Legislature(2003 - 2004)

02/03/2004 01:33 PM TRA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
            HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                        February 3, 2004                                                                                        
                           1:33 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Jim Holm, Chair                                                                                                  
Representative Beverly Masek                                                                                                    
Representative Vic Kohring                                                                                                      
Representative Dan Ogg                                                                                                          
Representative Nick Stepovich                                                                                                   
Representative Mary Kapsner                                                                                                     
Representative Albert Kookesh                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 213                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to a provisional driver's license and to                                                                       
issuance of a driver's license; and providing for an effective                                                                  
date."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHB 213(TRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 388                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to renewal of a driver's license by applicants                                                                 
25 years of age or younger; and providing for an effective                                                                      
date."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 213                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: PROVISIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE                                                                                       
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) WEYHRAUCH                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
03/26/03       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
03/26/03       (H)       TRA, L&C                                                                                               
04/01/03       (H)       TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
04/01/03       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/01/03       (H)       MINUTE(TRA)                                                                                            
04/03/03       (H)       TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
04/03/03       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/03/03       (H)       MINUTE(TRA)                                                                                            
04/15/03       (H)       TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              
04/15/03       (H)       Heard & Held/Subcommittee assigned                                                                     
04/15/03       (H)       MINUTE(TRA)                                                                                            
01/22/04       (H)       TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                              

01/22/04 (H) -- Meeting Postponed to 1/27/04 --

01/27/04 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17

01/27/04 (H) Heard & Held

01/27/04 (H) MINUTE(TRA) 02/03/04 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17 BILL: HB 388 SHORT TITLE: YOUNG CAN'T RENEW DRIVERS LICENSE BY MAIL SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MEYER

01/20/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS

01/20/04 (H) TRA 02/03/04 (H) TRA AT 1:30 PM CAPITOL 17 WITNESS REGISTER LINDA SYLVESTER, Staff to Representative Bruce Weyhrauch Alaska State Legislature Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Presented CSHB 213, Version X, on behalf of Representative Weyhrauch, sponsor, and answered questions. REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MEYER Alaska State Legislature Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as sponsor of HB 388. CINDY CASHEN, Executive Director Juneau Chapter Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of the four Alaska chapters of MADD in support of HB 388. DUANE BANNOCK, Director Division of Motor Vehicles Department of Administration Anchorage, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 388 and answered questions. KERRY HENNINGS, Driver Licensing Manager Division of Motor Vehicles Department of Administration Anchorage, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 388 and answered questions. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 04-3, SIDE A Number 0001 CHAIR JIM HOLM called the House Transportation Standing Committee meeting to order at 1:33 p.m. Representatives Holm, Stepovich, Kohring, and Kapsner were present at the call to order. Representatives Masek, Ogg, and Kookesh arrived as the meeting was in progress. HB 213-PROVISIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE Number 0064 CHAIR HOLM announced that the first order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 213, "An Act relating to a provisional driver's license and to issuance of a driver's license; and providing for an effective date." CHAIR HOLM requested a motion to adopt the new proposed committee substitute (CS). Number 0102 REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH [moved to adopt the proposed CS, Version 23-LS0786\X, Luckhaupt, 1/29/04, as a work draft]. CHAIR HOLM clarified the version and announced that the committee would take it up. [Version X was treated as adopted.] CHAIR HOLM recognized the arrival of Representatives Masek and Ogg. Number 0172 LINDA SYLVESTER, Staff to Representative Bruce Weyhrauch, Alaska State Legislature, spoke on behalf of Representative Weyhrauch, sponsor. She said Version X contains several changes made in response to testimony and comments received at the last hearing. The first change, on page 1, line 12, in the certification section, reduces the hours required to transition from a permit to a provisional license from 50 hours to 40 hours; she said this is to accommodate folks who live in less crowded areas of the state. MS. SYLVESTER noted that a handout shows a breakdown relating to [the amount of driving per week or month that would result in] 40 hours or 50 hours. In response to a request for an explanation from Chair Holm, she said a 14- or 15-year-old who has a permit is required to hold it for six months. This bill also requires the parent to certify a minimum amount of practice time. Ms. Sylvester remarked, "It's a very permissive statement. There's no ... enforcement of it." She said it's an educational tool to heighten awareness statewide of what's really required for a kid to be a competent novice driver. If the 40 hours is acquired over six months' time, this breaks down to 6.6 hours of driving each month, or 1.6 hours each week. AN UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER asked whether Ms. Sylvester believes that is sufficient. MS. SYLVESTER replied, "We think that's fair. Mothers Against Drunk Driving disagrees and would prefer that it stay at 50 hours. ... It's a judgment call." She noted that according to comments, Alaska has a requirement for 40 hours [of flying time] to get a private pilot's license; South Dakota, similar to Alaska in population and its division of rural and urban areas, has a 40-hour [driving] requirement; and California, which has a different kind of environment, and most of the other states have a 50-hour requirement. Saying the idea isn't to make people break the law by lying when they certify this, Ms. Sylvester emphasized that it's an educational tool that includes some driving during the nighttime or when the weather is bad and conditions might be icy. Number 0377 MS. SYLVESTER addressed the next change, on page 1, line 13, also in the certification section, which expands it from just "nighttime driving" to "including ... increasingly challenging circumstances, such as driving in inclement weather and nighttime driving". She explained that this language comes from a brochure provided to the committee that the Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV) will be distributing to all the kids who come in to get a license; this change reflects that Alaska has more challenging circumstances than just darkness. CHAIR HOLM recognized the arrival of Representative Kookesh a couple of minutes earlier. Number 0442 MS. SYLVESTER turned attention to page 2, line 26. She explained that once a provisional driver's license has been issued, there is a six-month restriction during which time kids cannot drive around between 1 and 5 a.m. There are two exceptions. The first is that they may drive around with an adult; the bill had said "25", but that was inconsistent with the other ages discussed in the driver's licensing statutes, and so it had been lowered [to age 21 in Version X]. The second is for a work permit; it had been suggested that the bill be very clear that a young person driving in the scope of employment, to and from work, would be exempted [from the restriction] in the middle of the night. She emphasized that it's just for the brief six-month period during which there are several protections for the novice driver. Number 0552 MS. SYLVESTER said the last change is important: on page 2, line 31, a new [subsection] (c) has been added in response to concerns that HB 213 might infringe upon the hardship license or off-systems restricted license that DMV issues. The desire is to be very clear that this bill doesn't deal with that at all. CHAIR HOLM asked Representative Kookesh whether that satisfies some of his concerns. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH said he'd talked to the sponsor and his staff about it. He emphasized that the off-systems license is "a different animal" and shouldn't be changed. CHAIR HOLM noted that Representative Kapsner had voiced concerns as well. He expressed appreciation that it had been addressed. Number 0603 REPRESENTATIVE OGG began discussion of a possible amendment. He said use of the word "employment" leaves out a spectrum in Alaska - commercial fishing people - because a crewmember isn't an employee and thus wouldn't fit under this. Therefore, he suggested a clarifying amendment is needed to say "or the person's commercial fishing work". MS. SYLVESTER agreed such an amendment could be made, but said the work permit is envisioned to most likely be issued through the police departments that enforce this. Saying she doesn't think it will be a "rigorous, ... hard-and-fast kind of an issue," she explained: If a young driver is out driving around in the middle of the night and the police pulls him over, they're going to pull out the department-issued work permit. And what their main concern is going to be is that they're not out driving around and joyriding in the middle of the night, and ... since they issued the permit, they'll be able ... to make that call. Number 0773 CHAIR HOLM surmised that Representative Ogg wants to make sure it's on the record that the intention is that those who aren't "formally employed" still fall underneath the protection. REPRESENTATIVE OGG concurred, but said the less discretion given to [the Department of] Public Safety, the fewer problems will arise, especially in this age group. He said clarity is best, and added that he'd make that amendment if it didn't cause "great heartburn." MS. SYLVESTER suggested that there be a conceptual amendment that the legislative drafters would address. REPRESENTATIVE OGG remarked that he didn't want to hold the bill further, since it had been through numerous hearings. Number 0800 REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH offered that he interprets "employment" to mean "working" and thus no change is needed. REPRESENTATIVE OGG responded that there certainly is a difference between an employee and a commercial fisherman, though. REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH suggested the person would be "employed." [The possible amendment wasn't addressed further.] Number 0877 REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING questioned the need for the government's involvement and this law. He suggested perhaps this should involve private entities or require more parental involvement instead; suggested the need to look at what has been successful in other communities; and noted that an e-mail included in the committee packet from a constituent in the Matanuska-Susitna area discusses a successful community-run program there that costs parents $80 for driver's training for a child. MS. SYLVESTER replied that this empowers parents to have more control over their kids' moving into a full, unrestricted license. Statistically, states that have adopted a GDL [graduated driver's license] program have seen a dramatic decrease in deaths, she reported; this ranges between 40 percent and a low of 11 percent, with an average of 21 percent for the drop in the death rate, to her belief. In addition, driving is a privilege, not a right, and the state already regulates this process by issuing a permit and requiring the young person to hold the permit for six months; furthermore, people are regulated in how they drive, and the state requires people to drive using a seatbelt, for example. She continued: It's a balance, I would imagine, between ... public safety and individual rights. And since this is a privilege and the state has an obligation to protect other people on the road, the state has an obligation to protect me, as well. ... And statistics show, again - and the experience of other states - that ... by adding these very simple, very permissive steps, then public safety is enhanced. MS. SYLVESTER offered that this is a small imposition on the young driver, but will have a huge impact. For six months, it requires not driving in the middle of the night or driving with friends, which statistically are the deadly behaviors. Number 1090 MS. SYLVESTER said she believed the comment in the e-mail from Representative Kohring's constituent was very good, recommending driver's education. However, she told members that, surprisingly, driver's education hasn't been shown to produce these results; rather, it teaches people the rules of the road and the laws, and provides a "holding period" that extends the process of going to a fully unrestricted driver's license. She went on to say: That's the spirit of the GDL. And, again, $80 ... would be prohibitive for many people. School districts ... aren't going to be able to pay that, and ... it would be much more intrusive of the state ... to require families to pay that. The GDL is a very simple - simple - beautifully successful program that is very minimal ... on the infringement of the rights ... of a young person. REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING reiterated that nongovernmental solutions should be explored and that perhaps the same goals could be achieved through less government and more activities at the local level. He said he'd like to see greater research on effective community programs in other states. Number 1174 CHAIR HOLM returned to Ms. Sylvester's point that policies are in place that allow people to have privileges if they don't abuse them. He acknowledged that he doesn't want [new drivers] to put him or his children in harm's way. REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH offered his understanding that a driver's education course could be used for the mandatory 40 hours. [Ms. Sylvester nodded affirmatively.] Number 1222 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK remarked that the intent is good, but Alaska is different from the Lower 48 as far as diversity and the road system. She explained that her only concern is about potential impacts on low-income or single-parent families in rural areas outside of Wasilla, for example, who don't have money for a driver's education course or the ability to put their kids through 40 hours of driving in a six-month period. Number 1293 REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH moved [to report CSHB 213, Version 23- LS0786\X, Luckhaupt, 1/29/04, out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes]. CHAIR HOLM clarified the version and announced that without objection, CSHB 213(TRA) was reported from the House Transportation Standing Committee. HB 388-YOUNG CAN'T RENEW DRIVERS LICENSE BY MAIL Number 1322 CHAIR HOLM announced that the final order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 388, "An Act relating to renewal of a driver's license by applicants 25 years of age or younger; and providing for an effective date." Number 1355 REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MEYER, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor, explained how HB 388 fills a loophole in current statute. Noting that it requires any person under the age of 25 to renew his/her driver's license at the Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV) office, he added that although there is a big push within the state to encourage people to use the mail, the rationale of this bill will come with further testimony. REPRESENTATIVE MEYER explained that his office was approached by Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), Brown Jug Liquor, and DMV to sponsor this legislation; those entities felt HB 388 was necessary because of the high rate of fraudulent use of driver's licenses. He explained that many young people are renewing their driver's licenses via mail, giving it to a younger sibling or friend, and then taking a birth certificate to the DMV and getting a new driver's license for themselves. He cited a large number of fake driver's licenses that are confiscated at Chilkoot Charlie's, among other establishments, as a reason for this legislation. Number 1478 REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said DMV, Brown Jug Liquor, MADD, and others are interested in reducing the number of fraudulent driver's license cases, especially in the 18- to 25-year-old age group. He said he felt adults should be concerned and try to prohibit underage kids from obtaining tobacco and/or alcohol. REPRESENTATIVE MEYER explained that passage of HB 388 would assist DMV in its transition to take digital pictures for the licenses. The bill would require all people under age 25 to turn in their old driver's licenses when they go into DMV to renew their licenses, thus eliminating the use of the old licenses for fraudulent purposes. He pointed out that driver's licenses are more than just something that allows someone to drive; they are widely used as a credible source of positive identification (ID). REPRESENTATIVE MEYER emphasized that HB 388 is an attempt to help the State of Alaska, as well as private businesses, keep underage kids from obtaining tobacco or alcohol. Although it won't prevent all kids from obtaining fake ID, tobacco, or alcohol, it will help close a loophole in the statutes and make it harder for underage kids to obtain fake ID. Number 1615 CINDY CASHEN, Executive Director, Juneau Chapter, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, began by saying she was representing the four [Alaska] chapters of MADD: the Anchorage, Fairbanks, Juneau, Mat-Su chapters. She said MADD hopes HB 388 will pass because of the belief that it will make a difference in underage drinking. Remarking that it was nice that the liquor industry was on the "same team" to help prevent minors from consuming alcohol, she noted that HB 388 came about after she, Mr. Madden from Brown Jug Liquor, and Ms. Hennings from DMV met to address problems with underage drinking and possible solutions. Number 1666 REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH quoted from the January 21, 2004, e- mailed document from Mr. Madden: "What we are finding is that in many cases, these IDs that have been renewed through the mail are handed down to younger siblings, who then use the ID to attempt to purchase alcohol." Asking if there was any backup information to support that statement, he said he'd feel more comfortable supporting HB 388 if the points were more than just hearsay. MS. CASHEN replied that the committee would be hearing from Mr. Madden and from Chilkoot Charlie's; they would have that information. [Ms. Cashen was informed that those people weren't on teleconference.] MS. CASHEN said she wasn't a clerk at a liquor establishment, but has conversed with clerks at these places who have told her that fake IDs were a problem. Number 1728 REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH clarified that he wanted his constituents to know that the decisions made were based on something concrete. MS. CASHEN agreed with Representative Kookesh and said those facts would be presented to the committee. Number 1755 REPRESENTATIVE OGG asked why HB 388 affects people up to age 25, when the legal drinking age is 21. MS. CASHEN deferred to Ms. Hennings from DMV. REPRESENTATIVE OGG said he'd like an answer to that question before moving forward with HB 388. He asked for further clarification on the change in policy that would be enacted by HB 388 and how there would be fewer instances of minors obtaining fake IDs. Number 1819 REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said DMV will answer the questions, and explained to Representative Kookesh that his office has received letters from Brown Jug Liquor stating that it has collected many fake IDs. He explained to Representative Ogg that if someone obtains numerous duplicate licenses from the DMV, that person is "flagged" and the DMV investigates the circumstances and informs the individual that he or she is participating in fraudulent activities. REPRESENTATIVE OGG asked what the difference is between someone putting a sticker on his or her license and giving it to a minor versus obtaining a license and giving it to a minor and going back to DMV and getting a duplicate license. He asked how HB 388 would change the number of people who would commit this fraudulent activity. CHAIR HOLM suggested hearing testimony from DMV to help clarify some of the issues. Number 1930 DUANE BANNOCK, Director, Division of Motor Vehicles, Department of Administration, used an example that under the current system, someone under age 25 could renew his or her license today by just obtaining a sticker via the mail. He said DMV wants to take those licenses out of circulation; eliminating the option of renewal by mail would make it more difficult for a younger person to use a fake ID, because the older ID would be expired. CHAIR HOLM commented that once a license is expired, it is no longer legal, and if someone was relying on an expired piece of identification to obtain liquor, the establishments are not supposed to sell to someone without valid ID, so he or she shouldn't be able to use the license. Number 2028 MR. BANNOCK said Representative Holm was correct in his assessment, but under the current system, a 24-year-old will renew the license via mail, put the sticker on the back, and hand off the renewed license to the minor, essentially providing the minor with a fake ID that is valid for five years. He said the older person can go get a duplicate license and have his or her own valid personal ID. MR. BANNOCK clarified that HB 388 eliminates the renewal stickers for people under age 25, so their licenses will expire and not be a legal form of ID that could be used by a minor. CHAIR HOLM asked if the older person could simply renew a license, hand it off to a minor, and then go to DMV and obtain a duplicate license. MR. BANNOCK answered that it could happen, but HB 388 doesn't allow the older person to give the individual an ID that has a sticker on the back that makes it valid for five more years. Number 2094 REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH asked what would prevent someone who was 26 years old from doing the same thing that was not allowed to someone that was under 25 years old. Referring back to the question he'd asked Ms. Cashen, he asked if there was a specific case where the events that have been described have happened; if so, he said he'd like to see it. Number 2130 KERRY HENNINGS, Driver Licensing Manager, Division of Motor Vehicles, Department of Administration, responded that DMV receives many pouches of confiscated driver's licenses from law enforcement, liquor stores, and bars that have come from minors who were attempting to fraudulently use them to obtain alcohol. She cited cases where younger siblings will use an older sibling's ID when dealing with the police, pointing out that she is working on a case right now where a younger brother got a DUI [driving under the influence] ticket and used his older brother's ID, claiming he was his older brother. She said instances like these happen all the time and are very unfortunate. MS. HENNINGS said what makes HB 388 different is that because of the new digital photography system, the clerk will be able to look at the old photograph of the person who was renewing the license that the DMV has on file, and can make a positive identification before renewing the license. Under the current system, by contrast, clerks rely on paper documents to establish identification. She predicted that using the digital photograph system would drastically reduce the amount of driver's license fraud. Number 2197 CHAIR HOLM asked if Ms. Hennings was saying DMV is giving out a lot of fraudulent driver's licenses. MS. HENNINGS responded that she wasn't saying that, but people have misused the system. She added that DMV works to the best of its ability to issue the proper licenses to the proper people, but the digital image system will cut back on fraud. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH asked if the digital image system is currently in place. MS. HENNINGS said it isn't up and running now, but would be within the next few months. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH asked if that system relies on passage of HB 388 to be set up. MS. HENNINGS said no. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH asked why HB 388 needed to be passed. Number 2230 MS. HENNINGS shared that DMV wanted a clean database of photographs and wanted to get the old pouch of licenses out of circulation. Without renewal by mail, those pouches of licenses would expire; the person would need to come into DMV and could get a digital photo on file. She added that between the ages of 16 and 25, people's physical attributes change drastically. Number 2248 REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked if something on the driver's license would give away fraud, or if DMV needed to establish fraud by checking numbers or waiting until people get caught trying to fraudulently use an ID. MS. HENNINGS said they usually get the fraudulent IDs from liquor stores or bars where minors are trying to use them to obtain alcohol. REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH clarified that he wanted to know if anything on the license itself makes it apparent that it is being used fraudulently. He gave an example of a younger kid using an ID who looks way too young and gets caught because of that. MS. HENNINGS said it is the establishments that have caught the fraudulent use. She opined that it is hard to determine people's ages when they are that age; the photos are old, and the people look so young in them, making it easier for a young person to pass as being older. REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked if the confiscated IDs that DMV receives from the various bars and liquor stores have been valid IDs, just being used fraudulently. MS. HENNINGS answered affirmatively. Number 2339 REPRESENTATIVE OGG posed the following scenario: a 24-year-old man renews his license through the mail and puts the sticker on the back, making it valid. He then goes to DMV - claiming he lost his license, when really he gave it to his younger brother - and obtains a duplicate. The second scenario he posed took into account the effects of HB 388: a 24-year-old man goes to DMV and receives a new license; he then goes to DMV a couple of weeks later and says he lost that license - when really he gave it to his younger brother - and obtains a duplicate license. Representative Ogg asked how HB 388 would prevent that from happening, suggesting the loophole still exists. MS. HENNINGS replied that the only thing HB 388 would do to prevent that would be that the more current photo would make it easier for the clerk at DMV to identify someone who was attempting to fraudulently obtain an ID. REPRESENTATIVE OGG offered his understanding that the premise of HB 388 isn't necessarily to stop the fraud, but to make sure there are current photos. He said there is a need for that because people change so drastically between ages 16 and 25. TAPE 04-3, SIDE B Number 2387 MS. HENNINGS responded that the current photo is one benefit of HB 388. More important, however, it gets the old licenses off the street and helps ensure that the younger photos aren't used. Number 2356 MR. BANNOCK pointed out that under the current system, someone could get a license at the age of 17 and it would be valid, if renewed by mail, until age 27. He said HB 388 ensures that an ID would only have a circulation period of five years. He noted the benefit of the digital photo files, but said DMV would support this bill if the digital imaging was not in progress. Number 2321 CHAIR HOLM remarked that he is curious whether there is a relationship between digitizing the IDs and a homeland security database. MR. BANNOCK responded that there was no effort to create a national database, citing that digital images are just harder to counterfeit, and Alaska is one of the only states that still use Polaroid photos for IDs. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH offered his belief that the average age for someone in the military in [Iraq] is 21 to 24 years; this bill will impact those people because they are out of the country. He said he has a problem penalizing people just because they are under the age of 25. MS. HENNINGS noted that a statute grants a military extension to anyone who is out of the country on duty; that extension allows 90 days to renew that person's license upon return to Alaska. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH said he was just using that as one example of something he felt was unfair, saying that he didn't like treating people under the age of 25 differently from everyone else. Number 2214 REPRESENTATIVE OGG said he had some of the same concerns as Representative Kookesh and wanted to know if there was a way to make this law affect only those people who are 21 years old and younger. MS. HENNINGS replied that it was set up that way because not everyone who comes to DMV to get a license for the first time is 16 years old; a person could be 21, and those licenses are good for five years from the time they were obtained. She used that and the fact that DMV wants to remove the older-type license out of circulation as the reasons for extending the age to 25. MS. HENNINGS explained that under current statute, a person over the age of 69 cannot renew a license through the mail because of the public safety issue; instead, that person must come in so that it can be determined whether the person is medically in shape, has full faculties, and has had a vision exam. She went on to say DMV views passage of HB 388 as a public safety issue, helping to limit young people's consumption of alcohol. Number 2129 REPRESENTATIVE OGG suggested that if DMV were really trying to make this a public safety issue, making it harder for minors to obtain a fake ID, it would make sense that people would be required to get a new driver's license at the age of 21, regardless of when the first one was obtained. MR. BANNOCK replied that it wasn't that he disagreed with those comments. He said DMV is taking into consideration the needs of the young people who are getting licenses. He added that the data DMV has indicates that the majority of people who get their driver's licenses before the age of 21 will come into DMV when they turn 21, specifically to obtain a new license; the license received before someone turns 21 says "under 21" in three different places. Number 2052 CHAIR HOLM remarked that he was having some struggle moving HB 388 because there hasn't been any data to support the claims that have been made. He said he hasn't seen that this bill will cure a problem and that it is a significant enough problem to attempt to solve it. MR. BANNOCK said he'll get the data to the committee. He also clarified that HB 388 won't cure the problem [of underage drinking], but is a giant step in the right direction to eliminate a possible way for a minor to access alcohol. He said he was confident that passage of HB 388 would make it harder for a minor to fraudulently use an ID. Number 1968 CHAIR HOLM thanked Mr. Bannock and announced that public testimony would be held open. [HB 388 was held over.] ADJOURNMENT Number 1955 There being no further business before the committee, the House Transportation Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:31 p.m.

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