Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/22/1998 09:08 AM Senate HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE
April 22, 1998
9:08 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Gary Wilken, Chairman
Senator Loren Leman, Vice-Chairman
Senator Lyda Green
Senator Jerry Ward
Senator Johnny Ellis
MEMBERS ABSENT
None
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 353(HES) am
"An Act relating to adoption by reference in regulations; and
providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 367 am
"An Act relating to part-time public school students; and providing
for an effective date."
PASSED CSSB 367 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
HB 353 - No previous Senate action.
HB 367- See HESS minutes dated 4/17/98.
WITNESS REGISTER
John Cyr, President
National Education Association of Alaska (NEAA)
114 Second Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed to HB 367
Representative Fred Dyson
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 367
Lisa Torkelson
Aide to Representative Dyson
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on HB 367
Bruce Campbell
Aide to Representative Pete Kelly
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified for the sponsor of HB 353
Paul Grossi
Division of Workers' Compensation
Department of Labor
P.O. Box 25512
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5512
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 353 with a technical change
John B. Chenoweth
Assistant Attorney General
Department of Law
P.O. Box 110300
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding HB 353
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-37, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN WILKEN called the Senate Health, Education and Social
Services (HESS) Committee to order at 9:08 a.m. Present were
Senators Leman, Green and Chairman Wilken. The first order of
business before the committee was HB 367.
HB 367 - PART-TIME PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENT ENROLLMENT
CHAIRMAN WILKEN announced a committee substitute to HB 367 was
prepared.
SENATOR LEMAN moved to adopt SCSHB 367(HES), version B, as the
working document before the committee.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN explained language was added on page 1, line 14,
and page 2, lines 1-3, to address the issue of double counting. The
new language will prevent a student from being counted as more than
one FTE. This change has the approval of DOE and Representative
Dyson, the bill sponsor.
There being no objection to the adoption of SCSHB 367(HES),
CHAIRMAN WILKEN noted the motion carried.
Number 046
JOHN CYR, President of the National Education Association - Alaska
(NEAA), made the following comments about SCSHB 367(HES). When
this issue first surfaced last year, and a similar bill passed the
Legislature, NEA took no position on the bill. NEA does not oppose
private school students being allowed to attend public schools, as
long as the money follows those students. The problem NEA has with
this bill is the language on page 9 that states, "... or require
that part-time students be enrolled after full-time student
enrollment is completed." Mr. Cyr explained he taught advanced
placement U.S. history, which was a very competitive class with a
waiting list, at Wasilla High School. The class could not
accommodate all of the interested full-time students. That same
situation is occurring in a number of public high schools in Alaska
in honors and advanced placement classes. He thought it is only
fair that full-time students get first shot at those classes,
however, SCSHB 367(HES) gives a preference to students who attend
part-time. If that provision of the bill can be changed, NEA has
no problem with the bill.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN asked Mr. Cyr if the NEAA position paper he
submitted addresses that issue.
MR. CYR said the position paper does.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON joined committee members at the table.
SENATOR LEMAN referred to page 2 of the NEAA position paper, and
specifically to the section which read:
"This development causes us a concern over the break in the
law on separation of church and state. Article VII, Section
1, of our Constitution provides, 'No money shall be paid from
public funds for the direct benefit of any religious or other
private educational institution.'"
Senator Leman asked Mr. Cyr if he was defining that provision of
the Constitution as a law pertaining to the separation of church
and state.
MR. CYR replied, "I believe when it says, 'No money should be paid
from public funds for the direct benefit of any religious or other
private educational institution,' that does have to do with the
separation of church and state. It seems to me if we provide the
kind of benefit that we're talking about, and what it does is it
enhances the position of private schools. They don't have to
provide those kinds of honors' courses that they would otherwise
have to provide for their students. They can be taken in the
public school. We see that as a problem."
Number 119
SENATOR LEMAN commented he recently watched the finals basketball
game in the 3A championship between Eielson and Anchorage Christian
School. That game mutually benefitted both public and private
school students. He stated that mixture of students occurs in
other activities as well and that Alaska is well served when those
types of activities occur.
MR. CYR stated NEAA is supportive of private schools in that aspect
and it believes that parents should have the right to send their
child to private school, if they wish to do so. NEAA does not
believe it is appropriate for the state to provide benefits for
private school students that may supplant students in the public
schools. He emphasized if the classroom space was available, no
one would oppose this issue but public school students who compete
to get into classes might be turned away because a part-time
student wants to enroll.
SENATOR LEMAN stated the net result in Mr. Cyr's example would be
the same, provided the part-time student met the academic rigor.
MR. CYR said we do not know that. If the state wants to begin to
track and hold private schools responsible for curriculum and
grading decisions in the same way that public schools are held
responsible, then private schools will no longer be private.
Public school administrators do not know what an "A" or a "B" grade
means in another school. He added the process to get into some of
the upper level honors classes in public schools begins early.
SENATOR LEMAN pointed out that there are 94 part-time students in
the Anchorage School District out of 48,000, so the bill will apply
to a fairly small number of students. He believes we can advance
the level of education in Alaska by making language, chemistry, or
other classes available. If a student became a chemical engineer
and Alaska played a part in making that possible by providing
classes to part-time students, that would be consistent with the
objectives of providing for an education system in Alaska.
MR. CYR commented that this issue is about the problems some
parents have had with the Anchorage School District. He cautioned
that the approach taken in HB 367 to remedy that problem is similar
to using nuclear weapons to drive tacks.
Number 219
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON informed committee members a few other Alaska
school districts have spotty performance records on accepting all
students, but the Anchorage School District makes a policy out of
sending part-time students to the back of the line. The Anchorage
School District accepts tax money paid by private school students'
parents. The argument that the U.S. Constitution is threatened by
a nine year old student who attends a public school math class is
ludicrous on its face. The U.S. Constitution has survived a few
hundred years of very serious challenges. As discussed last week,
a school district has every right to apply equally, to part and
full-time students, the same prerequisites and preregistration
requirements for class enrollment. The Anchorage School District
will not even allow students enrolled in the state correspondence
course to enroll in classes, under the threat that their entry
would threaten constitutional rights. He noted that Mr. Cyr's
concern that classes have waiting lists is valid, however that
issue is separate. School districts need to use whatever resources
and criteria they have available to decide when to add classes.
Representative Dyson said he takes extreme exception to the
argument that allowing part-time students to take classes in public
schools will weaken both systems. Nothing could be more to the
contrary; this approach should strengthen both systems.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted from testimony on last year's bill, he
learned that several public schools were using the part-time status
as a way to transition students back into school who had been
thrown out for behavioral problems. Those schools found part-time
attendance to be a marvelous transition tool. They also found that
students from correspondence, home schools, or private schools
were, almost without exception, a real asset to the educational
experience of students in the public school system, and he hopes it
was vice versa. Representative Dyson said NEAA's position is the
exact reason why this bill is necessary: the Alaska Constitution
prohibits discrimination against any students. To tell one group
it cannot participate in public schools seems contrary to the
Constitution. Well educated students are a major resource for the
future of our state.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN welcomed Senators Ellis and Ward.
Number 282
SENATOR GREEN noted part of NEAA's position paper does not address
the bill. She also stated, regarding the argument that a "B" grade
may not be the equivalent in different schools, that same argument
could be made among public high schools within the same, or
different, districts. She added that even within school districts,
it has been suggested that policies differ as to how children are
allowed to enroll in courses and to participate.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN explained the changes made in the committee
substitute to Senators Ellis and Ward.
SENATOR GREEN asked if the part-time students were actually being
counted as more than one FTE by DOE.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN answered he did not think so, but the potential to
do so existed.
SENATOR GREEN moved to delete lines 11 through 13 on page 1.
SENATOR ELLIS objected for the purpose of an explanation.
Number 309
SENATOR GREEN stated that the deletion of those lines will actually
have no effect because it is already understood that the bill only
applies to academic subjects. That language was added by a
committee to restate that position.
SENATOR ELLIS commented if another committee explicitly added that
language in, it must have thought it to be important.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON clarified that the amendment was added on the
House floor, by Representative Kubina, to ensure that the bill
would remain neutral on extracurricular activities.
Number 326
MS. TORKELSON clarified that Representative Kubina asked if a
governing body could be considered the Alaska School Activities
Association (ASAA). After researching the issue, she found that a
governing body, according to statute, can only mean the school
board. The ASAA, since 1994 or 1995, has been a separate non-
profit entity; it has no relation to DOE anymore. She gave this
information to Representative Kubina and to Representative Porter
who requested that the language be added for the purpose of
clarification.
SENATOR ELLIS felt that language is comfort language that could
prevent litigation in the future. However, he stated he would not
maintain his objection if the committee wants to remove it.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN stated he thinks the exclusion of those three lines
creates a firestorm in the bill and that he would be voting against
the amendment.
Number 355
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON agreed with Chairman Wilken that leaving the
language in tends to quiet down people who get alarmed about the
bill and its inclusion does not change the effect of the bill.
The committee took a brief at-ease.
The motion to delete lines 11-13 on page 1 carried with Senators
Leman, Green, and Ward voting for the motion and Senator Ellis and
Chairman Wilken voting against it.
SENATOR LEMAN moved to report SCSHB 367(HES) out of committee with
individual recommendations and a zero fiscal note. SENATOR ELLIS
objected. The motion carried with Senators Green, Ward, Leman and
Chairman Wilken voting for the motion, and Senator Ellis voting
against it.
HB 353-ADOPTION BY REFERENCE IN REGULATIONS
BRUCE CAMPBELL, staff to Representative Pete Kelly, sponsor of HB
353, made the following remarks. HB 353 will allow a state agency,
when it adopts a regulation that incorporates a document by
reference, to incorporate future amended versions of that document
with the condition that the document is explicitly authorized by
statute. HB 353 provides statutory authorization to incorporate
updated versions of any of the items listed on pages 2-3, as long
as the appropriate notification requirements are met. Notification
requirements include publication in the Administrative Journal, as
well as notification of other interested individuals, and the
regulations attorney in the Department of Law. HB 353 is a
paperwork reduction measure. Currently, state agencies must
distribute complete sets of regulations being re-promulgated for
the purpose of incorporating an updated document. If HB 353 is
enacted, state agencies will be able to notice only the issue being
updated. HB 353 contains a specific list of codes which are
updated by various agencies each year; most of the items on the
list for DHSS are the numeric codes used to identify medical
treatments and prescriptions for insurance and billing purposes.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN asked Mr. Campbell to comment on the amendments
before the committee.
MR. CAMPBELL stated Representative Kelly supports the three
amendments.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN clarified that the amendment labeled Lauterbach A.1
is Amendment #1 by Senator Leman; A.2 is Amendment #2, and the
conceptual amendment will be Amendment #3.
SENATOR LEMAN moved to adopt Amendment #1.
MR. CAMPBELL deferred to a representative from the Department of
Labor to comment on Amendment #1.
PAUL GROSSI, Director of the Division of Workers' Compensation in
the Department of Labor (DOL), made the following comments. The
intent of Amendment #1 is to allow the adoption, in regulation, by
reference of future editions of documents presently used.
Amendment #1 refers to the United States Department of Labor's
"Selected Characteristics of Occupations Defined in the Revised
Dictionary of Occupational Titles," which describes both the
physical and mental demands of an occupation so that the Division
of Workers' Compensation can determine whether an injured worker is
capable of performing those duties. Allowing DOL to use updated
editions of that document requires a statutory change. Mr. Grossi
cautioned the amendment may need a technical change to ensure that
all future references could be adopted because DOL changes the
names of the documents it uses. The amendment refers to the United
States Department of Labor's "Selected Characteristics of
Occupations Defined in the Revised Dictionary of Occupational
Titles." That is the current publication available, however DOL is
not using that edition, it uses the 1981 edition. He suggested
using language that refers to future amended versions, editions,
revisions, or replacements. DOL is currently looking at using a
computerized system called "ONET" in the future. That program will
not be a revision of the Revised Dictionary, it will be an
electronic replacement. DOL is in support of this legislation but
the amendment may need to be revised.
Number 461
MR. CAMPBELL noted Jack Chenoweth, the bill drafter, was present.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN asked if that technical change could be worked out
among the interested parties and brought back to the committee.
MR. CAMPBELL noted the bill was provided to the Department of Law
which created the draft version from it. The difference in the
committee substitute is that the Department of Law suggested that
a set of rules be created in the first section of the bill that
occur within the Administrative Procedures Act. Amendment #1
provides for the specificity required for that process in the
Department of Labor's actual code.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN asked what committee the bill is next referred to.
SENATOR GREEN replied the Senate State Affairs Committee.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN thought this issue might be appropriately addressed
by the Senate Judiciary Committee. He asked if Amendment #1 needs
to be amended.
JACK CHENOWETH, Assistant Attorney General, stated Mr. Grossi's
concern is answered on page 2 of the existing bill. Lines 15-21
take into consideration the possibility that a document that is
identified with a very specific title may have that title changed.
The language on those lines reads:
(d) A change in the form, format, or title in a future
amended or revised version of a document or material
incorporated by reference in a regulation under this section
does not affect the validity of the regulation ...."
The language goes on to say the regulation attorney shall correct
the title in the Alaska Administrative Code under the editorial
authority. If the title cited in the language of Amendment #1
should change, and another document that serves the same purpose is
substituted, the regulation attorney would simply update that in
the regulation so that DOL could continue to make use of the most
recent version of the document as the basis of whatever
applicability it may have.
Number 491
SENATOR GREEN questioned whether that would be true even if the
document precedes the revised dictionary of occupation titles.
MR. CHENOWETH said it would not. The documents referenced in the
bill would act as the baseline reference.
MR. CAMPBELL stated the document adopted by DOL regulation is the
"Selected Characteristics of Occupations Defined in the Revised
Dictionary of Occupational Titles." DOL would like to be using the
current version which has not been adopted by regulation.
MR. GROSSI said that was incorrect. The edition that was adopted
by statute is not the revised edition, it is the "Selected
Characteristics of Occupations Defined in the Dictionary of
Occupational Titles." DOL cannot update the version used, by
regulation, because it is strictly defined in statute. That is one
reason why DOL supports this amendment.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN asked Mr. Campbell to work on the necessary
revisions and bring the bill back to the committee at a later date.
SENATOR LEMAN suggested including language in the bill regarding
the notification process that is similar to the standard language
used when code upgrades occur.
Number 518
SENATOR GREEN commented she has seen a couple of letters in
opposition to the bill. She asked Mr. Campbell to address the
issues in those letters.
MR. CAMPBELL stated he is only aware of one letter of objection
that was not sent to the sponsor nor any of the committees in which
the bill has been heard. The author of that letter did not address
the topic of the bill. The author is concerned about the nature of
the computer program used to adopt uniform billing codes. That
concern may be valid but nothing in this bill addresses how Claim
Check works.
MR. CAMPBELL asked Chairman Wilken if he would like a new committee
substitute prepared.
CHAIRMAN WILKEN said he would.
There being no further business to come before the committee,
CHAIRMAN WILKEN adjourned the meeting at 10:12 a.m.
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