated to protecting Alaska's environment  through                                                            
public   education  and   advocacy.  They   represent  over   35,000                                                            
registered  Alaskan voters.  Their  members are  concerned with  the                                                            
energy distribution  problems going on in California  and the effect                                                            
they  are having  on  the national  economy,  but they  don't  think                                                            
opening  ANWR to  exploration  and  drilling is  the  answer to  the                                                            
current situation.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHRADER  reminded  the committee  that there  are thousands  of                                                            
Alaskans who  are joined by hundreds  of thousands of Americans  and                                                            
they are all opposed  to opening the Refuge. They  have a variety of                                                            
reasons. "It is disingenuous  to lead the American people to believe                                                            
that we can drill our way to oil independence," she said.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
The amount  of oil there is a debate.  The U.S. contains  about five                                                            
percent  of the  world's population  and yet  every  year we use  25                                                            
percent  of  the world's  produced  oil.  We  are  not going  to  be                                                            
satisfied by simply opening  the Refuge. She said seeing pictures of                                                            
caribou  rubbing  themselves on  the  pipeline does  not  accurately                                                            
portray  the impacts  of oil  development  on the  North Slope.  The                                                            
impacts that Prudhoe  Bay have caused on caribou are  scientifically                                                            
documented  Ms.   Schrader  said.  Also,  resources   vital  to  the                                                            
subsistence lifestyle  and all the North Slope should  be protected.                                                            
There should  be scientific  evidence proving  that oil exploration                                                             
and drilling  will not impact the  caribou and other resources  that                                                            
the  Gwich'in  depend on  before  ANWR  is opened.  Not  doing  that                                                            
clearly  makes opening  ANWR a human  rights issue.  She hoped  they                                                            
would take  time to read  the letter that  200 scientists signed  so                                                            
they  could  have  an understanding   of why  so  many  Alaskan  and                                                            
Americans are going to fight very hard to protect ANWR.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS.  SCHRADER commented  about  the Porcupine  Caribou  herd that  a                                                            
letter dated  December 11 states that  in four of the past  30 years                                                            
the caribou  have not calved  on the coastal  plain. The  scientific                                                            
articles substantiating that claim are attached to that letter.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  LINCOLN asked  if there was  research she  could site  that                                                            
would answer Senator Taylor's concerns.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHRADER responded  that Senator Elton pointed  him in the right                                                            
direction to Ken Whitten's article.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 01-15, SIDE B                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
MS. SCHRADER said it states  that there are 5,000 caribou roughly in                                                            
the mid  1970s when oil  development first  started and in  the year                                                            
2000  it is 27,000.  She  said the  scientific articles  are  listed                                                            
there and could be found at the Juneau Library.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  TAYLOR  clarified  that  he  had  reviewed  the  referenced                                                            
documents and  he said that the "scientists"  who signed  the letter                                                            
weren't all scientists.  Most of them were managers of environmental                                                            
organizations.  Mr. Whitten doesn't  even start looking at  the herd                                                            
until the mid-70s  when the herd was  less than 5,000. He  had asked                                                            
if  there  was any  historic  or  factual  basis  for  the  concerns                                                            
expressed on adversely impacting a caribou herd.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. SCHRADER  responded that she had  a scientific article  that she                                                            
would provide him.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  TAYLOR moved  to pass  CSHJR 7(RES)am  from committee  with                                                            
individual recommendations.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  KELLY objected  for  purposes of  discussion  and asked  if                                                            
there was an outdated section that needed to be taken out.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON  said he thought there was testimony  that it was                                                            
already taken out.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  TAYLOR mentioned  a  typographic  error that  the  drafters                                                            
could clean up on page 3, line 12. That was so ordered.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR KELLY removed his objection.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN objected  for purposes of discussion. She always has                                                            
difficulty with weasel  words like "maximum extent possible" on page                                                            
3, line  12 where it says  "and uses the  state's work force  to the                                                            
maximum extent possible;"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
She said it doesn't  mean anything and she doesn't  like to see that                                                            
kind of language  in a resolution.  The last "Further Resolved"  was                                                            
new language  from last year.  After noting  those things,  she said                                                            
she wasn't  supporting the resolution  anyway, but would  remove her                                                            
objection.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  TORGERSON  said that  without  objection,  CSHJR  7(RES)am                                                            
moved  from  committee  with  individual  recommendations   and  the                                                            
accompanying fiscal note.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN TORGERSON adjourned the meeting at 4:30 p.m.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                              

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