02/19/2008 08:00 AM House STATE AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB318 | |
| Adjourn |
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | HB 318 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
February 19, 2008
8:05 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bob Lynn, Chair
Representative Bob Roses, Vice Chair
Representative John Coghill
Representative Craig Johnson
Representative Andrea Doll
Representative Max Gruenberg
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Kyle Johansen
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 318
"An Act relating to the location of the convening of the
legislature in a special session; and providing for an effective
date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 318
SHORT TITLE: LOCATION OF SPECIAL SESSIONS
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) GATTO
01/15/08 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/15/08 (H) STA, FIN
02/19/08 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE CARL GATTO
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 318 as prime sponsor.
KARLA SCHOFIELD, Deputy Director
Administrative Services
Legislative Affairs Agency
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the hearing on HB 318, provided
information related to the estimated cost of holding special
sessions outside of Juneau.
TAMMY WILSON
North Pole, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of herself in support
of HB 318.
VIVIAN STIVER
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of herself in support
of HB 318.
WIN GRUENING
Alaska Committee
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of the Alaska Committee
during the hearing on HB 318.
RANDY WANNAMAKER, Deputy Mayor
City & Borough of Juneau (CBJ)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 318.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CHAIR BOB LYNN called the House State Affairs Standing Committee
meeting to order at 8:04:27 AM. Representatives Roses, Coghill,
Johnson, Doll, and Lynn were present at the call to order.
Representative Gruenberg arrived as the meeting was in progress.
HB 318-LOCATION OF SPECIAL SESSIONS
8:04:46 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that the only order of business was HOUSE
BILL NO. 318, "An Act relating to the location of the convening
of the legislature in a special session; and providing for an
effective date."
8:05:10 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CARL GATTO, Alaska State Legislature, presented
HB 318 as prime sponsor. He said special sessions are a fairly
common event. He relayed that on a recent trip to Juneau, the
plane - carrying many legislators, department heads, and the
governor - was unable to land in Juneau due to weather. He said
in the past legislators have given up their housing in Juneau by
the time a special session is called and have had to scramble
for places to live - some of them resorting to living in their
offices.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said the special session held in Anchorage
in 2007 lasted seven hours and was reported to have cost
$100,000. He noted that the most expensive airfare possible for
roundtrip flights from Juneau to Anchorage was used in the
calculation. He said, "It did seem to me, in the areas that I
knew, that the bill was padded."
8:09:37 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he thinks the special session should
be held [outside of Juneau]. He indicated a preference for
sessions to be held outside of Juneau - near to where two-thirds
of the population is on a road system.
8:10:52 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO, in response to a question from Chair Lynn,
said he does not know the exact number of legislators that were
on the aforementioned airplane, but he said, "If you count
legislators and administrators and whatnot, it seemed like we
should have chartered the plan."
CHAIR LYNN concluded that if that plane had gone down, the state
would have lost numerous legislators and the governor.
8:12:12 AM
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL noted that the bill does not designate where
special sessions would be held, thus, she presumes it could be
held in various locales.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO confirmed that the bill does not specify
Anchorage; it simply would allow special sessions to be held on
"the interconnected road system." In response to Representative
Doll, he admitted that the necessary equipment would have to be
moved to the special session locale, then back to the capital.
He said his emphasis is on giving the best possible access to
the public. He added, "I have a feeling that there would be a
favorite place and we would probably stay there."
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL asked what the cost of a 30-day session
would be.
8:16:36 AM
KARLA SCHOFIELD, Deputy Director, Administrative Services,
Legislative Affairs Agency, said the most recent special
session, held in Juneau, cost approximately $800,000. The usual
estimate for a 30-day special session is a $50,000 one-time cost
- to bring legislators to and from Juneau - and a $25,000 daily
cost. However, she said the cost varies depending on the
subject and whether or not leadership wants to hire contractors.
She said Representative Gatto had asked for the cost of a two-
week special session in Anchorage, which she said would cost
more money [than holding it in Juneau]. She talked about all
the people behind the scenes who are needed to put on a special
session, such as the Chief Clerk and Senate Secretary, and the
staff of Data Processing. She noted that a very minimal staff
was sent to the one-day session in Anchorage, and some of that
staff volunteered to serve as pages - a job they would not be
able to cover during a 30-day session, because they would be
busy doing work for the legislators.
MS. SCHOFIELD addressed the fiscal note in the committee packet,
[dated 2/18/08 and prepared by Ms. Schofield]. She said she
chose the Egan Convention Center in Anchorage and the Carlson
Center in Fairbanks as two places that could house a special
session. She corrected a misconception that having a special
session in Anchorage would mean only the people in Anchorage
would be working, by noting that there are people in Juneau who
work during a special session outside of Juneau, such as the
staff of House and Senate Records who record and transcribe the
minutes. She indicated an extra cost of $26,000 to send staff
to Anchorage from the Legislative Information and Data
Processing Offices.
8:19:56 AM
MS. SCHOFIELD said any time a special session is held outside of
Juneau there will be the added cost of sending technical staff
ahead of the start of the special session to set up and then
remain throughout the special session. The cost for personal
services, she said, is the same whether the special session is
held in Juneau or Anchorage. Regarding travel, she noted that
although it does cost less to send legislators to Anchorage than
to Juneau, more staff needs to be sent to Anchorage. She
indicated that the number of staff she used in her calculations
was 57. Bringing all staff would cost close to $30,000. She
said the optimal special session outside of Juneau would
replicate the ones held in Juneau. She said the per diem rate
is higher in Anchorage in the summer than it is in Juneau.
There are 28 legislators who live within a 50-mile radius of the
Egan Convention Center who would get 75 percent of the per diem
rate, which is what Juneau legislators get in Juneau; however,
there is the additional cost of the staff that would be
necessary. She explained that staff authorized to travel to a
special session are considered to be on a trip and, thus, get
per diem.
8:22:54 AM
MS. SCHOFIELD said the biggest issue is regarding the
availability of space. She noted that the Egan Convention
Center is larger than the Carl Center. She said currently the
legislature is "considering block 39" in Anchorage, which she
related is not big enough to house every legislator. She added,
"But if that goes through and we end up with a larger space for
the legislature, there are conference rooms that we could use
for the session, but that wouldn't be until 2010." There is
nothing comparable in Fairbanks. She said she assumes the
legislature would want to alternate where it met for special
sessions outside of Juneau.
MS. SCHOFIELD said 17 boxes were sent to Anchorage for the one-
day special session, but she is certain a lot more boxes would
have to be sent for a 14-day special session. She said all
legislators have lap top computers now, which they may choose to
bring. She suggested that for office space, legislators might
"camp out in their hotel rooms or in other legislators'
offices." Copiers would have to be rented, but the cost of
supplies would be about the same. She pointed out that there is
no voting machine outside of Juneau, and the purpose of the
machine is to keep track of voting records. She said "voice
votes" could be conducted, but would not work well for a long
period of time. Another issue is one of confidentiality. If
people are asking for a lot of amendments, she said, it must be
guaranteed that only the legislator asking for information is
privy to the response. She mentioned For The Record (FTR), the
recording system used to keep the public record.
8:25:41 AM
MS. SCHOFIELD, in response to a question from Representative
Doll, reiterated that the last 30-day sessions held in Juneau
have cost approximately $800,000 and outside of Juneau would be
more, depending on what leadership deems necessary.
8:26:25 AM
CHAIR LYNN asked about a handout that shows statistics related
to air flights that have been diverted from Juneau.
8:26:32 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO indicated that he had received that
information from the Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities (DOT&PF). He said delays occur at the Anchorage
International Airport; however, he said he thinks that "everyone
here would probably acknowledge that Anchorage is a pretty
dependable airport."
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked Ms. Schofield what the annual budget
is for Legislative Affairs.
MS. SCHOFIELD said the answer depends on what aspect of the
legislature is being discussed. The session budget is
approximately $6 million or more.
8:29:28 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked the committee to consider the cost to
those constituents who want to testify in person. He said
Juneau became the capital originally because it was the center
of commerce, but the center of both commerce and the state's
population have shifted. He stated that "this location of
Southeast [Alaska] shows a diminishing population with time."
8:31:26 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO, in response to a question from Chair Lynn,
confirmed that the bill is not proposing to move the capital,
but only to hold special sessions outside of the capital on the
interconnected state road system in order to give access to the
greatest concentration of the state's population.
8:32:26 AM
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL directed attention to language on [page
2, lines 12-13], which read as follows:
(b) A special session may be held only at a [ANY]
location on the interconnected state road system [IN
THE STATE].
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL asked Representative Gatto for the
definition of "interconnected state road system."
8:32:53 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said such a system ought to be on hard
surface roads, and he expressed his inclination is to specify
the "rail belt," because that would include the major cities and
"very clearly defines what we mean by the system."
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL noted that by using the word "only", the
sponsor means to exclude many locations and narrow down the
accepted area.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO confirmed that that is his intention.
8:33:55 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG observed that the interconnected road
system, as defined by the bill sponsor, would exclude Juneau as
a possible location for special sessions, because even if a road
is built, there would still be a portion of the road that would
be the navigable waters used by the Alaska Marine Highway System
(AMHS).
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO responded, "I believe that's true."
8:34:40 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON remarked that even though AMHS's route is
considered an interconnected state road system, he would
"hesitate to think the part that goes through the Yukon and
British Columbia could ever be construed as a state road."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said that the language in the bill is
not clear.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he thinks changing the language to
"the rail belt" would clarify the matter.
8:35:37 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said Ms. Schofield has given the cost
related to holding special sessions in Anchorage, and he would
like to see a fiscal note reflecting "the most expensive and the
longest potential session."
MS. SCHOFIELD, in response to Representative Gruenberg,
clarified that the fiscal note does include Fairbanks as a
possible location for a special session, and she reiterated that
the cost would be higher. She stated, "Under these assumptions
- for a two-week [session] - it would be $438,000 extra." In
response to a follow-up question, she indicated that a 30-day
session in Fairbanks would most likely be calculated by removing
the one-time travel costs, doubling the remainder, [and adding
back in the one-time travel cost].
8:36:55 AM
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL remarked that Juneau has, in many ways,
been a good host community. He recommended talking to
prospective communities and asking if they are willing to put
forth what Juneau has. He explained that he is saying that in
defense of Juneau. He stated that he does not mind increasing
the scope of where a special session may be held - a capability
he said he thinks is already allowed by statute. He indicated
that this bill may not even be necessary.
8:38:31 AM
CHAIR LYNN said the people of Juneau are cordial and he praised
their hospitality. He clarified that the bill "has nothing to
do with Juneau itself or anything that goes on here," but rather
is just addressing "the practicalities of where we might have a
special session."
8:39:27 AM
MS. SCHOFIELD, in response to a question from Representative
Roses, said car rentals are usually approved for legislators who
do not have access to a vehicle and need one to get to session,
and that would be no different in Anchorage, for example, than
it is in Juneau.
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES pointed out that a lot more legislators
would have access to their cars on the interconnected state road
system than in Juneau. He said he thinks there are a lot of
costs involved that aren't reported because they are considered
part of normal expense, but he said he thinks many of those
costs would be deferred. He said he hopes that the legislature,
because of the expense involved, would want to let communities
bid on having the special session in their town, because he said
he guarantees the cost would be driven down considerably.
8:41:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG referred to a sentence from Article II,
Section 9, of the Constitution of the State of Alaska, which
read: "Special sessions may be called by the governor or by
vote of two-thirds of the legislators." He said a legislature
cannot bind a subsequent legislature on such issues as
appropriations. He questioned the constitutionality of the
proposed legislation, explaining that it attempts - in this
legislature - to bind a separate future legislature on where it
may hold special sessions. He asked the bill sponsor if he has
obtained a legal opinion on that issue.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO answered, "Not to my knowledge." He
continued:
However, any special session requires expenditure of
funds. And whether or not it's binding on a different
legislature to say, "We're going to spend a certain
amount of money only in one location, and that's
legitimate for every future legislative session,"
versus, "We're going to spend the money in a different
location and possibly a different amount," since the
amount of money is not certain in any event.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG responded:
That raises a second issue whether this could bind the
appropriations to pay for this. I think it's pretty
clear it could not. I'm talking about the text
itself, whether the current text - the authorizing
legislation that attempts to bind where a future
legislature could call itself into session - would be.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG noted that HB 318 would not be heard by
the House Judiciary Standing Committee, and he said he thinks
the committee should get a legal opinion regarding the bill's
constitutionality.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said, "I think this is a thin argument that
is there only to maybe raise a question." He said he thinks the
question is certainly answered in the constitution, which simply
states that the legislature may call itself into a session. The
implication is that doing so will cost money no matter where the
session is held. He said the legislature is not binding another
legislature by calling itself in or being called in by the
governor.
8:44:43 AM
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL questioned the use of the word "only" [text
provided previously], which would mean the legislature would
have to meet outside of Juneau, even for a special session that
was called to begin directly after a regular session when all
the legislators would still be in Juneau. She remarked that
much of the state is being left out of consideration. She asked
the bill sponsor to comment.
8:46:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO responded, "This bill is not about us; this
bill is all about the public."
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL, in response to a question from
Representative Gatto, confirmed that legislative special
sessions can follow immediately after regular sessions. He said
he thinks exclusive language in the bill could be problematic.
8:47:49 AM
TAMMY WILSON, testifying on behalf of herself, said the
committee is missing the point that the legislation is about the
interaction that all constituents want to experience. She said
the only reason she was able to afford coming to the capital was
because the airline had a special rate and she had a daughter
living in Juneau who could house her. She said the money spent
in another city in Alaska boosts that city's economy. She
remarked on the enthusiasm of public participants of the recent
special session held in Anchorage, and noted that some of them
had traveled down from Fairbanks. Ms. Wilson talked about being
able to bring children to talk to legislators one on one, not to
"a black box on a table." She asked the committee to support HB
318.
8:49:50 AM
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL thanked Ms. Wilson for "coming out and
speaking to the black box." He reminded Ms. Wilson that the
bill would require special sessions to be held outside of
Juneau, but where regular sessions should be held is a bigger
issue for another venue.
MS. WILSON remarked that sometimes it is difficult to understand
testimony if someone does not speak into the microphone, so at
least having special session where she can be in the same room
with the testifiers and committee members would be better than
the present situation.
8:51:01 AM
VIVIAN STIVER testified on behalf of herself in support of HB
318. She stated her belief that special sessions should be more
accessible to the population, because the issues dealt with in
them are usually ones about which people in the community are
passionate. She said people are more likely to participate if
they can come see legislators face to face, but the cost of
going to Juneau is prohibitive for a majority of Alaskans.
Holding [special sessions] on the road system would make [public
participation] much more accessible and affordable. In response
to a question from Chair Lynn, she said she is a small business
owner who sits on the Fairbanks City Council.
8:52:28 AM
WIN GRUENING, Alaska Committee, testified on behalf of the
Alaska Committee, which he stated is an all-volunteer, nonprofit
group in Juneau dedicated to improving and enhancing Juneau as
Alaska's capital city. He said it makes little sense to try to
duplicate "all the infrastructure, offices, staffing, and Gavel
to Gavel coverage" that currently exist in the capital city and
pay the related cost of doing so by moving special sessions to
another city or cities, particularly when a special session
immediately follows a regular session and the entire legislature
is convened in the capitol.
MR. GRUENING stated that Gavel to Gavel coverage is available
and provides the greatest access to all Alaskans. To previous
testifiers who talked about the disconnection between themselves
and the legislature, he suggested monitoring the meetings on
television where they could see the expressions of the
legislators better than if they were sitting in the back of the
committee room. At this point in time, he said, it is not clear
if it would be technically feasible to provide Gavel to Gavel
coverage in another city that was not equipped for it.
MR. GRUENING, regarding the sponsor's statement, said it is hard
to understand where any cost savings would be realized. Per
diem is paid to all legislators, regardless of where the
legislature meets, and, as has been pointed out, per diem in
Anchorage is much higher than it is in Juneau. The cost of
providing a special session in another city would be
substantially more than it is in Juneau, he said, and that does
not include the cost - currently $500,000 a year - of producing
Gavel to Gavel coverage, which is provided primarily through the
support of the community of Juneau. Mr. Gruening noted that the
cost of the recent special session in Anchorage was
approximately 50 percent higher than a similar session that was
held in Juneau in 2004. Even at almost double the price, those
costs did not include facility rental fees, because the
aforementioned special session in Anchorage took place in
donated facilities. Furthermore, there was no Gavel to Gavel
coverage, he reminded the committee.
8:56:23 AM
MR. GRUENING asked how holding a special session that is not
televised or covered by Gavel to Gavel would increase access.
He said it would increase access for the several dozen people
who may attend a special session in another city, but would take
access away from thousands of potential people who would watch
it on Gavel to Gavel. Mr. Gruening said millions of dollars
have been spent by the community of Juneau, in partnership with
the local public television station, to design and construct the
currently used system, and none of the funding for that system
came from the legislature. He listed the following as required
to make [Gavel to Gavel] run seamlessly: miles of cabling,
expensive video cameras, new production studios, digital
switches, satellite link up, streaming technology, storage for
archiving, the training of personnel, production procedures, and
various back-up systems. He reemphasized the length of time and
the expense necessary to duplicate such coverage, and he said
none of that is considered in the bill before the committee.
MR. GRUENING said the proposed legislation is promoted as saving
costs and increasing access to the legislature. He continued:
The sponsor points to the special session held last
year as an example of how important this bill is, yet
the fact that a special session was held outside the
capital city proves only that this bill is
unnecessary. As Representative Coghill pointed out,
the legislature or the governor can make a decision
any time it wants to call a special session in any
location in Alaska .... All this bill does is limit
the options available to either party to pick the best
location. The irony here is that if the bill passed
and ... some natural disaster occurred in Southcentral
- a volcano, an earthquake, a flood; natural disasters
that have occurred in Southcentral in the not-too-
distant past - you would have to pass another law to
move it to Juneau, even temporarily.
MR. GRUENING urged the committee to hold HB 318. He stated that
the bill not only does not provide any authority beyond what is
available now, it limits existing authority. He said he is not
denying that there may be future reasons to hold a special
session in another part of the state, but he said he does not
think it should be done without fully analyzing the costs and
considering the issue of Gavel to Gavel coverage.
8:59:31 AM
RANDY WANNAMAKER, Deputy Mayor, City & Borough of Juneau (CBJ),
testified on behalf of CBJ. He stated that over the years, the
Juneau Assembly has consistently supported both the completion
of the Juneau access road project and funding for the Alaska
Marine Highway system. He said the highway system is a part of
the interconnected state road system; the federal government
shares that view and provides federal highway funds for various
transportation systems across Alaska, including the Lynn Canal
project and the Alaska Marine Highway System. He warned that
passage of HB 318 could hinder both federal [and] state funding
for these road systems.
MR. WANNAMAKER echoed Mr. Gruening's testimony that the
legislature already has the ability to call a special session
anywhere in the state. He said the bill assumes that there will
never be "a project or issue so unique to the people and
resources of another region of the state that the legislature
would never consider holding a special session in that region."
He questioned the wisdom of that way of thinking. Regarding the
argument that the bill would allow the legislature proximity to
the majority of the population, he noted that 33 of the 50
United States do not have state capitals located in their
largest cities.
MR. WANNAMAKER said the Juneau Assembly has consistently
supported the Kensington Gold Mine as a means of diversifying
its local and regional economy, but he warned that the passage
of HB 318 would "weaken our economy." He said Alaskans need to
work on improving all modes of transportation and communication
between regions. He urged the committee to preserve the current
flexibility the legislature already has to call special sessions
wherever it so chooses. He also remarked that air travel to
legislative session is common in the Lower 48.
9:04:35 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON, regarding previous testimony about Gavel
to Gavel, talked about advances in technology and said, "... the
millions of dollars that you spend here is not needed there,
because it already exists in three or four places." He
clarified that although Gavel to Gavel coverage is an issue, it
is not a "bill killer."
9:05:19 AM
CHAIR LYNN closed public testimony.
[HB 318 was heard and held.]
9:05:29 AM
CHAIR LYNN briefly discussed the upcoming committee calendar.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at
9:05:39 AM.
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