Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/18/1998 05:17 PM House WTR
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
THE HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WORLD TRADE
AND STATE/FEDERAL RELATIONS
March, 18, 1998
5:17 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Ramona Barnes, Chair
Representative John Cowdery
Representative Pete Kott
Representative Gene Kubina
Representative Gail Phillips
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Alan Austerman, Vice Chair
Representative Irene Nicholia
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 38
Relating to the bombardment of the village of Angoon.
- MOVED HCS SJR 38(WTR) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 54
Relating to establishing maritime boundaries with Canada.
- MOVED CSHJR 54(WTR) OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: SJR 38
SHORT TITLE: APOLOGY TO VILLAGE OF ANGOON
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) MACKIE, Taylor, Duncan, Leman
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/16/98 2522 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
2/16/98 2522 (S) STATE AFFAIRS
2/17/98 2550 (S) COSPONSOR(S): TAYLOR, DUNCAN
3/03/98 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211
3/03/98 (S) MINUTE(STA)
3/04/98 2732 (S) STA RPT 4DP
3/03/98 2732 (S) DP: GREEN, DUNCAN, MACKIE, WARD
3/03/98 2732 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (S.STA)
3/05/98 (S) RLS AT 12:25 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
3/05/98 (S) MINUTE(RLS)
3/06/98 2769 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 3/6/98
3/06/98 2771 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
3/06/98 2771 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN
CONSENT
3/06/98 2771 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME SJR 38
3/06/98 2771 (S) COSPONSOR: LEMAN
3/06/98 2772 (S) PASSED Y15 N- E4 A1
3/06/98 2776 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
3/09/98 2561 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
3/09/98 2561 (H) WTR
3/18/98 (H) WTR AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 120
BILL: HJR 54
SHORT TITLE: ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) VEZEY, Ryan
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
1/30/98 2180 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
1/30/98 2180 (H) FISHERIES, WTR
2/25/98 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
2/25/98 (H) MINUTE(FSH)
2/27/98 2455 (H) FSH RPT 3DP
2/27/98 2455 (H) DP: HODGINS, KUBINA, IVAN
2/27/98 2455 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (H.FSH)
3/18/98 (H) WTR AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 120
WITNESS REGISTER
SENATOR JERRY MACKIE
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 427
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-4925
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SJR 38.
LEONARD JOHN, Associate Director
Kootznoowoo Cultural and Educational Foundation
P.O. Box 21683
Juneau, Alaska 99802
Telephone: (907) 790-2992
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of SJR 38.
MAXINE THOMPSON, Mayor
city of Angoon
P.O. Box 189
Angoon, Alaska 99820
Telephone: (907) 788-3653
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of SJR 38.
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 13
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3719
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HJR 54.
VINCE O'SHEA, Captain
Operations Plans and Policy Branch
Maritime Plans and Policy Division
Seventeenth Coast Guard District
United States Coast Guard
709 West 9th Street
Juneau, Alaska 99802
Telephone: (907) 463-2226
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 54.
TAPE 98-1, SIDE A
Number 0000
REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES called the House Special Committee on
World Trade and State/Federal Relations to order at 5:17 p.m.
Members present at the call to order were Representatives Barnes,
Kott, Phillips and Cowdery. Representative Kubina arrived at 5:29
p.m.
SJR 38 - APOLOGY TO VILLAGE OF ANGOON
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES announced the first order of business was SJR
38, Relating to the bombardment of the village of Angoon.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES called on Senator Jerry Mackie, sponsor of
the resolution.
Number 0076
SENATOR JERRY MACKIE, Alaska State Legislature, read the following
sponsor statement:
"I introduced SJR 38 to bring closure and finality to an
incident that occurred in the early years of Alaska's
territorial history that continues to be a painful memory
to the people of Angoon. The incident was the naval
attack that destroyed the village in the early winter of
1882. The action was caused by a dispute between the
village and a whaling company over the accidental death
of a tribal member in the company's employment. The U.S.
Navy interceded by shelling and burning the village and
its food stores. In addition to suffering injuries and
loss of life, the residents of Angoon struggled to
survive the difficult winter without adequate shelter or
food supplies.
"Memories and recollections of the injustice are still
very much alive among residents of Angoon. Almost every
family was deeply affected in some way from the death and
destruction. It is the opinion of elders in the
community that a simple apology by the U.S. government
would bring closure and finality to the incident. It
would redress long-standing feelings of disrespect and
victimization by the federal government and its lack of
acknowledging the unfortunate event. The resolution
requests that President Clinton issue an apology to the
people of Angoon."
SENATOR MACKIE stated, having represented Angoon for the last eight
years, it is a community that doesn't ask for anything. It is one
of the most traditional communities in the state in regards to its
appreciation of its culture, way of life, and families. It struck
him when reading the many different accounts of what took place
that there has never been an apology. The resolution does not talk
about restitution which may bring varying degrees of opinions.
SENATOR MACKIE further stated, after discussing the issue with the
elders, an apology is a legitimate thing for the state to ask from
the U.S. government. The passage of the resolution in the Senate
with a unanimous vote, and the early hearing of the resolution in
the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal
Relations has made the elders feel good. It still has a profound
effect on them, even though it was a long time ago.
Number 0350
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT asked Senator Mackie whether there was any
reason to exclude the Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, from
receiving a copy of the resolution.
Number 0367
SENATOR MACKIE replied, "No." He would be happy to include any
individuals to whom the committee members would like to have a copy
sent.
Number 0435
LEONARD JOHN, Associate Director, Kootznoowoo Cultural and
Educational Foundation, testified in Juneau. The foundation is
really glad that the committee is hearing the resolution today. He
recently reflected on the 100-year commemoration of the incident
that recognized the six lives lost. There is no way to put a
dollar value on the loss. One of his grandfathers, Charlie John
Senior, chose not to wear his regalia at the commemoration to
signify that the hurt was still there. It was his grandfather's
passion and desire to see the incident be brought to closure with
the U.S. government in order to start healing. There have been a
lot of lives impacted by the incident.
Number 0560
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS asked Mr. John whether his grandfather
is still alive.
MR. JOHN replied, "I wish he were."
Number 0599
MAXINE THOMPSON, Mayor, city of Angoon, testified in Juneau.
According to her understanding of what happened, it was a cultural
misunderstanding. At the time of a wrong doing, the life of a
high-ranking Tlingit is worth 200 blankets. Tlingits are known to
have a value of property and significance of the position of a
person. The incident was tied into the position of the person who
died. The person was high-ranking with a value of 200 blankets put
on his life, along with a two-day observation. Instead, the U.S.
Navy was informed in Sitka that the Indians were operating and
threatening to retaliate. The U.S. Navy boats did not immediately
start shelling the community. They came to Angoon and waited
offshore for two days talking to different individuals without an
interpreter. The person in charge of the U.S. Navy at the time was
not new to the area. The two other officers ahead of him had
recognized the cultural ways of the people and honored them. This
commander chose not to and demanded 400 blankets instead of the
traditional 200. The community members could only come up with 81
blankets. The Navy tied the canoes up, chopped them then proceeded
to shell the community houses that stored the winter food supply.
The Navy also destroyed the totem poles and took some artifacts.
If this is not put to rest, the story will continue to be passed
down. Tlingits are well known for their protocol as part of their
culture. The incident that remains unresolved dictates an apology,
and it needs to come from the U.S. government. It does not reflect
good on the U.S. government by leaving this unresolved for so long.
She has a hard time as an American knowing that the Japanese sent
to prison camps during the war have been acknowledged and granted
payment for their suffering, while other U.S. citizens have yet to
get an apology. The only thing that the people from Angoon
received when they went to Washington D.C. was a sailor hat. She
called it an insult.
Number 0949
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Senator Mackie whether he considered
including language in the resolution to urge the U.S. government to
erect a memorial for the lost lives.
Number 0989
SENATOR MACKIE replied the people who went to Washington D.C. in
1982 to try to receive compensation to replace some of the clan
houses received a token gesture. The Navy said it would consider
naming one of its ships after the village in their memory. It
never happened, however, and they returned with a Navy hat. The
Kootznoowoo Corporation continues to work on the issue. He felt
that a resolution asking for a simple apology would go a long way
to help the people. The citizens of Angoon will probably continue
to talk with Senator Stevens and the Navy for those types of
options. He didn't want to identify any one particular option in
the resolution. The citizens recognize that once the federal
government acknowledges the incident their chances for something
like that are better.
SENATOR MACKIE further stated in no way shape or form is the
resolution intended to be disrespectful to the U.S. armed forces.
The incident took place a long time ago and things are done
differently now.
Number 1109
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT made a motion to insert the language "the
Honorable Madeleine K. Albright, U.S. Secretary of State" after the
word "States" on page 1, line 17. There being no objection, it was
so moved.
Number 1172
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS made a motion and asked unanimous consent
to move SJR 38, as amended, out of the committee with individual
recommendations. There being no objection, HCS SJR 38(WTR) was so
moved from the House Special Committee on World Trade and
State/Federal Relations.
HJR 54 - ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES announced the next order of business was HJR
54, Relating to establishing maritime boundaries with Canada.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES called on Representative Al Vezey, sponsor of
the resolution.
Number 1227
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY, Alaska State Legislature, asked Captain
Vince O'Shea to join him from the United States Coast Guard.
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY stated Alaska is the only state in the union
that has two maritime boundaries - one with Canada and Russia - yet
there is no boundary treaty with either. The boundary between
Alaska and Canada stems back to the Anglo-Russo Treaty of 1825. It
was a period in history where the Russians and the British just
defeated Napoleon in 1814 and Europe was in a period of peace. The
treaty was one of the first international disputes settled
peacefully. The treaty stemmed from a problem in 1821 when the
Russian-American Company started to put restrictions on foreign
vessels fishing and trapping in Alaskan waters. Alaska was a
territory of Russia at the time. The territorial description of
the line of demarcation has not substantially changed since 1825.
There were some minor changes in 1903, but there is no maritime
boundary. Dixon Entrance is the area with the most disputes.
SJR 38 - APOLOGY TO VILLAGE OF ANGOON
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES announced the committee will take up SJR 38
again to adopt the fiscal note.
Number 1377
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS made a motion to adopt the zero fiscal note
for SJR 38(WTR). There being no objection, it was so adopted.
HJR 54 - ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES indicated the committee will resume
discussing HJR 54.
Number 1385
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT made a motion to adopt the proposed committee
substitute for HJR 54, version 0-LS1435\B, Bannister, 2/27/98, for
consideration. There being no objection, it was so adopted.
Number 1401
VINCE O'SHEA, Captain, Operations Plans and Policy Branch, Maritime
Plans and Policy Division, Seventeenth Coast Guard District, United
States Coast Guard, stated the U.S. and Canada do not have an
agreed upon maritime boundary. He referred to a chart that
illustrated the boundary lines claimed by the U.S. and Canada. The
area in between the two lines is called the disputed area. Both
countries have agreed to allow their fishing vessels in that area.
The Coast Guard has been patrolling in the Dixon Entrance area for
many years during the salmon season - June through September. The
purpose is to be available for search and rescue, and to ensure
that the U.S. vessels are not harassed by Canadian vessels in the
disputed area. In general, there are about one or two minor
violation cases. The Coast Guard doesn't have a position on the
resolution, but notes that it is consistent with the idea of
resolving a maritime boundary, a position that the State Department
has taken over the years.
Number 1518
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked Captain O'Shea why this boundary
wasn't brought up in 1984 when the International Court of Justice
set the other questionable boundaries.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied the Canadians didn't want to bring the issue
up because they would not have prevailed.
Number 1537
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked Captain O'Shea where the boundary is
in the Beaufort Sea.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied it is way up north. He did not bring a
chart to illustrate that boundary.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked Captain O'Shea how has the Beaufort
Sea boundary changed from what is perceived to be the Alaska-
Canadian boundary today.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied, "I don't know." He suspects that the issue
up there relates to the oil underneath the boundary.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS stated that is what she is concerned about.
Number 1561
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COWDERY asked Captain O'Shea whether the
boundary in Dixon Entrance has anything to do with the current
fishery dispute with Canada.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied it has a connection. It is an intense
symbol of sovereignty for the Canadians. It represents a potential
pressure point for people on both sides as a means of stirring up
controversy.
Number 1616
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY asked Captain O'Shea whether the proposed
new boundary is acceptable to Canada.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied, "Absolutely not." It is not a new
proposal. The U.S. claims the equidistant line between the land
masses in Dixon Entrance. The U.S. took the line drawn in 1903 as
a means to separate the islands in Dixon Entrance. In other words,
the islands north of the line belong to the U.S. and the islands
south of the line belong to Canada. Canada took the line drawn in
1903 as applying to the maritime boundary. The U.S. for many years
has claimed the equidistant line which is not acceptable to Canada.
Number 1682
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY asked Captain O'Shea whether the U.S. line
is disputed by Canada.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied, "Yes." Canada does not recognize it. It
recognizes that it is the equidistant line, but holds that the 1903
tribunal line is the maritime boundary, while the U.S. does not
recognize it as the maritime boundary.
Number 1729
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY asked Captain O'Shea whether the area is
heavily used for commercial fishing.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied there are several areas fished by trollers.
More Canadian vessels fish the area than U.S. vessels. There is
a concentration of U.S. gillnetters at Tree Point. Once in a while
there are seiners there as well. There are some black cod and
halibut fishers in the disputed area. Generally, the Canadians
have not had a problem with the U.S. fishers. They do have a
problem with the U.S. trollers operating within the disputed area.
Last year, they also said that they have a problem with charters
operating off of Newnez Rocks (ph).
Number 1779
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Captain O'Shea whether he is aware of any
problems that the state of Washington is facing similar to what
Alaska is facing.
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied there is an unresolved area in the Strait of
Juan de Fuca. It is a smaller sliver of water and the fishing
issues aren't as contentious, however. There is a boundary near
Blaine, Washington that is agreed upon and there is a good
relationship between the U.S. and Canada from an enforcement
standpoint. In fact, Canada cooperated with the U.S. in putting up
a giant range marker to make it easier for fishers to know where
the line is.
Number 1850
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY stated, in reference to Representative
Phillips' earlier question, there is no dispute along the Beaufort
Sea because there isn't a lot of activity at the moment, but the
maritime boundary is totally unresolved, including the line of
demarcation.
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY further stated that the Canadians have nothing
to win if they negotiate. The best the Canadians could hope for is
to hold the status quo. The Anglo-Russo Treaty of 1825 merely
states that the territory ceded starts from the southernmost point
of the Prince of Wales Island to Portland Channel. It doesn't talk
about a maritime boundary - a concept that didn't even exist in
1825. Most international courts would either establish a 12-mile
limit or an equidistant line.
Number 1942
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT made a motion to move the proposed committee
substitute for HJR 54, version 0-LS1435\B, Bannister, 2/27/98, out
of the committee with individual recommendations and the attached
fiscal note(s). There being no objection, CSHJR 54(WTR) was so
moved from the House Special Committee on World Trade and
State/Federal Relations.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1976
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES adjourned the House Special Committee on
World Trade and State/Federal Relations meeting at 5:50 p.m.
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