Legislature(1993 - 1994)
02/17/1994 09:15 AM Senate FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
MINUTES
SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE
February 17, 1994
9:15 a.m.
TAPES
SFC-94, #27, Side 1 (000-end)
SFC-94, #27, Side 2 (end-120)
CALL TO ORDER
Senator Drue Pearce, Co-chair, convened the meeting at
approximately 9:15 a.m.
PRESENT
In addition to Co-chairs Pearce and Frank, Senators Kelly,
Rieger, and Kerttula were present. Senators Sharp and Jack
were absent.
ALSO ATTENDING: Representative Harley Olberg; Annette
Kreitzer, aide to Senator Leman, sponsor of SB 33; Ervin
Paul Martin, Director, Alaska Division of Emergency
Services, Department of Military & Veteran Affairs; Mike
Conway, Director, Division of Spill Prevention & Response,
Department of Environmental Conservation; James Studley,
Vice Chairman, LEPC Association, Haines; Randy Welker,
Legislative Auditor, Legislative Audit Division; Virginia
Stonkus, fiscal analyst, and Mike Greany, Director,
Legislative Finance Division; aides to committee members and
other members of the legislature.
SUMMARY INFORMATION
CSSB 33(STA): An Act relating to emergency planning and
response; transferring the Hazardous
Substance Spill Technology Review Council to
the Department of Environmental Conservation;
transferring the Alaska State Emergency
Response Commission, including its duty to
designate local emergency planning districts
and appoint local emergency planning
committees, to the Department of Military and
Veterans' Affairs; and eliminating a
requirement that the state and regional oil
discharge prevention and contingency plans be
revised annually.
CSSB 33(FIN) work draft dated 2/16/94 was
brought before the committee for discussion
purposes. Annette Kreitzer, aide to Senator
Leman, sponsor of SB 33, spoke to CSSB
33(FIN) and explained the amendments. Ervin
Paul Martin, Director, Alaska Division of
Emergency Services, Department of Military &
Veteran Affairs; Mike Conway, Director,
Division of Spill Prevention & Response,
Department of Environmental Conservation; and
James Studley, Vice Chairman, LEPC
Association, Haines, also came before the
committee and testified in support of SB 33.
Discussion was had by the committee on
various budget issues and positions being
transferred between departments. CSSB
33(FIN) was REPORTED OUT of committee with
individual recommendations with a new fiscal
note from Senate Finance for Department of
Military & Veterans Affairs for $646.7, and a
fiscal note for the Department of
Environmental Conservation for $(646.7).
HB 372: An Act relating to the four dam pool transfer
fund.
Co-chair Pearce voiced her preference that HB
372 would move out of committee and SB 243
would be held. Senator Rieger voiced his
concern over passing HB 372 without
correcting the problems in the legislation.
Co-chairs Pearce and Frank concurred. HB 372
was REPORTED OUT of committee with individual
recommendations and a zero fiscal note for
the Dept. of Community & Regional Affairs.
SB 243: An Act relating to the four dam pool transfer
fund.
SB 243 was scheduled but not heard. It was
HELD in committee.
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 33(STA):
An Act relating to emergency planning and response;
transferring the Hazardous Substance Spill Technology
Review Council to the Department of Environmental
Conservation; transferring the Alaska State Emergency
Response Commission, including its duty to designate
local emergency planning districts and appoint local
emergency planning committees, to the Department of
Military and Veterans' Affairs; and eliminating a
requirement that the state and regional oil discharge
prevention and contingency plans be revised annually.
CO-CHAIR PEARCE announced that the work draft CSSB 33(FIN)
dated 2/16/94 was before the committee. CO-CHAIR FRANK
MOVED that the work draft CSSB 33(FIN) be adopted for
discussion purposes. Hearing no objection, IT WAS SO
ORDERED.
Co-chair Pearce invited Annette Kreitzer, aide to Senator
Leman, sponsor of SB 33, to come before the committee and
explain the changes incorporated in CSSB 33(FIN).
ANNETTE KREITZER said that she would make the explanation as
clear as possible. Section 1 was part of the five page
amendment that was presented to the committee on the
February 3rd Senate Finance Meeting. It cleaned up DM&VA
statutes removing references to disaster agencies which
never had been established and the department felt never
would be established. Section 2 and 3 were also included in
the amendment dealing with disaster agencies.
Ms. Kreitzer stated that page 3, line 11, was the beginning
of the original bill. Section 4 was the previous Section 2
(not new material). Section 5 was the previous Section 3,
and Section 6 was previous Section 4. Section 7 on page 4
was part of the original amendment that removes disaster
agencies and clarified language in reference to political
subdivision, municipalities and boroughs. Section 8 and 9
were also part of the amendment. AS 26.23.060(f)
(originally between Sections 9 and 10) that dealt with
disaster agencies had been repealed. Section 10 was the old
Section 5. Section 11 was the old Section 6. Section 12
was the old Section 7. In Section 12 there was a change on
page 6, lines 18-20, broadening the language. Anchorage and
Fairbanks had expressed their concern that the Governor be
able to appoint either a mayor, assembly person, or
emergency manager to the SERC, not restricting it to an
assembly or city council person.
On page 8, line 25, lines 29 and 30, the words "governing
body" were deleted from in front of political subdivision.
It was felt it would help insure local control for
nomination of people for local emergency planning
committees. Everything remained the same in CSSB 33(FIN)
until page 12. Section 13 removed reference to inter-
jurisdictional disaster agencies because there were none.
Section 14 was the old Section 8. On page 13, Sections 15
and 16, were also both parts of that original amendment.
Section 17 was the old Section 10. Section 18 was the old
Section 11. Section 19 was the old Section 12. Section 20
was the old Section 13. Section 21 was the old Section 14.
Section 22 was the old Section 15. Section 23 was the old
Section 16.
Page 17, lines 15 and 16, dealt with the "470" fund. She
indicated that work was being done with Senator Miller on SB
215 to ensure that the language aligned between the two
bills. She pointed out that the "470 fund" would only be
able to be used for SERC activities and staff support when
those activities and staff were doing oil and hazardous
substance related things.
Again, the section number changed as follows: Section 24 was
the old Section 17, Section 25 was the old Section 18,
Section 26 was the old Section 19, Section 27 was the old
Section 20, Section 28 was the old Section 21, and Section
29 was the old Section 22.
She said there were two changes in repealers that conformed
with the other changes. As aforementioned, AS 26.23.060(f)
that dealt with disaster agencies has been repealed between
Sections 9 and 10, and 26.23.195, at the request of DM&VA,
was repealed. With that, she concluded her explanation of
CSSB 33(FIN) work draft.
SENATOR KERTTULA asked if a positive response had been made
to the Prince William Sound Regional Citizens' Advisory
Council (RCAC) and if that organization had had much input
regarding this legislation. Ms. Kreitzer said that when the
RCAC had testified at the last Senate Finance meeting she
felt there was some confusion as to what SB 33 would do. In
answer to Senator Kerttula, Ms. Kreitzer said she did not
know if the confusion had been cleared up but pointed out
that SB 33 did not remove financial responsibility as
thought by RCAC. She testified of the support by statewide
emergency planning committees and that the State Emergency
Response Commission had voted unanimously with the exception
of one person in support of SB 33. Discussion followed
between Senator Kerttula and Ms. Kreitzer regarding certain
individuals and their positions.
Co-chair Pearce invited Ervin Paul Martin, Director, Alaska
Division of Emergency Services, Department of Military &
Veteran Affairs to come before the committee and testify
regarding SB 33.
ERVIN MARTIN said that his department was in support of SB
33. He pointed out that there had been some question
regarding the staffing needed to perform the function of
this bill. Other than the three positions that would be
transferred to Department of Environmental Conservation to
support the Commission, two planners had also been
requested. These two planners would help local communities
develop and implement their plans. At the end of five
years, those two positions would be eliminated. He noted
that the Commission has been in effect for four years and a
plan had not been approved as yet. Two plans were presented
yesterday but he reiterated that it was critical for the
Department, if it was to perform a credible service, to have
the necessary resources to perform the function.
Senator Kerttula requested Mr. Martin to provide him with a
written copy of his testimony.
Co-chair Frank admitted he was not really well versed in
this but from a fiscal position, he understood that a
responsibility was being transferred from one agency to
another. He felt a little more money should be transferred
from DEC rather than using funds from the general fund
because it made sense to perform a transfer and not increase
the budget. Senator Kerttula concurred with Co-chair
Frank's comments.
Discussion followed between Co-chairs Frank and Pearce,
Senators Kerttula, and Kelly regarding the fiscal notes and
the "470" fund.
Co-chair Pearce invited Mike Conway, Director, Division of
Spill Prevention & Response, Department of Environmental
Conservation, to come before the committee.
MIKE CONWAY said that funds had gone to the LEPC's for the
writing of the plans from the "470" fund. The distinction
was that in an all hazards commission the division was
picking up additional responsibilities for events other than
oil and hazardous substance spills. In other words, the
transfer of the "470 fund" went to support oil and hazardous
substances which was an eligible use of the fund. When an
"all hazards, disaster" plan was sought, it was not eligible
for the use of the "470 fund." Senator Kerttula asked what
percentage of the costs were "470 fund." Mr. Conway said
the three positions being transferred to DM&VA was supported
from "470 funds", but the additional two planners would come
from general fund moneys.
Co-chair Frank said this bill represented a transfer and an
expansion of government since now "all hazards" were being
addressed. Mr. Conway concurred and used the recent
California earthquake as an example of what issues would be
dealt with in this legislation, hospitals, roads, water
systems, etc., all outside the realm of oil and hazardous
substances.
Co-chair Frank asked how this dovetailed with existing DM&VA
plan and functions. Mr. Martin agreed that DM&VA did have
an existing plan funded by state general fund money and
federal money for civil defense and natural disasters. What
the department was attempting to do was bring together all
disaster planning. He commented that if a community did not
have a plan, if DEC would release "470 fund" money for a
plan, the same functions would have to be applied to the
federal criteria. That included accounting for evacuation,
sheltering, and damage assessment. Emergency services made
no distinction on the type of events. He wanted to make
clarify that DEC was not transferring all the staff that had
been funded to support the Commission. They would keep at
least three positions because they retained the community
right to know responsibility of SERA Title 3. Even though
DM&VA was picking up the support of the Commission, DM&VA
would do it cheaper and provide services directly to the
local governments in the creation of these plans. Once
these plans were created, in effect, they were applicable to
any type of event. At the end of the five years, the two
state planner positions would be eliminated, and it would be
up to the local governments to maintain them.
Senator Kerttula said that he did not know about the
National Guard, but did not believe the military would do
anything cheaper.
In answer to Co-chair Frank, Mr. Martin said that he had
five planners already in his budget not including the two
requested. Co-chair Frank asked, if the concept was that
the local communities would look at local needs and develop
a plan, would that eliminate or reduce the need for the
state to plan for disaster response in a particular area.
He said it seemed like it would save money and that savings
could be applied to the support for the local plan. Mr.
Martin concurred and went on to say that if a community was
physiologically prepared it reduced its vulnerability to the
threat of unanticipated events. It can respond because it
was aware of hazards that could threaten them which reduced
the burden to the state. Prior to the Exxon Valdez, the two
most coordinated jurisdictions with a plan in place were the
Kenai Peninsula Borough and the Kodiak Island Borough.
Under SERA Title 3, the super fund amendment and
reauthorization act of 1986, Congress mandated that the
states must address hazardous substances and promulgated
national response team guidance for hazardous material
annexes. When that happened the state adopted the State
Emergency Response Commission. DM&VA recommended that the
Response Commission should be "all hazards" because of the
numerous threats that Alaska faced in our environment.
California was following that thinking with their Commission
since it was logical and more cost effective. If a
community does not have a plan, it was subject to the
liability of losses, particularly the loss of life. They
were aware of their hazards but did not address them. SERA
Title 3 mandated the creation of a plan and under those
plans, those functions must be addressed and applicable for
all disasters, floods, fires, volcanic eruptions, etc.
Co-chair Frank again asked if those existing positions could
be utilized to some extent to perform this function without
hiring two new people. Mr. Martin agreed that they could,
but the time frame to create the plans would have to be
extended. He reiterated that the Commission had been in
existence for four years and until yesterday, no plans had
been submitted. He felt there was an element of frustration
in the lack of progress. In answer to Co-chair Frank, Mr.
Martin said it was a combination of lack of state support
and other factors that caused delays. He felt with material
and physical support, the state could help the local
organizations develop criteria to meet the minimum
established federal standards. By sending people into the
field, the department could write, print, and distribute the
plan which accelerated the process. Co-chair Frank pointed
out that if the state did all those things it was no longer
a local plan. Mr. Martin pointed out that the local
emergency planning committees were volunteers, were not
funded nor provided staff. There was some funding in
hazards' analysis and the development of a plan. The
department provided the technical assistance.
Senator Rieger asked why the Governor did not use an
executive order to accomplish this. Mr. Martin said he
could not answer that question. Ms. Kreitzer said SB 33
started as a one page bill as a way to give moneys to local
emergency planning committees. After the commissioners met,
they decided to expand on that. She affirmed that the
departments had been very supportive to come to a consensus
on this bill.
In answer to Senator Kerttula, Ms. Kreitzer said they had
been working with the legislative liaisons. Last session
that was Chris Lethin and Laurie Nottingham. This session
it was Raga Elim and Laurie Nottingham.
Co-chair Pearce invited James Studley, Vice Chairman, LEPC
Association, Haines, to join the committee at the table.
JAMES STUDLEY said that the same questions the committee was
asking the department were the same as what the LEPCs had
tried to address and tried to get the departments to address
over the years. He said he was here to testify in support
of SB 33. He said he was speaking for such communities as
Anchorage and Fairbanks, but he best represented smaller
communities such as Angoon, Kake, Pelican, etc. He was very
happy about DES and DEC working out their differences. His
biggest concern was what mechanism was going to be used to
fund the positions that were going from DEC to DES.
Somewhere along the line, Mr. Studley stated that the money
was not reaching the LEPCs. Major disaster plans,
tremendous requirements from statutes (he listed them) -- so
many laws and regulations that the local communities had to
deal with that it was overwhelming. To not be financed by
the government and try to comply with these regulations was
overwhelming. To ask small communities to develop a plan
without the needed materials, was a joke. These were all
volunteers, they saw a need for emergency planning, they
believed in it, they were trying their best to comply with
the law but unless there was some kind of pass through
wording that gets some funding to the local level, this was
going to drag on for years. The mayors in the local
communities say it was a state problem and refuse to finance
the plans. The local people do want to write their own
plans since it was their community. He reiterated the
importance of a mechanism to get the funds down to the local
level.
Co-chair Frank asked for specific items that communities
needed but Mr. Studley said they were too numerous to list.
Co-chair Frank admitted that local communities would be
served with general state support and fewer regulations.
Mr. Studley again stated that unless the state funds local
efforts to develop the plans, local volunteers were
discouraged and finally to meet federal mandates, the state,
if it did not fund now, would be forced to hire persons to
meet federal mandates. In answer to Co-chair Frank, Mr.
Studley said, even though federal moneys were small, at
least 75 percent of the funds went straight to the local
groups. He suggested the state use a similar percentage
mandate.
Senator Kerttula MOVED for passage of CSSB 33(FIN) with
individual recommendations. No objections being raised,
CSSB 33(FIN) was REPORTED OUT of committee with a fiscal
note in the amount of $646.7 for the Department of Military
& Veteran Affairs, and a fiscal note in the amount of
$(646.7) for the Department of Environmental Conservation.
Co-chairs Pearce and Frank, Senators Kerttula and Rieger
signed a "no recommendation." Senator Kelly signed the
committee report with a "do pass" recommendation.
HOUSE BILL NO. 372:
An Act relating to the four dam pool transfer fund.
Co-chair Pearce announced that HB 372 was before the
committee. She said that it was the companion bill to SB
243 that was still in committee. She voiced her preference
that HB 372 would be reported out of committee while SB 243
would be held. She noted that Randy Welker, Legislative
Auditor, Legislative Audit Division, was in the audience and
willing to answer questions.
Co-chair Frank commented that there had been much discussion
on this legislation but few resolutions. He suggested that
problems might be resolved in the budget process.
Senator Rieger asked if HB 372 would address Senator Sharp's
concerns since he was absent from the meeting. Senator
Sharp's concerns as understood by Co-chair Pearce had to do
with on-going funding for the Division of Energy. She said
that HB 372 did not speak to those concerns. In addition,
she said that Senator Sharp had informed her staff that he
was comfortable with dealing with his concerns in another
piece of legislation, the budget process, or in some other
way.
Senator Rieger voiced his concern with HB 372. He said that
it seemed if problems were being addressed that were created
in the legislation that was "stuffed down our throats" last
year, he would prefer to correct all the problems in one
bill. He said that he had not had adequate time to read the
legislation last year and now wished he had asked for more
time to do that. He again pointed out that there were more
problems than just what was being addressed in HB 372 and
reiterated that it would be his preference to do it in one
piece of legislation. He said that when he looked at the
history of appropriations for energy in the state in the
early 80s, it had led to nothing but hard feelings from
about 1984 on. So, now, when a discussion was held on this
subject, everyone was just growling at each other because of
"baggage" people carry regarding, who got more than someone
else, resentments from having to pay back loans that
supplement the grants received, who got more grants, etc.
His biggest concern, in general, although there had been
this amount of money appropriated for projects which may or
may not be excellent projects, the state had put a lot of
money into energy, but now the state had transferred the
energy program to a place where it was opening up another
source of money. He said he did not know how much money had
gone into the interties, the hydro projects, the Healy clean
coal project...but now there was a fund in AIDEA that was
called the Enterprise Development Account which had $460M in
it. There were statutory changes made last year that
allowed AIDEA to go ahead and either back more power
projects with its assets or pledge the state's moral
obligation pledge. This opened up another source of funds,
the capital reserve fund. This fund was an indirect way in
which the Commissioner of Revenue could request additional
money from the state to avoid defaults on bonds. He
expressed his serious concern over how the transfer had been
done last year, where it was at present, and the exposure
the state had to AIDEA. He felt AIDEA was run well and was
pleased to hear from Riley Snell's testimony that a
feasibility study would be done, and done correctly before a
project went forward. He felt that HB 372 was a minor
clean-up for something that needed a broad based clean-up.
He was disappointed that those problems were not being
addressed.
Recess at 10:00
Reconvene at 10:02
Co-chairs Pearce and Frank concurred with Senator Rieger's
concerns. Co-chair Frank went on to say that a few things
were left undone and it was a matter of strategy or
cooperation with the other body to have that accomplished.
He said there were Senator Rieger's concerns, the concern
relative to the administrative costs, and another concern on
a specific project brought up by Senator Halford. Co-chair
Frank said he was not convinced that this was the best way
to proceed and he wanted assurance that the other issues
would be addressed in a strong way.
Co-chair Frank MOVED for passage of HB 372 from committee
with individual recommendations. No objections being
raised, HB 372 was REPORTED OUT of committee with a zero
fiscal note for the Department of Community & Regional
Affairs. Co-chairs Pearce and Frank signed a "no
recommendation." Senators Rieger and Kerttula signed the
committee report with a "do not pass" recommendation.
SENATE BILL NO. 243:
An Act relating to the four dam pool transfer fund.
SB 243 was scheduled but not heard. It was HELD in
committee.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at approximately 10:15 a.m
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