Legislature(1997 - 1998)
02/18/1997 05:00 PM House WTR
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
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HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WORLD TRADE
AND STATE/FEDERAL RELATIONS
February 18, 1997
5:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Ramona Barnes, Chair
Representative Alan Austerman, Vice-Chair
Representative John Cowdery
Representative Pete Kott
Representative Gene Kubina
Representative Gail Phillips
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Irene Nicholia
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 14
Relating to supporting the "American Land Sovereignty Protection
Act."
- MOVED HJR 14 OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HJR 14
SHORT TITLE: SUPPORT AMERICAN LAND SOVEREIGNTY ACT
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES, Barnes, Hodgins, Sanders,
Masek, Martin, Kemplen, Phillips, Cowdery, Vezey, Ryan, Porter,
Ogan
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/21/97 111 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/21/97 111 (H) WTR, STATE AFFAIRS
01/22/97 125 (H) COSPONSOR(S): PORTER, OGAN
02/13/97 (H) WTR AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/13/97 (H) MINUTE(WTR)
02/17/97 (H) WTR AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/17/97 (H) MINUTE(WTR)
02/18/97 (H) WTR AT 5:00 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 102
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Telephone: (907) 465-3743
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HJR 14.
MYRNA L. MCGHIE, Legislative Assistant
to Representative Jeannette James
State Capitol, Room 102
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Telephone: (907) 465-3743
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HJR 14.
GARY CADD
315 Gold Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-9863 x 101
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HJR 14.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-2, SIDE A
Number 001
The House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal
Relations was called to order by Chair Ramona Barnes at 5:00 p.m.
Members present at the call to order were Representatives Barnes,
Austerman, Kubina, Cowdery, and Kott. Members absent were Nicholia
and Phillips.
HJR 14 - SUPPORT AMERICAN LAND SOVEREIGNTY ACT
The first order of business to come before the House Special
Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations was HJR 14,
Relating to supporting the "American Land Sovereignty Protection
Act."
CHAIR RAMONA BARNES called on Representative Jeannette James,
sponsor of HJR 14, to present the resolution to the committee
members.
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES read the following sponsor statement
into the record:
"I have proposed this legislation on the premise that my greatest
responsibility as an Alaskan and as an Alaskan State Legislator is
to protect and defend the sovereignty of our Great State, and,
further, to support protection of sovereignty of our Great Nation.
"A little known fact is that, in 1971, the United States joined the
U.N. program calling for establishing `biosphere reserves' around
the world. These reserves are surrounded by buffer zones that
restrict human behavior. Forty seven national parks, which cover
51 million acres of land, are classified as these sanctuaries.
Sixty-eight percent of our national parks, preserves and monuments
have been designated to the United National Educational,
Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), to Biosphere
Reserves and World Heritage Sites, without any legislative or
congressional direction.
"Most disturbing is that 40.7 million acres of this land designated
to UNESCO are in the State of Alaska. A World Heritage Site in
Alaska is the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve (13.2
million acres). There are six Biosphere Reserves: Admiralty
Island National Monument (921,000 acres); Aleutian Islands National
Wildlife Refuge (2.7 million acres); Denali National Park and
Preserve (6.5 million acres); Gates of the Arctic National Park and
Preserve (7.5 million acres); Glacier Bay National Park and
Preserve (3.3 million acres); and Noatak National Preserve (6.6
million acres).
"There is legitimate concern about some possible international
interference during the decision processes on domestic lands. Too
often, we Alaskans have found ourselves under federal oversight
with no recourse.
"Soon we may find ourselves under International oversight! We must
not let this happen. This legislation will reaffirm the
constitutional authority of the Congress as elected representatives
of the people over the land of the United States. We want the
Congress to make these decisions with a public process, not the
President or his appointees. Please join with me in urging that
the `American Land Sovereignty Protection Act' be reintroduced and
passed by the United States House of Representatives and the United
States Senate as soon as possible during the 105th Congress."
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES further stated that an extended concern of
hers regarding the biosphere reserves was that they were surrounded
by a buffer zone. Sometimes the buffer zone was just as big as the
biosphere itself, and in the buffer zone human behavior was
restricted. Therefore, private land was also involved in this
issue. This sounded innocent, but "certainly we need not to take
these pieces of property and put them under a foreign flag-so to
speak-without any Congressional approval or oversight."
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES further stated she would be happy to answer
any questions. Myrna L. McGhie, Legislative Assistant to
Representative Jeannette James, was also here to answer any
questions.
Number 063
CHAIR BARNES asked Representative James, if there had ever been a
time in United State's history where it had allowed an
international organization to control or designate parts of its
land, without an act of Congress?
Number 066
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied, "To my knowledge, there has not, with
the exception of this activity."
Number 069
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT asked Representative James if this bill
was an executive lands taking bill on behalf of the international
community without Congressional consent?
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied, "That's a pretty good summary of what
I would say that it is."
Number 077
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT further asked Representative James if she had
any classic examples of the buffer zones she mentioned earlier?
Number 080
MYRNA L. MCGHIE, Legislative Assistant to Representative Jeannette
James, stated there was a picture from the internet in the package
of information provided.
Number 083
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES explained Yellowstone National Park had a
buffer zone that extended 250 miles around the edge of the park.
Number 086
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT stated that the United States had been involved
since 1971 and it was not until the 104th Congress that a bill was
introduced. He asked Representative James if that was because the
current Administration was more active in creating these zones, or
was it just time?
Number 095
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied, "I can't answer that specifically as
to what prompted that." She believed it had to deal with the fact
that the United States had been taking a real good look at the
restrictions and conditions placed on its land as a result of the
Endangered Species Act. and other acts. It was true that this
Administration had been more aggressive in shutting down the
activity. The signing of the 1993 Bio-Diversity Treaty by
President Clinton promised to put 50 percent of the land in the
U.S. into wilderness. The treaty had yet to receive Congressional
approval, however. Thus, the President was quietly implementing
some of the activity of the Bio-Diversity Treaty. She reiterated
that this Administration had been more aggressive in restricting
access to lands and tying up lands. It was scary when Alaska was
about one-fifth the size of the U.S., and such a massive amount of
land in federal control. "If they're going to put 50 percent of
the land in the United States in wilderness, where would they
start?" This was startling to think about especially since Babbitt
decided not to give Alaska any rights on its RS 2477s.
Number 127
REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN asked Representative James to explain
her comments surrounding President Clinton and the signing of the
Bio-Diversity Treaty. Was that provided as back-up material for
the committee members?
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied, "No. I just made that statement."
She explained it had to do with the gathering in Rio De Janeiro,
Brazil when President Bush would not sign anything. In 1993,
President Clinton signed the Bio-Diversity Treaty which was an
outcropping of the meeting in Brazil. She reiterated the treaty
needed Congressional approval. However, "They're still
implementing parts of that treaty as we speak."
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN replied even though it had not been
signed.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied even though it had not been approved
by Congress.
Number 147
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN stated that it was necessary to show a
pattern for the record to help support the efforts of
Representative James.
Number 150
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES responded, "We can certainly provide that. We
have massive amounts of information pulled from the internet and
all the various other places." She would be willing to include
that information with the bill.
Number 154
CHAIR BARNES stated she would appreciate it if Representative James
provided that information. More importantly, however, if the
resolution left the committee, that information should become part
of the public record when it went to the floor.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied she could build nice support out of
the material she had gathered.
Number 163
REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA stated he was not sure about the
resolution. "I don't know if this is one of these things that
people are afraid that the United Nations was taking over America."
He did not understand what the resolution meant. For example, if
something was designated a world heritage site by the United
Nations, what did that mean? What affect did that have? he asked.
Number 173
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied the part that concerned her was the
biosphere reserves. It sounded innocent and it was a good idea,
however, it should not be done without Congressional approval.
"There's a Constitutional authority for the Congress to be over all
of our domestic lands." And, here were lands that were being put
into a different kind of system that would be overlooked and
overseen by a United Nations organization without Congressional
approval. If there wasn't a problem, then present it to Congress
for approval. And, the biggest problem with the biosphere reserves
was that there were inn holders with private property within these
parks. There had been an effort to try to get them other land
outside of the sphere, but, meanwhile they were there without the
same rights as other private land owners. Furthermore, the buffer
zone was even more distressing because human activity was
restricted. The idea was to monitor the activity in the
transitional area and watch what happened in the biosphere reserve.
That sounded innocent enough and maybe that was a good scientific
project. But, she asked, "How much of this do we need and how is
each one of those going to affect the people that are involved in
and around there?" This should be done by a public process; not by
a stroke of a pen by an administrator.
CHAIR BARNES announced the arrival of Speaker Gail Phillips.
Number 223
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN stated he agreed with Representative James
that Congressional action should be taken rather than an executive
order. He asked Representative James if she was aware of any other
areas besides the parks that had been designated?
Number 234
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied only those that she listed earlier.
There was one world heritage site-the Wrangell-St. Elias National
Park and Preserve. The other six biosphere reserves that she named
were in Alaska.
Number 238
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked Representative James if the ones in
Alaska were done by Congressional authority or were they all done
by the stroke of a pen?
Number 240
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied they were all done by the stroke of a
pen. She read the following statement by Lois McHugh, Analyst in
International Relations-Foreign Affairs and National Defense
Division:
"Inclusion on the World Heritage List increases knowledge and
interest in sites throughout the world. It also brings
international attention and support to protect endangered sites.
In 1993, the World Heritage Committee supported the United States
in protecting Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve by publicizing
U.S. concerns about a Canadian open pit mine near the Bay and
reminding the Canadian government of its obligations under the
Convention to protect the site. In 1996, international concern,
including concern raised by U.S. citizens, was instrumental in
changing the plans of a Polish company to build a shopping center
near Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland."
CHAIR BARNES further stated this was a worldwide issue. "We had
some influence there, they had some influence here. We have
totally lost our sovereignty control over this land that is within
our borders. It is now managed by an agreement outside of the
United States."
Number 260
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked Representative James if any of the
information in his folder described the biosphere and what it
encompassed?
Number 265
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied, "I don't believe that we have a
description." She would provide him information later.
Number 267
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT referred the committee members to page 4 of the
handout title, "American Land Sovereignty Protection Act of 1996."
It talked about world heritage sites and national monuments
recognized by UNESCO. And, of course, UNESCO in itself was a
devious animal, he declared.
Number 284
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Representative James if there had been a
constitutional challenge regarding the land areas? It seemed that
Article IV, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution talked about the
powers of the need for Congress to make rules and regulations
governing the lands that belonged to the United States. Yet, there
was not Congressional oversight or approval of these areas in
question. It seemed that there was difficulty in matching what was
being done with the provision in the U.S. Constitution, unless-of
course-the President was using an executive order.
Number 297
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied the Antiquities Act of 1906 was one of
the ways that the government was setting lands aside which was a
Congressional decision. She did not know if the sum of the lands
that the government had been taking as parks was done under the
Antiquities Act, however. There was nothing in the Act to give
authority to an out-of-the country organization or worldwide
organization. That was the point and that was the claim in
Congressman Don Young's legislation.
Number 314
CHAIR BARNES stated what concerned her was that people fought over
land within the borders of countries. It seemed that instead of
fighting war we were just signing the land away. She asked
Representative James if that was a fair assumption?
Number 318
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied that was her assumption too. In
response to Representative Kubina's concern she stated, "Much of us
do have our head in the sand and these little things don't seem
like big things until all of a sudden you get a lot of them."
Therefore, it's important to feel safe and to feel that there had
been a public process to make these decisions.
Number 325
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he did not know much about this
issue other than what he had read in the package of information
provided. He suspected that this was similar to what was happening
to the Amazon in South America-damage that affected the world's
climate. "I assume that an organization like this is trying to say
how do we deal with this when we know that's not a good way to
handle it and it may affect the weather patterns in the whole
world. And, so how else do you do it-I guess-other than say okay
now we set up some kind of standard in the world because the world
is getting so small." He agreed, whole heartedly that we should
not give up control of our lands. "How do we talk to other people
about protecting their land if we don't say, at least, that we're
protecting ours?" This was pure speculation about what was going
on, however.
Number 342
CHAIR BARNES replied that was an interesting speculation. She
stated that she appreciated the rainforest and the Amazon River,
but it was within the country to deal with those issues. "It
should not be things that we impose from a world organization from
the outside." At least, that was her assumption. She reiterated,
"History has noted that we normally fight wars over control of land
and it seems to me that we're giving up land that nobody has fired
a bullet over in this case."
CHAIR BARNES further expressed her commendation for Representative
James to bring this issue forward.
Number 357
GARRY CADD was the first person to testify in Juneau. He worked
for Representative Mark Hodgins, but he was speaking today on
behalf of himself. He wondered if that was possible.
CHAIR BARNES replied there was a rule in the legislature that staff
did not speak on behalf of themselves. "But, since you're here,
we'll make an exception this time."
MR. CADD explained he drove to Juneau via the Haines Junction
cutoff. At 3:00 in the morning he noticed the Kluani National
Wilderness sign. The sign also said world heritage. Moreover,
eighteen months ago President Clinton made the statement that the
Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) would not be opened up for
oil drilling because there were plans to turn it into a world park
or a research area. He was concerned because the biosphere
research areas would be controlled and governed by a committee of
which the leader would be from the country that the land was in.
In addition, there was no oversight from Congress as to who the
members would be. Subsequent statements made by the President and
the Vice President surrounding ANWR indicated they were thinking of
incorporating ANWR into the Canadian national park just across the
border. He also noted that the Canadians were thinking about
turning that park into a world heritage site. Therefore, he
wondered if there was the possibility of losing ANWR and the
possibility of drilling there forever. "There's an opportunity for
something to happen here that we probably should be keeping our
eyes on."
Number 389
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked Representative James if she had
asked the national parks and the wildlife refuges to provide an
overlay to determine if the buffer zones went outside of the
original design of the parks?
Number 395
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied, "No I haven't." She explained the
national park and the state park officials wanted to deny access
along the area of the Denali National Park for snowmobiles and for
other kinds of uses. When they were asked why they were doing
this, they could not give a reason. She suspected, however, that
the national park service was doing this to restrict the buffer
zone area. She planned to research that further for more
information. There was absolutely no reason for the restriction
except because they thought it was a good idea.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES further stated that it was easy to address
environmental issue when there was money involved. And, in this
country there was an industry and an economy that allowed for the
rules and regulations to protect the environment. But, in other
countries there was no way to protect the environment, especially
in the poorer countries. "But, if you tighten it down so much so
that all of the land is taken off as an option, and you crowd them
in so that everything is reserved and there is not enough left for
the people to make a living on, then we'll have the same problems
in this country because people will cut trees. They will do the
things that they have to to survive. Even if they have to do it as
outlaws." She agreed with Chair Barnes that wars were fought over
land. And, "If we continue in the process that we're doing, there
will be wars fought over our land in not too many years. We have
to be very cautious and take innocent steps as we go through this
process and do it with a good open mind and public process."
Number 432
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT stated he was still puzzled regarding the
constitutional concern he mentioned earlier. It seemed that by
becoming a party to these international land use areas through
executive branch action, the U.S. was bringing to terms
international treaties, of which, we were not a party to. He cited
the Bio-Diversity Treaty, of which, the Senate failed to ratify.
"We do have a definite problem regarding the separations of powers
and the checks and balances that were built into the Constitution
in 1787." He commended the honorable Don Young for bringing forth
this matter before Congress. He hoped that he would bring if forth
again.
Number 444
CHAIR BARNES called on a motion to move the resolution from the
committee.
Number 445
REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN moved that HJR 14 move from the committee
with individual recommendations and attached fiscal note(s). There
was no objection, HJR 14 was so moved from the House Special
Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 451
CHAIR BARNES adjourned the House Special Committee on World Trade
and State/Federal Relations meeting at 5:30 p.m.
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