04/10/2001 01:45 PM House TRA
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
April 10, 2001
1:45 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Vic Kohring, Chair
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Drew Scalzi
Representative Peggy Wilson
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Scott Ogan
Representative Mary Kapsner
Representative Albert Kookesh
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 12
"An Act relating to the offense of operating a motor vehicle,
aircraft, or watercraft while intoxicated; relating to
presumptions arising from the amount of alcohol in a person's
breath or blood; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 12
SHORT TITLE:REDUCE PERCENTAGE FOR DWI
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)KOTT
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
01/08/01 0026 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 12/29/00
01/08/01 0026 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
01/08/01 0027 (H) TRA, JUD, FIN
04/03/01 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
04/03/01 (H) -- Meeting Canceled --
04/10/01 (H) TRA AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 17
WITNESS REGISTER
ROGER WORTMAN, Staff
to Representative Pete Kott
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 204
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of the sponsor of HB
12.
DOUG WOOLIVER, Administrative Attorney
Office of Administrative Director
Alaska Court System
820 West 4th Avenue
Anchorage Alaska 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on HB 12.
KACE McDOWELL, Executive Director
Anchorage Cabaret Hotel Restaurant & Retailers Association
(CHARR)
(No address provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 12.
ALVIA "STEVE" DUNNAGAN, Lieutenant
Division of Alaska State Troopers
Department of Public Safety
5700 East Tudor Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99507
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 12.
MARY MARSHBURN, Director
Division of Motor Vehicles
Department of Administration
3300B Fairbanks Street
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 12.
CRAIG PERSSON
Legislative Liaison
Public Safety Employees Association
4300 Boniface Parkway
Anchorage, Alaska 99504
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 12.
CINDY CASHEN
Mothers Against Drunk Driving
211 4th Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 12.
LOREN JONES, Director
CMH/API Replacement Project
Division of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities
Department of Health & Social Services
PO Box 110620
Juneau, Alaska 99824
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on the fiscal note for
HB 12.
MARY MORAN, Administrator
Highway Safety Office
Division of Statewide Planning
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 12.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 01-27, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR VIC KOHRING called the House Transportation Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:45 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Kohring, Scalzi, Wilson, and
Masek.
CHAIR KOHRING noted that he had sent a letter to Michele Brown,
Commissioner [of the Department of Environmental Conservation]
having to do with the [task force's] legislation dealing with
the cruise ships [HB 55]. The letter is intended to have the
commissioner provide an explanation as to the justification for
the legislation in light of the fact that there are already some
state statutes on the books that are believed to oversee the
industry. He added that there is also the issue of graywater
contaminates.
HB 12-REDUCE PERCENTAGE FOR DWI
[Contains discussion of HB 4]
CHAIR KOHRING announced that the committee would consider HOUSE
BILL NO. 12, "An Act relating to the offense of operating a
motor vehicle, aircraft, or watercraft while intoxicated;
relating to presumptions arising from the amount of alcohol in a
person's breath or blood; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0267
CHAIR KOHRING addressed Roger Wortman, Staff to Representative
Pete Kott, and stated that [the committee] has already heard DWI
(driving while intoxicated) legislation and had addressed the
.08 [blood alcohol concentration (BAC)] legislation. He said
[the committee members] want solid justification as to why they
need to hear this again.
ROGER WORTMAN, Staff to Representative Pete Kott, Alaska State
Legislature, came forth on behalf of Representative Kott,
sponsor of HB 12. He said Representative Kott felt this had a
better chance of going through [the legislature] on a stand-
alone basis. Having it rolled up with other issues, like those
in HB 39, really exacerbates the fiscal note.
CHAIR KOHRING noted that he had spoken with Representative
Rokeberg about his bill; it had moved out of the House Judiciary
Standing Committee and is stuck in the House Finance Standing
Committee. Concern was expressed about the fiscal note.
Number 0364
MR. WORTMAN offered the sponsor statement for HB 12:
Operating motor vehicles under the influence of
alcohol has been a major problem in Alaska for a long
time. This legislation reduces the amount of alcohol
a person can have in their blood while operating motor
vehicles. The number of accidents and deaths that
occur due to the operation of motor vehicles while
under the influence of alcohol is an ongoing problem.
Alaska ranks number five in the nation for alcohol-
related incidences. It is imperative the state takes
action to reduce this serious problem.
Strengthening the current statutes, by lowering the
amount of alcohol in a person's blood to .08, serves
as a deterrent for operating any type of motor
vehicle. Any costs associated with the implementation
of this legislation will be beneficial in the long
run, as it will save lives. This bill affords local
law enforcement agencies a better instrument in the
prosecution of offenders. The Alaska Peace Officers
Association, the Public Safety Employees Association,
... Mothers Against Drunk Driving, and other similar
organizations support this.
This legislation is imperative for the State of Alaska
to follow the lead of the federal government in
lowering the amount of alcohol a person can have in
that person's blood while operating motorized
vehicles. If this legislation fails, the State of
Alaska stands to lose federal highway funds at a rate
2 percent after 2004, 4 percent after 2005, 6 percent
after 2006, 8 percent after 2007, and so on. I found
out recently ... that the Senate in Washington has
passed a version to change the 2 percent to 5 percent
the first year, and to attempt to increase it 10
percent each following year. ... I must remind the
committee that although this bill has a significant
fiscal note, HB 12 should be looked at as a policy
issue rather than an expensive bill.
Number 0555
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI referred to page 2 [of the bill] regarding
the difference between the .04 and .08 [BAC]. He said there is
a gray area between .04 and .08. The last sentence of paragraph
(2) states, "but that fact may be considered with other
competent evidence in determining whether the person was under
the influence of intoxicating liquor." He asked Mr. Wortman why
that is in there.
MR. WORTMAN agreed it is a gray area and said he couldn't answer
that.
Number 0647
DOUG WOOLIVER, Administrative Attorney, Office of Administrative
Director, Alaska Court System, came forth and stated that these
provisions are in existing law. He said there are three
presumptions. A person can be pulled over and arrested for DWI
even if he or she is below .08 BAC, but then there is a higher
burden of proof. This would just lower those percentages so
that below a point .04 BAC there is a presumption that the
person is not intoxicated. Between .04 and .08, there is no
presumption one way or the other. Above a .08 BAC, the
presumption is that the person is intoxicated.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked whether this is currently in
statutes, but at a different level.
MR. WOOLIVER answered affirmatively.
CHAIR KOHRING stated that he has a variety of concerns with this
legislation. He said the one issue that is going to be most
convincing to him is how effective lowering [the BAC] to .08 is
going to be, aside from the issue of money. He asked Mr.
Wooliver what evidence he could provide that this would work.
MR. WOOLIVER answered that he has done a lot of research on this
and the fact is there is no concrete evidence that states that
lowering the blood alcohol content (BAC) reduces incidences of
traffic deaths. From his experience researching other states,
he remarked that this is a tool when tied in with other
legislation will definitely help decrease the umber of alcohol-
related traffic incidences.
Number 0918
KACE McDOWELL, Anchorage Cabaret Hotel Restaurant & Retailers
Association (CHARR), testified via teleconference. She stated:
Some of the states have decided not to deal with this
.08 issue at this time simply because they do not like
the idea of being blackmailed into it by the federal
government. Also, several state attorney generals are
now forming a lawsuit addressing the
unconstitutionality of the .08 federal blackmail
mandate. ...
I know we do have time, so CHARR would ... like to see
this maybe delayed, unless it is the wishes of the
state legislature that we go to .08 on our own and not
out of a blackmail situation.
I do believe that .08 targets more the responsible,
social drinker than it does our real problem. So ...
one of our biggest concerns at CHARR is the really big
problem drinker and the underage drinking. ...
Also, my biggest concern, speaking for CHARR, ... is
the fiscal note which I know is attached to the .08
bill that's involved with Representative Rokeberg's
House Bill 4. The money that we would spend to
enforce this is more than the small amount of money
we'd be receiving this year; it's something like
$800,000 we might receive this year to a $3 million
fiscal note.
I also just want to bring to the committee's attention
... [the question of whether] we want to spend $3
million on enforcing a .08, which is targeted at
mostly our responsible drinkers ... [or] spend that $3
million enforcing the laws we already have on the
books, which would help us eliminate this chronic
drinker that's giving us most of the problems -
because there are laws to keep these people off the
roads that don't have driver's licenses, and also
there's [a] new law going in ... on our wellness
courts or our therapeutic courts that will also help
[get the ones well who] want to, and we are going to
need money to put there also.
Number 1083
ALVIA "STEVE" DUNNAGAN, Lieutenant, Division of Alaska State
Troopers, Department of Public Safety, testified via
teleconference. He stated:
From an enforcement perspective, the Department of
Public Safety would support this bill to reduce the
current presumptive level from .10 to .08. I think
that it is and will serve as an active deterrent to
people to keep them off the road after they've had a
few to drink. It's like a padlock. ... Padlocks keep
the honest people honest.
I think the reduced BAC would help to keep those other
people that are in that marginal area off the road.
Everybody seems to think or has an understanding that
the people who have humongous BACs are the most
dangerous people out there. But I would submit to you
that there's been numerous studies that .08, .09,
[and] .10 are just as dangerous, if not more
dangerous, because those are the ones who have
consumed enough alcohol to affect their abilities to
operate a car, which is a fairly complex operation.
And yet they haven't had enough to know or think that
they are impaired for the purposes of driving.
So what you have is ... an .08, .09 person who thinks
he's not intoxicated and who believes he can drive 80
[miles per hour] safely, which ... is not the case
because his judgment is already impaired. ... It
doesn't matter if they are .08, .09, .10, 1.2, 1.5, or
2.5. As far as a problem, they're all problems and
they're all dangerous.
I've worked the road for approximately 18 years and,
frankly, the death and carnage that happens on our
road system is terrible. I understand that this is a
money issue for the state, but this isn't a money
issue for the people of Alaska, I don't believe, or
the law enforcement people.
This is another tool, like the Representative said.
It is just one more piece in a large puzzle, and we're
going to get there one day with the whole picture in
place and be extremely effective. But right now, we
need the little pieces to put together so we can start
moving in that direction.
Number 1236
MARY MARSHBURN, Director, Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV),
Department of Administration, testified via teleconference. She
stated:
DMV also supports the bill, which would reduce the
blood alcohol level to .08. For those new on the
committee, when someone is arrested for DWI, a two-
pronged process begins. One is prosecution in the
courts for the criminal law violation. The other one
is an administrative process before DMV, whose focus
is usually public road safety and driver behavior for
revocation of a license.
Last year, DMV revoked 4,700 licenses for alcohol-
related offenses, largely DWI. The experience of
states that have reduced the blood alcohol level to
.08 and the reports from the Department of Justice
indicate that once the level has been reduced, once
law enforcement has received training, [and] once the
agencies become accustomed ... to looking for the
lower blood alcohols, you can have as much as a 20
percent increase in arrest rates - anywhere from 5 to
20 percent. So we would expect that, yes, there would
be an impact from lowering the blood alcohol level and
an increase in safety on the roads.
Number 1342
CRAIG PERSSON, Legislative Liaison, Public Safety Employees
Association (PSEA), came forth in support of HB 12. He stated:
The Public Safety Employees Association fully supports
House Bill 12. Many people are killed and severely
injured on our roads every year. Many of the drivers
that are involved in these accidents are impaired by
alcohol. In our experience many are younger people,
who along with being inexperienced drivers ... are
also very inexperienced drinkers.
And I think Lieutenant Dunnagan of the troopers got to
the point that .08, .09, [and] .10 drivers are the
ones out there that are really the dangerous ones,
because they think they have the ... alcohol courage
that makes them go 80 [or] 90 miles an hour down a
road. And these are the people out there killing and
injuring and getting in accidents. This bill will go
a long way in getting these impaired drivers off the
road, and I think it will, in the long run, make our
roads a lot safer.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI asked Mr. Persson how he would respond to
the testimony that it is not the people with .08 BAC who are
causing the trouble but the ones who are the habitual drinkers.
MR. PERSSON responded that there are statistics he doesn't have
with him that would prove the opposite.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON, in agreement with Mr. Persson, referred
to information in the committee packet that indicates the number
of drinks in two hours of drinking and the amount of impairment.
She said even at .02 BAC, divided attention, reaction time, and
visual function start to be affected.
MR. PERSSON concurred and remarked that he has found younger
drivers below an .08 BAC who are very impaired.
Number 1520
CINDY CASHEN, Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), came forth
also as a victim of drunk driving. She stated:
MADD supports Representative Kott's bill. ... We feel
it is part of the key to reducing drunk driving in
Alaska. We feel this bill does not target the
responsible drinker because we feel the responsible
drinker does not drink and drive.
I have sent to you ... several studies, which back up
the proof that when .08 [as a legal limit] is passed
with other bills and by itself ... it does lower drunk
driving, and especially with younger drivers and also,
surprisingly, with chronic drunk drivers. ... We don't
know why, and we're certainly not going to question
it.
CHAIR KOHRING asked Ms. Cashen how many other states have
lowered their alcohol limits.
MS. CASHEN responded that it is hard to say right now because
Maryland's governor is [signing] it today, making it 26 states.
CHAIR KOHRING asked who did the test [provided for the committee
by MADD].
MS. CASHEN answered that there were two different studies. One
was done by a couple of professors at a university on the East
Coast.
Number 1663
CHAIR KOHRING asked, if the committee passes the bill, whether
the net result will be less drunk drivers on the roads, or
whether there would be more arrests of those who are the chronic
drinkers who get behind the wheel and drive.
MS. CASHEN responded that she doesn't feel confident in giving
that answer; however, in the studies she has looked at, she
would say both.
CHAIR KOHRING asked Ms. Cashen whether she knew the last time
[the BAC] was lowered in Alaska.
MS. CASHEN answered that it was lowered to .10 in 1983 after the
grandsons of the founder of the Anchorage MADD chapter, June
Garish, were killed by a first-time offender. She remarked that
it had previously been .12.
CHAIR KOHRING asked what the result of that was.
MS. CASHEN replied that she does not have those statistics. She
noted that a strong member of the alcohol industry has come out
in full force by announcing, on the steps of the capitol in
Washington, D.C., support of .08.
Number 1832
LOREN JONES, Director, CMH/API Replacement Project, Division of
Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities, Department of
Health & Social Services Department of Health & Social Services
(DHSS), came forth to answer questions on the fiscal note. He
informed the committee that the department is in support of the
bill. He clarified that the governor of Maryland and [the
governor of] Arizona have signed [similar bills].
CHAIR KOHRING asked Mr. Jones whether he has any information
about the correlation between [the BAC] level being lowered in
the past and a reduced incidence of [drunk driving].
MR. JONES responded that he does not have any information.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK noted that from the information provided
from MADD, it states that MADD does not have a position on the
BAC estimator.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked which fiscal note [was being used].
MR. JONES responded that there are two fiscal notes from DHSS.
Both relate to the .08 BAC. One is for the alcohol safety
action program, and one is for the alcohol and drug abuse grant.
He stated that with the estimations that [DHSS] has been given
by the Department of Public Safety, DMV, and the courts, there
would be about a 10 percent increase in the number of
convictions for drunk driving. Therefore, the fiscal notes
represent the additional persons who would be in the alcohol
safety action program statewide.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked whether the fiscal notes will be
added together.
MR. JONES replied that he believes there will be more fiscal
notes from other departments.
CHAIR KOHRING remarked that there was a concern brought forth
earlier by Kace McDowell, who noted that if [the committee]
looks at the fiscal note in a monetary perspective, the gain in
return would be $800,000 in road-related monies for an
expenditure of about $2.4 million. Looking at it from that
perspective, he said, it's not a justifying reason to pass the
legislation. He stated that to him it is more of any issue of
getting and keeping drunks off the road.
Number 2022
MARY MORAN, Administrator, Highway Safety Office, Division of
Statewide Planning, Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities, came forth and stated that she has recently been
talking with representatives from the national Century Council
who have all been in agreement with passing a .08 [BAC limit].
CHAIR KOHRING asked who makes up the Century Council.
MS. MORAN answered that it is basically levels of alcohol
distributors who are not beer distributors. She pointed out
that studies show that a .08 [limit], along with increased
enforcement and education, does make a difference. She remarked
that Alaska has a very high rate of drunk driving, which is
steadily going down over the years, possibly due to more
enforcement and education. In response to Chair Kohring's
request, she said she could provide a letter of support from the
Century Council.
Number 2139
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK referred to the federal law that was passed
last year under the Clinton Administration and asked Ms. Moran
how many states have enacted the .10 to .08 [BAC level] since
then.
MS. MORAN responded that it had been her understanding that 21
states had passed .08 laws.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked whether states had passed bills
because of the loss of the federal funding or in support of the
.08 [BAC].
MS. MORAN responded that the federal legislation doesn't go into
effect until 2004; therefore, states that are passing .08 right
now are either doing it because they think it is a good idea or
because they are anticipating the sanction of [the loss of]
federal funding. She added that since [the federal legislation]
only came out last summer, most likely very few of those states
have passed .08 [limits] because of the federal sanction.
Number 2239
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK requested information on how many states
have complied with the .08 based on the merit that it would
reduce drunk driving or because of the loss of federal funding.
MS. MORAN remarked that she thinks it will be a combination, and
doesn't think anyone would say, "We only passed it because the
[federal government] said we had to." She added that .08 has
been an ongoing discussion, and she thinks [the committee] will
find out that most states have passed .08 on its own merits,
because people think it's a good idea, and because of the
looming sanction.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK referred to a question from the Century
Council ".08 Event" in the committee's packet that read, "What
is the stance on the Century Council's BAC estimator? Do you
feel it is accurate?" She said MADD and the Department of
Public Health don't have a position on the BAC estimator. She
noted that it goes on to say, "We believe each state must make
their own decision on the best kind of public information
education efforts for their citizens." They do support a legal
BAC limit of .08, she said, noting that it goes on to say, "We
encourage people to designate a nondrinking driver if they plan
to drink alcohol."
MS. MORAN said the Century Council estimator is basically a CD-
Rom that provides percentages and how much a person needs to
drink before he or she reaches a certain percentage based on
weight. She added that she doesn't see it as anything but a
toy.
Number 2422
CHAIR KOHRING addressed Mr. Wortman and asked what kind of
compelling evidence there is that suggests a direct connection
between lowering the incidence of drunk driving and passing this
legislation. In addition, he asked whether the dollars can be
directed to education and enforcement as opposed to lowering the
[BAC level]. He noted that there was previous testimony that
lowering [the level] to .08, by itself, may not produce any
concrete change as far as the number of people on the roads,
because it is an issue that has to work in tandem with education
and enforcement.
MR. WORTMAN responded that there is no concrete evidence that
lowering the blood alcohol level by itself reduces [drunk
driving]; it is a tie-in to other bills.
TAPE 01-27, SIDE B
MR. WORTMAN continued, stating that as far as the money is
concerned, sooner or later something has to be done or else
[Alaska] is going to lose key highway funds. He said it was
stated earlier that [Alaska] would receive some incentive funds
for enacting this earlier, which is something the committee will
have to decide on. He reiterated that this is not a fiscal
situation but a policy situation.
Number 2428
CHAIR KOHRING, referring to statistics he had, stated that
deaths attributed to drunk driving incidents were approximately
70,000 in the United States as a whole 15 years ago, and are now
approximately 17,000. He said he doesn't know what that is
attributed to; however, progress is being made.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK commented that she can understand the
intent; however, she thinks the focus needs to be toward the
high-risk driver. She noted that the last page of the Century
Council's ".08 Event" states, "It must aggressively address the
hardcore drunk drivers."
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON stated:
My feelings are, where are we going to spend the
money? Obviously, we aren't spending the money on the
education end of it. ... We aren't even spending the
money to educate our kids in school. ... The money
issue - it's not whether we're going to spend it here
or we're going to spend it here, because we aren't
spending it at the other end.
If this saves one life, it's probably been worth it,
no matter what it costs. Whether it's blackmail or
whatever, the fact is, that's what's going to happen.
By us not putting this into effect, I don't think it's
going to affect one hill of beans what the federal
government does. They're just going to keep on
trucking; they don't care whether they have to give us
any money or not. So I think we have to look at the
facts.
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked Chair Kohring whether he was
planning on moving the bill out today.
CHAIR KOHRING responded that he didn't have any intention one
way or the other.
Number 2261
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI said he didn't see any changes he would
make to the bill, and therefore saw no advantage in leaving it
in the committee. He recommended moving HB 12 out of committee.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK pointed out that she had requested
information on a few topics.
CHAIR KOHRING asked Representative Scalzi whether he would be
amenable to holding the bill over in order to receive the
information.
REPRESENTATIVE SCALZI responded that he was amenable to whatever
Chair Kohring and the committee would like to do.
[HB 12 was held over.]
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Transportation Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:41
p.m.
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