Legislature(1993 - 1994)

04/13/1993 05:00 PM TRA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
             HOUSE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE                           
                         April 13, 1993                                        
                            5:00 p.m.                                          
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
  Representative Richard Foster, Chair                                         
  Representative Gary Davis, Vice-Chair                                        
  Representative Eldon Mulder                                                  
  Representative Al Vezey                                                      
  Representative Bill Hudson                                                   
  Representative Jerry Mackie                                                  
  Representative Curt Menard                                                   
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
  CONFIRMATION HEARING - nomination of Bruce A. Campbell, for                  
  appointment as Commissioner, Department of Transportation                    
  and Public Facilities.                                                       
  HB 243:   An Act requiring a licensed pilot for a tug boat                   
            used with an oil barge on a river in a pilotage                    
            MOVED FROM COMMITTEE WITH INDIVIDUAL                               
  *HB 46:   "An Act relating to frequent traveler credit for                   
            state-paid travel."                                                
            CANCELLED - TO BE RESCHEDULED                                      
  *HB 184:  "An Act making a special appropriation to the                      
            Department of Transportation and Public Facilities                 
            to determine the cost of acquiring real property                   
            within the right-of-way of the proposed extension                  
            of the Alaska Railroad from Eilson Air Force Base                  
            to the Alaska-Canada border; and providing for an                  
            effective date."                                                   
            CANCELLED - TO BE RESCHEDULED                                      
  (* First public hearing.)                                                    
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
  BRUCE A. CAMPBELL, Acting Commissioner                                       
  Alaska Department of Transportation and Public Facilities                    
  3132 Channel Drive                                                           
  Juneau, Alaska   99801                                                       
  Position Statement:  Provided testimony and answered                         
                       regarding his appointment to                            
  REPRESENTATIVE JERRY SANDERS                                                 
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  Alaska State Capitol                                                         
  Juneau, Alaska   99801-1182                                                  
  Position Statement:  Sponsor of HB 243                                       
  FORMER REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN                                              
  Akiachak, Alaska  99551                                                      
  Position Statement:  Testified on HB 243                                     
  JOHNNY T. HAWK, President/Chief Executive Officer                            
  CALISTA Corporation                                                          
  601 W. 5th Avenue, Suite 200                                                 
  Anchorage, Alaska  99501                                                     
  Position Dtatement:  Testified in favor of HB 243                            
  CAPTAIN CHARLES PHILLIPS                                                     
  P.O. Box 74                                                                  
  Tuluksak, Alaska  99679                                                      
  Position Statement:  Testified on HB 243                                     
  CAPTAIN RON SUMSTAD                                                          
  General Delivery                                                             
  Bethel, Alaska   99559                                                       
  Position Statement:  Supported HB 243                                        
  CARL LUCK                                                                    
  Division of Occupational Licensing                                           
  Department of Commerce and Economic Development                              
  9th Floor State Office Building                                              
  Juneau, Alaska   99811                                                       
  Position Statement:  Answered questions on HB 243                            
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
  BILL:  HB 243                                                                
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) SANDERS                                        
  TITLE: "An Act requiring a licensed pilot for a tug boat                     
  used with an oil barge on a river in a pilotage region."                     
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  03/19/93       709    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  03/19/93       709    (H)   TRANSPORTATION                                   
  03/30/93              (H)   TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17                       
  03/30/93              (H)   MINUTE(TRA)                                      
  03/31/93       903    (H)   JUD REFERRAL ADDED                               
  04/13/93              (H)   TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17                       
  BILL:  HB  46                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: STATE-PAID TRAVEL MILEAGE CREDITS                               
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MARTIN                                         
  TITLE: "An Act relating to frequent traveler credit for                      
  state-paid travel."                                                          
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/12/93        43    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/12/93        43    (H)   STATE AFFAIRS, TRANSPORTATION,                   
  03/20/93              (H)   STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102                      
  03/20/93              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  03/30/93              (H)   STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102                      
  03/30/93              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  04/03/93              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  04/05/93       972    (H)   STA RPT  CS(STA) 2DP 1DNP 3NR                    
  04/05/93       972    (H)   DP: VEZEY, OLBERG                                
  04/05/93       972    (H)   DNP: ULMER                                       
  04/05/93       972    (H)   NR: B.DAVIS, G.DAVIS, KOTT                       
  04/05/93       972    (H)   -FISCAL NOTE  (ADM)  4/5/93                      
  04/05/93       972    (H)   REFERRED TO TRANSPORTATION                       
  04/06/93              (H)   TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17                       
  04/13/93              (H)   TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17                       
  BILL:  HB 184                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: APPRO: AK RAILROAD EXTENSION STUDY                              
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Therriault,Olberg                        
  TITLE: "An Act making a special appropriation to the                         
  Department of Transportation and Public Facilities to                        
  determine the cost of acquiring real property within the                     
  right-of-way of the proposed extension of the Alaska                         
  Railroad from Eielson Air Force Base to the Alaska-Canada                    
  border; and providing for an effective date."                                
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  02/25/93       456    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  02/25/93       456    (H)   TRANSPORTATION, FINANCE                          
  04/06/93              (H)   TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17                       
  04/13/93              (H)   TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17                       
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
  TAPE 93-15, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 015                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER called the meeting to order at 5:20 p.m.  He                    
  apologized for the late start due to a Labor and Commerce                    
  Meeting that went longer than anticipated.                                   
  Number 020                                                                   
  (DOT/PF), to address the committee and asked that Mr.                        
  Campbell provide a briefing on his background.                               
  Number 025                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied that he arrived in Alaska in 1952 and                   
  went to work for the Alaska Road Commission under the                        
  Department of Territories in the Department of the Interior.                 
  Mr. Campbell stated he worked with them until the Bureau of                  
  Public Roads took over and he stayed with them until                         
  statehood.  He said he worked for Public Works as Chief                      
  Design Engineer between 1960 and 1962 and went to work for                   
  the State Department of Highways as a Preconstruction                        
  Engineer in direct charge of all Department activities in                    
  preconstruction phase of highway projects.                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL stated he was appointed Assistant Commissioner                  
  until 1967, when a new administration took over and asked                    
  him to leave.  He then worked for Burgess Construction on                    
  the North Slope and all over Alaska.  He said when Governor                  
  Egan was re-elected in 1971, he served as Commissioner of                    
  Highways.  In 1975 he worked for the Alaska General                          
  Construction Company as a Construction Manager.                              
  Beginning in 1977 until the present time, Mr. Campbell                       
  formed his own consulting firm and has specialized in                        
  handling troubled construction projects for owners,                          
  construction companies, bonding companies, insurance                         
  companies, etc.  Mr. Campbell said he has been semi-retired                  
  for the last two years until he received a call about 3-                     
  weeks ago.                                                                   
  Number 036                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER welcomed Mr. Campbell back to government.                       
  CHAIR FOSTER asked the House Transportation Committee                        
  members for their questions and comments regarding the                       
  appointment before them.                                                     
  Number 041                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MENARD asked Mr. Campbell what he hoped to                    
  Number 044                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied that in order of priority, the first                    
  thing he hoped to do was inventory the people within DOT/PF                  
  and determine how he can utilize their resources best.  In                   
  that process there may be some minor reorganization;                         
  however, he didn't anticipate any real shake up.  Mr.                        
  Campbell stated he intended to get the moral of the                          
  Department back up again so people have a sense of purpose;                  
  he intends to give employees leadership and direction; and                   
  will be a "hands on" Commissioner.  He feels he is                           
  technically and administratively well qualified and intends                  
  to give them the direction they need to get going, and he                    
  intends to do what the Constitution says, which is to plan,                  
  design, construct, maintain and operate transportation                       
  facilities within the state.                                                 
  Number 058                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MENARD asked Mr. Campbell if he had looked at                 
  the Intermodel Surface Transportation Efficiency Act (ISTEA)                 
  and asked what was presented for 1994.                                       
  Number 063                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied he has not looked; however, he felt                     
  that the budgets were to a point when he came on last week                   
  that he could not make any meaningful change in them.  Mr.                   
  Campbell stated he would live with what he had and his                       
  changes would come up the next go around.  He further stated                 
  he had asked the Finance Committees to give him as much                      
  latitude and room to move in their budgeting, and he would                   
  appreciate whatever they were able to give him.                              
  Number 072                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked Mr. Campbell what his feelings                   
  were in regards to the Alaska Marine Highway System.  He                     
  also commented before Mr. Campbell replied that he wanted to                 
  point out that he felt the ferry system was currently being                  
  managed very efficiently and effectively in the eyes of the                  
  public, as well as the Legislature.  Representative Mackie                   
  stated further that if you look at the general fund                          
  obligations that have gone down, as well as the increase in                  
  revenues that have increased, the relationship between those                 
  two was outstanding.                                                         
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE also asked Mr. Campbell's feelings in                  
  relation to the ferry system, the new ferry coming on-line,                  
  and what was his overall support for the Marine Highway,                     
  which is absolutely essential throughout Southeast and the                   
  coastal communities as a transportation link.                                
  Number 092                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL indicated he had a first-hand report from his                   
  wife who travelled to Juneau from Haines this morning.  He                   
  indicated that everything was in great shape.  He also                       
  indicated he supported the ferry system.  He mentioned that                  
  he was on board in 1961 and 1962 when the ferry system was                   
  conceived, and he remembers when the three ferries first                     
  came up the channel, the Malaspina first, Taku second, and                   
  the Matanuska third.  He indicated he has always been a                      
  strong supporter of the ferry system.                                        
  MR. CAMPBELL said he supports the construction of a new                      
  ferry, the necessity for a new ferry; and the only problem                   
  at this time was the money involved and the spacing of the                   
  money.  In order to construct that ferry, Mr. Campbell                       
  stated, they would have to take a $55 million hit in the                     
  federal highway money, $25 million in each of two years.  He                 
  said he was going to meet with the federal officials to see                  
  if they could not spread that impact out so it doesn't                       
  impact two years, but in three or four years.  If that would                 
  be possible, Mr. Campbell indicated he would be a lot                        
  happier about the new ferry.  He would also like to see if                   
  some of the costs could be eliminated also.  However, he                     
  said he has not had enough time to see if it would be                        
  Number 111                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked Mr. Campbell if he meant by                      
  spreading out the cost over three or four years instead of                   
  $25 million a year over two years, would that mean they                      
  would have to wait three or four years for the ferry.                        
  Number 114                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied not necessarily.  What he was looking                   
  at currently was the cash flow.  It would be funded in two                   
  years, but if he could make some kind of contractual                         
  arrangement with the shipyard or something for a further                     
  spread-out, it would help the overall transportation aspect                  
  because those two hits in those two years would be severe                    
  hits to the highway program overall.  He felt it could be                    
  worked out and said it was going to go.                                      
  Number 125                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked Mr. Campbell about his previous                  
  statement mentioning cost cutting.                                           
  MR. CAMPBELL indicated he felt that he did not know, but the                 
  number $75 million to $85 million was a lot of money to him                  
  and he was always looking for a cut.                                         
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON complimented Mr. Campbell for his                      
  previous work and for coming back and taking on a difficult                  
  situation.  Representative Hudson stated he was going to                     
  echo some of the comments made by Representative Mackie                      
  because some of them felt that the outgoing leadership                       
  within DOT/PF had a negative vent against the ferry system,                  
  a bias to some extent towards roads and rail, and said maybe                 
  that was an improper charge.                                                 
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said that through working with the                     
  former Commissioner and others at DOT/PF, they were able to                  
  set up the first strong positive move towards beginning to                   
  modify and replace the fleet.  The first thing obviously was                 
  that the new vessel was to replace the Malaspina or take                     
  over that run, as well as provide an on scene vessel in the                  
  event of another oil spill.  Representative Hudson stated                    
  that whether we agree or disagree on the source of funds, he                 
  felt good that they had gotten to the point in replacing one                 
  of the major vessels.  He said it may be that Mr. Campbell                   
  could find some cost savings, and Representative Hudson                      
  would certainly be willing to look at those with him.  He                    
  said he hoped that he could cut without doing what had                       
  obviously been done on the Columbia.  When the Columbia was                  
  brought on board, they decided they wanted to reduce the                     
  costs to such an extent that they cut down the scantlings on                 
  the ship.  Consequently, the Columbia never was permitted to                 
  go across the open ocean due to lack of proper                               
  Number 170                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said he hoped that he could count on                   
  Mr. Campbell to listen to the needs of Southeast, Southwest,                 
  and look at a statewide approach in relation to roads and                    
  ferries and could start out with this first big ship here.                   
  Number 178                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied that it was certainly his intent.  He                   
  commented that Columbia's first estimate was $8 million, and                 
  when they got to $22 million, that was when they cut out the                 
  ocean crossing capabilities.  Currently, all estimates on                    
  ships now were $75 million to $85 million, and if you look                   
  at every other ferry the state has built, they've doubled.                   
  Number 183                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON replied that he took over the Columbia                 
  as Mr. Campbell was leaving and inherited the Columbia, and                  
  it took all of the four years he worked as the director to                   
  the Marine Highway System to work out the bugs on the                        
  Columbia.  Representative Hudson mentioned various problems                  
  that occurred with the Columbia and said he appreciated that                 
  Mr. Campbell was going to stay committed to the ferry system                 
  and also look at access by road as well.                                     
  Number 238                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied that he was sure Representative Hudson                  
  realized that things had changed considerably since 1974.                    
  Design and construction is currently the easy part, and the                  
  environmental impact statements and permitting that are the                  
  time constraints are things that cannot be controlled.  Mr.                  
  Campbell stated he had already started a procedure whereby                   
  they get as many things going as early as possible in the                    
  permitting process and hopefully some time will be able to                   
  be cut here and there.  He said he was definitely in accord                  
  with Representative Hudson's desires, and those were his                     
  basic goals.                                                                 
  Number 214                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said that in relation to the ISTEA                      
  program, there had been a lot of local effort put into that                  
  program.  Part of the ISTEA program was the taking of a                      
  percentage of the money and distributing it to the boroughs                  
  within the state.  He said those boroughs have put together                  
  a program during the last year which has been ahead of its                   
  time in relation to other states.  He asked Mr. Campbell if                  
  he was familiar with that program and was he going to                        
  utilize the effort that has been put forward from the                        
  borough level.                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS indicated he was originally involved as                 
  a mayor and had to drop out coming to the state level.  He                   
  said he was familiar with the amount of work, planning,                      
  enthusiasm, and excitement created by the local areas.                       
  Representative Davis asked if he was familiar with that and                  
  if he was enthused about carrying on what has been planned                   
  and expected of the program to date.                                         
  Number 238                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL responded that he was familiar with that plan,                  
  and said that in relation to the enthusiasm mentioned by                     
  Representative Davis, there was also some very serious                       
  distraction associated with that plan.  He indicated that                    
  several boroughs were currently very much opposed to that                    
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS replied that he knew of one.                            
  MR. CAMPBELL said there was more than one.  He said that as                  
  a practical matter, he put that program on hold as of                        
  yesterday for a one-year delay.  The mechanism was not                       
  available in most of the boroughs and most importantly,                      
  within the DOT/PF, to effect that program.  He said if that                  
  program was in effect this year and he appeared before this                  
  table next year, the committee members would not be pleased.                 
  He stated the mechanisms needed to be put in place to                        
  implement since it's just not as simple as passing money out                 
  to boroughs.  He said there is a wonderful plan put                          
  together; however, little was done to develop the mechanisms                 
  to meet federal requirements to receive federal pass-through                 
  money.  According to Mr. Campbell, if the boroughs do not                    
  meet the requirements, or it is not administered correctly,                  
  of course, the federal government does not participate, and                  
  he will be back before the committee looking for a large                     
  Number 255                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked what the time frame was, and                      
  asked when the dollars would currently be available for                      
  distribution if a plan was in place.                                         
  MR. CAMPBELL replied fiscal year 94.  He said this doesn't                   
  mean that the boroughs are not going to get projects.  A lot                 
  of the projects will simply get pulled into DOT/PF as a                      
  DOT/PF entity.  It is not like it will be a major change, he                 
  said, it is more of an accounting or performance change than                 
  anything else.  He said there were currently boroughs who                    
  are ready and willing to do this right now, and others who                   
  aren't.  Primarily, each borough needs to be looked at                       
  individually and the plan tailored to fit that borough's                     
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said that he thought that the state                     
  handling the entire amount would assume increased DOT/PF                     
  size and that was one aspect that was a positive aspect to a                 
  lot of people.  Especially if an extra $150 million per year                 
  was coming into the state for road projects, and if it was                   
  going to be administered and operated by DOT/PF, an increase                 
  in the size of DOT/PF would be anticipated.  He stated it                    
  was impressive and somewhat exciting to see that some of                     
  that would be contracted out to local road service areas and                 
  thus not expand the size of DOT/PF.                                          
  Number 290                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied that if they started passing money into                 
  the boroughs, they would have to have employees who were                     
  overseeing this.  If there are 10 borough projects that are                  
  $50 thousand each, there would be somebody required to look                  
  over those projects.  People will need to be on board to                     
  make sure we meet with federal requirements in the                           
  accountants and engineers to comply.  He said there may not                  
  be expansion, however, there will not be a decrease.  A                      
  great number of projects for smaller amounts are proposed,                   
  and even those projects require the same accountability.                     
  The boroughs have all been notified and a lot of relief has                  
  been relayed back in this regard.                                            
  Number 308                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked Mr. Campbell's view on                            
  privatization, and if he was appreciative on possible                        
  efforts to privatize.  He said they would always be looking                  
  at ways to do a better job.  In some instances, they will                    
  swap back and forth when it is in everybody's best interest.                 
  Number 330                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE commented on the past administration                   
  in relation to lack of maintenance on Class III roads.  He                   
  said these may be Class III roads in relation to an urban                    
  standard, however, they may be the only road in a rural                      
  standard area.  Representative Mackie voiced his concerns                    
  regarding past maintenance practices in relation to roads                    
  where school buses travelled.  He asked Mr. Campbell what                    
  his feelings would be in turning those over to the                           
  municipality completely to maintain.  He also asked what Mr.                 
  Campbell's feelings were toward privatization within the                     
  ferry system.                                                                
  Number 312                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied that the driving force behind                           
  privatization would be economics and public service.  If it                  
  is economical to privatize and get better public service, he                 
  said he is in favor of it.  If it would be to privatize and                  
  not get any better public service for the same money, he                     
  would pursue that.  Mr. Campbell indicated he would not be                   
  interested in putting things out to private enterprize just                  
  for the sake of private enterprize; there has to be an                       
  economic or service reason to do it.                                         
  Number 356                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked to go back to the ISTEA issue                     
  with Mr. Campbell and said that he would like to see pilot                   
  projects.  If there were boroughs who were ready to receive                  
  money under this program, he felt it would be a neat                         
  experiment to go ahead and give them their share and see how                 
  they handle it.  Those boroughs would be able to help other                  
  boroughs in the future.  He asked Mr. Campbell if he felt                    
  that could be a possibility.                                                 
  Number 366                                                                   
  MR. CAMPBELL replied that he did not want to see how                         
  something works, he was going to direct how something works.                 
  He felt that if he did not have the mechanism to make it                     
  work successfully so everybody understands the ground rules,                 
  he was not going to go out and experiment.  The State of                     
  Washington currently got audited by the federal government                   
  in this type of thing and they lost about $18 million                        
  dollars (this amount was just for this year).  Their plan                    
  has been in place for 20 years and they haven't gotten it                    
  MR. CAMPBELL said he is not going to go out and do a pilot                   
  project, he is going to see the things that have to happen,                  
  and get the mechanisms in place to control that or he is not                 
  going to go.  He said he was not going to go put money out                   
  on the street as an experiment, and he felt too much of that                 
  had been done and he was going to stick with what works.                     
  Number 379                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MENARD asked about the $30 million in                         
  projects that were being pulled back in.                                     
  MR. CAMPBELL said those projects that were currently being                   
  planned were going to go ahead, they were just not going to                  
  pass through.  He said the department was going to be coming                 
  out tomorrow with a plan to combine the borough                              
  transportation plans and the regional operations into one                    
  appropriation.  Mr. Campbell felt it would be smooth and                     
  simple and stressed the importance of waiting.                               
  Number 390                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER commented that he grew up in the Bush area and                  
  watched the old Alaska Road Commission evolve into the                       
  Borough of Public Roads and then the Highways and then into                  
  DOT.  He said he recognized that Mr. Campbell had been one                   
  of the few people to be around during all that time, and he                  
  knows the evolution.                                                         
  CHAIR FOSTER commented that he came from an air taxi                         
  background and had always respected the air taxis.  He said                  
  a lot of the air taxis that he grew up with have always been                 
  concerned about the landing fees, among other things, and he                 
  hoped that Mr. Campbell would come up with plans and                         
  policies and would keep him well informed so he could give                   
  him a hand on this.                                                          
  MR. CAMPBELL stated that as Representative Foster knew, he                   
  had a lot of problems to solve.  He further stated that as                   
  he was aware of this concern and he has taken some steps and                 
  is working on that right now.                                                
  Number 407                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON moved to advance the consideration of                  
  Bruce Campbell to the full body for consideration.                           
  Number 409                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER indicated upon hearing no objections that it                    
  was so moved.                                                                
  Number 415                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER appointed Representative Hudson to serve on a                   
  Alaska Marine Highway Committee and also stated that if                      
  there were no objections, he would also like to work with                    
  Representative Hudson in that capacity, and he invited                       
  anyone else who may be interested in relation to their                       
  districts to participate also.  There were no objections to                  
  the appointment at that time.                                                
  HB 243 PILOTS ON CERTAIN TUGS ON STATE WATERS                                
  Number 243                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER brought up CSHB 243(TRANS) for discussion                       
  before the committee, indicating that the committee had                      
  adopted this version before the last meeting adjourned.                      
  CHAIR FOSTER referred to Representative Mulder for a                         
  subcommittee report on HB 243.                                               
  Number 439                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER referred to the subcommittee report                    
  dated April 13, 1993.  He addressed the first concern which                  
  was outlined in the letter of intent proposed by the                         
  subcommittee for adoption, which follows::                                   
                 HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE                                
                        LETTER OF INTENT                                       
                          CSHB 243(TRA)                                        
  The House Transportation Committee respectfully requests                     
  that the House Judiciary Committee address the issue as to                   
  whether the federal government has pre-emption over the                      
  State of Alaska's jurisdiction in relation to licensing of                   
  marine pilots on rivers as required by this legislation.                     
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER referred to the memorandum attached to                 
  the subcommittee report dated April 5, 1993.  As was                         
  previously indicated by several attorneys, Terri Lauterback,                 
  Legislative Counsel, was also unable to provide the                          
  committee an answer with respect to federal pre-emption due                  
  to time constraints and lack of background knowledge                         
  concerning this area of federal law.  The issue of pre-                      
  emption appears to be sufficient concern to require further                  
  study, he said.                                                              
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER also stated that within the past week,                 
  the U.S. Coast Guard, Anchorage office, had taken steps to                   
  develop testing standards for the Kuskokwim River.  It has                   
  been agreed that within the next year the Coast Guard would                  
  develop testing standards, and federally licensed masters or                 
  others navigating the river would first have to take an                      
  examination before piloting the Kuskokwim.  Representative                   
  Mulder also felt that this Coast Guard action leads us to                    
  believe that the Coast Guard is asserting its primary                        
  jurisdiction over this river pilotage and at least                           
  implicitly confirms the federal legal pre-emption of river                   
  pilotage for domestic oil barge traffic.                                     
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER stated that the issue was very cloudy                  
  and that the underlying questions, the future of oil spills                  
  in the area, and the preservation of the water quality in                    
  terms of the environment and the economy of the local area,                  
  warranted the continuation of this bill through the process.                 
  At the same time, he noted there were some very serious                      
  questions that could be addressed in the Judiciary Committee                 
  before it could be considered for House floor action.                        
  Number 473                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER entertained a motion to adopt the                      
  proposed letter of intent for CSHB 243(TRANS).  Hearing no                   
  objection, CHAIR FOSTER indicated the letter was adopted.                    
  Number 485                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY proposed an amendment:                                  
  Page 1, Line 9:  delete: [15,000] and insert: [25,000].                      
  Number 473                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER moved the letter of intent.  Hearing                   
  no objections, CHAIR FOSTER indicated the motion had passed.                 
  Number 514                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER asked REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS to address                         
  comments to the previous discussion at this time.                            
  Number 520                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS said that although he did not have a                  
  lot of background, in regard to one of the things discussed                  
  by Representative Mulder, it is extremely difficult to pass                  
  legislation with the anticipation of what the federal                        
  government or someone else might do.  He said some of the                    
  things had come up in opposition to this and Representative                  
  Sanders indicated that the bill did not mean more money or a                 
  higher price for barged in products on the Kuskokwim.  He                    
  said it is not about a monopoly for a certain group of                       
  pilots or anything like that, and it is not about more                       
  regulations, since these regulations were already in place.                  
  He indicated that these pilots had been used up until now.                   
  What it is about, REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS explained, is they                  
  had compromised.  First they had the bill where the pilot                    
  took control and the industries wanted the pilot not just to                 
  do that on the ship.  They raised the size of the barges up                  
  to 15,000 barrels.  He was not sure he could address above                   
  that size and indicated he would let Captain Sumstad do                      
  that.  He felt it sounded terribly high.                                     
  Most of all, REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS said, what the bill was                  
  about was the environment out there on the Yukon Delta,                      
  which has water fowl and wildlife; some of the best in the                   
  United States.  Most important, it is about the people out                   
  there and their subsistence life style and their concern                     
  about losing that if there is an oil spill.  He said he had                  
  a stack of petitions signed by residents in that area.                       
  REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS also indicated he also had Former                     
  Representative Ivan Ivan and Johnny Hawk at the meeting who                  
  live out there.   He said the people who live out there are                  
  for this and that is what this bill is for - to protect                      
  these people.                                                                
  Number 553                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER welcomed FORMER REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN to the                 
  Number 555                                                                   
  MR. IVAN replied it was good to be back and he wanted to                     
  echo some of Representative Sanders' comments in relation to                 
  support of the bill before the committee.  He said that his                  
  people see this as a safety measure to protect the lower                     
  Kuskokwim River area.  He said he appreciated the necessity                  
  of the oil coming up the river.  Their dependence on the                     
  river system, salmon, silvers and uses of subsistence                        
  lifestyle made this bill important to them.  He stated that                  
  the compromises have been made to satisfy this bill as much                  
  as possible; however, it would be extremely hard to amend                    
  any accidents that happen out there like you can bills.                      
  Number 573                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON told Mr. Ivan that it was extremely                    
  nice to have him here, and in particular, he wished he were                  
  still around and complimented him on his previous                            
  legislation, which Representative Hudson felt was                            
  Number 583                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER requested JOHNNY HAWK, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF                      
  EXECUTIVE OFFICER FOR CALISTA CORPORATION, to testify before                 
  the committee regarding HB 243.                                              
  Number 585                                                                   
  MR. HAWK said they represent 56 villages of the 200                          
  communities in the state in rural Alaska.  He felt he could                  
  not express enough the importance of this legislation to                     
  this part of Alaska.  He said that up to 90 percent of their                 
  diet consists of the salmon on the river, and this is the                    
  primary source of food for an economically distressed area,                  
  as a lot of the committee may be aware.  He said it is also                  
  the primary source of income for his people on the Delta.                    
  He said that he understood the amount of income was not a                    
  lot, however, it was enough to sustain a lifestyle coupled                   
  with the subsistence lifestyle of the people now.  It is a                   
  protection for a lifestyle for the people, he said.                          
  CHAIR FOSTER requested CAPTAIN CHARLES PHILLIPS, a captain                   
  on the river for 26 years, to speak to the committee.                        
  CAPTAIN PHILLIPS spoke in Yupik to the committee and Former                  
  Representative Ivan Ivan translated for him.  Captain                        
  Phillips echoed the concerns and necessity addressed by the                  
  previous speakers, Johnny Hawk and Ivan Ivan, stressing the                  
  importance of the subsistence lifestyle on the people in                     
  this area.                                                                   
  TAPE 93-14, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 021                                                                   
  MR. IVAN stressed the importance of HB 243 and stated that                   
  the river is their main food source and that they wanted to                  
  protect it.                                                                  
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked Captain Sumstad if he could                      
  respond to the question as to what the smallest and largest                  
  size barge deliveries of fuel currently were.                                
  CAPTAIN SUMSTAD replied that 10,000 barrels was currently                    
  the smallest and the largest went from 38,000 to 40,000                      
  barrels.  He stated his concerns regarding his fears that                    
  someone would try to transport that amount without a pilot.                  
  Number 100                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS referred to the position paper within                   
  the members' files, pointing specifically to the word                        
  "precedent" within the letter and read that portion of the                   
  position paper:  "Passage of this bill will be precedent                     
  setting for the State of Alaska, and possibly the nation.                    
  The establishment of pilot requirements, as stated in this                   
  legislation, will place a requirement on the Board of Marine                 
  Pilots to set a maximum tariff, which will be applicable to                  
  all barge traffic."                                                          
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS then asked in particular the                            
  application of the word "tariff" within the paper.                           
  Number 200                                                                   
  stated that this legislation would be precedent setting for                  
  the State of Alaska and noted that at this time no other                     
  state had requirements such as these.  He referred to the                    
  current requirements in relation to foreign traffic.                         
  Number 296                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE voiced his previous concerns, which                    
  related to the fact that there were currently only three                     
  licensed pilots.  In the following discussion, it was                        
  indicated that there were currently only two licensed pilots                 
  at this time.                                                                
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE then questioned what would happen when                 
  they were not available for the interest of the public                       
  receiving those goods.                                                       
  Number 326                                                                   
  CARL LUCK replied that piloting regulations contain language                 
  which allow a ship's master to move these barges to haul oil                 
  when pilots are physically not available.                                    
  Number 360                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE stated that he hoped the committee                     
  would bear with him and he fully appreciated the intent of                   
  this legislation by the sponsors; however, he felt he needed                 
  to address some of his concerns before the bill passed from                  
  committee.  HE noted his concern that HB 243 was creating                    
  legislation for special interest purposes and felt that the                  
  bill had all the appearances of special interest                             
  legislation, which generally results in negative impact to                   
  the public.                                                                  
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked Captain Sumstad whether any                      
  foreign bottoms operated on the river at this time.                          
  CAPTAIN SUMSTAD replied that currently foreign bottom barges                 
  hauled fish on the river.                                                    
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked Captain Sumstad whether this                     
  legislation pertained to non-hazardous materials or only to                  
  Number 402                                                                   
  CAPTAIN SUMSTAD replied that this legislation pertained only                 
  to barges transporting oil.                                                  
  Number 405                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY questioned the proposed legislation,                    
  Section 1, which required the pilot to control the vessel                    
  during all docking and undocking operations.  He felt the                    
  requirement was strange since a master should know his                       
  vessel's characteristics best.  He also expressed his                        
  concerns of the liability assumed by the pilot if an                         
  accident should occur.                                                       
  Number 480                                                                   
  MR. LUCK replied that pilots are required to carry liability                 
  of $250 thousand.                                                            
  Number 481                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY replied that $250 thousand was nothing                  
  when dealing with the impact of an oil spill.  He expressed                  
  the concern that the State might be assuming the liability                   
  by the license requirement if a spill was caused by a State                  
  licensed pilot and exceeded the amount of $250 thousand.                     
  Number 489                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON questioned Section 1 of the proposed                   
  legislation that required the pilot to control the vessel                    
  during all docking and undocking operations and stated he                    
  was nervous about this provision.                                            
  Number 505                                                                   
  CAPTAIN SUMSTAD stated that a pilot does not need to dock                    
  under this legislation and he was surprised by the language                  
  in the bill which required this.                                             
  Number 507                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS stated that he did not know this was                  
  included in this legislation and would be glad to eliminate                  
  that provision at this time.                                                 
  Number 512                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER entertained a motion to remove Section 1 from                   
  the proposed legislation.  Hearing no objections, the motion                 
  Number 528                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE addressed his concerns that more                       
  information was needed to examine the economic impact of                     
  compulsory pilotage on the Kuskokwim with respect to fuel                    
  prices in the area.  If the costs increase, he said, there                   
  will be a lot of upset people in the impacted area.                          
  Number 535                                                                   
  CAPTAIN SUMSTAD said the people were willing to deal with                    
  the costs of this and noted that this requirement would add                  
  1/2 cent per barrel.                                                         
  Number 541                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY moved his motion to amend the amount of                 
  barrels from 15,000 to 25,000.                                               
  Number 479                                                                   
  CAPTAIN SUMSTAD felt 25,000 was too much weight for the                      
  physical size of the barges.                                                 
  Number 602                                                                   
  might feel more comfortable if more data was available                       
  regarding barge sizes and weight capacities.                                 
  REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked why the size of the barge wasn't                 
  stipulated instead.                                                          
  Number 625                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MENARD brought forward the previous motion by                 
  Representative Vezey which changed the amount of barrels of                  
  oil from 15,000 to 25,000.                                                   
  Number 630                                                                   
  The motion failed.                                                           
  Number 632                                                                   
  REPRESENTATIVE MENARD moved HB 243 as amended from the House                 
  Transportation Committee with individual recommendations.                    
  CHAIR FOSTER noted hearing no objections, so CSHB 243(TRANS)                 
  was moved from committee with individual recommendations.                    
  Number 636                                                                   
  CHAIR FOSTER mentioned that he would announce on the House                   
  Floor when the other two bills, HB 46 and HB 184, scheduled                  
  for today's meeting would be brought up for committee action                 
  soon.  He noted that due to lack of time they would be                       
  rescheduled and he would announce it on the House floor                      
  tomorrow.  He adjourned the meeting at 7:00 p.m.                             

Document Name Date/Time Subjects