Legislature(2023 - 2024)SENATE FINANCE 532
03/17/2023 09:00 AM Senate FINANCE
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| Presentation: Clean Water Permitting | |
| SB25 | |
| SB81 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 25 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | SB 81 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE
March 17, 2023
9:02 a.m.
9:02:20 AM
CALL TO ORDER
Co-Chair Olson called the Senate Finance Committee meeting
to order at 9:02 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Lyman Hoffman, Co-Chair
Senator Donny Olson, Co-Chair
Senator Bert Stedman, Co-Chair
Senator Click Bishop
Senator Jesse Kiehl
Senator Kelly Merrick
Senator David Wilson
MEMBERS ABSENT
None
ALSO PRESENT
Randall Bates, Director, Division of Water, Department of
Fish and Game; Ken Alper, Staff, Senator Donny Olson.
SUMMARY
SB 25 REPEALING FUNDS, ACCOUNTS, AND PROGRAMS
CSSB 25(FIN) was REPORTED out of committee with
two "no recommendations" and five "do pass"
recommendations and with one new zero fiscal note
from the Legislature.
SB 81 OFFICE OF VICTIMS' RIGHTS: COMPENSATION
SB 81 was REPORTED out of committee with two "no
recommendations" and five "do pass"
recommendations and with one new fiscal note from
the Legislature.
PRESENTATION: CLEAN WATER PERMITTING
^PRESENTATION: CLEAN WATER PERMITTING
9:03:08 AM
RANDALL BATES, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF WATER, DEPARTMENT OF
FISH AND GAME, discussed the presentation, "Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC) Clean Water Act, Section
404 Dredge and Fill Senate Finance Committee" (copy on
file). Mr. Bates looked at slide 2, " SB 27 28th
Legislature, Regulation Of Dredge And Fill Activities":
.notdef In 2013, the Legislature passed SB 27, which
mandated: "The Department of Environmental
Conservation . . . shall . . . take reasonable steps
to assume primacy of the [404] program."
.notdef Passed 15-2 in the Senate and 25-13 in the House
9:05:18 AM
Mr. Bates highlighted slide 3, "Clean Water Act Section
404":
.notdef Regulates the discharge of dredged or fill material
into Waters of the United States (WOTUS)
Mr. Bates pointed to slide 4, "Examples of Activities
Requiring 404 Permits":
.notdef Site improvement fill for residential, commercial,
or recreational development
.notdef Construction of revetments, breakwaters, levees,
dams, dikes, and weirs
.notdef Placement of riprap and fill material for roads,
airports, or buildings
.notdef Resource development projects
Mr. Bates highlighted slide 5, "Alaska's Landscape":
.notdef Alaska's wetlands cover approximately 174 million
acres, or about 43 percent of Alaska's surface area
.notdef May include tundra, permafrost, marshes, and bogs
.notdef Most construction and resource and community
development projects require Section 404 permits
Mr. Bates pointed to slide 6, which showed a map of the
state. The map showed the wetlands that were subject to
core federal agency oversight.
Mr. Bates addressed slide 7, "Steps Toward Assumption":
.notdef FY 2023 Alaska Legislature provided DEC with $1
million to draft the feasibility report.
"It is the Intent of the Legislature that $1
million is appropriated for the purpose of the
Department of Environmental Conservation to
complete a feasibility study on the assumption of
primacy of Section 404 of the Clean Water Act.
The report will be submitted to the four cochairs
of the Finance Committees and Division of
Legislative Finance by February 1, 2023."
Mr. Bates pointed to slide 8, which displayed the website
for the Feasibility Report.
Mr. Bates discussed slide 9, "Feasibility Study
Recommendation - Page 46":
"Given the state's rights under cooperative
federalism, the importance of the natural environment
and natural resources to the people and economy of
Alaska, the importance of wetland permitting in
Alaska, and the potential for influencing resource
protection and development policies, the recommended
course of action is for the State of Alaska to assume
the 404 program over assumable WOTUS."
Senator Wilson remarked that the report was different than
the study. He wondered whether the study was available to
the committee.
Mr. Bates replied that the words "study" and "report" were
used interchangeably.
9:10:50 AM
Mr. Bates looked at slide 10, "Cost Analysis":
.notdef Program development (two years)
.notdefFY2024:
.notdef$4,964.0
.notdef28 FT Positions in FY 24
.notdefTraining, equipment, and travel
.notdefLegal consultation, regulations development
.notdefCoordination with agencies
.notdefAssumption application development
.notdefFY2025
.notdefApprox. $4,700.0 in FY 25 and beyond
.notdefAnticipates four additional positions
Co-Chair Stedman noted that there was an anticipation of a
reduction to the state's revenue forecast, which would pose
a greater challenge to the FY 24 budget than previously
anticipated. He asked about how many other states had
similar primacy, and queried the specific cost to Florida
because of their wetlands.
9:14:23 AM
Mr. Bates replied that some of the specific details of the
other states were within the report, and agreed to provide
that information. He shared that Florida was the most
recent state to assume 404 primacy in 2020. He addressed
slide 11, "Workload and Staffing Analysis":
.notdef Corps completed 775 actions/year
.notdefOver a 5-year period (2017-2022)
.notdef48 FTE = 16 actions/FTE/year
.notdef Alaska could assume approximately 75 percent of the
Corps' permitting responsibilities
.notdefApproximately 581 actions per year
.notdef32 FTE = 18 actions/FTE/year
Mr. Bates pointed to slide 12, "Staff Structure as
included in the Feasibility Report." He stated that the
intention was to hire specific 404 permitting staff.
9:20:06 AM
Co-Chair Hoffman queried how much land and how many
applicants in Alaska had to go through the 404 primacy
permitting process in the last five years; and the
anticipated workload for the upcoming five years.
Mr. Bates agreed to provide that information.
Senator Wilson wondered whether there would be an increase
to the Department of Law (LAW), due to the litigation
anticipation.
Mr. Bates replied with slide 13, "Budget Breakdown as
proposed in the Governor's amended FY 2024 budget." He
stated that the slide showed exactly how the money would be
spent. He stated that one of the line items under
"Contracts" showed that there was a need for LAW to assist
in developing the program. He stated that, going forward,
the money that was needed from LAW to develop the program
would also be needed for litigation or appeals on a 404
primacy project.
Co-Chair Stedman expressed concern that the state may be
embarking on a program that it could not "get out of." He
understood that Florida had a substantial number of
employees in their 404 primacy program with a significant
backlog. He wanted to ensure that Alaska did not get into a
financial bind to the state with no real net benefit.
9:25:13 AM
Co-Chair Olson wondered whether it was a "one way door."
Mr. Bates replied that "the answer is no." He shared a
story about how other states want to enter into their own
404 primacy programs. He shared that funding was a concern,
but that he was working to find other sources of funding
other than general funding. He remarked that a fee-based
structure would be important in continuing the program.
Co-Chair Olson surmised that the current numbers in the
presentation, may not be the full cost of the program.
Mr. Bates believed that the numbers were accurate.
9:31:31 AM
Senator Kiehl reiterated that the chart did not have the
future lawsuit costs. He wondered how many federal full-
time employees (FTEs) were designated for Alaska permits.
He also asked about more information about anticipated
legal expenses.
Mr. Bates replied that the Corps of Engineers had 48
permitted staff, which was the equivalent of what the state
had anticipated in the chart. He shared that looking at the
permit world, was about 775 actions a year. He remarked
that Alaska would get about 75 percent of those actions. He
felt that the state's proposal was equivalent to the
federal program. He shared that there was built in support
for the legal costs.
9:36:40 AM
Senator Merrick queried the cost of the 404 permit
application, and whether it was the same for an individual
and a large company doing resource development.
Mr. Bates replied that the Corps of Engineers currently
charged $10 for a residential permit, and $100 for a
commercial permit. He shared that in the Alaska Department
of Environmental Conservation (DEC) there was then a 401
certification process associated with the permit, which had
a charge for the review of the permit.
9:38:36 AM
Co-Chair Stedman asked about the issue of hatcheries, and
"mission creep."
Mr. Bates responded there were always issues with various
permits. He remarked that the Alaska DEC had knowledge of
hatcheries, so he felt that was a good case for assuming
the 404 permitting.
9:44:55 AM
Co-Chair Hoffman wondered why DEC was taking standards that
the federal government had, but had a higher standard for
the state. He felt that the additional requirements were
costing millions of dollars for the hatcheries.
Mr. Bates replied that the Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA), under the Clean Water Act, set standards for water
quality. The state either adopts those standards, or the
state could adopt its own water quality standards. He
shared that the state was active on the endeavor. He stated
that sometimes there was a standard that was specific to
the state. He stressed that it was necessary to protect the
water in the state.
Co-Chair Stedman felt that determining dozens of people
should result in watching the employment across all
agencies. He did not know whether the assumption of the
program was the best use of funds in the current financial
climate of the state.
9:49:57 AM
Co-Chair Hoffman stated that he had not heard concerns
about the water quality issue that Mr. Bates had alluded
to, from either the processing plants or the hatcheries. He
stressed that he had heard from the industry that the state
was implementing policies that were much stricter than the
federal requirements, which could cause additional
financial burdens that could result in decreasing Alaskan
jobs.
Mr. Bates replied that the department could do no more or
less than the legislature provided authority. He stated
that the implementation was created with the spirit and
intent of the "sideboards" that had been set up for water
quality, and felt that those standards were absolutely
legal. He remarked that the hatchery permit was currently
on administrative extension because the issues had not seen
a resolution. He did not anticipate that those issues would
be resolved in the short term. He remarked that a path
forward was needed that was as noninvasive and non-
impactful as possible.
9:55:25 AM
Senator Bishop surmised that this was one of the few
federal programs where the state had primacy where federal
dollars did not follow.
Mr. Bates agreed.
Senator Bishop wondered whether federal dollars offset the
cost of 401 and 402 permitting.
Mr. Bates replied that the state received 402 funding
support.
Senator Bishop wondered whether there was an active seeking
of federal dollars for the 404 permitting.
Mr. Bates replied in the affirmative.
Senator Bishop felt that there was a way to "unwind"
primacy if the state were to assume primacy.
Mr. Bates replied in the affirmative.
Senator Kiehl queried the safeguard if the program were to
be vetoed in the budget.
Mr. Bates replied that DEC would continue to fund the
program as needed, and remarked that there were other
avenues of funding that could offset the need for general
fund.
10:02:28 AM
Mr. Bates discussed slide 12 again.
Co-Chair Hoffman queried the outcome of the Pebble Mine if
the state had assumed 404 primacy.
Mr. Bates replied that the authority the EPA used for the
Pebble Mine, which was 404 C, was unaffected by the state's
assumption of the program.
10:07:17 AM
AT EASE
10:07:58 AM
RECONVENED
10:08:04 AM
Senator Bishop queried the audit schedule, and whether the
federal government had to follow up on a permit for
authorization.
Mr. Bates deferred to Ms. Pack, but explained that EPA
retained oversight authority on Alaska's permitting.
Senator Bishop stated he is satisfied with the response.
10:11:40 AM
Mr. Bates looked at slide 14, "Next Steps to Assumption":
1. Obtain funding and hire staff
2. Prepare application to EPA, submit early 2025
3. Program approval mid-late 2025
Senator Kiehl asked for clarification of the compensatory
mitigation.
Mr. Bates replied that compensatory mitigation was a
concept that was imbedded in the Clean Water Act, so
actions had to go through a sequencing process. He stated
that the federal government was choosing to take an easier
path.
10:16:19 AM
AT EASE
10:16:54 AM
RECONVENED
SENATE BILL NO. 25
"An Act relating to inactive state accounts and funds;
relating to the curriculum improvement and best
practices fund; relating to the fuel emergency fund
and fuel emergency grants; relating to the special
Alaska Historical Commission receipts account;
relating to the rural electrification revolving loan
fund and loans from the fund; relating to the
Southeast energy fund and grants from the fund; and
relating to the Exxon Valdez oil spill unincorporated
rural community grant fund and grants from the fund."
10:17:33 AM
Co-Chair Stedman MOVED to ADOPT the committee substitute
for SB 25, Work Draft 33-LS0237\B (Marx, 3/16/23).
Co-Chair Olson OBJECTED for discussion.
10:17:47 AM
KEN ALPER, STAFF, SENATOR DONNY OLSON, explained the
committee substitute.
Co-Chair Olson REMOVED his objection. There being NO
OBJECTION, the proposed committee substitute was ADOPTED.
Co-Chair Olson noted the zero fiscal note.
Co-Chair Stedman MOVED to REPORT SB 25 out of committee
with individual recommendations and attached fiscal note.
There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
CSSB 25(FIN) was REPORTED out of committee with two "no
recommendations" and five "do pass" recommendations and
with one new zero fiscal note from the Legislature.
10:19:38 AM
AT EASE
10:20:00 AM
RECONVENED
SENATE BILL NO. 81
"An Act relating to the office of victims' rights; and
providing for an effective date."
10:20:43 AM
KEN ALPER, STAFF, SENATOR DONNY OLSON, explained the fiscal
note. He stated that the attorneys in the office of
victims' rights would receive the same 20 percent raise of
all other state attorneys. He stated that there should be a
rejection of the increment in the budget, so there was not
duplicate funding.
Co-Chair Stedman MOVED to REPORT SB 81 out of committee
with individual recommendations and attached fiscal impact
note. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered.
SB 81 was REPORTED out of committee with two "no
recommendations" and five "do pass" recommendations and
with one new fiscal note from the Legislature.
10:21:34 AM
AT EASE
10:22:06 AM
RECONVENED
Co-Chair Olson discussed committee business.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 10:22 a.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| 031723 404 Feasibility Report - Executive Summary.pdf |
SFIN 3/17/2023 9:00:00 AM |
|
| 031723 SFIN DEC 404.pdf |
SFIN 3/17/2023 9:00:00 AM |
|
| SB 25 work draft version B.pdf |
SFIN 3/17/2023 9:00:00 AM |
SB 25 |
| Nebraska Department of Environment and Energy Section 404 Assumption Investigation Report.pdf |
SFIN 3/17/2023 9:00:00 AM |
|
| 03.24.23 SFIN re 404 response.pdf |
SFIN 3/17/2023 9:00:00 AM |