Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/24/1994 03:40 PM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                   SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE                                  
                         March 24, 1994                                        
                           3:40 P.M.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Senator Mike Miller, Chairman                                                 
 Senator Loren Leman, Vice Chairman                                            
 Senator Steve Frank                                                           
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
 Senator Drue Pearce                                                           
 Senator Al Adams                                                              
 Senator Dave Donley                                                           
 Senator Fred Zharoff                                                          
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
 SENATE BILL NO. 310                                                           
 "An Act relating to the management and sale of state timber;                  
 relating to the classification of state land that would preclude              
 harvesting of timber or would designate harvesting of timber as an            
 incompatible use; relating to the administration of forest land,              
 proposals for state forest, and the determination of sustained                
 yield; and providing for an effective date."                                  
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
 SB 310 - See Resources minutes dated 3/2/94, 3/16/94 and 3/22/94.             
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
 Greg Mahacheck                                                                
 P.O. Box 56245                                                                
 North Pole, Ak. 99705                                                         
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Commented on SB 310.                                   
 James Drew                                                                    
 4725 Villanova Dr.                                                            
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported CSSB 310.                                    
 William Green                                                                 
 1230 16th Ave.                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99701                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Pamela Held                                                                   
 330 Woodland Ave.                                                             
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Robert Hull                                                                   
 1630 Washington Dr.                                                           
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Steve Pecheck                                                                 
 3927 Venture Lane                                                             
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99707                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 John Faucher                                                                  
 P.O. Box 73255                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99707                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Commented on SB 310.                                    
 Fred Heflinger                                                                
 P.O. Box 82390                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99708                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Carl Rosenberg                                                                
 P.O. Box 81996                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99708                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Sarah James                                                                   
 P.O. Box 51                                                                   
 Arctic Village, Ak. 99722                                                     
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Dave Lacey                                                                    
 P.O. Box 81765                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99708                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Hugh Doogan                                                                   
 359 Slater Street                                                             
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99701                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Pam Webster                                                                   
 P.O. Box 70953                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99707                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Ted Swen                                                                      
 P.O. Box 82068                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99708                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Phillip Martin                                                                
 P.O. Box 195                                                                  
 Ester, Ak. 99725                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Sylvia Ward                                                                   
 218 Driveway                                                                  
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99701                                                          
 Leonard Kimerling                                                             
 1380 Coyote Terrace                                                           
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 John Loquvam                                                                  
 1874 Buck's Rd.                                                               
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Hillary Schaefer                                                              
 P.O. Box 435                                                                  
 Ester, Ak. 99725                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Harry Porter                                                                  
 3206 Riverview Dr.                                                            
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Harold Gillam                                                                 
 104 2nd Ave.                                                                  
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99701                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Eva Saulitis                                                                  
 325 Yana                                                                      
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Richard Hayden                                                                
 470 Canary Lane                                                               
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Richard McCaffrey                                                             
 P.O. Box 86                                                                   
 Ester, Ak. 99725                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Trish Wurtz                                                                   
 P.O. Box 82864                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99708                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
   Louise Silet                                                                
 P.O. Box 83301                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99708                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Monica Garza                                                                  
 3891 Frenchman Rd.                                                            
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99709                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
  Mike Prax                                                                    
 1015 Meadow Rue                                                               
 North Pole, Ak. 99709                                                         
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Supported SB 310.                                      
 Robert Day                                                                    
 P.O. Box 81931                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99708                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Jacqueline D'Auria                                                            
 P.O. Box 74704                                                                
 Fairbanks, Ak. 99707                                                          
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Barbara Kelly                                                                 
 6751 Marguerite                                                               
 Juneau, Ak. 99801                                                             
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 Andrew Romanoff                                                               
 South East Alaska Conservation Council (SEACC)                                
 419 6th St. #328                                                              
 Juneau, Ak. 99801                                                             
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
  Katya Kirsch                                                                 
 P.O. Box 521                                                                  
 Haines, Ak.                                                                   
  POSITION STATEMENT:   Opposed SB 310.                                        
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
  TAPE 94-28, SIDE A                                                           
 Number 001                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN MILLER called the Resources Committee meeting to order at            
 3:40 p.m. and announced  SB 310  (STATE/PRIVATE/MUNI TIMBER                   
 OPERATION/SALE) to be up for consideration.                                   
 GREG MAHACHECK, Fairbanks, supported SB 310.  He said when you fly            
 across the state there are plenty of areas that look like they are            
 clear cut, so there's nothing new about that.  Also, our growing              
 cycle here is much quicker than in California, about 80 - 100                 
 years.  He thought more public process should be involved and then            
 he would be able to support this bill.                                        
 JAMES DREW, Fairbanks, supported CSSB 310.  He thought it would               
 bring many job opportunities and social benefits for Alaskans.  An            
 expanded forest industry can provide alternative jobs to replace              
 those that are eliminated by reduction of the state budget, he                
 WILLIAM GREEN, Fairbanks resident for 48 years, said timber is like           
 any other living resource in that there is a time when its highest            
 and best use is to be harvested to make way for new plantings.  The           
 science of sustained yield management is well developed and should            
 be utilized in Alaska's forests as well as all other states.  He              
 supported SB 310, because it will create new jobs for our community           
 and diversify our economy.  It should also increase the local tax             
 base to help offset the decline in the state budget.                          
 PAMELA HELD, Fairbanks small business owner, supported SB 310.  We            
 need responsible development of our natural resources in this state           
 in an environment of cooperation and harmony.  Resource development           
 must be a top priority, he said.                                              
 ROBERT HULL, Fairbanks resident for 15 years, said timber is one of           
 the renewable resources we have and he favored SB 310, because it             
 helps develop those renewable resources.                                      
 STEVE PECHECK, Fairbanks resident for 20 years, opposed SB 310,               
 because it makes multiple use of the state forests secondary. The             
 20 year agreements are too long.  He thought the key to a good                
 economy is staying local.  He cautioned that in so many cases where           
 large outside enterprises are encouraged by the government,                   
 resources are used so easily that wise usage is often passed by.              
 JOHN FAUCHER, Fairbanks, commented that he didn't agree with the              
 environmental testimony he had heard regarding clear cutting.                 
 FRED HEFLINGER, Fairbanks, supported SB 310 in its original form.             
 The CS has so much public input that the environmentalists could              
 stop it.  Soon the trees in the Tanana forest will be so big that             
 they will start to fall over, so they should be harvested.  He                
 wanted big business to come in.                                               
 CARL ROSENBERG, Fairbanks, said he is a local woodworker and a 15             
 year Alaskan resident.  He was concerned with FMAs, public appeals,           
 and closing out small local responsible users of timber resources.            
 He viewed incredible waste made by large scale timber harvest                 
 practices.  He would like to see a bill that would support local              
 businesses that use our resources wisely.                                     
 SARAH JAMES, Arctic Village, believed in small scale logging                  
 because it favors indigenous peoples.  She opposed long term                  
 logging, because it is another way for outsiders to come in and               
 take what they need and then leave.                                           
 DAVE LACEY, Fairbanks, said SB 310 was another nail in the coffin             
 or rural Alaska, because as more roads and more developers and more           
 outsiders are brought in, it's going to destroy the subsistence               
 economy.  He asked them to please protect the jobs already here and           
 the subsistence economy which, although they have a cultural basis,           
 are jobs, nevertheless.                                                       
 Number 341                                                                    
 HUGH DOOGAN, Fairbanks, said he was 54 years old and was born and             
 raised in the state of Alaska.  He was raised on subsistence and              
 had seen logging in the territorial days in southeastern Alaska.              
 He said the south end of Douglas Island has a lot of big beautiful            
 trees which had been cleared off at one time by the mining                    
 industry, because they used acid to clean the gold claims.  Mother            
 nature does bring back the resources, he said.  He supported SB               
 310, but he had a problem on page 3 where he recommended deleting             
 "includes compatible traditional use", because traditional uses go            
 in and out.  He also would like to see clarification of wildlife              
 SENATOR LEMAN noted that the definition of wildlife habitats used             
 in SB 310 is in existing law in Title 38.                                     
 COLIN READ, Fairbanks, said he supported a diversified economy, but           
 he did not want our resources to go to outsiders.  He thought they            
 should consider the far reaching implications of this bill.  He               
 said Alaskan based operations are much more beneficial to our                 
 economy.  With this bill, a lot of the interests will be coming               
 from outside.  Very little of the income from the resources will be           
 staying inside Alaska which concerns him a great deal.  He                    
 requested hearings on this issue in Fairbanks so they can get a               
 true sense of what the public wishes.                                         
 Number 424                                                                    
 PAM WEBSTER, Fairbanks resident for 17 years, said she had been in            
 this room 4 times now.  This time she did not want to talk about              
 the reasons they don't like SB 310.  She is concerned with Senator            
 Frank's comment that some people don't want sustainable timber                
 harvest, no matter what, a comment she had read in the paper after            
 the first few hearings.  She noted that the ratio was 3 to 1                  
 against SB 310 which is a lot of people, not just some.  She said             
 she believed in jobs and had to work for a living like all the                
 other people in the room, but she didn't think we need to degrade             
 the environment to do it.  SB 310 is the quick and easy way to make           
 TED SWEN, Fairbanks, said the last three mornings on his way to               
 work he saw trucks carrying logs.  This means to him that SB 310 is           
 not essential to the development of a forest product industry in              
 this area since it's already started.  The issue is really whether            
 FMAs and 20 year contracts are the appropriate tool to use in the             
 development of these resources.  He didn't think there was accurate           
 data on the impact of large scale logging on fish and wildlife                
 resources which are extremely important to a lot of Alaskans.                 
 MR. SWEN objected to the language in section 5 of the CS which was            
 amended to read "that the primary purpose of state forested land is           
 the development of commercial forest lands under the principles of            
 sustained yield, etc."  He felt it inappropriate for the                      
 legislature, a small group of short term representatives, to                  
 reprioritize the relative value of the myriad of forest resources             
 that occur on our land.  A shift in priorities requires careful               
 thought and everyone should be involved in it.                                
 MR. SWEN said he was concerned with Senator Frank's comment from a            
 local paper saying he was bewildered by the opposition to this                
 bill, but that he was going to proceed anyhow.  He noted that there           
 had been a lot of articulate testimony against it, and there is               
 nothing bewildering about it except that it hasn't been withdrawn             
 in light of all the opposition.                                               
 PHILLIP MARTIN, wildlife biologist of 15 years, opposed SB 310,               
 because large scale logging has the potential to impact wildlife              
 habitat like nothing else they have seen in the interior.  Certain            
 habitat like the high volume old growth spruce and poplar we could            
 loose altogether in a 20 year contract.  The process set up in SB             
 310 is set up to look on the surface like it requires consideration           
 of wildlife habitat values, but the reality is that this form of              
 management with long term contracts would far outstrip our                    
 knowledge of the impact.                                                      
 SYLVIA WARD, NAEC, Fairbanks, supported having hearings in                    
 Fairbanks on this issue of large scale timber development.  There             
 needs to be a cost benefit analysis of this proposed industry, she            
 said.  All of her efforts to research this issue have indicated it            
 would result in an influx of new residents into their community and           
 encourage raw log exports and unsustainable levels.  There is a               
 problem with out of state hire with this industry.  44% of timber             
 employees come from outside Alaska.  Public record indicates the              
 state has not yet had a plausible experience with large volume                
 LEONARD KIMERLING, Fairbanks resident for 25 years, said he was not           
 opposed to resource development, because it is critical for the               
 future of Alaska.  SB 310 seems to do that in a very haphazard and            
 rushed way which causes a bad public perception.  He would like to            
 see more study of the benefits and liabilities over a long period             
 of time.  Many people are just beginning to realize the impact of             
 clear cutting on slow growth boreal forests.  That is why there is            
 such a broad coalition of people against this bill. It's not just             
 an organization of extreme environmentalists.  It's very much the             
 opposite. He supported consensus from the public on this issue.               
 Number 542                                                                    
 JOHN LOQUVAM, Fairbanks, said he has a small woodworking business.            
 He supported the local mills and thought the wisdom of DNR's plan             
 to increase timber harvest in the Tanana Valley was very debatable.           
 It is irresponsible at best.  SB 310 is a desperate attempt to ram            
 an industry ready made down the throats of interior residents, he             
 said.  This is the type of development that will have very real and           
 naked impacts on their outdoors.  SB 310 sets us up for another               
 chapter in the Alaskan saga of boom and bust.                                 
 HILLARY SCHAEFER, Fairbanks, opposed SB 310 and CSSB 310 and is               
 concerned about the speed it is being rushed through the                      
 legislature.  One of the main problems with the bill is                       
 establishment of FMAs.  Once a contract has been entered on, the              
 public has no way to appeal its content.  She saw a problem with              
 the future control and abuse of our forests by commercial timber              
 development companies.  As of this moment our forests are being               
 multiused, she said.  If control is given to the large timber                 
 concerns, eventually forest habitat will be destroyed and                     
 livelihoods will be adversely impacted.                                       
 SENATOR LEMAN noted that the bill was still in its first committee            
 of referral and this was the fourth hearing they were having on it.           
 MOLLY HUDSON, Fairbanks, said she is not a tree hugger or a bunny             
 lover, but she likes to hunt and fish and likes to live in Alaska             
 because of the opportunity she has as an Alaskan to take advantage            
 of state natural resources in a respectable sustainable fashion.              
 As an Alaskan she resents our resources being negotiated away to              
 outsiders.  She opposed the quiet negotiations of FMAs and the                
 assumption she would happily accept the intrusion of corporate                
 logging roads and its financial drain of large scale logging                  
  TAPE 94-28, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 580                                                                   
 Forest Management Agreements mean the end of multiple use, she                
 HARRY PORTER, Fairbanks, supported SB 310.  When he arrived here 43           
 years ago, he needed a job.  Now he has 3 married children and he             
 felt they and their offspring should be able to stay in Alaska, but           
 they cannot stay here unless jobs are created. He has every                   
 confidence that the people trained in timber management, forestry,            
 and environmental concerns can come to some agreement that can                
 provide jobs for his children.  He also noted that there is a lot             
 of concern over this bill, but a lot of the people are at work and            
 aren't able to testify.                                                       
 HAROLD GILLAM, Fairbanks, supported SB 310.  He said he thought               
 there was room for small and large timber companies, but we have              
 been losing small timber companies, he said, and suggested                    
 investigating to find out why.                                                
 EVA SAULITIS, Fairbanks, opposed SB 310, because it allows 20 years           
 contracts and opens the forests up to large scale logging.  She               
 said some common ground among the people testifying is support of             
 local loggers.  They just can't agree on whether this bill will               
 protect the local loggers or not.  She feels that outside companies           
 will come in and cut down large amounts of forest and leave less              
 forest available for local loggers.  She thinks the bill needs                
 extensive hearings to get an accurate scoping of what public                  
 RICHARD HAYDEN, Fairbanks, said he used to be a subsistence hunter            
 and fisherman.  He opposed SB 310.  He said there is no way Alaska            
 can support large scale logging without being damaged in some way.            
 Nobody wants a threadbare carpet, he said.                                    
 Number 470                                                                    
 RICHARD MCCAFFREY, Fairbanks, said he has a masters degree in                 
 forestry science.  He opposed SB 310, because it cuts the public              
 out of the planning process.  FMAs should be avoided he said in               
 favor of small scale sustainable harvest operations reached by                
 community consensus.                                                          
 TRISH WURTZ, Fairbanks, said she has a PHD in forest science from             
 the University of Oregon.  She supported the development of timber            
 resources in Alaska.  She supported clear cutting over other kinds            
 of systems, and in certain situations she supports FMAs, but she              
 doesn't support SB 310, because it is haphazardously written.  More           
 questions should be answered about the FMAs like where do they work           
 well.  Where and under what conditions have they not worked, how              
 big do they have to be to be viable, etc.                                     
 LOUISE SILET, Fairbanks, opposed SB 310.  She said they needed to             
 look at the ramifications of large scale, long term timber                    
 development and give people a chance to participate in this                   
 important decision on how we use our resources.                               
 MONICA GARZA, Fairbanks, opposed CSSB 310.  The 20 year forest                
 management agreements destroy the forest for present and future               
 generations.  SB 310 is short sighted.  It does not look at the               
 long term commercial, economic, and environmental consequences of             
 clear cutting.                                                                
 MIKE PRAX, Fairbanks, supported SB 310. People in the Forestry                
 Department do not have a vision of clear cutting the forest, but              
 they see a need to harvest trees that are mature and falling down,            
 etc.  We need to do something other than just let the forests                 
 stand.  SB 310 does not mandate one type of contract and we, as               
 citizens, are not able to micromanage each individual contract.               
 Number 316                                                                    
 ROBERT DAY, Fairbanks biologist, said he works on a lot of                    
 resources development problems all around Alaska.  He said his main           
 disagreement with SB 310 is that it's very bad business to change             
 the primary purpose of state forest land from multiple use to                 
 commercial production of timber.  It is also basically an end run             
 around public input at the front end of a timber harvesting.                  
 Putting the sole jurisdiction of a sale in the hands of the                   
 Commissioner of DNR is not good either, because they are not                  
 elected.  They are appointed - most likely because they are well-             
 to-do businessmen.  So their bias would be towards making money               
 with the forests rather than looking at other uses.                           
 JACQUELINE D'AURIA, Fairbanks, opposed SB 310, because it clearly             
 focuses on short term monetary gain for a few and long term                   
 decimation of the interior forests which support the livelihood and           
 lifestyle of residents of many diverse backgrounds.                           
 BARBARA KELLY, Juneau resident, said she appreciated their attempts           
 to deal with the public's concerns, but she couldn't support SB 310           
 or CSSB 310.  She did not think sales of under 500,000 board feet             
 should automatically be exempt from the requirements of Section               
 38.05.113.  This is too large an amount for some regions of the               
 state, because of the varying amounts of board feet per acre.                 
 She did not believe it was in the best interests of the people of             
 Alaska to enter into such long terms contracts as allowed under the           
 Forest Management Agreement Section.  It eliminated the possibility           
 of a continuing dialogue about and review of uses of particular               
 areas of state forest land.  Long term contracts benefits only                
 those involved in the timber industry and no one else, she                    
 MS. KELLY also disagreed with Section 41.17.200 as it has been                
 amended.  The primary purpose of state forests should not be the              
 commercial development of forest land.  This is in direct conflict            
 with multiple use management.                                                 
 ANDREW ROMANA, South East Alaska Conservation Council, said that              
 both the Ketchikan and Sitka 50 year monopoly logging contracts               
 have caused a world of hurt.  Unsustainable overcutting has and               
 continued to liquidate the forest of its trees, jobs, money, and              
 habitats that are the foundation of the economic well being of the            
 65,000 residents who call South East Alaska home.                             
 It is difficult to know what level of logging is truly sustainable            
 on any forest.  Last fall both Forest Service and Fish and Wildlife           
 Service biologists announced that present logging levels will soon            
 cause extinction of the goshawk, wolf, and brown bear for many                
 areas of the Tongass National Forest, MR. ROMANA said.                        
 KATYA KIRSCH, Haines resident, said she lives in a house that was             
 built with local timber from Haines.  Many people in Haines support           
 a modest wood products industry, she said.  It's a question of                
 appropriate scale for the wood products industry in Alaska.  In               
 Haines, long term contracts look like a bad idea.  Timber sales               
 should not run any longer than 3 - 5 years which is how they are              
 run now, because facts change and inventories that seem                       
 scientifically correct have been found to be incorrect years later            
 - often with less available timber than originally calculated.  She           
 commented, in relation to this, that the state needs to put a                 
 higher priority on its timber inventory data which by law is needed           
 to harvest areas.                                                             
 MS. KIRSCH said if FMAs are institutionalized, that would be a bad            
 public policy.  If they are allowed, the public and other agencies            
 should have more time for oversight than this bill allows.  Page 3,           
 line 10 must be changed to allow for at least 30 days and more like           
 90 days.                                                                      
 Below cost timber sales should not be allowed.  This has happened             
 all over the state, because the state shouldn't be losing money               
 subsidizing the removal of our forests.  The state has been losing            
 90 cents on each dollar in recent years.  She would like to see an            
 economic analysis that shows why the proposed sales in the                    
 Fairbanks area will not lose money.                                           
 Primary manufacture is also a problem.  The court has ruled that              
 state timber does not need any manufacture.  It can be shipped out            
 in the round.  She didn't see why this provision would not be                 
 challenged again in court when an FMA is contracted.                          
 If the legislature insists on carrying through with this                      
 legislation, FMAs should be bonded for clean up and carry through.            
 In Haines several million board feet were left on the ground                  
 because the contractor would have lost money transporting and                 
 selling that particular timber.                                               
 Private companies are in business to make money, not to care for              
 public resources, MS. KIRSCH said.  It's important that DNR                   
 continue to manage public lands.                                              
 Eliminating public and agency oversight of so-called emergency                
 sales and of two yearly sales of less than 500,000 board feet in              
 each region is bad public policy.                                             
 SENATOR LEMAN asked if she thought all the ideas were bad public              
 policy.  MS. KIRSCH said that the majority of the bill has to do              
 with long term contracts and FMAs and she didn't see any good                 
 coming out of that for the state's finances or the good of the                
 SENATOR LEMAN commented that he thought they would have the ability           
 within the FMAs to change quotas or other things that would allow             
 forest lands to be managed for multiple use.  MS. KIRSCH said she             
 didn't think it likely and used the Tongass as a good example of              
 where a certain amount of timber is guaranteed and then they found            
 out later that there weren't as many tress in some areas as they              
  TAPE 94-29, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 001                                                                   
 She thought 3 - 5 years would be a much safer time span for being             
 certain of the facts.  SENATOR LEMAN said he would like to discuss            
 this issue with his technical people and others.                              
 SENATOR LEMAN thanked everyone for their participation and                    
 adjourned the meeting at 5:16 p.m.                                            

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