Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/13/1993 05:00 PM TRA
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE April 13, 1993 5:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Richard Foster, Chair Representative Gary Davis, Vice-Chair Representative Eldon Mulder Representative Al Vezey Representative Bill Hudson Representative Jerry Mackie Representative Curt Menard MEMBERS ABSENT None COMMITTEE CALENDAR CONFIRMATION HEARING - nomination of Bruce A. Campbell, for appointment as Commissioner, Department of Transportation and Public Facilities. HB 243: An Act requiring a licensed pilot for a tug boat used with an oil barge on a river in a pilotage region." MOVED FROM COMMITTEE WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS *HB 46: "An Act relating to frequent traveler credit for state-paid travel." CANCELLED - TO BE RESCHEDULED *HB 184: "An Act making a special appropriation to the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities to determine the cost of acquiring real property within the right-of-way of the proposed extension of the Alaska Railroad from Eilson Air Force Base to the Alaska-Canada border; and providing for an effective date." CANCELLED - TO BE RESCHEDULED (* First public hearing.) WITNESS REGISTER BRUCE A. CAMPBELL, Acting Commissioner Alaska Department of Transportation and Public Facilities 3132 Channel Drive Juneau, Alaska 99801 465-3000 Position Statement: Provided testimony and answered questions regarding his appointment to Commissioner. REPRESENTATIVE JERRY SANDERS Alaska State Legislature Alaska State Capitol Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 465-4945 Position Statement: Sponsor of HB 243 FORMER REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN Akiachak, Alaska 99551 Position Statement: Testified on HB 243 JOHNNY T. HAWK, President/Chief Executive Officer CALISTA Corporation 601 W. 5th Avenue, Suite 200 Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Position Dtatement: Testified in favor of HB 243 CAPTAIN CHARLES PHILLIPS P.O. Box 74 Tuluksak, Alaska 99679 Position Statement: Testified on HB 243 CAPTAIN RON SUMSTAD General Delivery Bethel, Alaska 99559 224-3349 Position Statement: Supported HB 243 CARL LUCK Division of Occupational Licensing Department of Commerce and Economic Development 9th Floor State Office Building Juneau, Alaska 99811 465-2534 Position Statement: Answered questions on HB 243 PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 243 SHORT TITLE: PILOTS ON CERTAIN TUGS ON STATE WATERS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) SANDERS TITLE: "An Act requiring a licensed pilot for a tug boat used with an oil barge on a river in a pilotage region." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 03/19/93 709 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 03/19/93 709 (H) TRANSPORTATION 03/30/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17 03/30/93 (H) MINUTE(TRA) 03/31/93 903 (H) JUD REFERRAL ADDED 04/13/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17 BILL: HB 46 SHORT TITLE: STATE-PAID TRAVEL MILEAGE CREDITS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MARTIN TITLE: "An Act relating to frequent traveler credit for state-paid travel." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/12/93 43 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/12/93 43 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, TRANSPORTATION, FINANCE 03/20/93 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102 03/20/93 (H) MINUTE(STA) 03/30/93 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102 03/30/93 (H) MINUTE(STA) 04/03/93 (H) MINUTE(STA) 04/05/93 972 (H) STA RPT CS(STA) 2DP 1DNP 3NR 04/05/93 972 (H) DP: VEZEY, OLBERG 04/05/93 972 (H) DNP: ULMER 04/05/93 972 (H) NR: B.DAVIS, G.DAVIS, KOTT 04/05/93 972 (H) -FISCAL NOTE (ADM) 4/5/93 04/05/93 972 (H) REFERRED TO TRANSPORTATION 04/06/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17 04/13/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17 BILL: HB 184 SHORT TITLE: APPRO: AK RAILROAD EXTENSION STUDY BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Therriault,Olberg TITLE: "An Act making a special appropriation to the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities to determine the cost of acquiring real property within the right-of-way of the proposed extension of the Alaska Railroad from Eielson Air Force Base to the Alaska-Canada border; and providing for an effective date." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 02/25/93 456 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 02/25/93 456 (H) TRANSPORTATION, FINANCE 04/06/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17 04/13/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-15, SIDE A Number 015 CHAIR FOSTER called the meeting to order at 5:20 p.m. He apologized for the late start due to a Labor and Commerce Meeting that went longer than anticipated. Number 020 CHAIR FOSTER invited BRUCE CAMPBELL, ACTING COMMISSIONER OF THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION AND PUBLIC FACILITIES (DOT/PF), to address the committee and asked that Mr. Campbell provide a briefing on his background. Number 025 MR. CAMPBELL replied that he arrived in Alaska in 1952 and went to work for the Alaska Road Commission under the Department of Territories in the Department of the Interior. Mr. Campbell stated he worked with them until the Bureau of Public Roads took over and he stayed with them until statehood. He said he worked for Public Works as Chief Design Engineer between 1960 and 1962 and went to work for the State Department of Highways as a Preconstruction Engineer in direct charge of all Department activities in preconstruction phase of highway projects. MR. CAMPBELL stated he was appointed Assistant Commissioner until 1967, when a new administration took over and asked him to leave. He then worked for Burgess Construction on the North Slope and all over Alaska. He said when Governor Egan was re-elected in 1971, he served as Commissioner of Highways. In 1975 he worked for the Alaska General Construction Company as a Construction Manager. Beginning in 1977 until the present time, Mr. Campbell formed his own consulting firm and has specialized in handling troubled construction projects for owners, construction companies, bonding companies, insurance companies, etc. Mr. Campbell said he has been semi-retired for the last two years until he received a call about 3- weeks ago. Number 036 CHAIR FOSTER welcomed Mr. Campbell back to government. CHAIR FOSTER asked the House Transportation Committee members for their questions and comments regarding the appointment before them. Number 041 REPRESENTATIVE MENARD asked Mr. Campbell what he hoped to accomplish. Number 044 MR. CAMPBELL replied that in order of priority, the first thing he hoped to do was inventory the people within DOT/PF and determine how he can utilize their resources best. In that process there may be some minor reorganization; however, he didn't anticipate any real shake up. Mr. Campbell stated he intended to get the moral of the Department back up again so people have a sense of purpose; he intends to give employees leadership and direction; and will be a "hands on" Commissioner. He feels he is technically and administratively well qualified and intends to give them the direction they need to get going, and he intends to do what the Constitution says, which is to plan, design, construct, maintain and operate transportation facilities within the state. Number 058 REPRESENTATIVE MENARD asked Mr. Campbell if he had looked at the Intermodel Surface Transportation Efficiency Act (ISTEA) and asked what was presented for 1994. Number 063 MR. CAMPBELL replied he has not looked; however, he felt that the budgets were to a point when he came on last week that he could not make any meaningful change in them. Mr. Campbell stated he would live with what he had and his changes would come up the next go around. He further stated he had asked the Finance Committees to give him as much latitude and room to move in their budgeting, and he would appreciate whatever they were able to give him. Number 072 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked Mr. Campbell what his feelings were in regards to the Alaska Marine Highway System. He also commented before Mr. Campbell replied that he wanted to point out that he felt the ferry system was currently being managed very efficiently and effectively in the eyes of the public, as well as the Legislature. Representative Mackie stated further that if you look at the general fund obligations that have gone down, as well as the increase in revenues that have increased, the relationship between those two was outstanding. REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE also asked Mr. Campbell's feelings in relation to the ferry system, the new ferry coming on-line, and what was his overall support for the Marine Highway, which is absolutely essential throughout Southeast and the coastal communities as a transportation link. Number 092 MR. CAMPBELL indicated he had a first-hand report from his wife who travelled to Juneau from Haines this morning. He indicated that everything was in great shape. He also indicated he supported the ferry system. He mentioned that he was on board in 1961 and 1962 when the ferry system was conceived, and he remembers when the three ferries first came up the channel, the Malaspina first, Taku second, and the Matanuska third. He indicated he has always been a strong supporter of the ferry system. MR. CAMPBELL said he supports the construction of a new ferry, the necessity for a new ferry; and the only problem at this time was the money involved and the spacing of the money. In order to construct that ferry, Mr. Campbell stated, they would have to take a $55 million hit in the federal highway money, $25 million in each of two years. He said he was going to meet with the federal officials to see if they could not spread that impact out so it doesn't impact two years, but in three or four years. If that would be possible, Mr. Campbell indicated he would be a lot happier about the new ferry. He would also like to see if some of the costs could be eliminated also. However, he said he has not had enough time to see if it would be possible. Number 111 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked Mr. Campbell if he meant by spreading out the cost over three or four years instead of $25 million a year over two years, would that mean they would have to wait three or four years for the ferry. Number 114 MR. CAMPBELL replied not necessarily. What he was looking at currently was the cash flow. It would be funded in two years, but if he could make some kind of contractual arrangement with the shipyard or something for a further spread-out, it would help the overall transportation aspect because those two hits in those two years would be severe hits to the highway program overall. He felt it could be worked out and said it was going to go. Number 125 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked Mr. Campbell about his previous statement mentioning cost cutting. MR. CAMPBELL indicated he felt that he did not know, but the number $75 million to $85 million was a lot of money to him and he was always looking for a cut. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON complimented Mr. Campbell for his previous work and for coming back and taking on a difficult situation. Representative Hudson stated he was going to echo some of the comments made by Representative Mackie because some of them felt that the outgoing leadership within DOT/PF had a negative vent against the ferry system, a bias to some extent towards roads and rail, and said maybe that was an improper charge. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said that through working with the former Commissioner and others at DOT/PF, they were able to set up the first strong positive move towards beginning to modify and replace the fleet. The first thing obviously was that the new vessel was to replace the Malaspina or take over that run, as well as provide an on scene vessel in the event of another oil spill. Representative Hudson stated that whether we agree or disagree on the source of funds, he felt good that they had gotten to the point in replacing one of the major vessels. He said it may be that Mr. Campbell could find some cost savings, and Representative Hudson would certainly be willing to look at those with him. He said he hoped that he could cut without doing what had obviously been done on the Columbia. When the Columbia was brought on board, they decided they wanted to reduce the costs to such an extent that they cut down the scantlings on the ship. Consequently, the Columbia never was permitted to go across the open ocean due to lack of proper specifications. Number 170 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said he hoped that he could count on Mr. Campbell to listen to the needs of Southeast, Southwest, and look at a statewide approach in relation to roads and ferries and could start out with this first big ship here. Number 178 MR. CAMPBELL replied that it was certainly his intent. He commented that Columbia's first estimate was $8 million, and when they got to $22 million, that was when they cut out the ocean crossing capabilities. Currently, all estimates on ships now were $75 million to $85 million, and if you look at every other ferry the state has built, they've doubled. Number 183 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON replied that he took over the Columbia as Mr. Campbell was leaving and inherited the Columbia, and it took all of the four years he worked as the director to the Marine Highway System to work out the bugs on the Columbia. Representative Hudson mentioned various problems that occurred with the Columbia and said he appreciated that Mr. Campbell was going to stay committed to the ferry system and also look at access by road as well. Number 238 MR. CAMPBELL replied that he was sure Representative Hudson realized that things had changed considerably since 1974. Design and construction is currently the easy part, and the environmental impact statements and permitting that are the time constraints are things that cannot be controlled. Mr. Campbell stated he had already started a procedure whereby they get as many things going as early as possible in the permitting process and hopefully some time will be able to be cut here and there. He said he was definitely in accord with Representative Hudson's desires, and those were his basic goals. Number 214 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said that in relation to the ISTEA program, there had been a lot of local effort put into that program. Part of the ISTEA program was the taking of a percentage of the money and distributing it to the boroughs within the state. He said those boroughs have put together a program during the last year which has been ahead of its time in relation to other states. He asked Mr. Campbell if he was familiar with that program and was he going to utilize the effort that has been put forward from the borough level. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS indicated he was originally involved as a mayor and had to drop out coming to the state level. He said he was familiar with the amount of work, planning, enthusiasm, and excitement created by the local areas. Representative Davis asked if he was familiar with that and if he was enthused about carrying on what has been planned and expected of the program to date. Number 238 MR. CAMPBELL responded that he was familiar with that plan, and said that in relation to the enthusiasm mentioned by Representative Davis, there was also some very serious distraction associated with that plan. He indicated that several boroughs were currently very much opposed to that plan. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS replied that he knew of one. MR. CAMPBELL said there was more than one. He said that as a practical matter, he put that program on hold as of yesterday for a one-year delay. The mechanism was not available in most of the boroughs and most importantly, within the DOT/PF, to effect that program. He said if that program was in effect this year and he appeared before this table next year, the committee members would not be pleased. He stated the mechanisms needed to be put in place to implement since it's just not as simple as passing money out to boroughs. He said there is a wonderful plan put together; however, little was done to develop the mechanisms to meet federal requirements to receive federal pass-through money. According to Mr. Campbell, if the boroughs do not meet the requirements, or it is not administered correctly, of course, the federal government does not participate, and he will be back before the committee looking for a large supplemental. Number 255 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked what the time frame was, and asked when the dollars would currently be available for distribution if a plan was in place. MR. CAMPBELL replied fiscal year 94. He said this doesn't mean that the boroughs are not going to get projects. A lot of the projects will simply get pulled into DOT/PF as a DOT/PF entity. It is not like it will be a major change, he said, it is more of an accounting or performance change than anything else. He said there were currently boroughs who are ready and willing to do this right now, and others who aren't. Primarily, each borough needs to be looked at individually and the plan tailored to fit that borough's needs. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said that he thought that the state handling the entire amount would assume increased DOT/PF size and that was one aspect that was a positive aspect to a lot of people. Especially if an extra $150 million per year was coming into the state for road projects, and if it was going to be administered and operated by DOT/PF, an increase in the size of DOT/PF would be anticipated. He stated it was impressive and somewhat exciting to see that some of that would be contracted out to local road service areas and thus not expand the size of DOT/PF. Number 290 MR. CAMPBELL replied that if they started passing money into the boroughs, they would have to have employees who were overseeing this. If there are 10 borough projects that are $50 thousand each, there would be somebody required to look over those projects. People will need to be on board to make sure we meet with federal requirements in the accountants and engineers to comply. He said there may not be expansion, however, there will not be a decrease. A great number of projects for smaller amounts are proposed, and even those projects require the same accountability. The boroughs have all been notified and a lot of relief has been relayed back in this regard. Number 308 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked Mr. Campbell's view on privatization, and if he was appreciative on possible efforts to privatize. He said they would always be looking at ways to do a better job. In some instances, they will swap back and forth when it is in everybody's best interest. Number 330 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE commented on the past administration in relation to lack of maintenance on Class III roads. He said these may be Class III roads in relation to an urban standard, however, they may be the only road in a rural standard area. Representative Mackie voiced his concerns regarding past maintenance practices in relation to roads where school buses travelled. He asked Mr. Campbell what his feelings would be in turning those over to the municipality completely to maintain. He also asked what Mr. Campbell's feelings were toward privatization within the ferry system. Number 312 MR. CAMPBELL replied that the driving force behind privatization would be economics and public service. If it is economical to privatize and get better public service, he said he is in favor of it. If it would be to privatize and not get any better public service for the same money, he would pursue that. Mr. Campbell indicated he would not be interested in putting things out to private enterprize just for the sake of private enterprize; there has to be an economic or service reason to do it. Number 356 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked to go back to the ISTEA issue with Mr. Campbell and said that he would like to see pilot projects. If there were boroughs who were ready to receive money under this program, he felt it would be a neat experiment to go ahead and give them their share and see how they handle it. Those boroughs would be able to help other boroughs in the future. He asked Mr. Campbell if he felt that could be a possibility. Number 366 MR. CAMPBELL replied that he did not want to see how something works, he was going to direct how something works. He felt that if he did not have the mechanism to make it work successfully so everybody understands the ground rules, he was not going to go out and experiment. The State of Washington currently got audited by the federal government in this type of thing and they lost about $18 million dollars (this amount was just for this year). Their plan has been in place for 20 years and they haven't gotten it correct. MR. CAMPBELL said he is not going to go out and do a pilot project, he is going to see the things that have to happen, and get the mechanisms in place to control that or he is not going to go. He said he was not going to go put money out on the street as an experiment, and he felt too much of that had been done and he was going to stick with what works. Number 379 REPRESENTATIVE MENARD asked about the $30 million in projects that were being pulled back in. MR. CAMPBELL said those projects that were currently being planned were going to go ahead, they were just not going to pass through. He said the department was going to be coming out tomorrow with a plan to combine the borough transportation plans and the regional operations into one appropriation. Mr. Campbell felt it would be smooth and simple and stressed the importance of waiting. Number 390 CHAIR FOSTER commented that he grew up in the Bush area and watched the old Alaska Road Commission evolve into the Borough of Public Roads and then the Highways and then into DOT. He said he recognized that Mr. Campbell had been one of the few people to be around during all that time, and he knows the evolution. CHAIR FOSTER commented that he came from an air taxi background and had always respected the air taxis. He said a lot of the air taxis that he grew up with have always been concerned about the landing fees, among other things, and he hoped that Mr. Campbell would come up with plans and policies and would keep him well informed so he could give him a hand on this. MR. CAMPBELL stated that as Representative Foster knew, he had a lot of problems to solve. He further stated that as he was aware of this concern and he has taken some steps and is working on that right now. Number 407 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON moved to advance the consideration of Bruce Campbell to the full body for consideration. Number 409 CHAIR FOSTER indicated upon hearing no objections that it was so moved. Number 415 CHAIR FOSTER appointed Representative Hudson to serve on a Alaska Marine Highway Committee and also stated that if there were no objections, he would also like to work with Representative Hudson in that capacity, and he invited anyone else who may be interested in relation to their districts to participate also. There were no objections to the appointment at that time. HB 243 PILOTS ON CERTAIN TUGS ON STATE WATERS Number 243 CHAIR FOSTER brought up CSHB 243(TRANS) for discussion before the committee, indicating that the committee had adopted this version before the last meeting adjourned. CHAIR FOSTER referred to Representative Mulder for a subcommittee report on HB 243. Number 439 REPRESENTATIVE MULDER referred to the subcommittee report dated April 13, 1993. He addressed the first concern which was outlined in the letter of intent proposed by the subcommittee for adoption, which follows:: HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE LETTER OF INTENT CSHB 243(TRA) The House Transportation Committee respectfully requests that the House Judiciary Committee address the issue as to whether the federal government has pre-emption over the State of Alaska's jurisdiction in relation to licensing of marine pilots on rivers as required by this legislation. REPRESENTATIVE MULDER referred to the memorandum attached to the subcommittee report dated April 5, 1993. As was previously indicated by several attorneys, Terri Lauterback, Legislative Counsel, was also unable to provide the committee an answer with respect to federal pre-emption due to time constraints and lack of background knowledge concerning this area of federal law. The issue of pre- emption appears to be sufficient concern to require further study, he said. REPRESENTATIVE MULDER also stated that within the past week, the U.S. Coast Guard, Anchorage office, had taken steps to develop testing standards for the Kuskokwim River. It has been agreed that within the next year the Coast Guard would develop testing standards, and federally licensed masters or others navigating the river would first have to take an examination before piloting the Kuskokwim. Representative Mulder also felt that this Coast Guard action leads us to believe that the Coast Guard is asserting its primary jurisdiction over this river pilotage and at least implicitly confirms the federal legal pre-emption of river pilotage for domestic oil barge traffic. REPRESENTATIVE MULDER stated that the issue was very cloudy and that the underlying questions, the future of oil spills in the area, and the preservation of the water quality in terms of the environment and the economy of the local area, warranted the continuation of this bill through the process. At the same time, he noted there were some very serious questions that could be addressed in the Judiciary Committee before it could be considered for House floor action. Number 473 REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER entertained a motion to adopt the proposed letter of intent for CSHB 243(TRANS). Hearing no objection, CHAIR FOSTER indicated the letter was adopted. Number 485 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY proposed an amendment: Page 1, Line 9: delete: [15,000] and insert: [25,000]. Number 473 REPRESENTATIVE MULDER moved the letter of intent. Hearing no objections, CHAIR FOSTER indicated the motion had passed. Number 514 CHAIR FOSTER asked REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS to address comments to the previous discussion at this time. Number 520 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS said that although he did not have a lot of background, in regard to one of the things discussed by Representative Mulder, it is extremely difficult to pass legislation with the anticipation of what the federal government or someone else might do. He said some of the things had come up in opposition to this and Representative Sanders indicated that the bill did not mean more money or a higher price for barged in products on the Kuskokwim. He said it is not about a monopoly for a certain group of pilots or anything like that, and it is not about more regulations, since these regulations were already in place. He indicated that these pilots had been used up until now. What it is about, REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS explained, is they had compromised. First they had the bill where the pilot took control and the industries wanted the pilot not just to do that on the ship. They raised the size of the barges up to 15,000 barrels. He was not sure he could address above that size and indicated he would let Captain Sumstad do that. He felt it sounded terribly high. Most of all, REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS said, what the bill was about was the environment out there on the Yukon Delta, which has water fowl and wildlife; some of the best in the United States. Most important, it is about the people out there and their subsistence life style and their concern about losing that if there is an oil spill. He said he had a stack of petitions signed by residents in that area. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS also indicated he also had Former Representative Ivan Ivan and Johnny Hawk at the meeting who live out there. He said the people who live out there are for this and that is what this bill is for - to protect these people. Number 553 CHAIR FOSTER welcomed FORMER REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN to the committee. Number 555 MR. IVAN replied it was good to be back and he wanted to echo some of Representative Sanders' comments in relation to support of the bill before the committee. He said that his people see this as a safety measure to protect the lower Kuskokwim River area. He said he appreciated the necessity of the oil coming up the river. Their dependence on the river system, salmon, silvers and uses of subsistence lifestyle made this bill important to them. He stated that the compromises have been made to satisfy this bill as much as possible; however, it would be extremely hard to amend any accidents that happen out there like you can bills. Number 573 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON told Mr. Ivan that it was extremely nice to have him here, and in particular, he wished he were still around and complimented him on his previous legislation, which Representative Hudson felt was outstanding. Number 583 CHAIR FOSTER requested JOHNNY HAWK, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER FOR CALISTA CORPORATION, to testify before the committee regarding HB 243. Number 585 MR. HAWK said they represent 56 villages of the 200 communities in the state in rural Alaska. He felt he could not express enough the importance of this legislation to this part of Alaska. He said that up to 90 percent of their diet consists of the salmon on the river, and this is the primary source of food for an economically distressed area, as a lot of the committee may be aware. He said it is also the primary source of income for his people on the Delta. He said that he understood the amount of income was not a lot, however, it was enough to sustain a lifestyle coupled with the subsistence lifestyle of the people now. It is a protection for a lifestyle for the people, he said. CHAIR FOSTER requested CAPTAIN CHARLES PHILLIPS, a captain on the river for 26 years, to speak to the committee. CAPTAIN PHILLIPS spoke in Yupik to the committee and Former Representative Ivan Ivan translated for him. Captain Phillips echoed the concerns and necessity addressed by the previous speakers, Johnny Hawk and Ivan Ivan, stressing the importance of the subsistence lifestyle on the people in this area. TAPE 93-14, SIDE B Number 021 MR. IVAN stressed the importance of HB 243 and stated that the river is their main food source and that they wanted to protect it. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked Captain Sumstad if he could respond to the question as to what the smallest and largest size barge deliveries of fuel currently were. CAPTAIN SUMSTAD replied that 10,000 barrels was currently the smallest and the largest went from 38,000 to 40,000 barrels. He stated his concerns regarding his fears that someone would try to transport that amount without a pilot. Number 100 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS referred to the position paper within the members' files, pointing specifically to the word "precedent" within the letter and read that portion of the position paper: "Passage of this bill will be precedent setting for the State of Alaska, and possibly the nation. The establishment of pilot requirements, as stated in this legislation, will place a requirement on the Board of Marine Pilots to set a maximum tariff, which will be applicable to all barge traffic." REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS then asked in particular the application of the word "tariff" within the paper. Number 200 CARL LUCK, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, stated that this legislation would be precedent setting for the State of Alaska and noted that at this time no other state had requirements such as these. He referred to the current requirements in relation to foreign traffic. Number 296 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE voiced his previous concerns, which related to the fact that there were currently only three licensed pilots. In the following discussion, it was indicated that there were currently only two licensed pilots at this time. REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE then questioned what would happen when they were not available for the interest of the public receiving those goods. Number 326 CARL LUCK replied that piloting regulations contain language which allow a ship's master to move these barges to haul oil when pilots are physically not available. Number 360 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE stated that he hoped the committee would bear with him and he fully appreciated the intent of this legislation by the sponsors; however, he felt he needed to address some of his concerns before the bill passed from committee. HE noted his concern that HB 243 was creating legislation for special interest purposes and felt that the bill had all the appearances of special interest legislation, which generally results in negative impact to the public. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked Captain Sumstad whether any foreign bottoms operated on the river at this time. CAPTAIN SUMSTAD replied that currently foreign bottom barges hauled fish on the river. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked Captain Sumstad whether this legislation pertained to non-hazardous materials or only to oil. Number 402 CAPTAIN SUMSTAD replied that this legislation pertained only to barges transporting oil. Number 405 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY questioned the proposed legislation, Section 1, which required the pilot to control the vessel during all docking and undocking operations. He felt the requirement was strange since a master should know his vessel's characteristics best. He also expressed his concerns of the liability assumed by the pilot if an accident should occur. Number 480 MR. LUCK replied that pilots are required to carry liability of $250 thousand. Number 481 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY replied that $250 thousand was nothing when dealing with the impact of an oil spill. He expressed the concern that the State might be assuming the liability by the license requirement if a spill was caused by a State licensed pilot and exceeded the amount of $250 thousand. Number 489 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON questioned Section 1 of the proposed legislation that required the pilot to control the vessel during all docking and undocking operations and stated he was nervous about this provision. Number 505 CAPTAIN SUMSTAD stated that a pilot does not need to dock under this legislation and he was surprised by the language in the bill which required this. Number 507 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS stated that he did not know this was included in this legislation and would be glad to eliminate that provision at this time. Number 512 CHAIR FOSTER entertained a motion to remove Section 1 from the proposed legislation. Hearing no objections, the motion passed. Number 528 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE addressed his concerns that more information was needed to examine the economic impact of compulsory pilotage on the Kuskokwim with respect to fuel prices in the area. If the costs increase, he said, there will be a lot of upset people in the impacted area. Number 535 CAPTAIN SUMSTAD said the people were willing to deal with the costs of this and noted that this requirement would add 1/2 cent per barrel. Number 541 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY moved his motion to amend the amount of barrels from 15,000 to 25,000. Number 479 CAPTAIN SUMSTAD felt 25,000 was too much weight for the physical size of the barges. Number 602 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON and REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE felt they might feel more comfortable if more data was available regarding barge sizes and weight capacities. REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked why the size of the barge wasn't stipulated instead. Number 625 REPRESENTATIVE MENARD brought forward the previous motion by Representative Vezey which changed the amount of barrels of oil from 15,000 to 25,000. Number 630 The motion failed. Number 632 REPRESENTATIVE MENARD moved HB 243 as amended from the House Transportation Committee with individual recommendations. CHAIR FOSTER noted hearing no objections, so CSHB 243(TRANS) was moved from committee with individual recommendations. Number 636 CHAIR FOSTER mentioned that he would announce on the House Floor when the other two bills, HB 46 and HB 184, scheduled for today's meeting would be brought up for committee action soon. He noted that due to lack of time they would be rescheduled and he would announce it on the House floor tomorrow. He adjourned the meeting at 7:00 p.m.