Legislature(2009 - 2010)CAPITOL 106

03/16/2010 08:00 AM STATE AFFAIRS


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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+= HB 348 PERSONNEL BOARD MEMBERSHIP TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHB 348(STA) Out of Committee
+ SB 194 ALCOHOL VIOLATIONS: PENALTY/CIVIL DAMAGES TELECONFERENCED
Moved Out of Committee
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
             HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                         March 16, 2010                                                                                         
                           8:09 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bob Lynn, Chair                                                                                                  
Representative Paul Seaton, Vice Chair                                                                                          
Representative Carl Gatto                                                                                                       
Representative Craig Johnson                                                                                                    
Representative Peggy Wilson                                                                                                     
Representative Max Gruenberg                                                                                                    
Representative Pete Petersen                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 348                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the membership of the state personnel                                                                       
board."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHB 348(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 194(JUD)                                                                               
"An Act relating to penalties and civil damages for certain                                                                     
alcohol violations."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 348                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: PERSONNEL BOARD MEMBERSHIP                                                                                         
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) LYNN                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
02/17/10       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/17/10       (H)       STA, JUD                                                                                               
03/11/10       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106                                                                             
03/11/10       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
03/11/10       (H)       MINUTE(STA)                                                                                            
03/16/10       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
BILL: SB 194                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: MINORS:  ALCOHOL VIOLATIONS/ I.D. CARDS                                                                            
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) MEYER                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
04/17/09       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
04/17/09       (S)       STA, JUD                                                                                               
01/28/10       (S)       STA AT 9:00 AM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                      
01/28/10       (S)       Moved CSSB 194(STA) Out of Committee                                                                   
01/28/10       (S)       MINUTE(STA)                                                                                            
01/29/10       (S)       STA RPT CS  5DP     NEW TITLE                                                                          
01/29/10       (S)       DP: MENARD, FRENCH, MEYER, PASKVAN,                                                                    
                         KOOKESH                                                                                                
02/10/10       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                      
02/10/10       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/10/10       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/15/10       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                      
02/15/10       (S)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/15/10       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/17/10       (S)       JUD AT 1:30 PM BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)                                                                      
02/17/10       (S)       Moved CSSB 194(JUD) Out of Committee                                                                   
02/17/10       (S)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/18/10       (S)       JUD RPT CS  3DP 1NR    NEW TITLE                                                                       
02/18/10       (S)       DP: FRENCH, WIELECHOWSKI, EGAN                                                                         
02/18/10       (S)       NR: COGHILL                                                                                            
02/22/10       (S)       TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                     
02/22/10       (S)       VERSION: CSSB 194(JUD)                                                                                 
02/23/10       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/23/10       (H)       STA, JUD                                                                                               
03/16/10       (H)       STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL SICA, Staff                                                                                                             
Representative Bob Lynn                                                                                                         
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented HB 348 on behalf of                                                                            
Representative Lynn, sponsor.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
WILLIAM MILKS, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                       
Labor and State Affairs Section                                                                                                 
Civil Division (Juneau)                                                                                                         
Department of Law                                                                                                               
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified during the hearing on HB 348.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MIKE FORD, Assistant Attorney General & Legislative Liaison                                                                     
Legislation & Regulations Section                                                                                               
Civil Division (Juneau)                                                                                                         
Department of Law                                                                                                               
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:   Offered information  during the  hearing on                                                             
HB 348.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
DOUG WOOLIVER, Administrative Attorney                                                                                          
Administrative Staff                                                                                                            
Office of the Administrative Director                                                                                           
Alaska Court System                                                                                                             
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:   Provided information during  the hearing on                                                             
HB 348.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
NICKI NEAL, Director                                                                                                            
Division of Personnel & Labor Relations                                                                                         
Department of Administration                                                                                                    
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Discussed the zero fiscal note to HB 348.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHRISTINE MARASIGAN, Staff                                                                                                      
Senator Kevin Meyer                                                                                                             
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Introduced  SB 194  on  behalf of  Senator                                                             
Meyer, sponsor.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
OTHAL C. MADDEN III, Director of Operations                                                                                     
Brown Jug, Inc.                                                                                                                 
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of SB 194.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR KEVIN MEYER                                                                                                             
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as sponsor of SB 194.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:09:06 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR BOB LYNN called the  House State Affairs Standing Committee                                                             
meeting to  order at  8:09 a.m.   Representatives  Seaton, Gatto,                                                               
Johnson, Wilson, Petersen,  and Lynn were present at  the call to                                                               
order.   Representative Gruenberg arrived  as the meeting  was in                                                               
progress.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
               HB 348-PERSONNEL BOARD MEMBERSHIP                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:09:58 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN announced  that the first order of  business was HOUSE                                                               
BILL NO.  348, "An Act  relating to  the membership of  the state                                                               
personnel board."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
8:10:15 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL  SICA,  Staff,  Representative  Bob  Lynn,  Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature, presented  HB 348 on behalf  of Representative Lynn,                                                               
sponsor.  He reminded the committee  that HB 348 would change the                                                               
membership  of the  Alaska State  Personnel Board  from three  to                                                               
five.  The  governor would make an appointment from  a list of at                                                               
least three nominees selected by  the chief justice of the Alaska                                                               
Supreme  Court.    Furthermore, the  proposed  legislation  would                                                               
ensure that  at least one  member of  the political party  of the                                                               
candidate for governor  who received the highest  number of votes                                                               
and  one member  of  the  political party  of  the candidate  for                                                               
governor who  received the second-highest  number of  votes would                                                               
serve on the  board.  Mr. Sica explained that  the reason for the                                                               
legislation  is to  create  a board  that  operates with  greater                                                               
independence.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SICA said  Sections 2  and 4  are conforming  sections.   He                                                               
described Section  3 as  a "conflict"  section, because  it would                                                               
prohibit board members  from certain activities that  may lead to                                                               
or  be perceived  as  a  conflict of  interest.    Mr. Sica  said                                                               
Section 5 relates to the duration of terms.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:12:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN said  there are  two reasons  for the  proposed bill.                                                               
First, it would  protect the governor from  unfair criticism from                                                               
the  public, by  reassuring  the public  regarding the  personnel                                                               
board appointments.   Second, it would help the  governor to know                                                               
that he/she is receiving unbiased decisions from the board.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:14:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WILLIAM  MILKS,  Assistant  Attorney  General,  Labor  and  State                                                               
Affairs  Section, Civil  Division  (Juneau),  Department of  Law,                                                               
stated  that  the bill  as  currently  drafted would  change  the                                                               
process  for  appointment to  the  personnel  board, wherein  the                                                               
governor  would  make an  appointment  from  a list  of  nominees                                                               
chosen by the  chief justice, and the governor's  choice would be                                                               
subject  to confirmation  by the  legislature.   He reminded  the                                                               
committee that the Department of  Law has taken the position that                                                               
these types  of restrictions on the  governor's appointment power                                                               
create  constitutional  issues.   He  explained  that is  because                                                               
Article 3, Section 26, of  the Alaska State Constitution directly                                                               
addresses  appointments to  commissions  or  boards and  provides                                                               
that  the  board  member  shall be  appointed  by  the  governor,                                                               
subject to  confirmation of  the legislature.   He referred  to a                                                               
case,  Bradner v.  Hammond,  in which  the  court indicates  that                                                             
Sections 25  and 26 are clear.   He related that  the executive's                                                               
point of power is limited only  as set forth in Section 26, which                                                               
provides for confirmation.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:16:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MILKS  said the department is  aware that there are  a number                                                               
of statutes that have been  enacted that provide for the governor                                                               
to appoint from  lists; however, he said the  department has held                                                               
the position  that appointments  from lists  raise constitutional                                                               
issues under Bradner  and under the Constitution of  the State of                                                             
Alaska.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN  asked, "Has  this  been  a  problem in  these  other                                                               
appointments?"                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MILKS answered,  "Well, I  suppose  any case  can always  be                                                               
brought  in litigation,  so, that's  there, just  like this  bill                                                               
would  be there;  we do  identify that  issue."   Mr. Milks  said                                                               
other  types of  limitations  exist, such  as qualifications  for                                                               
certain  boards or  commissions where  there may  be requirements                                                               
for members to hold certain  advanced degrees in order to address                                                               
certain issues.  He said that  has not proved to be a significant                                                               
issue, whereas "strict appointments off lists" has.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:18:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO asked  what  the governor's  rights are  in                                                               
making appointments, under current law.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:18:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MILKS answered  by  citing  Article 3,  Section  26, of  the                                                               
Constitution  of  the State  of  Alaska,  which read  as  follows                                                               
[original punctuation provided]:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     When  a  board  or  commission  is at  the  head  of  a                                                                    
     principal department or  a regulatory or quasi-judicial                                                                    
     agency,  its   members  shall   be  appointed   by  the                                                                    
     governor, subject to confirmation  by a majority of the                                                                    
     members of  the legislature  in joint session,  and may                                                                    
     be removed as  provided by law. They  shall be citizens                                                                    
     of  the  United States.  The  board  or commission  may                                                                    
     appoint a  principal executive officer  when authorized                                                                    
     by law,  but the  appointment shall  be subject  to the                                                                    
     approval of the governor.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. MILKS, in response to  Representative Gatto, said the Bradner                                                             
case relates  to Section 25 of  the Constitution of the  State of                                                               
Alaska.   He explained that  the legislature passed a  statute to                                                               
enable  itself to  provide for  confirmation of  deputy heads  of                                                               
departments and  19 specific directors  of divisions, and  in the                                                               
Bradner  case,  the court  decided  that  the effort  to  require                                                             
confirmation of  these executive  branch appointees  violated the                                                               
separation of powers.   Mr. Milks said there is  also language in                                                               
the  court's  decision  regarding   Sections  25  and  26,  which                                                               
"indicates that ...  the powers have been  separated here through                                                               
the constitution, and shows ...  where the legislative [branch's]                                                               
power is and where the executive [branch's power is]."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  questioned if  it is against  separation of                                                               
powers  when   [the  governor's]  appointments  are   subject  to                                                               
confirmation  by  the legislature.    He  added, "That  gives  us                                                               
authority over the governor's ability to appoint."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MILKS responded  that the  provisions and  the Bradner  case                                                             
exist,  but  he cannot  predict  how  "this entire  system  plays                                                               
itself out" if a court reviews any particular statute.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if a  governor could repeatedly demand                                                               
three additional appointees, and continue to refuse them all.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:22:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MILKS responded said he  thinks that the proposed legislation                                                               
does provide for the ability to ask for additional names.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN  suggested this  is  somewhat  parallel to  when  the                                                               
legislature had  to fill  the vacancy in  the Senate  and several                                                               
lists were submitted before the governor made an appointment.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:22:38 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MIKE  FORD, Assistant  Attorney  General  & Legislative  Liaison,                                                               
Legislation  &  Regulations  Section,  Civil  Division  (Juneau),                                                               
Department of  Law, concurred  that there  are some  parallels to                                                               
that  situation in  the sense  that  there are  some gray  areas.                                                               
Statute offers certain  guidelines, he said, "but  there are some                                                               
gaps."   He  said  the  situation to  which  Chair Lynn  referred                                                               
highlighted some of those gaps.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FORD  offered  his  understanding  that  the  department  is                                                               
pointing  out that  since  the 1976  Alaska  Supreme Court  case,                                                               
there have  been a  lot of variations  on a theme.   He  said the                                                               
legislature passed some  provisions that may not  comply with the                                                               
state  constitution, but  there has  not been  litigation to  the                                                               
point that the  department has any new information  to present to                                                               
the legislature.  He clarified:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     So, all we're  trying to do is say we  think there's an                                                                    
     issue here.   Obviously, if this became law  and no one                                                                    
     challenged  it,  there is  no  issue,  but if  it  does                                                                    
     become  law and  someone  does challenge  it, then  the                                                                    
     court's going to  have to look at this  case and decide                                                                    
     if it's still  valid law.  If it is,  then the bill you                                                                    
     have in front of you could create some problems.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN suggested  that that could be said of  almost any bill                                                               
passed by the legislature.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FORD  responded  that  some bills  raise  more  issues  than                                                               
others.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:24:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN asked which would  insulate the governor from incoming                                                               
complaints:   the system in place  now or the one  proposed in HB                                                               
348.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:24:42 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. FORD  said he thinks the  bill does provide at  least a layer                                                               
of  insulation; it  would create  a  system where  there is  some                                                               
distance between the governor and the board.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:25:06 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  P. WILSON  opined, "If  it's okay  to do  it with                                                               
appointing a  Senator, surely [it]  should be  okay ... to  do it                                                               
with appointing someone to the personnel board."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:25:37 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN observed that the  fact that the terms on                                                               
the personnel board  are six years and staggered  means that some                                                               
members will be left over  from the previous governor; therefore,                                                               
the governor could not be accused of stacking the board.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN expressed  his hope that by having a  larger number of                                                               
board  members, there  would be  a greater  diversity of  opinion                                                               
when it comes to making decisions.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:26:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  directed attention to language  in HB 348,                                                               
beginning on page 1, line 15,  through page 2, line 3, which read                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     A  vacancy in  an  unexpired term  shall  be filled  by                                                                    
     appointment by  the governor for  the remainder  of the                                                                    
     term.  The appointment is  made from a list of nominees                                                                
     and subject  to confirmation  in the  same manner  as a                                                                
     full-term appointment.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if that  language is written in a way                                                               
that  would allow  a  person  to serve  on  the  board until  the                                                               
legislature comes into session and confirms his/her appointment.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:27:58 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. FORD noted  that proposed language in  the sentence preceding                                                               
line 15 read,  "the member remains in office  after expiration of                                                           
the term  until a successor is  confirmed".  He said  he does not                                                           
see that there would be a vacancy.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  suggested that there could  be a situation                                                               
in which  someone dies before his/her  term expires.  He  said it                                                               
appears that  the bill is  anticipating those situations,  and he                                                               
wants to ensure  that a person will be able  to fill that vacancy                                                               
and  serve  until  his/her confirmation  or  rejection  has  been                                                               
decided.   He stated  that the last  thing he wants  to see  is a                                                               
political fight over an appointment.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:29:29 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.   FORD  stated   his  belief   that  serving   before  actual                                                               
confirmation is the  usual practice.  In response  to Chair Lynn,                                                               
he confirmed that that applies to the attorney general, as well.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:32:02 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DOUG  WOOLIVER,  Administrative Attorney,  Administrative  Staff,                                                               
Office  of  the  Administrative Director,  Alaska  Court  System,                                                               
stated that although  the Alaska Court System  typically does not                                                               
support or  oppose bills,  it is not  enthusiastic about  HB 348.                                                               
The  court  occasionally  is involved  in  forwarding  names  for                                                               
nominations.    For example,  the  court  forwards names  to  the                                                               
Select  Committee on  Legislative Ethics  and appoints  the fifth                                                               
member of  the redistricting board.   However, Mr.  Wooliver said                                                               
the court is  reluctant regarding the proposed  legislation for a                                                               
couple reasons.  First, there  is an inherent political aspect to                                                               
the appointment process, and the  court must pay attention to the                                                               
political  affiliation  of the  names  it  submits.   This  is  a                                                               
political environment, which the  court generally tries to avoid.                                                               
The other area of concern, he  related, is that unlike the Select                                                               
Committee on Legislative Ethics,  which deals with ethics issues,                                                               
the  personnel  board  keeps  an  eye on  how  personnel  in  the                                                               
executive branch is managed.   He stated, "The court is reluctant                                                               
to take  on a  role that is  even kind of  minor and  indirect in                                                               
determining  how that  management defers  or how  that management                                                               
staff is put in place."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:34:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WOOLIVER,  in  response  to Chair  Lynn,  said  the  court's                                                               
reaction to the proposed legislation does  not have to do with an                                                               
issue of workload.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:34:26 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN asked Mr. Wooliver  if he can suggest who                                                               
better to bring forth these names.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. WOOLIVER answered  no.  He said he  understands the rationale                                                               
behind proposing that the court make the list of nominees.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:35:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WOOLIVER, in response to Chair  Lynn, said he is not sure how                                                               
the chief justice would select the  names, but it could involve a                                                               
combination  of  accepting  names  from  interested  parties  and                                                               
searching for suitable parties.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:35:36 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO directed  attention to  a term  on page  1,                                                               
line 10:  "party of the  candidate for governor".  He pointed out                                                           
that as soon  as the election is over, the  governor is no longer                                                               
a candidate,  and he asked  how that  term applies to  a governor                                                               
making appointments.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:36:23 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WOOLIVER said  he interprets that language to mean  that in a                                                               
typical election,  there is  a candidate  from each  major party,                                                               
and  one of  them gets  the highest  number of  votes, while  the                                                               
other  gets   the  second-highest  votes  and   does  not  become                                                               
governor.   He  speculated that  the language  may come  from the                                                               
existing  language  of the  appointment  process  for the  Select                                                               
Committee on  Legislative Ethics.   He said  Representative Gatto                                                               
is  correct that  at the  point of  making the  appointments, the                                                               
governor would no longer be a candidate.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:37:09 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SICA offered  his understanding  that the  language in  that                                                               
section of  the proposed  legislation merely  refers to  the last                                                               
general election, and  it comes from AS  15.13.020(b), which read                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
          (b) The governor shall appoint two members of                                                                         
     each of  the two political parties  whose candidate for                                                                    
     governor received  the highest  number of votes  in the                                                                    
     most  recent  preceding  general election  at  which  a                                                                    
     governor was elected.  The  two appointees from each of                                                                    
     these two parties  shall be chosen from a  list of four                                                                    
     names to be submitted by  the central committee of each                                                                    
     party.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO,  in  response  to Chair  Lynn,  said  that                                                               
response cleared up the issue.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:38:12 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  opined  that  it  would  be  a  fairly                                                               
cumbersome  process  for the  chief  justice  to propose  to  the                                                               
governor,  who  would  then  propose  to  the  legislature.    He                                                               
suggested one  alternative would be  for the governor  to propose                                                               
appointees  to  the  legislature   without  involving  the  chief                                                               
justice.   The other option, he  proffered, would be to  have the                                                               
chief  justice propose  appointees  to  the legislature,  without                                                               
involving the governor.   He said he favors  the latter approach,                                                               
because it  would avoid  the appearance  of impropriety  that may                                                               
result  in having  the governor  choosing members  for the  chief                                                               
ethics board for the executive branch.   He asked Mr. Wooliver to                                                               
comment.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:39:25 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WOOLIVER responded that the  court's only concern is being in                                                               
the process.  He offered his  understanding that it would make no                                                               
difference to  the chief justice  where he/she sends  a nominee's                                                               
name.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:40:31 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WOOLIVER, in  response to  Representative  Seaton, said  the                                                               
proposed process of having the  chief justice submit "a name," at                                                               
which  point  the  legislative confirmation  process  would  take                                                               
place,  does  not cause  him  concern,  because that  process  is                                                               
similar to  the one  currently used for  the Select  Committee on                                                               
Legislative Ethics.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:41:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON  said she can see  no difference between                                                               
the current  method and having the  chief justice send a  list of                                                               
three people to the governor -  the governor would still have the                                                               
ability to  turn down those  on the list.   She stated,  "I'm not                                                               
sure why it's too cumbersome of  a process here when it's not too                                                               
cumbersome somewhere else."                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:42:54 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON   said   he  thinks   traditionally   the                                                               
requirement has  been to submit  three names,  but that is  not a                                                               
statutory requirement.   In response to Chair  Lynn, he clarified                                                               
that  he  thinks  the  reference   to  the  Select  Committee  on                                                               
Legislative  Ethics is  specific and  direct in  statute, but  he                                                               
does not want  the committee to draw too much  comparison to what                                                               
traditionally has been done.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:44:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  P.  WILSON  said  she  would  like  clarification                                                               
regarding  what the  statutes require  and what  is traditionally                                                               
done.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:45:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WOOLIVER, in  response to  Representative Johnson,  reviewed                                                               
the process  by which a  judge is appointed.   He said  there are                                                               
certain  statutory  qualifications that  have  to  be met.    The                                                               
applicants submit their  names to the judicial  council, which is                                                               
a  body made  up of  members of  the bar  association and  public                                                               
members confirmed by the legislature.   The chief justice sits as                                                               
the official head, but only votes in  the case of a tie.  He said                                                               
that  committee   goes  through  a  public   comment  period  and                                                               
selection  process, then  it sends  at least  two names  for each                                                               
vacancy to  the governor.   The governor  then chooses  from that                                                               
list to make the judicial appointment.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  remarked that  that is not  dissimilar to                                                               
the  process being  discussed by  the committee,  except for  the                                                               
confirmation process with the legislature.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. WOOLIVER responded  that it is a little  different, but there                                                               
are some similarities.   He said one [difference]  is that "one's                                                               
in the constitution."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:46:26 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
NICKI NEAL,  Director, Division of  Personnel &  Labor Relations,                                                               
Department of Administration, reminded  the committee that at the                                                               
last bill hearing,  there had been a question  regarding the zero                                                               
fiscal note.  She said  the personnel board consists of volunteer                                                               
members,  and  it is  the  current  members' preference  to  meet                                                               
during  the noon  hour, with  quarterly  meetings that  typically                                                               
last  one  to  two  hours.    Because  of  this,  the  department                                                               
currently does not pay for  members' travel costs.  She explained                                                               
that due to the short duration  of the meetings, any members from                                                               
out of  town can  participate via teleconference.   She  said the                                                               
department expects this pattern to continue.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:48:06 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN,  after ascertaining  that there was  no one  else who                                                               
wished to testify, closed public testimony.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 8:48:13 AM to 8:48:34 AM.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:48:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG,  responding to  Representative Wilson's                                                               
previous question, said  the Constitution of the  State of Alaska                                                               
sets  out that  if there  is a  vacancy in  the legislature,  the                                                               
procedure for filling that vacancy shall  be provided by law.  If                                                               
there is  no provision in  the law,  the governor shall  fill the                                                               
vacancy by  appointment.  He  relayed that AS 15.40.330  does not                                                               
specifically require  that the political  party shall  send names                                                               
to the governor.  AS 15.40.330 read as follows:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Sec.  15.40.330.    Qualification and  confirmation  of                                                                    
     appointee.                                                                                                                 
          (a) The appointee shall meet the qualifications                                                                       
     of a  member of the  legislature as prescribed  in Sec.                                                                    
     2,  art.  II of  the  state  constitution, shall  be  a                                                                    
     member  of  the  same  political party  as  that  which                                                                    
     nominated  the  predecessor  in office,  and  shall  be                                                                    
     subject to  confirmation by a  majority of  the members                                                                    
     of  the  legislature  who  are   members  of  the  same                                                                    
     political  party  which  nominated the  predecessor  in                                                                    
     office and of the same  house as was the predecessor in                                                                    
     office.     If  the  predecessor  in   office  was  not                                                                    
     nominated by  a political party  or if no  other member                                                                    
     of  the predecessor's  political party  is a  member of                                                                    
     the  predecessor's   house  of  the   legislature,  the                                                                    
     governor  may appoint  any qualified  person.   If  the                                                                    
     appointee is  not a  member of  a political  party, the                                                                    
     appointment  is not  subject to  confirmation.   If the                                                                    
     appointee  is  a  member  of  a  political  party,  the                                                                    
     appointment is  subject to confirmation as  provided by                                                                    
     this section  for the  confirmation of  political party                                                                    
     appointees.                                                                                                                
          (b) A member of a political party is a person who                                                                     
     supports the political program of  a party.  The filing                                                                    
     for  office of  a candidate  as an  independent or  no-                                                                    
     party  candidate does  not  preclude  a candidate  from                                                                    
     being a member of a  political party. Recognition of an                                                                    
     independent  or no-party  candidate  as a  member of  a                                                                    
     party  caucus  of members  of  the  legislature at  the                                                                    
     legislative  session  following  the  election  of  the                                                                    
     independent  or no-party  candidate  is recognition  of                                                                    
     that  person's party  membership  at  the time  filings                                                                    
     were  made  by  party   candidates  for  the  preceding                                                                    
     general election.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG   said    he   hopes   that   answered                                                               
Representative Wilson's question.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
[MS. WILSON nodded.]                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:51:42 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG  said   he  composed   two  amendments                                                               
[forthwith called  Amendment 1  and Amendment  2] to  address his                                                               
previously stated idea regarding  either having the chief justice                                                               
submit to  the legislature or  having the governor submit  to the                                                               
legislature.  The language of  the latter amendment is taken from                                                               
the  language in  the existing  Legislative Ethics  statute.   In                                                               
response to Chair  Lynn, he said the second  amendment would take                                                               
some  power out  of the  governor's hands,  but would  "avoid the                                                               
possibility of the appearance of  a conflict of interest, because                                                               
these are the people that would judge his own ethics."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:52:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN said he thinks the governor should be involved.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:53:45 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  stated  that  there  is  a  difference                                                               
between  this process  and the  Legislative Ethics  process.   He                                                               
continued as follows:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     If there  is an ethical  complaint against a  member of                                                                    
     the House,  then it's judged  by a subcommittee  of the                                                                    
     committee  on  Legislative  Ethics  consisting  of  the                                                                    
     members  of  that  committee from  the  House  and  the                                                                    
     public  members.    If  there's  an  ethical  complaint                                                                    
     against a  Senator, it's judged  by the  Senate members                                                                    
     and the  members of the public.   So, this is  a little                                                                    
     bit  different than  that,  and that  may  be why  they                                                                    
     require  two-thirds  separate  vote rather  than  in  a                                                                    
     joint session.  So, ...  they'll be voted on separately                                                                    
     in the Legislative Ethics process.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said  the reason he chose  doing it this                                                               
way is  because it would not  be necessary to wait  until a joint                                                               
session and  the issue  could be  taken care of  right away.   He                                                               
related  the other  reason is  because  if the  process is  being                                                               
truncated,  it would  make  sense  to be  certain  there is  more                                                               
unanimity,  and  two-thirds is  a  super  majority.   This  would                                                               
ensure   that   the   people   chosen   are   not   "terrifically                                                               
controversial."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN remarked  that sometimes  when a  person is  known as                                                               
controversial it means he/she is  not afraid to address important                                                               
issues.  He reiterated that he  thinks the governor should have a                                                               
hand in deciding the makeup of boards and commissions.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:56:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if Amendment 1 had been offered.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:56:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  moved to adopt Conceptual  Amendment 1,                                                               
which read  as follows [original punctuation  provided, with some                                                               
handwritten changes]:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, Line 5 after the word "and"                                                                                        
          Delete: the rest of line 5 through the word                                                                           
     "nominations" on line 8                                                                                                    
          Insert: "ratified by two-thirds of the full                                                                           
      membership of the senate and two-thirds of the full                                                                       
     membership of the house."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3 line 9                                                                                                              
       delete "chief justice of the Alaska Supreme Court                                                                        
          insert "goveror"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3 line 9                                                                                                              
          delete "governor"                                                                                                     
          insert "legislature"                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:57:18 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON objected to Conceptual Amendment 1.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:57:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG,  in response to  Representative Seaton,                                                               
said his  intent in offering  Conceptual Amendment 1 is  that for                                                               
each position the governor would propose one name.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:58:11 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  concluded that [with  Conceptual Amendment                                                               
1], the proposed  legislation would expand the  number of members                                                               
to five and "leave everything else in law as it currently is."                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG confirmed that is correct.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:58:38 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SICA noted  that Conceptual Amendment 1 would  not delete the                                                               
language [in Section  1] regarding the members  of each political                                                               
party.    He  noted  that   Rule  46  addresses  confirmation  of                                                               
appointments,  and language  in it  read, "Such  appointments are                                                               
subject  to  confirmation   by  a  majority  vote   of  the  full                                                               
membership  of the  legislature in  joint session."   He  related                                                               
that Rule 46 makes reference to  Sections 25 and 26, Article III,                                                               
of the Constitution of the State of Alaska.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:00:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO questioned  how the  governor would  ensure                                                               
that the board  has at least one member from  the political party                                                               
whose candidate for governor was  elected and one member from the                                                               
political  party whose  candidate for  governor was  not elected,                                                               
when  it is  the  legislature  that has  the  final word  through                                                               
confirmations.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  said Representative Gatto makes  a good                                                               
point and suggested  that the language may need to  be drafted to                                                               
address that issue.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:02:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said  he thinks the purpose of  the bill is                                                               
two-fold:   to  increase  the  membership of  the  board, and  to                                                               
somewhat  insulate  the  governor  from  the  direct  appointment                                                               
process.  He  opined that the court would be  an appropriate body                                                               
to be making  the list.  If  there was a resignation  of a person                                                               
with a  political party affiliation,  the court would  submit the                                                               
names of  individuals with  the same  party affiliation,  so that                                                               
whoever  was selected  from that  list  could be  confirmed.   He                                                               
maintained his objection to Conceptual Amendment 1.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  remarked that [Conceptual  Amendment 1]  would defeat                                                               
the basic purpose of the proposed bill.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:04:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SICA  suggested that  it might be  helpful to  understand the                                                               
history of  the Select  Committee on  Legislative Ethics  and how                                                               
the  chief justice  of the  court became  involved.   He said  in                                                               
1986, then  Chief Justice Robinowitz  wrote that although  he did                                                               
not seek  the task, he  did not  object to appointing  the public                                                               
members.    Mr. Sica  speculated  that  Chief Justice  Robinowitz                                                               
realized  that  in   his  position  he  was   probably  the  most                                                               
impartial, and  he understood the  need to be  the one to  do the                                                               
appointing.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:05:02 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  withdrew  Conceptual Amendment  1,  in                                                               
view of  the arguments  made against  it.  He  said he  would not                                                               
offer the other amendment.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG, regarding the  previous comment on Rule                                                               
46, noted that appointments by  the governor are made pursuant to                                                               
AS 39.05.080, which  states:  "Except as otherwise  provided in a                                                               
law relating to the positions  or memberships on a specific board                                                               
or commission, appointment  to a position or  membership shall be                                                               
made in the following manner:"   Representative Gruenberg stated,                                                               
"This  would  be  an  exception  in  that,  because  this  is  AS                                                               
39.25.060, so I do not believe it would violate Rule 46."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:06:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  directed attention to language  on page 2,                                                               
line 15, which read:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
               (3) lobby, employ, or assist a lobbyist.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON reminded  the committee  that at  the last                                                               
hearing he had  suggested inserting "for compensation".   He said                                                               
he wants  to avoid  "an ethical  charge against  somebody because                                                               
they  work together  on something  else and  could be  considered                                                               
assisting a lobbyist  when it had nothing to do  with lobbying or                                                               
they weren't being employed by a lobbyist."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:07:42 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  moved to adopt  Amendment 2, labeled R.1,  which read                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 15:                                                                                                           
          Delete ", employ, or assist"                                                                                          
          Insert "or directly employ"                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  objected  for discussion  purposes.    He                                                               
questioned the word "directly".                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:08:22 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FORD said  Representative Seaton  has pointed  out an  issue                                                               
that should be resolved by  the committee.  He recommended adding                                                               
"for  compensation" after  the  word "lobbyist"  on  line 15  [in                                                               
Section 3, paragraph (3)].                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:09:11 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN withdrew Amendment 2.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:09:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  moved to adopt Conceptual  Amendment 3, as                                                               
follows:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 15:                                                                                                           
          Following "lobbyist"                                                                                                  
          Insert "for compensation"                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:09:36 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON objected.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON,  in  response to  Representative  Wilson,                                                               
said "for compensation" would modify "assist a lobbyist".                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:11:28 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO directed  attention to  paragraphs (1)  and                                                               
(2),   preceding  the   language  in   Conceptual  Amendment   3.                                                               
Paragraph (1) would  prohibit a board member  and board employees                                                               
and  contractors from  holding  a campaign  for elective  office.                                                               
Representative Gatto  asked if that  means they could not  help a                                                               
legislator in his/her campaign.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FORD said  he  thinks a  reasonable  interpretation of  that                                                               
language is that the member  could assist a legislator in his/her                                                               
campaign but could not run for office him/herself.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FORD,   in  response  to   Representative  Gatto,   said  he                                                               
interprets   Conceptual  Amendment   3  to   mean  the   proposed                                                               
compensation  language would  apply only  to the  assisting of  a                                                               
lobbyist.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:13:16 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FORD, in  response to  Representative P.  Wilson, reiterated                                                               
his understanding  that under Conceptual Amendment  3, the member                                                               
could assist a  legislator in his/her campaign but  could not run                                                               
for office him/herself.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:14:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG objected to  Conceptual Amendment 3.  He                                                               
stated:                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     There  are only  ...  five people  in  the whole  state                                                                    
     government  involved in  this,  and  they're acting  as                                                                    
     quasi-judicial people in very  important respects.  For                                                                    
     most  of the  time, they're  acting as  quasi-appellate                                                                    
     people  on  the  board,  and  they  would  conduct  the                                                                    
     hearings  themselves   for  the   governor,  lieutenant                                                                    
     governor, and  attorney general.   And  whether they're                                                                    
     assisting  the  lobbyist  for compensation  or  not,  I                                                                    
     think  it avoids  the appearance  of an  impropriety in                                                                    
     either case,  and I would  hope we don't just  limit it                                                                    
     for compensation, because that  will provide a loophole                                                                    
     for somebody to say, "I'm  delighted to assist you, you                                                                    
     just can't pay me."   And I think quasi-judicial people                                                                    
     should stay away from that.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:15:20 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON moved an  amendment to Conceptual Amendment                                                               
3, to  move "employ or assist  a lobbyist for compensation"  to a                                                               
new [paragraph]  4, to  treat it as  "another thought  other than                                                               
lobbying itself."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:15:58 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  objected to  the proposed  amendment to                                                               
Amendment 3 for discussion purposes.   He said he thinks the term                                                               
"employ"  implies there  is a  contract under  which a  person is                                                               
paid for services rendered.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:16:40 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON said  he  believes there  is a  difference                                                               
between lobbying and employing a lobbyist.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  suggested that  Representative  Seaton                                                               
may  wish  to  separate  the   language  into  three  categories:                                                               
"lobby", "employ",  and "assist  a lobbyist".   He said  he would                                                               
not object to that.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:17:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P.  WILSON objected  to the proposed  amendment to                                                               
Conceptual Amendment 3.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON,  in response to Representative  P. Wilson,                                                               
clarified that  his intent is to  have the language moved  into a                                                               
new paragraph 4, not into Section 4.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON said that makes a difference to her.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG  maintained   his  objection   to  the                                                               
proposed amendment to  Conceptual Amendment 3.  He  said he would                                                               
not object  if Representative Seaton  were willing to  accept his                                                               
aforementioned proposal to further separate the terms.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:19:06 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he would  accept that amendment to the                                                               
proposed amendment to Conceptual Amendment 3.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
[The amendment to the proposed  amendment to Conceptual Amendment                                                               
3 was treated as adopted.]                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  removed his  objection to  the proposed                                                               
amendment, as amended, to Conceptual Amendment 3.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN announced that the  proposed amendment, as amended, to                                                               
Conceptual Amendment 3, was adopted.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:20:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  maintained his objection  to Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  3, as  amended.   He reiterated  his opinion  that the                                                               
members of  the board serve  quasi-judicial positions  and should                                                               
not  be  assisting lobbyists,  whether  or  not  they do  so  for                                                               
compensation.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. SICA suggested it would be  helpful for the committee to look                                                               
at the definition under AS 24.45.171(11), which read as follows:                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     (11) "lobbyist" means a person who                                                                                         
          (A) is employed and receives payments, or who                                                                         
     contracts   for   economic   consideration,   including                                                                    
     reimbursement   for   reasonable  travel   and   living                                                                    
     expenses,  to  communicate   directly  or  through  the                                                                    
     person's  agents  with  any  public  official  for  the                                                                    
     purpose  of influencing  legislation or  administrative                                                                    
     action for more  than 10 hours in any  30-day period in                                                                    
     one calendar year; or                                                                                                      
          (B) represents oneself as engaging in the                                                                             
     influencing of legislative  or administrative action as                                                                    
     a business, occupation, or profession;                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. SICA  stated, "I  think if  someone holds a  door open  for a                                                               
lobbyist, they're  not assisting a lobbyist,  they're assisting a                                                               
person.  I think when we  talk about 'assist a lobbyist', we talk                                                               
about assisting them in this definition."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:22:50 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO suggested using  a term that encompasses not                                                               
just lobbyists,  but also  those "involved  in influencing."   He                                                               
said, "It's something for the committee  to look at before we get                                                               
ourselves in  the trap of  saying, 'Can't  do it for  a lobbyist,                                                               
but you're not  a lobbyist on the second week  because you didn't                                                               
meet those minimums.'"                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:24:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  suggested  using   the  term  "assist  in                                                               
lobbying".                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:24:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  moved to  adopt Amendment 2  to Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 3,  as amended, to  change "assist a lobbyist",  now in                                                               
the new paragraph 5, in Section 2  of the bill, to read:  "assist                                                               
in lobbying".                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:25:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG objected.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:25:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON,  in response to  Representative Gruenberg,                                                               
clarified that the  issue is not judicial  officers but personnel                                                               
board members, and the focus  of Section 3 is prohibitions, which                                                               
means under the  proposed Amendment 2 to  Conceptual Amendment 3,                                                               
as amended, the  board members would not be allowed  to assist in                                                               
lobbying.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:28:36 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  withdrew his objection to  the proposed                                                               
Amendment 2 to  Conceptual Amendment 3, as amended.   There being                                                               
no further objection, it was so ordered.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:28:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG withdrew  his  objection to  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 3, as amended.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  P.  WILSON  offered her  understanding  that  the                                                               
final result  of Conceptual  Amendment 3, as  amended, is  that a                                                               
board member cannot assist in lobbying for compensation.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVES GRUENBERG AND GATTO responded no.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON said she  thought the original amendment                                                               
added the words "for compensation".                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON responded as follows:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     That is correct, and we  solved that because it was the                                                                    
     act of lobbying that we're  taking out.  So, it doesn't                                                                    
     matter whether it's  for compensation or not  - you may                                                                    
     not assist in lobbying.  And  we get rid of the problem                                                                    
     of opening  the door for a  lobbyist as a person.   So,                                                                    
     ... this  was conceptual, because, of  course, "employ"                                                                    
     in number 4 is going to have to "employ a lobbyist".                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P.  WILSON reiterated that the  original amendment                                                               
used  the words  "for  compensation" and  those  words are  still                                                               
there.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  responded, "No,  I  removed  those in  my                                                               
amendment to the amendment."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:30:36 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG clarified  that  [paragraphs (3),  (4),                                                               
and (5)], under the proposed  Conceptual Amendment 3, as amended,                                                               
would read as follows:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
               (3) lobby                                                                                                        
               (4) employ a lobbyist                                                                                            
               (5) or assist in lobbying                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN  announced that  there  being  no further  objection,                                                               
Conceptual Amendment 3, [as amended], was adopted.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:31:03 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  directed  attention to  paragraph  (2)  of                                                               
Section 3, on page 2, line 14, which read as follows:                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
            (2) be an officer of a political party,                                                                             
     political committee, or group; or                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO indicated  that without specifying political                                                               
group, a board member would not  be allowed to be, for example, a                                                               
captain of a basketball team.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:31:59 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  [moved to adopt Conceptual  Amendment 4] as                                                               
follows:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 14:                                                                                                           
          Between "or" and "group"                                                                                              
          Insert "political"                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  objected.    He said  he  wants  to  make                                                               
certain the amendment is conceptual.  He removed his objection.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN announced that [Conceptual Amendment 4] was adopted.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:32:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he  cannot remember the exact word,                                                               
but an adjective is needed with the word "group".                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN  recommended that  issue  be  addressed in  the  next                                                               
committee of referral.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:33:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P.  WILSON moved to adopt  Conceptual Amendment 5,                                                               
to removed  the final "or"  from page 2,  line 14, and  insert it                                                               
between  the  new  paragraphs  (4)  and  (5).    There  being  no                                                               
objection, Conceptual Amendment 5 was adopted.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:34:12 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG indicated  a need  for a  letter to  be                                                               
drafted for  the House Judiciary Standing  Committee regarding an                                                               
"important point" raised previously by Representative Gatto.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN and  REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO indicated  that the  point                                                               
would  be remembered  by the  three  members of  the House  State                                                               
Affairs Standing  Committee who also  sit on the  House Judiciary                                                               
Standing Committee.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:34:38 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON moved to report  HB 348, as amended, out of                                                               
committee  with individual  recommendations and  the accompanying                                                               
fiscal  notes.   There  being  no  objection, CSHB  348(STA)  was                                                               
reported out of the House State Affairs Standing Committee.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 9:34:57 AM to 9:37:20 AM.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
         SB 194-MINORS: ALCOHOL VIOLATIONS/ I.D. CARDS                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:37:23 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN announced that the final  order of business was CS FOR                                                               
SENATE  BILL NO.  194(JUD),  "An Act  relating  to penalties  and                                                               
civil damages for certain alcohol violations."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:37:36 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHRISTINE  MARASIGAN, Staff,  Senator Kevin  Meyer, Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature,  introduced  SB  194  on behalf  of  Senator  Meyer,                                                               
sponsor.   She paraphrased the  sponsor statement, which  read as                                                               
follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     CSSB 194 increases civil damages from $1,000 to $1,500                                                                     
     for three alcohol violations.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
      1) Minors who knowingly enter or remain in premises                                                                       
     licensed to sell alcohol.                                                                                                  
     2) People  who purchase  or deliver alcohol  to persons                                                                    
     under the age of 21.                                                                                                       
     3) Persons with restrictions  on purchasing alcohol who                                                                    
     knowingly enter or remain on  premises licensed to sell                                                                    
     alcohol.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Additionally, CSSB  194 may also  require a  person who                                                                    
     is  under  21  years  of   age  and  convicted  of  the                                                                    
     aforementioned  offenses to  pay  for and  enroll in  a                                                                    
     juvenile  alcohol  safety  action  program  or  similar                                                                    
     education or treatment program if one is available.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Underage drinking  is a problem  in Alaska.   According                                                                    
     to  the State  of  Alaska's Plan  to  Reduce &  Prevent                                                                    
     Underage  Drinking (October  2009), 11  percent of  all                                                                    
     treatment  admissions for  alcohol abuse  in the  state                                                                    
     were  youth  aged 12-20.    There  are currently  2,133                                                                    
     alcohol restricted licenses issued in the state.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     An  increase  in  civil  damages  would  reinforce  the                                                                    
     message  to youth  that underage  drinking will  not be                                                                    
     tolerated.   The increased civil penalty  would also be                                                                    
     a financial  deterrent for  those who  purchase alcohol                                                                    
     for  minors  as well  as  adults  holding a  restricted                                                                    
     license who are tempted to purchase alcohol.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     Passing CSSC  194 will encourage licensees  to continue                                                                    
     their  enforcement of  underage and  restricted license                                                                    
     drinking  laws.    This  bill  will  also  serve  as  a                                                                    
     deterrent  to  underage  and  restricted  consumers  of                                                                    
     alcohol.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARASIGAN  said many underage  youths get their  alcohol from                                                               
adults.  She  said the increased civil penalty  would help offset                                                               
the  cost of  "tracking down  and pursuing  civil action  for the                                                               
licensees."    She  relayed that  licensees  like  this  program,                                                               
because  it  discourages  those  who  should  not  be  purchasing                                                               
alcohol from  even trying.   The proposed legislation  would help                                                               
enforce Alaska's laws while helping  the licensee protect his/her                                                               
license by discouraging  those under the legal  drinking age from                                                               
trying to acquire alcohol.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:42:35 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  MARASIGAN,  in  response   to  Representative  Seaton,  said                                                               
current law  addresses the  three situations  previously outlined                                                               
in  the   sponsor  statement;  the  proposed   legislation  would                                                               
increase the civil penalties for  occurrence of those situations.                                                               
She offered  an example of a  minor entering a bar  and trying to                                                               
get served alcohol,  and she said in that  instance, the licensee                                                               
could "take a civil action against" the minor.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  described  a  hypothetical  situation  in                                                               
which an adult buys alcohol from a  store and later gives it to a                                                               
minor.   He asked whether  - if it  is established in  a criminal                                                               
proceeding  that the  adult purchased  the alcohol  at a  certain                                                               
store  - the  licensee  of  that store,  based  on that  criminal                                                               
proceeding, could  "get a judgment  of $1,500" against  the adult                                                               
who bought the alcohol.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. MARASIGAN responded as follows:                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     This  is more  sort of  like an  on-site civil  penalty                                                                    
     that  people  try  to  enact.   I  can't  imagine  that                                                                    
     somebody would be following so  closely to every single                                                                    
     proceeding that  they would  track somebody  who bought                                                                    
     for a  minor in  a criminal proceeding,  because they'd                                                                    
     already be in  such big trouble that I  don't know that                                                                    
     anyone would then  end up going back  and then bringing                                                                    
     a civil [action], but it certainly is possible.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:46:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
OTHAL C.  MADDEN III,  Director of  Operations, Brown  Jug, Inc.,                                                               
testified in  support of SB  194.  He  said Brown Jug,  Inc., has                                                               
used the aforementioned civil penalty  statutes for over 10 years                                                               
to  prevent underage  drinking.   He said  the law  deters minors                                                               
from coming in the door to  make the purchase in the first place.                                                               
In  the  event  the  minor  does  come  in,  the  law  gives  the                                                               
establishment some means by which to  "go after him."  Mr. Madden                                                               
related that  when a Brown  Jug, Inc., employee is  successful in                                                               
collecting  a  civil  penalty from  a  minor,  the  establishment                                                               
awards that employee  a bonus of $270.  He  said Brown Jug, Inc.,                                                               
also offers the minor involved  an opportunity to wave [the civil                                                               
penalty]  by  completing  a two-day  alcohol  education  training                                                               
through  the  Crime  for Life  program  handled  through  Mothers                                                               
Against  Drunk  Driving  (MADD)   and  sexual  assault  awareness                                                               
training through Standing Together Against Rape (STAR).                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MADDEN  said one of  the great  aspects of the  civil penalty                                                               
program  is that  it gets  the  family involved  with the  minor.                                                               
Before the program, many families  never found out that the minor                                                               
had  been caught.   Now,  the family  gets a  letter in  the mail                                                               
saying  the family  owes  Brown Jug,  Inc.,  $1,000 for  "illegal                                                               
entry  into  the store,"  and  that  gets  the attention  of  the                                                               
family.   Mr.  Madden  said  since the  first  civil penalty  was                                                               
enacted in  1998, Brown  Jug, Inc.,  has pursued  actions against                                                               
over 2,000  minors who have  been caught.   He said  although the                                                               
company has not been successful  in collecting against all 2,000,                                                               
at  least the  process  has initiated  family  involvement.   Mr.                                                               
Madden  said Brown  Jug, Inc.,  has also  used the  civil penalty                                                               
program  to address  the  problem of  adults  buying alcohol  for                                                               
minors, and  to seek  civil damages against  the minors  who wait                                                               
outside to solicit adults to buy alcohol for them.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:49:23 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  asked if the  civil penalty has  been used                                                               
against "someone that is very much removed from your premises."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MADDEN  responded,   "There  may  have  been   a  couple  of                                                               
situations with  kegs over the  years, where the  police actually                                                               
let us know that  an adult had bought a keg  from us and provided                                                               
[it] to  minors, but [in] most  cases the licensee would  have no                                                               
idea  that that  ever occurred,  or that  those events  were ever                                                               
related to the business."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:50:44 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  expressed appreciation  for the  work that                                                               
Mr. Madden  has been doing  regarding these civil penalties.   He                                                               
opined that everything that is  done to stop underage drinking is                                                               
a benefit to the entire state.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:51:09 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR KEVIN MEYER,  Alaska State Legislature, as  sponsor of SB                                                               
194,  said related  city ordinance  was passed  by the  Anchorage                                                               
Assembly  in 1997,  and Fairbanks  adopted  a similar  ordinance.                                                               
The  aforementioned  statute followed  in  2003,  he said.    The                                                               
proposed legislation would  address the need to  raise the amount                                                               
of civil  damages, which have  not been raised since  the statute                                                               
was enacted.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:52:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P.  WILSON asked  if Senator Meyer  has considered                                                               
increasing  the  amount to  $2,000  for  people who  purchase  or                                                               
deliver alcohol to person under the age of 21.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MEYER responded that the  criminal penalty for adults who                                                               
supply alcohol  to minors  is effective.   He stated,  "The civil                                                               
side is handy  more for the kids  who are trying to buy  it."  He                                                               
explained that  sometimes when  Brown Jug,  Inc., gets  a minor's                                                               
identification and calls  the police, the police are  too busy to                                                               
do anything; however, the consequences  to the licensee are great                                                               
if they are caught selling alcohol to a minor.  He continued:                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     So,  ...  the  licensees  ... [are]  taking  action  on                                                                    
     behalf  of  the state  by  going  through civil  court,                                                                    
     because there  really isn't much  done on  the criminal                                                                    
     side for  the minors.   For  adults trying  to purchase                                                                    
     [for minors]  there ... [are] some  consequences on the                                                                    
     criminal  side and  whatever  we can  do  on the  civil                                                                    
     side.   So,  we're really  trying to  discourage adults                                                                    
     from even buying for the  kids, by ... [utilizing both]                                                                    
     the criminal and the civil side.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE P. WILSON explained  she is considering whether or                                                               
not other  businesses would have  more incentive to  get involved                                                               
if the fine was higher.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:55:11 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MEYER  concurred that there  are some places,  like Brown                                                               
Jug, Inc., that  have a reputation for catching  minors trying to                                                               
buy alcohol.   He said the Cabaret Hotel  Restaurant & Retailer's                                                               
Association (CHARR) will "take this  action" on behalf of smaller                                                               
organizations.     In  response  to  a   follow-up  question,  he                                                               
confirmed that CHARR has been  following through with quite a few                                                               
civil actions.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:56:51 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  noted  that   according  to  Mr.  Madden's                                                               
testimony, if the option for having  $700 waived if a minor takes                                                               
part  in one  of the  aforementioned programs  is used,  then the                                                               
establishment  only  gets  $300  of the  current  $1,000  amount.                                                               
Under the proposed bill, if the  option for having $700 waived is                                                               
taken advantage  of, then the  establishment would only  get $800                                                               
of the  $1,500.  He  asked Senator Meyer if  it is his  intent to                                                               
"just get the liquor store owner a higher award."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MEYER  reminded Representative Gatto that  that option is                                                               
the policy  of Brown  Jug, Inc.   He stated,  "Each establishment                                                               
has  kind   of  different  policies   and  costs   associated  in                                                               
implementing this program."                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:58:22 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  moved  to  report CSSB  194(JUD)  out  of                                                               
committee  with individual  recommendations and  the accompanying                                                               
fiscal  notes.   There  being  no  objection, CSSB  194(JUD)  was                                                               
reported out of the House State Affairs Standing Committee.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:59:03 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 9:59                                                                  
a.m.                                                                                                                            

Document Name Date/Time Subjects