Legislature(2003 - 2004)

04/04/2003 01:38 PM JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
              SENATE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         April 4, 2003                                                                                          
                           1:38 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Ralph Seekins, Chair                                                                                                    
Senator Scott Ogan, Vice Chair                                                                                                  
Senator Gene Therriault                                                                                                         
Senator Johnny Ellis                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Hollis French                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
SENATE BILL NO. 97                                                                                                              
"An Act  relating to  public interest  litigants and  to attorney                                                               
fees; and amending Rule 82, Alaska Rules of Civil Procedure."                                                                   
     SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 82(L&C)                                                                                                   
"An Act making certain activity  related to commercial electronic                                                               
mail unlawful  and an unfair  method of competition or  an unfair                                                               
or deceptive  act or  practice under  the Act  enumerating unfair                                                               
trade practices and consumer protections."                                                                                      
     MOVED CSHB 82(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 89                                                                                                              
"An Act amending  the definition of 'lobbyist'  in the Regulation                                                               
of Lobbying Act,  and as it applies in the  act setting standards                                                               
of conduct  for legislators and legislative  employees, to define                                                               
'regular' and  'substantial' as  those terms  describe activities                                                               
for  which a  person receives  consideration for  the purpose  of                                                               
influencing legislative or administrative action."                                                                              
     HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 155                                                                                                             
"An  Act  relating to  hunting  on  the  same day  airborne;  and                                                               
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
     HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
HB 82 - See Labor and Commerce minutes dated 3/13/03.                                                                           
SB 89 - See Judiciary minutes dated 3/26/03 and 3/31/03.                                                                        
SB 155 - See Judiciary minutes dated 3/31/03.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kevin Meyer                                                                                                      
Alaska State Capitol                                                                                                            
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 82.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Ed Sniffen, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                      
Department of Law                                                                                                               
1031 W 4th Ave., Ste 200                                                                                                        
Anchorage AK 99510                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 82.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Tammy Kempton                                                                                                               
Alaska Public Offices Commission                                                                                                
2221 E. Northern Lights, Room 128                                                                                               
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 89.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Joe Mathis, Sr. Operations Manager                                                                                          
NANA Development Corporation, Subsidiary                                                                                        
NANA Regional Corporation                                                                                                       
Ocean view Dr. #A                                                                                                               
Anchorage AK 99505                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported SB 89                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Dick Cattanach, Executive Director                                                                                          
Associated General Contractors of Alaska                                                                                        
8004 Schoon                                                                                                                     
Anchorage AK 99518                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 89.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Brooke Miles, Executive Director                                                                                            
Alaska Public Offices Commission                                                                                                
2221 E. Northern Lights, Room 128                                                                                               
Anchorage AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 89.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Pam LaBolle, President                                                                                                      
Alaska State Chamber of Commerce                                                                                                
217 Second Street                                                                                                               
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported CSSB 89(JUD).                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Matt Robus, Acting Director                                                                                                 
Division of Wildlife Conservation                                                                                               
Department of Fish & Game                                                                                                       
PO Box 25526                                                                                                                    
Juneau, AK  99802-5226                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 155.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Tom Scarborough                                                                                                             
1676 Taroka Dr.                                                                                                                 
Fairbanks AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 155.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Rod Arno                                                                                                                    
PO Box 871410                                                                                                                   
Wasilla AK 99687                                                                                                                
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 155.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-16, SIDE A                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  RALPH   SEEKINS  called  the  Senate   Judiciary  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting  to order  at 1:38  p.m. Present  were Senators                                                               
Therriault,  Ogan  and  Chair   Seekins.  Senator  Ellis  arrived                                                               
shortly thereafter.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
        HB 82-LIMITATIONS ON COMMERCIAL ELECTRONIC MAIL                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS announced HB 82 to be up for consideration.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KEVIN   MEYER,  sponsor  of  HB   82,  said  this                                                               
legislation  prohibits individuals  from  sending unsolicited  e-                                                               
mails  that contain  sexually  explicit  material without  having                                                               
"ADV:ADLT" in  the subject  heading. At  least nine  other states                                                               
have  the  same  requirement  and   twenty  others  have  pending                                                               
legislation. This will  allow anyone to check  e-mail headings so                                                               
that objectionable messages  could be deleted, which  will aid in                                                               
setting up filter systems on computers.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked what ADV meant.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said it means advertisement.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked what the penalty is.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ED SNIFFEN,  Assistant Attorney  General, answered  that the                                                               
fine for violating  any law in this section of  statute is $5,000                                                               
per  violation and  each  e-mail will  be  a separate  violation.                                                               
Department of Law  doesn't have the authority to just  send out a                                                               
letter  so they  would have  to file  a suit  and have  the court                                                               
determine the amount of the fine from $2,000 to $5,000.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked if this is a civil matter, not a crime.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. SNIFFEN replied that is correct.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked why they didn't make it a crime.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. SNIFFEN responded they could.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER  said they  will certainly consider  it from                                                               
the criminal side.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  pointed out  that  would  change the  fiscal                                                               
note.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MEYER agreed  and said  that was  why they  chose                                                               
this  route for  now, because  it doesn't  have any  cost to  the                                                               
state.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS asked if this would  pertain to e-mail that is sent                                                               
from the State  of Alaska and asked how e-mail  is regulated that                                                               
is sent from other places.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MEYER explained  that  this law  will pertain  to                                                               
anything  that originates  within the  United States,  but if  it                                                               
originates outside the country, there would be no jurisdiction.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  asked how a person  in another state will  know of                                                               
restrictions in Alaska.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MEYER explained  that  anyone  in the  commercial                                                               
business of  selling things like  this has an obligation  to know                                                               
what the laws  of the state are. Alaska's law  will be similar to                                                               
a  lot  of  other  states  so  there  should  be  no  excuse  for                                                               
ignorance.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS asked how they  would know that a particular e-mail                                                               
address came from Alaska.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said  most carriers in Alaska  have the word                                                               
"Alaska" in their  addresses. The burden will be  on the business                                                               
to know the law.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS arrived at 1:49 p.m.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  said language in  the bill pertains only  to e-mail                                                               
mailed from  a computer located in  this state to an  address the                                                               
sender knows  is held by  a resident of  this state. He  asked if                                                               
there was a definition of "resident of this state."                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. SNIFFEN  replied they know  that a group of  e-mail addresses                                                               
such  as   gcialaska.net  and  ptialaska.net  are   from  Alaska.                                                               
Addresses such  as Hotmail and  Yahoo are more generic  and there                                                               
is no  way a sender  could identify where those  originated. This                                                               
legislation  likely  will not  reach  those  addresses. The  bill                                                               
states if you are sending these  types of e-mails from an Alaskan                                                               
computer,  you must  put this  header in  the message.  He didn't                                                               
know that there were that  many pornographic sites in Alaska, but                                                               
the more  important part of the  bill is if someone  else outside                                                               
of  Alaska  is  sending  pornographic e-mail  to  someone  inside                                                               
Alaska, this information must be in the header.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  ELLIS said  he  supports  the bill  and  assumes that  a                                                               
definition in  statute of "sexually explicit"  would not preclude                                                               
showing  bare  breasts  in an  e-mail  about  breast-feeding  and                                                               
cancer.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER  said they  are not  trying to  ban subjects                                                               
like that.  A definition of  sexually explicit material is  in AS                                                               
11.41.455. Breast-feeding is not listed, neither is bare breast.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN added that sexual  material in another law provides,                                                               
"be  on, be  viewed,  purchased,  rented, leased  or  held by  an                                                               
individual who is 18 years or older."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS  asked whether breast-feeding  sites would  need to                                                               
put an adult disclaimer on their e-mails.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MEYER replied  he didn't  think so,  because this                                                               
bill only pertains to commercial e-mails.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  ELLIS said  that the  commercial  aspect probably  deals                                                               
with his  concern, but he wants  members to be mindful  that many                                                               
non-profits and  non-commercial interests  sell breast  pumps and                                                               
other  things  on their  websites  to  generate funds  for  their                                                               
organizations. He  added, "There  is a  blurring on  the Internet                                                               
now between commercial and non-commercial enterprises."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  asked  for   clarification  of  the  trigger                                                               
mechanism on the fine.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MEYER explained  that the  individual could  take                                                               
action directly or go through the AG's office.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SNIFFEN  added if  an  individual  were  to pursue  a  claim                                                               
because the header was missing,  damages would be limited to $500                                                               
or three  times the amount  of actual proven damages.  The $5,000                                                               
penalty would come into play  if the state brought an enforcement                                                               
action against  a violator.  They could  get restitution  for the                                                               
consumers  at  $500  per  individual   and  ask  for  $5,000  per                                                               
violation for penalties to the state.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN  asked  if  one person  called  with  a  complaint,                                                               
whether the  AG's office could  trace the number of  e-mails that                                                               
were sent to people in Alaska.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SNIFFEN said  the search  techniques are  getting better  in                                                               
terms of  locating the origin  or e-mails and the  department has                                                               
fairly broad authority under the  state's consumer protection act                                                               
to  issue  subpoenas for  information  and  take statements  from                                                               
witnesses.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  asked if  this action could  be a  strict violation                                                               
instead of a misdemeanor with a  set fine. He was concerned about                                                               
how much  energy it would  take for  the layperson to  pursue the                                                               
issue on his or her own.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. SNIFFEN  said he  thought the  legislation pertained  more to                                                               
the state's  enforcement effort than  a private  individual's. As                                                               
for making it a criminal penalty,  it is already a class B felony                                                               
to violate  the Telephone  Solicitation Act.  The fact  that he's                                                               
unaware  of anyone  who has  gone to  jail for  that in  the last                                                               
three years indicates that the penalty is quite a deterrent.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:05 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  ELLIS said  a constituent  mentioned  that offensive  e-                                                               
mails  seemed to  increase  when  she signed  up  for a  blocking                                                               
system.  Another constituent  mentioned  that  in the  beginning,                                                               
they  had  to  actually  go  to the  cookie  that  would  trigger                                                               
offensive types of advertisements.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Although there seems  to be a legal requirement  that all e-mails                                                               
have  a link  to  click  to unsubscribe  from  the mailing  list,                                                               
constituents tell him that clicking  that link just confirms that                                                               
your e-mail  address is valid.  He asked Representative  Meyer if                                                               
he is  aware of that  or considered  any legal penalty  for trick                                                               
links.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MEYER replied  he  is aware,  and  when the  bill                                                               
first  started out  it was  broader. He  said he's  on everyone's                                                               
list - weight loss, hair loss,  Viagra, everything - and he wants                                                               
to  get  rid  of it  all,  but  he  ran  into freedom  of  speech                                                               
problems. Basically, you can get  the same information via e-mail                                                               
that  you can  in your  mailbox and  you can't  hold e-mail  to a                                                               
higher  standard.  He  focused  on  the  age-sensitive  material,                                                               
because you  can't receive it  in the regular  mail or go  to the                                                               
bookstore and buy it.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS said  he and Representative Gara ran  into the same                                                               
concerns and asked  if they could work together on  the issue. He                                                               
said  there  might be  a  compelling  case  in  the future  on  a                                                               
commercial enterprise for consumer  protection. The phony link to                                                               
unsubscribe is of interest and he  thought if it isn't handled at                                                               
the federal level, the states will take the lead.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said he would work with them.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT made  a motion  to pass  CSHB 82(L&C)  out of                                                               
committee  with individual  recommendations  and attached  fiscal                                                               
notes. There was no objection and it was so ordered.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
               SB 89-LOBBYING/ LEGISLATIVE ETHICS                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS announced SB 89 to be up for consideration.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  motioned to adopt  CSSB 89(JUD), 23LS0855\H  as the                                                               
working document.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS objected for purposes of discussion.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  explained  it  was  an  attempt  to  shorten  the                                                               
definitions to  make them clearer  and differentiate  between two                                                               
different types of lobbyists, A and B.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked who suggested 40 hours.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  said   it  was  his  suggestion  and   it  was  a                                                               
compromise.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN   asked  if  there   were  any  meetings   on  this                                                               
legislation outside of the committee  with other folks interested                                                               
in the bill.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  replied   yes,  he  met  with   the  entire  APOC                                                               
commission and other people expressed their opinions to him.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS  pointed out that  you could conduct  your business                                                               
in  the Baranof  Hotel and  that wouldn't  be considered  "in the                                                               
building."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asserted  that he spent less than four  hours at the                                                               
Baranof this year exclusive of attending some receptions.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS  said he  wanted their comments  on the  record and                                                               
withdrew  his objection.  Committee substitute  CSSB 89(JUD)  was                                                               
adopted as the working document.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:25 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TAMMY KEMPTON,  Juneau Branch  Administrator, Alaska  Public                                                               
Offices Commission, said she is  also the regulator of lobbyists.                                                               
She said she  would cover a brief history of  the lobbying law in                                                               
Alaska, focusing  on the issue  of employees who lobby  for their                                                               
employers and  how that's been  defined over the years.  She also                                                               
wanted  to  share  research  on  how  other  states  address  the                                                               
definition. She told members:                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     The first  lobbying law  was passed  in 1913  and there                                                                    
     are two types of lobbyist,  but neither type was called                                                                    
     a   lobbyist.  There   were   legislative  counsel   or                                                                    
     legislative  agents  and  both  the  lobbyist  and  the                                                                    
     employer  were required  to register.  That requirement                                                                    
     was expressed  as 'whoever employs  a person to  act as                                                                    
     counsel  or agent  to promote,  advocate or  oppose the                                                                    
     passage  or  defeat by  the  legislature  of any  bill,                                                                    
     resolution  or  legislative  measure or  the  executive                                                                    
     approval or  veto thereof  or to act  in any  manner as                                                                    
     legislative  counsel or  agent in  connection with  any                                                                    
     legislation.'                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     So it was a  fairly cumbersome explanation. legislation                                                                    
     lobbyists appeared before  committees to make arguments                                                                    
     and  examine witnesses  and they  acted and  advised on                                                                    
     specific  legislation.  Agent lobbyists  were  employed                                                                    
     for  any purpose  in connection  with any  legislation.                                                                    
     The  registration fee  in those  days was  $5 and  that                                                                    
     money went to the District Historical Library Fund.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Public  and  municipal  officials  and  employees  were                                                                    
     exempt in 1913 as were  people invited to appear before                                                                    
     the Legislature or its  committees and those exemptions                                                                    
     are still in effect in the current law.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Also,  in  1913  was  a   provision  stating  that  the                                                                    
     lobbying law  was not  to be  construed to  prevent any                                                                    
     legislator from discussing  with their constituents the                                                                    
     advisability  of any  legislation.  At  that time,  the                                                                    
     provision was unique  in the United States.  As late as                                                                    
     1960,  it still  didn't  appear in  federal  or in  any                                                                    
     other state's lobbying law.  This provision is retained                                                                    
     in our current law.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     There  were no  definitions in  1913. Those  didn't get                                                                    
     added until 1976. In 1949,  they amended to qualify the                                                                    
     requirement of  who had to  register as a  lobbyist and                                                                    
     what  they added  was whoever  being a  person being  a                                                                    
     corporation  'engages or  assigned  any person  already                                                                    
     regularly  employed  by  said person,  either  with  or                                                                    
     without additional compensation' and  then they went on                                                                    
     and  talked  about  retaining   somebody  that  was  an                                                                    
     outside person.  That requirement  - that  any employee                                                                    
     who was assigned to lobby  must register as a lobbyist,                                                                    
     continued until the Act was rewritten in 1976.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Also, in '49  they added provisions that  no person can                                                                    
     lobby before  registering and that  compensation cannot                                                                    
     be  dependent  on  passage or  defeat  of  legislation.                                                                    
     Those last two provisions are also still in the law.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     In 1976, the entire law  was repealed and rewritten and                                                                    
     it  was   the  1976  law  that   added  the  qualifier,                                                                    
     substantial or  regular, which [is] the  subject of the                                                                    
     bill before us.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON said other states  have a variety of requirements for                                                               
an  employee  whose  job  duties   do  not  specifically  include                                                               
lobbying to  register as  a lobbyist.  In Hawaii,  employees must                                                               
register if  they lobby  in excess  of five hours  in a  month or                                                               
spend more than  $750 lobbying in that month.  In Connecticut, an                                                               
employee doesn't  have to register  if lobbying is limited  to no                                                               
more  than  five hours.  Wisconsin  requires  registration if  an                                                               
employee lobbies for  more than four days in  a six-month period.                                                               
Washington  State  defines  nine different  types  of  lobbyists.                                                               
Employees  are exempt  if they  limit their  lobbying to  no more                                                               
than four  days or  parts thereof  during any  three-month period                                                               
and their expenditures do not exceed $25.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
In Oregon,  lobbying activity is defined  to specifically include                                                               
attempting  to obtain  the good  will  of legislative  officials.                                                               
Employees are exempt  if they lobby less than 24  hours and spend                                                               
less  than  $100 during  any  calendar  quarter. In  Arizona  and                                                               
Idaho,  employees have  to  register if  they  receive income  or                                                               
reimbursement  of $250  or  more attributable  to  lobbying in  a                                                               
calendar  quarter.  Idaho,  Vermont   and  Virginia  all  require                                                               
employees  to  register  if  they  receive  or  expend  a  yearly                                                               
aggregate of  $500 in compensation or  expenditures for lobbying.                                                               
Montana  exempts employees  whose  reimbursable  expenses do  not                                                               
exceed $1,000 per year, although  there is current legislation to                                                               
raise that limit to $2,500.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
In  West  Virginia, the  exemption  is  a little  different.  The                                                               
exemption  is  for  employees  who   limit  their  activities  to                                                               
attending  group social  functions  and make  no expenditures  in                                                               
connection with lobbying.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Kentucky's laws  are very different.  Employees have  to register                                                               
if  they  lobby on  a  substantial  basis. Substantial  basis  is                                                               
defined as  contacts which are  intended to influence  a decision                                                               
that  involve one  or more  disbursements  of state  funds in  an                                                               
amount of at least $5,000 a year.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KEMPTON related  that prior  to introduction  of SB  89, the                                                               
commission was looking  at increasing the number of  hours in the                                                               
regulatory definition  of substantial  or regular.  They consider                                                               
16 hours  in a 30-day period  to be a reasonable  definition. The                                                               
commission's other  concern is  with the  definition of  (B) that                                                               
says,  "A person  who represents  one's self  as engaging  in the                                                               
influencing  of   legislative  or  administrative  action   as  a                                                               
business  occupation or  profession."   The concern  is with  the                                                               
definition  of  a lobbyist  as  "a  person who  represents  one's                                                               
self." No professional lobbyist  represents himself or herself as                                                               
a lobbyist.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   SEEKINS   interrupted  to   say   he   thought  she   was                                                               
misinterpreting   that  definition.   Anyone   engaged  in   that                                                               
profession  is  advertising that  he  or  she is  a  professional                                                               
lobbyist.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON replied that she  understood that, but she was trying                                                               
to  explain   that  most  professional  lobbyists   do  not  call                                                               
themselves lobbyists;  they call themselves consultants  and they                                                               
call their  business consulting. They  do more for  their clients                                                               
than just lobby.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  interrupted to  ask if there  was a  definition in                                                               
regulation for  influencing legislative or  administrative action                                                               
that would clarify that.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON  replied there  is a  definition that  could possibly                                                               
clarify   that.  Because   consultants  do   other  things   like                                                               
monitoring  legislation,  strategizing,  etc.,  they  would  fall                                                               
under "A" unless "B" is also rewritten.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-16, SIDE B                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
MR.  JOE MATHIS,  Senior  Operations  Officer, NANA  Corporation,                                                               
supported  SB 89.  He said  he communicates  with legislators  to                                                               
ensure that his  interests and the interests  of Northwest Alaska                                                               
citizens  and businesses  are  protected. He  said  he finds  the                                                               
current APOC requirement  to register as a lobbyist  if you spend                                                               
four  hours  in a  30  day  period  communicating with  a  public                                                               
official to be unusually stringent  and incorrect. In addition to                                                               
the  time  limit,  APOC  chose   to  broadly  interpret  lobbying                                                               
activities  to  include  attending  a  reception  attended  by  a                                                               
legislator.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
He  said that  AS  24.25.171 says  a person  must  register as  a                                                               
lobbyist if  a substantial or  regular portion of  activities for                                                               
which  the person  receives compensation  is for  the purpose  of                                                               
influencing legislative or administrative  actions. He said there                                                               
is  no way  four  hours in  a  30 day  period  could represent  a                                                               
substantial or regular portion of  the activities for which he is                                                               
paid and  he's not  a lobbyist. Many  businesses in  Alaska can't                                                               
afford  to hire  a full-time  lobbyist, and  even if  his company                                                               
could, he said he is often the  best person to tell how an action                                                               
might affect NANA Development Corporation.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MATHIS said  he  doesn't believe  it  is appropriate  public                                                               
policy to create onerous requirements  that do nothing to protect                                                               
the public's  interest, but  he firmly  believes that  people who                                                               
derive  their  livelihood  from  lobbying  activities  should  be                                                               
registered as lobbyists.  He isn't sure the 80 hours  in SB 89 is                                                               
the right amount  of time and noted that he  also supports HB 106                                                               
on the same issue.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. MATHIS  stated he was going  to testify next as  the owner of                                                               
the Montana  Creek Campground and  a volunteer on the  United Way                                                               
Board, the American Red Cross,  Alaska Support Industry Alliance,                                                               
Arctic  Power   Board,  Ocean  View  Community   Council,  Alaska                                                               
Campground  Owners Association  and  a volunteer  for the  Prince                                                               
William Sound  response team. All  of those activities,  with the                                                               
exception  of   the  Montana  Creek  Campground,   are  volunteer                                                               
activities and take him to Juneau many times a year.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  called an at-ease  from 2:35  - 2:37 p.m.  He came                                                               
back on  the record and  announced that  APOC said four  hours is                                                               
too restrictive. He  said this kind of  volunteer activity, where                                                               
his company  is paying him as  part of the community  service and                                                               
gets some  benefit, is in  a gray area. Strict  interpretation of                                                               
the  regulations could  count that  time toward  the four  hours,                                                               
which is why they are trying to expand the definition.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DICK  CATTANACH,   Executive  Director,  Associated  General                                                               
Contractors  of Alaska  (AGC), said  one of  the cornerstones  of                                                               
democracy  is  citizen  participation  and each  year  AGC  flies                                                               
members  to Juneau  to meet  with  legislators. It  is a  two-day                                                               
event with a  reception in the evening and  there is face-to-face                                                               
contact with legislators  for 10 - 12 hours. That  would make all                                                               
the people that traveled to Juneau  this year in violation of the                                                               
law. He is certain it is  not the intent to make Alaskan citizens                                                               
into criminals.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  said they are  currently considering  a definition                                                               
of 40 hours  in any calendar month. He asked  if Mr. Cattanach if                                                               
he thought that was a reasonable number.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CATTANACH replied  it is  acceptable  90% of  the time,  but                                                               
there might be someone who comes  down from AGC in early February                                                               
and then comes  down again with the Chamber  in mid-February and,                                                               
all  of a  sudden,  they're  bumping up  against  that limit.  He                                                               
thought the  original bill is  aimed at someone who  is promoting                                                               
certain  legislation. He  opined  there may  be  problems with  a                                                               
strict interpretation of 40 hours.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   SEEKINS  asked   if  language   that  says   face-to-face                                                               
representation would make it clearer.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CATTANACH said  that  would  be much  better.  He noted,  "I                                                               
wouldn't have any trouble with the 20 hours at that point."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROOKE MILES,  Director, Alaska  Public Offices  Commission,                                                               
said she was available to answer questions.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS noted that a  company named Agrium wanted the state                                                               
to contribute $11 million to  its coffers to support its business                                                               
this  year.  He asked  whether  Agrium  executives registered  as                                                               
lobbyists   when  they   sought   support   for  legislation   by                                                               
Representative  Chenault   or  did  they  come   with  charitable                                                               
organizations to talk about charities and their business.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MILES  deferred   to  Ms.  Kempton  who   was  handling  the                                                               
registrations and had the most up-to-date information.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  advised that Agrium's registered  lobbyist, a hired                                                               
consulting firm, visited him and he  spent a few minutes with one                                                               
of the executives.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  ELLIS  asked  if  he knew  whether  the  executives  had                                                               
registered.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON  responded that Lisa  Parker, Executive  Director for                                                               
Agrium,  registers  every  year  and  is  usually  Agrium's  sole                                                               
lobbyist, but this year the company also hired Patten Boggs.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS asked  what kind of a report a  lobbyist would have                                                               
to provide if one spoke to him.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON  replied lobbyists don't  have to do that.  His staff                                                               
might  keep  records,  but  they   are  not  required  to  report                                                               
meetings.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  asked if it is  true that there is  no requirement                                                               
for him as a legislator or a  lobbyist to report to anyone who he                                                               
talks to about anything.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON  replied there  is no requirement  for him  to report                                                               
his meetings to APOC.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS asked how the law  serves notice to the public that                                                               
Agrium is trying to get an $11 million contract.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON  explained that the  employer reports  any additional                                                               
monies spent on  lobbying activities on the  employer report that                                                               
is not reported on the  registered lobbyist report on schedule B.                                                               
If the  employer sent  other executives  to the  Legislature, the                                                               
employer would have to report when  they came, who came, who they                                                               
met with and what it cost.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS asked  if  it is  true that  the  lobbyist is  not                                                               
required to report that.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KEMPTON replied  that  is true  and it's  also  true on  the                                                               
federal level.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS said the best  way to notify people who legislators                                                               
talked to is to put it on their websites.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON agreed.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  asked if that  would be  better than what  is done                                                               
now.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KEMPTON replied  it depends  on  what you  think the  public                                                               
wants to  know. In 1976,  the Legislature felt the  public wanted                                                               
to know  how much  is spent  on lobbying  and on  which subjects,                                                               
including bill numbers.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  asked what if a  lobbyist is trying to  get a bill                                                               
introduced.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON  explained that  would fall  under the  broad subject                                                               
category. Federal law  does not require a lobbyist  to report who                                                               
he met with either.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT commented that the  $100 fee and the paperwork                                                               
are pretty  minimal, but  he questioned the  real purpose  of the                                                               
other restrictions on the person's  activities. If the public has                                                               
full  disclosure  of  the  money   a  person  gave  to  someone's                                                               
campaign,   it's  already   capped  at   between  $100-$500   and                                                               
disclosed.  For  instance, a  volunteer  from  United Way  has  a                                                               
limited  ability to  participate  in the  political process  just                                                               
like  every other  Alaskan does.  That is  more onerous  than the                                                               
$100 to him.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR ELLIS said that the  $100-$500 contribution isn't the big                                                               
fish; it's that lobbyists can't hold fundraisers for candidates.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT added  that they can't give  a contribution of                                                               
any size.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS noted that the  rest of the lobbyist's family could                                                               
give a fundraiser or contribute.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. KEMPTON  commented that the  prohibition on  lobbyists giving                                                               
to  candidates  outside  of  their   district  was  part  of  the                                                               
citizen's   initiative  in   1974  that   rewrote  the   campaign                                                               
disclosure. It was not part of the lobbying law.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS.  PAM LABOLLE,  President, Alaska  State Chamber  of Commerce,                                                               
said  she  supports  CSSB  89(JUD)  because  it  creates  a  more                                                               
reasonable  threshold  for  establishing who  is  a  professional                                                               
lobbyist  and   it  clarifies  the  definition   of  "communicate                                                               
directly."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:55 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS said there are  some suggestions to further clarify                                                               
"communicate     directly,"    "influencing     legislative    or                                                               
administrative action" and what a lobbyist means.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  asked for APOC's  position on a  person being                                                               
able to participate in campaigns.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MILES  responded  that was  discussed  at  the  commission's                                                               
meeting  in  Juneau  last  week.   All  five  commission  members                                                               
approved removing from  the campaign disclosure law  in AS 15.13,                                                               
the prohibition  of a  lobbyist giving  a lawful  contribution to                                                               
any candidate of her or his choice                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked  if they would be changing  the law from                                                               
a Cadillac to a Chevrolet if they adopted that change.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. MILES said the Commissioner doesn't believe so.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  asked  Ms.  Miles  to  forward  the  Commission's                                                               
recommendations  to the  committee  and put  the  bill aside  for                                                               
future action.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
                SB 155-PREDATOR CONTROL PROGRAMS                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
CHAIR SEEKINS  announced SB  155 to be  up for  consideration and                                                               
said the  committee substitute  clarifies how  the Board  of Game                                                               
can authorize  airborne shooting of  predators and adds  that the                                                               
board shall  establish predator reduction objectives  and limits;                                                               
methods  and means  to  be  employed; and  who  is authorized  to                                                               
participate.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked why wolf, fox or lynx was dropped.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  responded  that  is an  oversight  and  could  be                                                               
corrected.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  motioned to adopt CSSB  155(JUD)\H, 4/4/03 as                                                               
the working document. There was no objection.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.   MATT  ROBUS,   Acting   Director,   Division  of   Wildlife                                                               
Conservation, Alaska  Department of Fish and  Game (ADF&G), urged                                                               
the  committee  to  consider referencing  objectives  established                                                               
under the  intensive management law,  in 5 AAC 92.108,  which was                                                               
deleted.  He  pointed  out  that it's  important  to  have  those                                                               
objectives  for  the  beginning of  something  as  important  and                                                               
controversial as  a predator control program.  The objectives are                                                               
very rigorous.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS  referred to page 1,  lines 11-13 and advised  that the                                                               
department would oppose reducing the  role of the Commissioner in                                                               
making  the  decision to  go  forward  with a  predation  control                                                               
program. He said that provision  allowed the Commissioner to make                                                               
a  finding in  the  case  in game  management  unit  19D East  at                                                               
McGrath.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS asked  why he  thought  it was  important for  the                                                               
Commissioner to  give a  written finding  to what  the biologists                                                               
have already testified to.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied the biologists  can certainly establish where a                                                               
particular  prey population  sits with  respect to  the different                                                               
objectives,  but  in the  end,  it's  the administrator  of  that                                                               
department  and  the  administration  in general  that  needs  to                                                               
decide whether to  commit the funds and resources to  carry out a                                                               
program.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  asked if  the finding letter  would also  give the                                                               
Commissioner the  opportunity to  override the  Board of  Game by                                                               
"pocket-vetoing" it.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROBUS  replied  that  is  true;  the  Commissioner  has  the                                                               
discretion  to  follow through  with  a  recommendation from  the                                                               
Board of Game.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS said  the board makes decisions  based on testimony                                                               
from ADF&G and  asked why the Commissioner should  still have the                                                               
right to veto the program.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied it is  his understanding that the Commissioner,                                                               
as the head of  the department, has to be the  person to make the                                                               
decision as to whether a program  is going to go or not. Language                                                               
on page 2  (e) creates a problem, but having  the board establish                                                               
objectives  for  such  a program  is  appropriate.  Recently,  in                                                               
McGrath,  the board  gave the  administration a  list of  methods                                                               
from which to choose and he  believes it would be the executive's                                                               
decision as to how to proceed.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS said  Mr.  Robus  was saying  in  effect that  the                                                               
executive should be able to  override the appointed Board of Game                                                               
on methods, means, limits, etc. by simply not writing a letter.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROBUS   responded  he  is   only  saying  that  it   is  the                                                               
Commissioner  of  the Department  of  Fish  and Game  who  should                                                               
accept  the  recommendation  from   the  board,  assess  all  the                                                               
factors, and  then make  a determination  as to  what his  or her                                                               
department is going to proceed to do.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  noted the Governor  said department  employees and                                                               
assets were  not to be used  in the McGrath area  to provide wolf                                                               
control this  year and that  the local people  have to do  it. He                                                               
didn't  think  there  was  language  forcing  the  department  to                                                               
actually fund or execute the program.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied  that his understanding is that Title  16 is in                                                               
the department's jurisdiction.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS said, "On how to expend your dollars, correct?"                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROBUS  replied,  "Correct,  but   also  how  to  mount  game                                                               
management programs."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS asked  if that wasn't the prerogative  of the Board                                                               
of Game.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS  said he  understands that  the Board  of Game  has the                                                               
prerogative  of establishing  regulations for  the management  of                                                               
fish and game.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked  if he was familiar with art.  VIII, sec. 4 of                                                               
the Constitution  that requires  management on a  sustained yield                                                               
basis that is subject to preference amongst beneficial uses.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied that he is familiar with that.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  said he  understands that  the Legislature  has the                                                               
constitutional responsibility to manage  the public trust of fish                                                               
and game  and they delegate  that responsibility to the  Board of                                                               
Game. The department provides information  to and carries out the                                                               
board's policies.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS said that is correct.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked  why the department feels it  should have veto                                                               
power over policy  setting that the Legislature  delegates to the                                                               
Board of Game.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS  replied he  is saying that  the Commissioner  needs to                                                               
have the ability to choose  between all the different things that                                                               
have to  be done across the  state and, after a  quick reading of                                                               
the  CS, it  seems like  an  automatic pipeline  into a  predator                                                               
control program.  The department might  not be able to  deal with                                                               
everything  that  goes through  such  an  automatic process.  The                                                               
Commissioner needs to  be able to direct how  the department will                                                               
conduct its work.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  asked  if  that  isn't  how  the  department  has                                                               
essentially stopped all predator control in the state of Alaska.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS  submitted that it  wasn't necessarily  the department,                                                               
but there has been a lot of frustration from different quarters.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS said  the instructions came from on  high, but they                                                               
effectively blocked the  recommendations of the Board  of Game to                                                               
institute one.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN said  he thought  the issue  at hand  was the  veto                                                               
power in  current statute.  He asked  whether the  Legislature is                                                               
within its  right if  it wants to  fund helicopters  for predator                                                               
control and delegate the authority to do that.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS responded  that he thought it was  within their ability                                                               
to say that.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT asked  if there  is a  problem with  deleting                                                               
wolverine, fox and lynx on page  1, because they don't bring down                                                               
any big game animals.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied  he is correct and the animal  they are talking                                                               
about in  predator control programs  is the wolf. He  didn't know                                                               
why the other species were included in the first place.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT asked  if he  referenced  AS 16.05.255(g)  on                                                               
page 1, line 14 to keep it in the statute.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROBUS replied  yes, "That  is the  portion of  the intensive                                                               
management law that  requires the board to  establish harvest and                                                               
population objectives for identified prey populations."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-17, SIDE A                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
3:17 p.m.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked  if his suggestion could  be achieved by                                                               
inserting the bracketed language on line 13 after "board."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS said he thought that would work.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  said according to  a legal drafter,  the last                                                               
initiative  that  passed said  all  same  day airborne  had  been                                                               
outlawed, but that is not the way the statute works.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied that is their interpretation.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Current statute does not  prohibit participation by the                                                                    
     public   in  an   aerial  or   same-day  airborne-based                                                                    
     predator  control program.  It  bans same-day  airborne                                                                    
     hunting,  but it  appears...the first  section in  this                                                                    
     statute  allows   the  public  to  participate   in  an                                                                    
     approved predation control program.  The second part of                                                                    
     the  statute   allows  the  department   without  going                                                                    
     through  all the  procedures of  the  request from  the                                                                    
     board,  the finding  by the  Commissioner, to  go ahead                                                                    
     and do a predation control program.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT said he has  received e-mails charging that we                                                               
are  stripping the  will of  the people,  but clearly  the people                                                               
didn't prohibit that when they amended the law in 2000.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     My  understanding of  what the  referendum did  in 2000                                                                    
     was to strip away the  words "and agents" in two places                                                                    
     in the  second part of  the statute. Up to  that point,                                                                    
     there was a way for  the department to associate people                                                                    
     with our operation  as agents and go  ahead and conduct                                                                    
     a predator  control program  without going  through the                                                                    
     hurdles represented in  the first part of  the law. The                                                                    
     referendum  took those  words away  so that  the second                                                                    
     pathway,  the least  restricted  pathway, is  available                                                                    
     only to the department.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN  said  he  has   been  told  more  than  once  that                                                               
biologists   are   not   allowed  to   publicly   express   their                                                               
professional opinion  on predator  control. He  asked if  that is                                                               
true or false.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     To the best  of my recollection and  knowledge, I don't                                                                    
     remember any formal, any gag  order. I think what often                                                                    
     happens in  these situations is we've  got professional                                                                    
     wildlife  biologists that  are trained  in manipulating                                                                    
     populations  to  produce  objectives and  at  the  same                                                                    
     time,  we're  members  of an  organization  that  works                                                                    
     under  policies  set by  the  people  up the  chain  of                                                                    
     command.   There  is   sometimes  significant   tension                                                                    
     between those  things. I think  that on any  given year                                                                    
     or  month  there  may  be  biologists  who  have  their                                                                    
     opinions on biological situations  that may be somewhat                                                                    
     at  odds  with  policies,  but  that's  been  happening                                                                    
     through  every administration.  I've been  through four                                                                    
     or five administrations.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
[END OF TAPE - 03-17, SIDE B blank]                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-18, SIDE A                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
SENATOR  OGAN said  his  point  is that  a  number  of times  the                                                               
Legislature  tried  to  make the  administration  carry  out  the                                                               
policy of  the Legislature, but the  administration always seemed                                                               
to have the ability  to end-run it. If there is  a gag order from                                                               
above, they  are not  going to  be able to  manage on  a strictly                                                               
biological basis. He suggested language to address that.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS responded:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     As long as  I'm involved at headquarters and  as far as                                                                    
     I  know,  we have  always  allowed  and encouraged  our                                                                    
     professional staff  to give their  professional opinion                                                                    
     to  the  Board  of  Game.   We  do  not  give  doctored                                                                    
     information and  we do not  tell people they  can't say                                                                    
     things that they believe are facts in the case.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. TOM  SCARBOROUGH, Fairbanks resident,  said he  supports CSSB                                                               
155  and it  incorporates most  of his  suggestions. He  said the                                                               
Governor  and department  had not  done  what the  Board of  Game                                                               
wanted with  wolf control. He  said: "It  appears to me  that the                                                               
Board of Game  is an extended arm of the  Legislature and carries                                                               
out the Legislature's trust responsibilities."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCARBOROUGH  asserted the legislation clarifies  the issue by                                                               
clearly stating that  it is the Board of Game's  decision to fund                                                               
it. He noted two Alaska Supreme  Court decisions in 1976 and 1983                                                               
along those  lines. He asserted  that the system  was manipulated                                                               
by  the past  and current  ADF&G  staff to  prevent any  predator                                                               
control. He remarked:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     This resulted  in a finding by  Commissioner Duffy that                                                                    
     predator population  objectives have been met  [in 19D]                                                                    
     and thus no  wolf control is needed. This  is at direct                                                                    
     odds  with   hype  coming  from  ADF&G   on  low  moose                                                                    
     populations  in  19D East...The  population  objectives                                                                    
     are one moose per  square mile. Pre-year-2000, that was                                                                    
     three moose per square mile....                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
He didn't  find anything in  statute that gives the  Governor the                                                               
authority to  dictate methods and  means over which the  Board of                                                               
Game has  full authority. He  suggested that language on  page 2,                                                               
lines  19-20,   "airborne  or  same  day   aerial  shooting",  is                                                               
redundant. The board is given that authority in section 1(a).                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROD ARNO, Wasilla resident, said:                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     ...After  nine  years  of having  intensive  management                                                                    
     legislation,  I have  yet to  see one  wolf controlled.                                                                    
     Clearly,  the problem  here is  with the  Commissioner.                                                                    
     It's   not   with   the    department   or   with   the                                                                    
     Legislature...                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
He said, "I  think this substitute is a band-aid,  but if it will                                                               
get  it done,  if  it will  get one  wolf  controlled before  the                                                               
summer tourist season, I'll be thankful."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
He thought  the tourist  boycott threat is  a scam  and supported                                                               
the addition of section 2, even  though it is redundant. He noted                                                               
that the referendum from SB 267 only lost by 20,000 votes.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT referred  to how  the A  and B  sections work                                                               
together  and  asked  if  Mr.  Robus didn't  say  that  the  less                                                               
restrictive route was maintained for department personnel.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROBUS  responded  that was  his  understanding  of  existing                                                               
statute and he didn't think the CS took that away.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  said  the  A section  says  you  can't  take                                                               
airborne, "However,  the board may  authorize a  predator control                                                               
program involving shooting from the air."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
It doesn't  say for department  personnel only. He asked  if they                                                               
could contract  it out  or make  it available  to members  of the                                                               
general  public  to participate  in  a  predator control  program                                                               
spoken of in the A section.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     That's  what  I'm  meaning  by the  first  of  the  two                                                                    
     pathways. That's where the Board  of Game can establish                                                                    
     a  predator control  program  that  includes more  than                                                                    
     just  the department  and if  the Commissioner  makes a                                                                    
     finding under  the current statute that  predation is a                                                                    
     significant  factor involved  in  the  decline or  low-                                                                    
     level  of   the  herd  and  that   aerial  methods  are                                                                    
     appropriate  to  change  that, then  that  program  can                                                                    
     proceed with public people involved in some manner.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  said he thought  Mr. Robus indicated  that it                                                               
is only for department personnel.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS remarked only in the B section and said:                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     "...it never  took any alternative away  from the ADF&G                                                                    
     to  be able  to do  predator control,  because all  the                                                                    
     department had to do was give  a letter to the Board of                                                                    
     Game certifying  the findings and they  could have used                                                                    
     agents...employees...private individuals,  based on the                                                                    
     decision of  the Board  of Game at  that time.  Is that                                                                    
     not correct?                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS  responded in regard to  19D East and the  request from                                                               
the board:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     ...recognizing at  that time that  department personnel                                                                    
     might not be includable in  the program, they asked the                                                                    
     Commissioner to make a finding  under the first part of                                                                    
     the  statute  to  certify the  three  things  that  the                                                                    
     statute requires  - predation being important  and that                                                                    
     aerial  methods  would  be appropriate,  etc.  And  the                                                                    
     Commissioner declined at that time  on the basis of the                                                                    
     fact  that that  population  objective  for that  moose                                                                    
     herd  had been  lowered as  part of  a compromise  at a                                                                    
     time   when   our    moose   survey   information   was                                                                    
     unfortunately  predicting   lower  numbers   than  were                                                                    
     actually there.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  said if  they could be  having a  predator control                                                               
program right  now without  the letter  from the  Commissioner if                                                               
the proposed CS were in effect.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROBUS replied  yes, the CS would put them  in that mode, but,                                                               
"The  original  bill, if  it  allowed  them to  consider  harvest                                                               
objectives, would allow the Commissioner  to make a finding to go                                                               
ahead with the program there, also."                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  said  he  was  not  pointing  a  finger  at  this                                                               
particular  Commissioner  at  this  time.   He  held  SB  155  in                                                               
committee and adjourned the meeting at approximately 3:40 p.m.                                                                  

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