Legislature(2001 - 2002)
01/24/2001 01:35 PM Senate HES
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE
January 24, 2001
1:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Lyda Green, Chair
Senator Loren Leman, Vice Chair
Senator Gary Wilken
Senator Jerry Ward
Senator Bettye Davis
MEMBERS ABSENT
All Members Present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
OVERVIEW BY COMMISSIONER KAREN PERDUE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
AND SOCIAL SERVICES
WITNESS REGISTER
Commissioner Karen Perdue
Department of Health &
Social Services
PO Box 110601
Juneau, AK 99801-0601
Mr. Jim Nordlund, Director
Division of Public Assistance
Department of Health &
Social Services
PO Box 110601
Juneau, AK 99801-0601
Ms. Angela Salerno
Department of Health &
Social Services
PO Box 110601
Juneau, AK 99801-0601
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 01-1, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIR LYDA GREEN called the Senate Health, Education & Social
Services Committee meeting to order at 1:35 p.m. Present were
Senators Leman, Wilken, Ward and Green. CHAIR GREEN noted that the
committee would hear a presentation about the Department of Health
and Social Services today.
COMMISSIONER KAREN PERDUE, Department of Health and Social Services
(DHSS) reviewed the information provided in both slide show form
and in booklet form, entitled, "Welfare Reform: What's Next,"
prepared by DHSS. Following is a synopsis of that presentation.
DHSS has been holding community meetings on Welfare Reform.
Meetings have been held in Kenai, Fairbanks, Mat-Su and Anchorage,
and the last meeting will be held in Juneau next week.
The Administration and Legislature have been working on this issue
for a number of years. In 1995, the first blueprint for welfare
reform was developed. That blueprint contained five objectives.
DHSS held 14 meetings across the state to ask people what the new
state law should do. One common response was that communities
wanted more local responsibility for managing welfare reform and
another was that welfare reform should encourage people to work.
The blueprint was revised in March, 1996 with a new theme of moving
Alaskans from welfare into jobs so that they could support their
families and to maintain a safety net for those truly in need.
Senator Green and DHSS worked together on the issue and legislation
was signed into law in June of 1996. The Alaska Temporary
Assistance Program (ATAP) was established. The key components of
that law are a five-year limit on benefits for adults, mandatory
work activities, minor parent requirements; benefit reductions,
child support provisions, policies to "make work pay," and
establish family self sufficiency plans via contracts with the
families. The federal law was enacted shortly after and it pretty
much mirrored the state law. The federal law established the
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) program and did away
with the Aid to Families with Dependent Children. The federal
program is now funded through block grants given to the states.
That way, if the programs improved the states could keep the money,
if not, the states were left with the risk. The concept behind the
block grants was to maximize the state's flexibility. The federal
law will be reauthorized next year.
It took DHSS a full year to get the new state and federal laws
implemented. DHSS asked the State to reinvest any savings in child
care assistance and job training programs. DHSS started doing a
lot of community contracting with non-profit agencies. DHSS
adopted a "work first" policy, which has been somewhat
controversial. Welfare recipients are given short-term training
skills with the intent of getting them employed quickly. Once
employed, recipients look at what other kinds of skills they want
to develop.
DHSS did a lot of work on job development. It formed a Work Star
committee, which is an employer directed committee, to recognize
employers for their contributions. Separate offices for welfare no
longer exist - they have been combined with other service agencies
to provide "one-stop" shopping. Soon after came the federal
Workforce Investment Act, which continued the trend toward
workforce investment boards at the local level.
Three organizations have stepped forward and taken the risk of
welfare reform: the Tanana Chiefs Conference (TCC), the Association
of Village Council Presidents (AVCP), and the Tlingit-Haida Central
Council (THCC). Those organizations are taking care of benefit
eligibility, payments and job placement.
Regarding the demographics of welfare recipients, while the overall
number has decreased, the number of child-only cases has increased.
Those children are generally in some sort of informal foster care.
CHAIR GREEN asked if the number of child-only cases is expected to
remain static.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said it is and that those amount to about 1200
cases.
CHAIR GREEN asked if there will be no reason for those children to
go off of the program until they reach the age of 18 unless they
are adopted.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said that is correct.
Regarding family size, COMMISSIONER PERDUE said that at least two-
thirds of the cases are made up of families of no more than three
people, including adults. Single parent families are also subject
to the work requirements. She discussed distribution by geographic
area, age of children and adults on the program, ethnic origin and
the length of time that recipients stay on the program. She noted
that over 1,000 families are nearing the five-year time limit.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE discussed the results of welfare reform. The
caseload has continually declined since 1994 in almost every
jurisdiction. DHSS contracted with the University of Alaska to do
a "leaver" study. About 700 people who are no longer on welfare
have been interviewed extensively. About 30 percent of leavers
have returned to the program within two years. The average wage of
a former welfare recipient is $10.52. More than one-third of the
leaver families have a second working adult in the household.
Community support systems, such as churches and food banks, are
being used more by recipients. Alaska Native families are leaving
at the same rate and 71 percent agreed that there should be a time
limit.
Alaska ranks eighth in the percent of recipients who are employed
and seventh in the average number of hours those people are
employed. No state ranks higher when both of those measures are
combined. Alaska ranks 15th in its percentage of adults involved
in all work activities, which includes volunteer work, and 6th in
the number of hours spent at those activities. Again, no state
ranks higher in both of those measures.
Alaska has done two things with its child care spending. It has
replaced all of the state money with welfare savings and it
provides child care for applicants so that they can go to job
interviews. Child care issues are numerous: licensing,
availability for different ages and during different times of the
day.
DHSS estimates 349 families will have reached the five-year limit
in July, 2002. By July 2003, about 1103 families will exceed the
time limit. The law allows for a 20 percent exemption for the
current caseload. DHSS will be asking the Legislature whether it
should revamp the 20 percent and establish criteria rather use a
percentage. A portion of the 20 percent of recipients who will be
exempted will most likely be grandparents, people with
disabilities, domestic violence victims, and people with disabled
children. The remainder of the 20 percent will be made up of
people who need extra time. DHSS wants to discuss this policy
question with the Legislature.
DHSS wants to continue to reinvest the federal savings to help
people who are about to hit the time limit but have substantial
barriers to employment, such as mental illness or learning
disabilities.
CHAIR GREEN asked if DHSS's request to reinvest federal savings to
provide intensive work services will be a recurring request. She
noted that another group will be meeting the time limit next year
and expressed concern that the Legislature did envision saving
money from welfare reform.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said there has been a substantial savings in
state funds. She pointed out that when reauthorization of the
federal law comes up, Congress will ask what should be done with
the block grant money that is sitting in the states and being used
for the other purposes. How President Bush comes out on this issue
will be important.
CHAIR GREEN asked if DHSS has partnered with the commission that
supports employment of people with disabilities and similar boards
in this endeavor. She asked if DHSS duplicates any of the
activities of those groups.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said DHSS has seen an increase in the number of
people who have been designated as disabled. She said the board
for the employment of people with disabilities works with the
Department of Labor. Their direction is to promote work for people
with disabilities. She said there is a lot of overlap to talk
about. There has been an effort to allow people, through state
laws, to work without losing all of their benefits.
CHAIR GREEN noted the Legislature passed a law a couple of years
ago that allows people to work without losing health insurance
benefits. She commented that she was incredibly disappointed when
she read a recent article in the Anchorage Daily News because the
writer took some very good information about the success of welfare
reform but zeroed in on the 30 percent of recipients who go on and
off of the program.
SENATOR LEMAN stated that DHSS has expressed concern about the need
to maintain a safety net for welfare recipients. He noted that his
idea of providing for people's needs is that the first wave of
support should be from family, neighbors, friends, church groups,
social clubs, and that DHSS should be the backstop. He asked what
DHSS is doing to insure that when people ask for assistance, they
are trying to use other resources available. He felt other
resources are often better because they are closer to home and, in
many cases, closer to self-responsibility. He asked if any such
effort occurs during the interview process.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said that during the interview process, the
temporary nature of welfare is stressed, as well as the fact that
applicants should be thinking about getting a job and getting on
their feet right away. The intake workers can also use a system
called "diversion" in which people can choose not to get involved
in the whole process of welfare but instead can get assistance for
a specific problem, such as a utility bill or temporary food
stamps. She pointed out that her reaction is that assistance is a
complicated enough system that people with another alternative use
it.
MR. JIM NORDLUND, Director of the Division of Public Assistance,
DHSS, explained that DHSS tries to divert clients initially but
doesn't directly ask clients about their use of faith based, and
other, organizations. One very good organization is named Love
Inc. in Fairbanks. It has a car give-away program for people who
need transportation. He noted that President Bush is interested in
pursuing that approach so more activity may take place in that
area.
SENATOR LEMAN encouraged Mr. Nordlund to pursue that route because
he believes that welfare works best when help is close to home. He
believes that the DHSS program should take the best features of
other successful programs. He then asked if DHSS has done any
comparisons of the contract services in the Fairbanks and Bethel
areas to see if the results from the intakes are comparable to
those in other areas. He questioned whether those providers are
trained equally and whether the results are comparable.
MR. NORDLUND said the TCC program is only two years old and its
caseload has declined in a similar manner to the rest of the state.
The new programs have had some start up issues but overall they
have done amazingly well.
SENATOR LEMAN asked if the employees in the intermediate management
level have some experience in this field.
MR. NORDLUND said that some of the organizations have actually
hired employees from DHSS and paid them more.
SENATOR LEMAN said he hopes the net result is a savings to the
State.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said she thinks welfare reform is challenging
because it is not easy to find great jobs for recipients and also
contractors must wrestle with the reasons for dependency and with
economic development issues. She noted it will not be easy to do
welfare reform in rural Alaska.
CHAIR GREEN noted that Senator Taylor joined the committee.
SENATOR WILKEN asked what barriers prevent recipients from getting
a job.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE responded substance abuse, lack of basic skills
and low self esteem.
SENATOR WILKEN asked if the problem is not that the door is closed,
it is that the door is open but it is difficult for people to get
through it.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE agreed.
SENATOR WILKEN asked Commissioner Perdue to speak about a slide
entitled "Post Employment Exchange."
COMMISSIONER PERDUE explained that the idea behind that is to
prevent the 30 percent return rate by trying to provide people with
some support after they have been in the job place for a period of
time. There may come a time when those people are having second
thoughts about their skill levels. She pointed out that some of
the challenges of getting up in the morning, having no
transportation, getting a child to childcare and getting to work on
time are difficult.
SENATOR WARD asked what percentage of recipients will never get off
of welfare and whether there is a proposal to treat those
recipients differently so that the 20 percent exemption can be used
differently.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE thought that would be a good discussion to have
because there is a percentage of recipients who need more than
temporary assistance. Many other states are asking the same
question. DHSS would like to have that dialogue but right now it
is trying to give itself more flexibility within the five-year time
limit.
SENATOR WARD expressed concern that if five percent of recipients
will never be able to get off of welfare, that group's needs should
be addressed so that it can be removed from the 20 percent limit.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said one idea would be to take people out of
the 20 percent who will never get off of welfare.
SENATOR WARD said yes because otherwise, others will be shoved out
in order to keep people out who would never get out anyway. That
group should be put in a different program.
CHAIR GREEN said she understood that DHSS is working on legislation
to address that issue and would bring it to the Legislature.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said that is correct. She said that it has
been difficult for DHSS to accept the idea that some people will
have to drop off of the program. Each month, people will be
dropping off and there will be cases that DHSS will wish it could
have done more about. DHSS is looking for recipients who are doing
everything they can to comply but for one reason or another cannot
get on their feet so that those cases can be exempted.
SENATOR WARD repeated that if the exemption limit is 20 percent,
then the permanent recipients should be placed elsewhere to free up
that money for others.
MR. NORDLUND commented that other states have approached that
problem by moving the permanent recipients into another program
that is not considered temporary. DHSS is finding that some of the
folks should be placed in the federal social security program (SSI)
for disabled people because that program is not temporary.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE pointed out that the SSI program is not easy to
qualify for.
CHAIR GREEN asked if the SSI payments are comparable to TANF.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said they are.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that the SSI program is very difficult to
qualify for - it turns down about 75 percent of all applicants. He
has worked with constituents who try to get on that program. The
process is lengthy and difficult.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he has two concerns. First, he understands
that Senator Stevens came up with a waiver for the program. He
asked if that waiver is based on the economic viability of a
community and how a community gets the waiver.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE explained that a community can be exempt from
the five-year limit if unemployment is at 50 percent or more in the
community.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how unemployment is counted. He said in his
community a person fell off of the unemployment roll after 18
months and disappeared as a number. He asked if a village never
had employment how a survey would be done.
MR. NORDLUND explained that the federal law says the states can use
their own data to determine that unemployment rate. The federal
data does not measure the number of discouraged workers who move
away because there is no employment. DHSS has asked the Alaska
Department of Labor to use the census data to calculate what the
true unemployment rate is. They will determine the number of
people unemployed compared to the number of working aged adults in
a village.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he could request that such a survey be done
on his town.
MR. NORDLUND said yes.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that there seems to be a tremendous split
in the way this law is being interpreted. Southeast communities
have been hard hit by the loss of the timber economy and the
downturn in the fishing economy. Those people are expected to
leave and find a job elsewhere. They are no longer counted as
unemployed. Those people just disappear so consequently his
community is down to about seven percent unemployment right now.
TAPE 01-1, SIDE B
Number 2500
SENATOR TAYLOR said the people of Wrangell are expected to move and
find a job elsewhere while people in a rural village are expected
to stay there and get an exemption from the five-year limit because
they have never worked in the village. He said he finds that dual
system difficult in a society that is supposed to be treating
everyone equally.
CHAIR GREEN asked if that waiver contains a population factor or
whether it is determined only by prosperity and location.
MR. NORDLUND's response was inaudible.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said she didn't believe any of the communities
on the list were the size of Wrangell.
MR. NORDLUND said communities like Bethel are not exempt but the
surrounding villages are.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that the core of the problem is jobs and the
economy. If no jobs are available, welfare reform will not work.
Awhile back, the State of Massachusetts aggressively invested state
general funds to set up infrastructure and recruiting businesses.
The number of welfare recipients in the greater Boston area
decreased significantly. The amount invested was far less than the
amount saved. He asked when this State is going to develop
resources or assist resource based industries, other than big oil.
He pointed out that the folks in the villages selected particular
lands under ANILCA because of the timber on the lands but no one is
building roads to those lands, building fish hatcheries or doing
anything to enhance mining in those areas. In the meantime we have
passed the welfare reform act and insisted that everyone go to
work. He noted the single biggest cry he has heard in the villages
for ten years is: when will you bring some jobs here?
COMMISSIONER PERDUE replied that DHSS has never said that the
success of welfare reform could have happened to this degree
without a strong economy. She noted that the THCC has a finite
amount of money to work with, they have clients that are reaching
the five-year limit, they have a growing birth rate and only so
many slots so they have to get on an economic development agenda.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that if people want to get serious about
this issue, they need to look at the education budget across the
state and how many individual checks are being written by school
districts that employ the whole village when there really isn't
enough work to carry one person yet they have 10 or 15 employed.
He said he differs with the Commissioner on one subject, that being
the health of the economy. Had Alaska's economy been much worse,
it would have ranked at the bottom in the U.S. Personal income in
Alaska ranks 28th. It was always number one. Now it ranks 48th in
growth of personal income. He applauded DHSS for what it has done
with an impossible task and he offered to help but he cautioned
that it will take courage to find solutions next year.
SENATOR WARD asked how the Denali Commission is interacting with
welfare reform efforts regarding jobs.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said DHSS has not briefed the Denali Commission
on welfare reform but it would be a good idea to do that.
SENATOR WARD said it seems to him that the role of the Denali
Commission is to create jobs where there were none. He felt DHSS's
effort should be tied in with the Denali Commission. He asked if
the three Native agencies are going through the same drill DHSS has
gone through with its providers.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said she believes they are in some fashion.
She noted some of them only started in October.
SENATOR WARD said if this effort is not working in conjunction with
the Denali Commission whose charge it is to create jobs, then there
is a real possibility that the project will fail. Legislators will
then be criticized for not helping people who cannot get off of the
welfare program. He felt a larger discussion is important.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said the jobs that DHSS is looking at are jobs
for actual people with specific skills, rather than jobs for the
community. Therefore, the economic health of a community may
improve but the jobs may not be suitable for the person reaching
the five-year limit on welfare.
MR. NORDLUND stated the Denali Commission does have a charge to
help reduce welfare dependency. He noted DHSS has research from
the Denali Commission and hopes it does well because any sort of
economic development in rural Alaska is bound to benefit DHSS
clients to some degree.
SENATOR WARD stated there doesn't seem to be any coordination
between the two. He has talked to Bruce [indisc.] who is very
sympathetic to those people who cannot find jobs, yet that is his
charge, as well as the charge of others. He expressed concern that
we have that opportunity and the Denali Commission is not
restricted to one physical area of Alaska. They can expend funds
anywhere in Alaska.
CHAIR GREEN asked if the block grant program has been a good thing
for Alaska and whether DHSS's budget may be tighter if that funding
method changes.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said it has been beneficial for Alaska for
several reasons. First, Alaska had a high population bump. The
second issue is what would happen if there was a huge economic
downturn. There is a rainy day account but it has never been
appreciably used nationally. That question will come up during the
reauthorization discussions.
MR. NORDLUND explained that the high population increase is a big
issue for Alaska. The high population increase is 2.5 percent per
year since the block grant began in 1998. According to federal
law, it will be revert to the original level in the federal FY
2000. Therefore, next year's block grant will be $7 million less
than this year's. DHSS would like to appeal to Congress to at
least hold it at the FY01 level. If DHSS loses that $7 million, it
will mean programs in place will have to be defunded.
CHAIR GREEN asked if the amount had a time limit because Congress
expected the number of participants to decrease.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said she thinks it was a compromise and
Congress knew it was going to reauthorize the law so could review
it.
CHAIR GREEN asked how the faith-based organizations that have
worked with DHSS so far get involved.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE stated that one of DHSS's most successful
collaborations is Love Inc., which is a conglomeration of all of
the churches.
CHAIR GREEN asked how to "grow" more programs like that.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said that the United Way in Mat-Su is extremely
interested and plans to get in touch with Love Inc. She said, "We
need to take that kind of spirit that they have and expose it to
other communities."
SENATOR WARD asked for the name of the person in charge of Love
Inc.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE replied, "Terry Reichert (ph)." She said that
people can donate their cars to Love Inc. and get a tax exemption.
Then, mechanics donate time and fix the cars and the cars are
donated to individuals. She said it is a very popular program.
She said DHSS helps Love Inc. a little bit with equipment, like
radios, but they do not want a lot of help.
CHAIR GREEN commented that she thought that Alaska's original
welfare reform legislation had a provision that allowed a person
finishing a college degree to consider that as work hours for the
welfare program.
MR. NORDLUND said it is not specifically written in the law but
DHSS does give a certain amount of flexibility to case managers.
If a person was in the fourth year of a four year degree program,
the case worker would not insist that person quit school to meet
the work requirements for welfare.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE cautioned that the federal work requirement
doesn't count that as an accountable work activity. She said that
one of the big gaps she sees in welfare reform program is that it
has no stipends for people to go to school. There may be money
available for tuition, but there is nothing available for living
expenses.
CHAIR GREEN noted the amount for an Alaska student loan was
increased to $8500 per year. She asked if the Department of
Education now oversees childcare.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said that is correct.
CHAIR GREEN asked, had welfare reform had not been implemented,
what the total number of participants would be today.
COMMISSIONER PERDUE said that in the 1980s, when more jobs were
available, the welfare rolls didn't decline.
CHAIR GREEN agreed that the results have been even greater than had
the status quo remained. She asked if other states have had the
same difficulty with the 20 percent exemption.
MR. NORDLUND said many states have but they do not have an
expressed five-year limit in state law so they can spend state
funds beyond the five-year limit.
There being no further questions, CHAIR GREEN announced that the
Senate HESS Committee would hear SCR 2 and SB 19 (pending referral)
on Monday, January 29. On January 31, the committee will hear an
overview by the Department of Education and Early Childhood
Development and, on Saturday, January 27, Senate HESS will be
joining the House Special Committee on Education for a hearing on
the competency test. There being no further business to come
before the committee, CHAIR GREEN adjourned the meeting.
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