Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/04/1998 01:35 PM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
March 4, 1998
1:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Robin Taylor, Chairman
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice-Chairman
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Sean Parnell
Senator Johnny Ellis
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present.
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE CS FOR CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 170(HES)
"An Act relating to interference with the rights of physically and
mentally challenged persons; and relating to service animals during
their pre-training and training period."
- SCS FOR CS FOR HOUSE BILL 170(JUD) MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 7(JUD)
"An Act authorizing establishment of community dispute resolution
centers to foster the resolution of disputes between juvenile
offenders and their victims, and providing immunity from civil
suits for youth courts and for members of the boards of directors,
employees, volunteers, and members of youth courts."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
HB 170 - See Senate HESS committee minutes dated 1/23/98 & 2/4/98.
HB 7 - See Senate Judiciary minutes dated 2/4/98.
WITNESS REGISTER
Representative Tom Brice
State Capitol
Juneau, Ak 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SCS CSHB 170(HESS)
Ms. Ruby Schmidtbauer
PO Box 306
Ninilchik, Ak 99639
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170
Ms. Linda Athons
34824 K-Beach Rd.
Soldotna, Ak 99669
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170
Ms. Helen Craig
613 Degroff St.
Sitka, Ak 99835
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170
Mr. William Craig
613 Degroff St.
Sitka, Ak 99835
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170
Mr. Patrick Reinhart
1016 W. 6th Ave. #205
Anchorage, Ak 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 170
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-13, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN ROBIN TAYLOR called the Judiciary Committee meeting to
order at 1:35 and brought up Senate Committee Substitute for
Committee Substitute for HB 170(HESS) as the first order of
business.
HB 170 - SERVICE ANIMALS FOR PHYS/MENT. CHALLENGED
REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE, prime sponsor of HB 170, said the impetus
of the bill was people trying to train service animals and who had
been refused full access to ferries, the court system and other
state buildings. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE stated that the Americans
with Disabilities Act (ADA) affords people the right to enter a
public facility with a service animal. He said, however, the person
is still responsible for that animal and may be asked to leave if
the animal is disruptive.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the other issue the bill seeks to address
is service animals in training and their access to public
facilities. He said, in his understanding, changes in the judiciary
committee substitute deal with certification and identification of
these animals. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE found these changes acceptable.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if REPRESENTATIVE BRICE was satisfied with the
Senate HESS committee substitute that covers only public buildings
or if he would like to see the bill restored to its original form.
REP. BRICE replied that some of the issues revolved around access
to the State Fair and other private facilities but he would leave
the decision up to the committee. SENATOR ELLIS said he would be
inclined to expand the bill but did not want to hurt the bills
chances by pressing it and would defer to the wishes of the rest of
the committee.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked where the limited access was in the bill and
REP. BRICE pointed to page 3, line 17, defining public facility. He
explained that the first part of the bill simply brings the state
into compliance with the ADA regarding certified service animals
and the second part of the bill covers service animals in training.
SENATOR ELLIS encouraged the committee to consider finding some
middle ground allowing these animals into larger places commonly
thought of as public accommodations. SENATOR ELLIS said the
testimony in the Hess committee was all in favor of leaving the
bill the way it was, but, when they were told the bill would not
move in that form, people decided some access was better than none.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked what actually happened at the Palmer fair and
REP. BRICE said he only heard an anecdotal account of that incident
but he believed the HESS change was a result of that committee's
unwillingness to place a burden on private industry.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the fair was actually a private industry.
SENATOR MILLER moved the adoption of the Senate Judiciary committee
substitute for committee substitute for HB 170. Without objection,
it was so ordered.
MS. RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER testified via teleconference from Kenai and
urged the committee to restore this bill to it's original form. She
said dogs in training need exposure to become good service animals.
MS. LINDA ATHONS, representing the 4-H guide dog program, also
testified via teleconference from Kenai. MS. ATHONS said the bill
originated from a planned 'fun day' for dogs in training at the
Palmer fair in 1995. The dogs were turned away and she was told by
the fair board that they would not be allowed without legislative
change. The 4-H teen trainers who were accompanying the dogs then
worked with the Governor's Council on Independent Living to create
this legislation. MS. ATHONS said she believed that this part of
the history of the bill has been lost along the way, and, with the
inclusion of only state buildings, the original intent has
disappeared.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked how many young people had gone to the fair
and MS. ATHONS replied there were six. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if
there was some reason or a problem that came up that prevented them
from entering the fair. MS. ATHONS said they were using the tent
prior to the normal 4-H dog show and she believes that the fair
prohibited them because of previous bad behavior by dogs totally
unrelated to their organization.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR remarked that the judiciary committee substitute
provides for identification and certification of dogs and their
trainers and asked if MS. ATHONS had any problem with that. MS.
ATHONS replied that members of her organization currently carry
identification cards, describing both dog and trainer. CHAIRMAN
TAYLOR remarked that some more visible form of identification may
eliminate certain problems. MS. ATHONS replied that service dogs in
her training program are required to wear jackets in public.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned that hopefully that would always be the
case if they put it into law and also certification would be
available for trainers. MS. ATHONS said currently trainers are
instructed in training and raising of the dog and must meet strict
criteria before they can progress. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR stated he added
a form of identification and certification through the Department
of Health and Social Services so there would be an established
minimum standard. Right now there is no uniform body that issues
identification and is approved by the state of Alaska. CHAIRMAN
TAYLOR stressed he wants a clear, easily recognizable form of
identification.
SENATOR MILLER commented that he is also more comfortable with a
standardized certification program and, as a business owner, would
be more comfortable allowing dogs in training access to his
business establishment if there was such a program.
LINDA ATHONS emphasized that the 4-H program that she administers
has strict criteria including home visits, trainer screening, and
animal identification by breed. She believes the current
identification is clear but CHAIRMAN TAYLOR argued that
unfortunately there are always discourteous scofflaws who will do
whatever they please.
MR. BILL CRAIG testified via teleconference from Sitka and
suggested perhaps including a misdemeanor prohibition against
falsely claiming an animal to be a service animal.
MS. HELEN CRAIG also testified via teleconference from Sitka. MS.
CRAIG has been denied access to businesses all over the state with
her certified service animal. MS. CRAIG said she is unable to hear
well and needs the guidance of her service animal. She said dogs in
training as well as certified service dogs need access to different
situations in order to become successful.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR explained the changes made in the judiciary
committee substitute and said the program and identification
mandated by these changes could be modeled after the current 4-H
program.
DR. LEE HAGMEYER, with his service animal Wizard, testified that he
has used a service animal for 23 years and has worked his dogs in
situations ranging from ferries to taxicabs and has never had any
problem more severe than a concern about shedding. DR. HAGMEYER
indicated that, in the seeing-eye dog training program he is
familiar with, there are established policies and procedures that
trainers follow. These allow for assessment and advancement of each
dog at their own pace and require the trainer to contact businesses
in advance and obtain permission to bring a dog in training into
their business. DR. HAGMEYER said that he understands the concern
that training programs should be vigorous but, with a three year
apprenticeship program for trainers and up to two years training
for the dog, he thinks this program is sufficiently rigorous. He
said a service dog is responsible for the space around their
person, including the navigation of curbs, steps and traffic. DR.
HAGMEYER recommended the standards of The U.S. Council of Guide Dog
Schools as a model for any state standards that might be adopted.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted that DR. HAGEMEYER had not had problems with
access and expressed his surprise that it might take two years
before a client could be united with a dog. DR. HAGEMEYER replied
that he waited 18 months for his current dog, but his first dog
took two years as she was more high spirited than Wizard.
MS. CRAIG interjected that seeing eye dogs are similar in some ways
to hearing ear dogs but in many ways they are very different. She
explained that her hearing ear dog required three years of training
but learned 1000 commands in that time and now is able to warn her
of danger, tell her where other people are in relation to her
position and let her know when the phone rings, among other things.
She said the service of these dogs benefits not only their user but
society as a whole. MS. CRAIG emphasized the ability to provide
this benefit requires access to all places under all circumstances.
MS. CRAIG expressed her appreciation for the work of the committee
but reminded them that minimum standards need to be specific to the
type of service the dog will eventually provide.
SENATOR PARNELL asked DR. HAGEMEYER if, with his 23 years of
experience, he could imagine areas where an animal in training
should not be allowed to enter. SENATOR PARNELL provided the
example of a day care facility that might hesitate to allow an
animal in training due to safety concerns and CHAIRMAN TAYLOR
suggested a machine shop might be a dangerous place. DR. HAGEMEYER
replied that he has never had any trouble with his service dogs,
except once, in a bar, where intoxicated people were somewhat
difficult to deal with.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR mentioned his interest was in the call requesting
permission to bring a dog in training into a business that is
currently used. DR. HAGEMEYER agreed that this is the 4-H standard.
He said there is also adult supervision and both the dog and the
trainer are identified by the identification card and the collar
tag/kerchief. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR restated his concern that the dog be
identified by a means that is quickly and easily recognizable. DR.
HAGEMEYER said he was concerned that not just anyone could throw a
blanket over their dog and say it is a dog in training. CHAIRMAN
TAYLOR agreed with this.
MR. PATRICK REINHART, representing the Alaska Independent Living
Council, testified via teleconference from Anchorage and suggested
that the definition of public facility might be broadened to
include "any entity that accepts public funding" to expand the
sites where dogs in training would be allowed. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR
responded by saying that DR. HAGEMEYER indicated dogs in training
shouldn't be forced on unwilling businesses in the private sector.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR believes that the request for permission up-front
is excellent, but there may be some good reasons for not allowing
kids to take service dogs everywhere, without restriction. MR.
REINHART believes CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's concerns are covered by the
committee substitute, he would just like to see the expansion of
"public facilities", though his preference would be to have all
private businesses open to dogs in training. MR. REINHART said the
4-H program currently does a wonderful job of training these dogs
and this bill is only designed to overcome any roadblocks they
might encounter in this process.
LINDA ATHONS restated that the general protocol of the 4-H program
is to call and ask permission in advance of a visit by a dog in
training. She said in the case of an unplanned stop, the trainer
may not be able to call in advance. MS. ATHONS mentioned that
trainers establish and rely on good working relationships with
business managers and occasionally have trouble when management
changes. MS. ATHONS also noted that these changes do not provide
the desired access to private sector businesses, yet add another
layer of regulation. She said she feels she wished they wouldn't
have bothered in the first place. She said this places a fee on
people doing community service in order to process their
certification which she currently does under the 4-H program. She
wondered who would certify people under the bill and if she could
just turn things over to them and no longer have to administer the
guide dog training program. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR replied that they were
only looking for better identification and the bill was drafted to
allow the adoption of her program and she could be the one to
inform the department if someone met the requirements of
certification.
MS. ATHONS again questioned the fee, saying these people are
already spending up to $1000 to raise the dog. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR
replied that the fee covered certification and he added the fiscal
note so the bill would not be slowed down by requiring a finance
committee referral. MS. ATHONS said the whole point of the bill was
access and now, with everything that has been tacked on, it feels
unmanageable.
MS. RUBY SCHMIDTBAUER, again testifying via teleconference from
Kenai, said the dogs are clearly identified under the current 4-H
program. She believes that these dogs in training meet rigorous
standards and businesses and people need education about this
issue. She would like to see the bill returned to it's original
form. She said there are currently not enough dogs to meet the
demand for them within the seeing-impaired community.
SENATOR ELLIS commented that it appeared they had reached a
breakthrough when SENATOR MILLER approved CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's
certification language, which he said allayed his fears about
letting a service dog into his business. SENATOR ELLIS indicated
that it might be appropriate to include quasi-public places like
malls and fairs and he said he empathized with the negative
reaction to a new form of certification. He sensed people may be
willing to go along with the new certification if they got access
to more places.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE mentioned the need for consistent visual
identification of service animals, as described in a letter from
the state fair. He said the department has the latitude to certify
the 4-H program now and, though he appreciates the concerns that
were raised, he believes they can be addressed by the department
and he would like to see the bill moved. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said
he can imagine a regulation being created by the department at a
nominal cost and the new certification goes along way in providing
comfort for business owners. He left any further expansion of
access up to the committee.
SENATOR PARNELL said he would vote to move the bill as-is due to
the testimony of DR.HAGEMEYER; he suggested they move the bill.
SENATOR PARNELL then made a motion to move SCS for CSHB 170 (JUD)
from committee with individual recommendations. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR
objected in order to comment that he was moved by the Doctor's
testimony. He thinks the committee can not predict what types of
situations might go awry. He stated that he is more comfortable
with trainers calling in advance, asking permission. He thinks this
involves the business owner in the training process and avoids
problems. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said the programs are working with the
protocols that have been set up. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE noted that
the bill is not prohibitive and will not prohibit any type of
training. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR added that the bill also specifically
opens up some facilities that were previously left to the
discretion of managers. He said it is at least a step.
With no more comment on the motion, CHAIRMAN TAYLOR lifted his
objection and SCS CSHB 170(JUD) passed from committee.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced that HB 7 was in a new draft that would
be brought before the committee at the next hearing. With no
further business to come before the committee, they were adjourned.
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