Legislature(2001 - 2002)
03/26/2002 02:26 PM House TRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
March 26, 2002
2:26 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Vic Kohring, Chair
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Drew Scalzi
Representative Peggy Wilson
Representative Mary Kapsner
Representative Albert Kookesh
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Scott Ogan
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 502
"An Act relating to the designation of and funding for rustic
roads and highways; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 502
SHORT TITLE:RUSTIC ROADS AND HIGHWAYS
SPONSOR(S): TRANSPORTATION
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
02/27/02 2408 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
02/27/02 2408 (H) TRA, FIN
02/27/02 2408 (H) REFERRED TO TRANSPORTATION
03/05/02 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/05/02 (H) Heard & Held
03/05/02 (H) MINUTE(TRA)
03/19/02 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/19/02 (H) Heard & Held
03/19/02 (H) MINUTE(TRA)
03/26/02 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17
WITNESS REGISTER
MIKE KRIEBER, Staff
to Representative Vic Kohring
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 24
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: As committee aide, explained a possible
amendment to HB 502 and answered questions.
MIKE DOWNING, Director/Chief Engineer
Division of Statewide Design & Engineering Services
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities (DOT&PF)
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7898
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 502; spoke to the portion
of the bill that was formerly HB 473.
JEFF OTTESEN, Planning Chief
Division of Statewide Planning
Alaska Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7898
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 502; gave specific
information about a new funding category similar to rustic
roads.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 02-9, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR VIC KOHRING called the House Transportation Standing
Committee meeting to order at 2:26 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Kohring, Scalzi, Masek,
Wilson, and Kapsner. Representative Kookesh arrived as the
meeting was underway. [For the joint House/Senate overview on
the Port of Bellingham, see the 1:35 p.m. minutes for this
date.]
HB 502-RUSTIC ROADS AND HIGHWAYS
[Contains discussion pertaining to HB 473, which previously had
been rolled into HB 502, Version B]
CHAIR KOHRING announced that the matter before the committee was
HOUSE BILL NO. 502, "An Act relating to the designation of and
funding for rustic roads and highways; and providing for an
effective date."
Number 0180
MIKE DOWNING, Chief Engineer, Division of Statewide Design &
Engineering Services, Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities (DOT&PF), testified before the committee. He noted
that he would speak to Section 4 of HB 502 - the portion that
formerly was HB 473.
MR. DOWNING expressed the department's concern about adding more
steps to the process of developing a transportation project. He
said HB 502 would add steps and cause delays to the development
of projects. Mr. Downing spoke about the difficulties posed to
transportation projects by Environmental Impact Statements. He
told the committee that getting through the process is hard
enough without adding an extra step.
MR. DOWNING also expressed concern about rural transportation
projects. Alaska receives $5.20 for every dollar of gas tax
contributed to the federal highway trust fund, he told members,
which is indicative of Alaska's unique needs. He said this
bill, and its adherence to the model of other states, would send
a message that Alaska does not have unique transportation needs
and therefore does not require additional funding.
CHAIR KOHRING asked Mr. Downing if it was his opinion that the
portion of HB 502 that deals with cost-benefit analysis would
slow down the road project approval process in rural areas.
MR. DOWNING said rural projects most likely will not have
positive cost-benefit analyses.
CHAIR KOHRING said he did not want to complicate things and make
it worse. He asked Mr. Downing what language he would like to
see stricken from the bill.
Number 0612
MR. DOWNING expressed concern about Section 5, which deals with
projects of more than three years in length. Currently,
projects lasting more than three years must return before the
legislature for reapproval. He noted that projects that spur
social or economic controversy usually last more than three
years. Mr. Downing said if there is concern about a project,
there is always the chance to address that concern at the time
of reapproval.
CHAIR KOHRING told Mr. Downing that there was a previously
prepared amendment that might simplify the process [of project
approval].
Number 0722
MIKE KRIEBER, Staff to Representative Vic Kohring, Alaska State
Legislature, testified before the committee as committee aide to
the House Transportation Standing Committee, sponsor of the
bill. He told the committee the amendment he'd passed around
did not deal specifically with the three-year time period Mr.
Downing had discussed. Rather, it would limit the bill to
surface transportation projects - taking out the Alaska Marine
Highway System (AMHS) issues. The second change would ensure
that projects with public health ramifications and that provide
access to airport and port facilities would be immune to cost-
benefit ratios. That amendment read [original punctuation
provided]:
1. page 5, line 9,
insert "surface" between "new .... transportation"
2. Section 5, paragraph (f), page 6, line 2
"unless (1) the bill is accompanied by a written cost-
benefit analysis of the project including a detailed
justification for the project, or (2) the project is
required to access a community's airport, port, or
health or sanitation facility, or is funded through
the rustic road program."
Number 0982
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if "the rustic road program" in this
bill was something new.
CHAIR KOHRING answered yes.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if the bill would create four rustic
roads in Alaska.
MR. KRIEBER said the bill would create a new category. It
identifies three existing roads and specifies that they must
remain rustic. The fourth road is a new one that would access a
high-potential gold mine site.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if that new road would be defined as
"rustic."
MR. KRIEBER answered by saying a rustic road is defined as one
that will not be paved.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if all of the roads were in the same
district.
Number 1056
MR. KRIEBER said no. He listed the proposed rustic roads as the
Copper River Highway, the Denali Highway, the Hatcher Pass Road,
and the new one, which would be near the Kuskokwim River.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked how the Hatcher Pass Road was
selected.
MR. KRIEBER said roads slated for paving that had very little
traffic were scrutinized. Low-usage roads were considered for
rustic classification.
Number 1165
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said she felt the Hatcher Pass Road should
be taken out of the proposed rustic road category.
MR. KRIEBER stated that the bill does not say rustic roads
cannot be improved; it just specifies that they cannot be paved.
Number 1209
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH referred to Section 19 and said it did
not make sense to him. A road built for economic reasons ought
to be paved. He said Representative Masek's concern about an
area that she is familiar with also was causing him some
concern. He said he could not find anything positive about the
bill. He characterized it as a waste of time.
Number 1256
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked which road was on the way to a gold
mine. She asked if 5 percent of transportation money would have
to be spent on the rustic road system as a result of the bill.
MR. KRIEBER answered that rustic roads would be defined as roads
and trails. He said the bill would allocate 5 percent of
transportation funds to rustic roads and trails. He mentioned
"pioneer road access" and said the rustic road category provides
a funding mechanism for pioneer roads.
Number 1307
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON made clear she thought rustic roads to be
a great idea, but she pointed out that some roads in her
district are in desperate need of improvement. She asked how
much 5 percent of the transportation budget would be.
MR. KRIEBER replied that it would not mean 5 percent being taken
from local roads. The 1 percent reduction in the Community
Transportation Program funds would be put towards the rustic
roads and trails category.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if the funds would be taken out of
her community's transportation program and put somewhere else.
MR. KRIEBER said the money would come from the statewide funding
category of the Community Transportation Program.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked for the total number that the 5
percent would represent.
Number 1478
JEFF OTTESEN, Planning Chief, Division of Statewide Planning,
Alaska Department of Transportation & Public Facilities,
testified before the committee. He said approximately $350
million a year is available in the form of "formula money" -
money not earmarked by Congress, and generally flexible - and 5
percent of that is about $17.5 million.
Number 1497
MR. KRIEBER clarified that 1 percent was taken from the
Community Transportation Program, 1 percent from the Alaska
Highway program, and 3 percent from the TRAAK program; all of
these were applied to the rustic roads program. He further made
clear that the definition of rustic roads includes trails.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked who would lose the $17.5 million
under the bill. She posited, "You're going to fix roads that
you don't even want fixed." She said roads in her district will
lose improvement funds to roads where people do not even want
them improved.
Number 1580
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH stated, "Transportation money is
transportation money." He said $17.5 million would go a long
way toward the budget deficit that is plaguing the Alaska Marine
Highway System.
MR. KRIEBER said tens of millions of dollars were coming out of
roads in other areas to repair roads that people did not want to
see paved. The department would spend much less on those roads
under the bill.
CHAIR KOHRING added that the thrust of the legislation was to
disagree with DOT&PF's prioritization of roads to upgrade, and
to state that some of that money should be used elsewhere.
Number 1646
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON indicated she didn't see that in the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH said the bill was confusing, and that it
did not make sense.
Number 1666
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked Chair Kohring if he was using the
bill to say he was unhappy with the way the department was
managing its money, and if the bill was an effort by the
legislature to "micromanage them."
CHAIR KOHRING told Representative Kapsner she was correct.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked Mr. Downing for an overview of what
the amendment would do to affect the bill and the department.
Number 1705
MR. DOWNING said his concerns for the rural projects were still
in existence. The amendment would list many included allowable
projects that would not have to go through the cost-benefit
process. Not included on the list are many other significant
kinds of projects that include economic development, safety,
recreation, quality of life, environmental issues, and fish
passage as their bases. He said that body of projects would be
left unaddressed. He referred to Title 6 of the Civil Rights
Act and said it gives the department a duty to equitably
distribute [highway] funds. He pointed out that the department
is not allowed to execute a program that has a disparate impact
on minority or economically disadvantaged populations. He
expressed his feeling that the amendment will not satisfy the
requirements of that duty.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said she was interested in the Donlin
Creek project, and asked how that would fit into the development
of the mine there.
Number 1801
MR. OTTESEN responded that the project is a road that would run
between the Kuskokwim River and the proposed mine site. The
mine needs a way to haul fuel for ore processing. He said it
would be an industrial road serving a single owner, not a
community. He characterized the project as a multibillion-
dollar mine looking for a handout from government when there are
many other projects in the state without the means to pay for
themselves.
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked how [the Donlin Creek project]
ranks on the STIP (Statewide Transportation Improvement
Program).
MR. OTTESEN said the department has been in contact with [the
interested company]. He characterized the project as an
excellent candidate for something like AIDEA (Alaska Industrial
Development and Export Authority), much like the Red Dog Mine.
Giving a "bonus" to one individual mine is the wrong public
policy, he added.
Number 1870
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked what projects would be bumped off
the list in the region [if the Donlin Creek project were to go
through].
MR. OTTESEN said the road to the mine would cost approximately
$50-75 million. This would bump fifteen $5-million projects out
of the STIP. He said the result would be a tremendous ripple
effect for several years in the region. But he added that the
Environmental Impact Statement could take ten years.
Number 1895
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked how many miles of road would be
built for the Donlin Creek project.
MR. OTTESEN said 22-25 miles. He added that it would be all new
construction.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI made reference to a discussion with Mr.
Ottesen before the meeting during which they'd talked about new
regulations recently put out by DOT&PF. The new system would
address some of the same problems that the rustic road program
was trying to remedy. He asked how the new system might put
some of the rustic roads in a better position than the current
one.
MR. OTTESEN claimed authorship of the regulations, and said they
were less than two weeks old. The Alaska Highway System - a new
STIP category - gives a class of roads "out in the middle of
nowhere" that do not rise to the status of the National Highway
System, a funding category. Only 8 percent of the STIP -
$20,000 per mile - is allocated to these roads. He said this is
the lowest amount of money received by any of the categories.
Mr. Ottesen pointed out that the funding in DOT&PF's new
regulations would provide for the construction of basic, rural,
standard roads. He stated that HB 502 would make these types of
roads the most lavishly funded category of roads in the state,
more so than the National Highway System or the Community
Transportation Program.
Number 2040
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI expressed his curiosity in the Alaska
Highway System. Part of the problem was that some of the roads
would never be able to meet standards or traffic counts, he
said. He asked how the Alaska Highway System would change that.
MR. OTTESEN answered that the Alaska Highway System took those
roads out of competition process with local roads in urban
areas. Communities were coming into the STIP process and
putting matching money on the table, thereby giving them more
points in the scoring process, and moving them ahead of the
rural road projects in the Alaska Highway System. The new
regulations would make sure a small amount would be set aside
for the commissioner's discretion. As for the issue of paving,
Mr. Ottesen indicated there is a need because of the lack of
maintenance funds to run graders. As the operating budget is
cut, the department is forced to deal with problems by means of
the capital budget.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked if the rustic category in HB 502
would fit into the Alaska Highway System category of the new
regulations.
MR. OTTESEN said yes.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked about the nomination and rating
criteria.
MR. OTTESEN said there is no scoring process for the category.
Number 2182
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked who rates the roads. He raised the
issue of standards and how those would apply to the cost.
MR. OTTESEN said the commissioner would rate the roads with
input from staff.
Number 2195
MR. DOWNING told the committee that statute requires the
department to follow the American Association of State Highway
and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) standards. He said AASHTO
has recently produced a low-volume roads guide that establishes
standards for roads with traffic rates of less than 250 cars per
day. Those standards are much easier to meet than the National
Highway System standards.
Number 2225
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked about the specifics of the
standards, and whether they would be cost-prohibitive.
MR. DOWNING said every road foundation condition is different,
but the [low-volume road] standards would be much lower.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked if winter or summer closures could
be a part of the new category. He said many roads need to be
developed for summertime use only.
MR. DOWNING said the department could determine to close the
roads in the winter. He referred to an attorney general's
opinion stating that the department's duty to maintain roads
runs only as long as it has funding.
Number 2334
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if a [summer-only] road could be
designated in another existing category.
MR. DOWNING said it could.
CHAIR KOHRING announced that HB 502 would be held over.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Transportation Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:15
p.m. [For the joint House/Senate overview on the Port of
Bellingham, see the 1:35 p.m. minutes for this date.]
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