Legislature(1999 - 2000)

04/08/1999 08:05 AM STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
       HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                                   
                   Arpil 8, 1999                                                                                                
                     8:05 a.m.                                                                                                  
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                                 
Representative Jeannette James, Chair                                                                                           
Representative John Coghill                                                                                                     
Representative Scott Ogan                                                                                                       
Representative Jim Whitaker                                                                                                     
Representative Bill Hudson                                                                                                      
Representative Beth Kerttula                                                                                                    
Representative Harold Smalley                                                                                                   
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                  
All members present                                                                                                             
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                              
CS FOR SENATE BILL 46(RLS)                                                                                                      
"An Act naming the Terry Miller Legislative Office Building."                                                                   
     - MOVED CSSB 46(RLS) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                      
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION 8                                                                                                       
Relating to the 2000 decennial United States census and to the                                                                  
development of redistricting data for use by the state in                                                                       
legislative redistricting.                                                                                                      
     - MOVED SJR 8 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                             
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION 3                                                                                                       
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska                                                               
relating to the repeal of regulations by the legislature.                                                                       
     - MOVED SJR 3 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                             
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION 26                                                                                                       
Relating to establishing maritime boundaries with Canada.                                                                       
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION 27                                                                                                       
Relating to the maritime boundary between Alaska and the former                                                                 
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.                                                                                            
     - MOVED CSHJR 27(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
* HOUSE BILL 144                                                                                                                
"An Act relating to access to public buildings or public facilities                                                             
by legislators and to audits of public buildings or public                                                                      
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
* HOUSE BILL 153                                                                                                                
"An Act relating to leave for certain state employees."                                                                         
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
(* First public hearing)                                                                                                        
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                                 
BILL: SB  46                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: NAMING THE CAPITAL SCHOOL BLDG                                                                                     
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) WARD, Miller, Taylor, Kelly Tim, Adams,                                                                  
Lincoln, Elton, Phillips, Green, Wilken, Parnell, Mackie, Leman,                                                                
Ellis, Kelly Pete, Hoffman, Donley                                                                                              
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 1/27/99       100     (S)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 1/27/99       100     (S)  STA                                                                                                 
 2/02/99               (S)  STA AT  3:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                                                                      
 2/11/99               (S)  STA AT  3:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                                                                      
 3/04/99               (S)  STA AT  3:45 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                                                                      
 3/09/99               (S)  STA AT  3:30 PM                                                                                     
 3/09/99               (S)  MOVED CS (STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                     
 3/09/99               (S)  MINUTE(STA)                                                                                         
 3/12/99       493     (S)  STA RPT  CS  5DP          NEW TITLE                                                                 
 3/12/99       493     (S)  DP: WARD, GREEN, PHILLIPS, ELTON,                                                                   
 3/12/99       493     (S)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (LAA)                                                                              
 3/23/99               (S)  RLS AT 10:50 AM FAHRENKAMP 203                                                                      
 3/26/99               (S)  RLS AT 11:35 AM FAHRENKAMP 203                                                                      
 3/26/99               (S)  MINUTE(RLS)                                                                                         
 3/29/99       720     (S)  RLS TO CALENDAR 3/29 CS   NEW TITLE                                                                 
 3/29/99       720     (S)  DP: TIM KELLY, MILLER, ELLIS, LEMAN,                                                                
 3/29/99       720     (S)  PEARCE                                                                                              
 3/29/99       720     (S)  PREVIOUS ZERO FN (LAA)                                                                              
 3/29/99       722     (S)  READ THE SECOND TIME                                                                                
 3/29/99       722     (S)  RLS  CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                                                                        
 3/29/99       722     (S)  ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN                                                                      
 3/29/99       722     (S)  READ THE THIRD TIME  CSSB 46(RLS)                                                                   
 3/29/99       722     (S)  COSPONSOR(S): MILLER, TIM KELLY,                                                                    
 3/29/99       722     (S)  ADAMS, LINCOLN, ELTON, PHILLIPS,                                                                    
 3/29/99       722     (S)  GREEN, WILKEN, PARNELL, MACKIE,                                                                     
 3/29/99       722     (S)  ELLIS, PETE KELLY, HOFFMAN, DONLEY                                                                  
 3/29/99       722     (S)  PASSED Y19 N- E1                                                                                    
 3/29/99       724     (S)  TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                  
 3/31/99       616     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 3/31/99       616     (H)  STA                                                                                                 
 4/08/99               (H)  STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                         
BILL: SJR  8                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: FAIR AND ACCURATE CENSUS                                                                                           
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) WARD                                                                                                     
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 2/19/99       308     (S)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 2/19/99       308     (S)  STA                                                                                                 
 3/04/99               (S)  STA AT  3:45 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                                                                      
 3/09/99               (S)  STA AT  3:30 PM                                                                                     
 3/09/99               (S)  MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                              
 3/09/99               (S)  MINUTE(STA)                                                                                         
 3/12/99       492     (S)  STA RPT  3DP 1NR 1DNP                                                                               
 3/12/99       492     (S)  DP: WARD, PHILLIPS, GREEN;                                                                          
 3/12/99       492     (S)  NR: WILKEN; DNP: ELTON                                                                              
 3/12/99       492     (S)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (GOV)                                                                              
 3/16/99               (S)  RLS AT 11:55 AM FAHRENKAMP 203                                                                      
 3/16/99               (S)  MINUTE(RLS)                                                                                         
 3/24/99       662     (S)  RULES TO CALENDAR  AND 1 OR 3/24/99                                                                 
 3/24/99       668     (S)  READ THE SECOND TIME                                                                                
 3/24/99       668     (S)  ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN                                                                      
 3/24/99       668     (S)  READ THE THIRD TIME  SJR 8                                                                          
 3/24/99       668     (S)  PASSED Y15 N5                                                                                       
 3/24/99       670     (S)  TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                  
 3/25/99       567     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 3/25/99       567     (H)  STA, JUD                                                                                            
 4/08/99               (H)  STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                         
 4/08/99               (H)  MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                              
BILL: SJR  3                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: REPEAL OF REGULATIONS BY LEGISLATURE                                                                               
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) TAYLOR, Kelly Tim, Phillips;                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE(S) Harris                                                                                                        
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 1/21/99        43     (S)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 1/21/99        44     (S)  STA, FIN                                                                                            
 1/28/99               (S)  STA AT  3:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                                                                      
 1/28/99               (S)  MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                              
 1/28/99               (S)  MINUTE(STA)                                                                                         
 2/01/99       125     (S)  STA RPT  3DP 1DNP                                                                                   
 2/01/99       125     (S)  DP: WARD, PHILLIPS, MACKIE;                                                                         
                            DNP: ELTON                                                                                          
 2/01/99       125     (S)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (S. STA)                                                                           
 2/05/99       164     (S)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (GOV)                                                                              
 2/11/99               (S)  FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                  
 2/11/99               (S)  HEARD AND HELD                                                                                      
 2/11/99               (S)  MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                         
 2/11/99       227     (S)  FISCAL NOTE (GOV)                                                                                   
 2/16/99               (S)  FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                  
 2/16/99               (S)  MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                              
 2/16/99               (S)  MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                         
 2/16/99       256     (S)  FIN RPT  2DP 4NR 1DNP                                                                               
 2/16/99       256     (S)  DP: TORGERSON, PARNELL; NR: GREEN,                                                                  
 2/16/99       256     (S)  PETE KELLY, WILKEN, LEMAN; DNP: ADAMS                                                               
 2/16/99       256     (S)  PREVIOUS FN (GOV)                                                                                   
 3/15/99               (S)  RLS AT  1:40 PM FAHRENKAMP 203                                                                      
 3/15/99               (S)  MINUTE(RLS)                                                                                         
 3/16/99       564     (S)  RULES TO CALENDAR AND 1 OR 3/16/99                                                                  
 3/16/99       570     (S)  READ THE SECOND TIME                                                                                
 3/16/99       571     (S)  ADVANCE TO THIRD READING FLD Y14 N4                                                                 
 3/16/99       571     (S)  THIRD READING 3/17 CALENDAR                                                                         
 3/17/99       585     (S)  READ THE THIRD TIME  SJR 3                                                                          
 3/17/99       585     (S)  COSPONSOR(S): TIM KELLY, PHILLIPS                                                                   
 3/17/99       586     (S)  PASSED Y14 N4 E2                                                                                    
 3/17/99       586     (S)  ELLIS  NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION                                                                    
 3/17/99       587     (S)  RECON TAKEN UP SAME DAY  UNAN CONSENT                                                               
 3/17/99       587     (S)  HELD ON RECONSIDERATION TO 3/23                                                                     
 3/23/99       650     (S)  BEFORE THE SENATE ON RECONSIDERATION                                                                
 3/23/99       651     (S)  PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y15 N5                                                                    
 3/23/99       652     (S)  TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                  
 3/24/99       544     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 3/24/99       544     (H)  STA, JUD, FINANCE                                                                                   
 3/24/99       562     (H)  CROSS SPONSOR(S): HARRIS                                                                            
 4/08/99               (H)  STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                         
BILL: HJR 26                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA                                                                               
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) COGHILL                                                                                          
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 3/10/99       410     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 3/10/99       410     (H)  WTR, STATE AFFAIRS                                                                                  
 3/30/99               (H)  WTR AT  5:30 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                         
 3/31/99               (H)  WTR AT  5:30 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                         
 4/06/99       661     (H)  WTR RPT  CS(WTR) 4DP 1NR                                                                            
 4/06/99       661     (H)  DP: GREEN, PHILLIPS, JOULE, BARNES;                                                                 
 4/06/99       661     (H)  NR: BERKOWITZ                                                                                       
 4/06/99       661     (H)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (H.WTR)                                                                            
 4/06/99       661     (H)  REFERRED TO STA                                                                                     
 4/08/99               (H)  STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                         
BILL: HJR 27                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: ALASKA/RUSSIA MARITIME BOUNDARY                                                                                    
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) COGHILL                                                                                          
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 3/10/99       410     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 3/10/99       410     (H)  WTR, STATE AFFAIRS                                                                                  
 3/30/99               (H)  WTR AT  5:30 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                         
 3/31/99               (H)  WTR AT  5:30 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                         
 4/01/99       648     (H)  WTR RPT 4DP 1NR                                                                                     
 4/01/99       648     (H)  DP: JOULE, GREEN, PHILLIPS, BARNES;                                                                 
 4/01/99       648     (H)  NR: BERKOWITZ                                                                                       
 4/01/99       648     (H)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (H.WTR)                                                                            
 4/01/99       648     (H)  REFERRED TO STATE AFFAIRS                                                                           
 4/08/99               (H)  STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                         
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                                
LINDA WILD                                                                                                                      
P.O. Box 20704                                                                                                                  
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
Telephone:  (907) 586-2330                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 46 and suggested a plaque,                                                                 
                     honoring the original Capital School, be                                                                   
                     placed on the building.                                                                                    
MARK HODGINS, Administrative Assistant                                                                                          
  to Senator Ward                                                                                                               
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 423                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
Telephone:  (907) 465-4522                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented SB 46 and SJR 8 on behalf of                                                                     
                     Senator Ward.                                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL                                                                                                     
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 416                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
Telephone:  (907) 465-3719                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented HJR 26 and HJR 27.                                                                               
VINCE O'SHEA, Captain                                                                                                           
United States Coast Guard                                                                                                       
P.O. Box 25517                                                                                                                  
Juneau, Alaska  99802                                                                                                           
Telephone:  (907) 463-2226                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on HJR 26 and HJR 27.                                                                 
SENATOR ROBIN TAYLOR                                                                                                            
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 30                                                                                                       
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
Telephone:  (907) 465-3873                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented SJR 3.                                                                                           
MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice Chairman                                                                                                  
State Department Watch                                                                                                          
P.O. Box 7981                                                                                                                   
Northridge, California  91327                                                                                                   
Telephone:  (818) 363-6210                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HJR 26 and stated                                                                  
                     support of HJR 27.                                                                                         
CARL OLSON, Chairman                                                                                                            
State Department Watch                                                                                                          
P.O. Box 65398                                                                                                                  
Washington, D.C.  20035                                                                                                         
Telephone:  (703) 276-3330                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HJR 26 and stated                                                                  
                     support of HJR 27.                                                                                         
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-21, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 001                                                                                                                      
CHAIR JEANNETTE JAMES called the House State Affairs Standing                                                                   
Committee meeting to order at 8:05 a.m.  Members present at the                                                                 
call to order were Representatives James, Coghill, Ogan, Whitaker,                                                              
and Smalley.  Representatives Kerttula and Hudson arrived at 8:10                                                               
and 8:17 a.m. respectively.                                                                                                     
SB 46 NAMING THE CAPITAL SCHOOL BLDG                                                                                            
CHAIR JAMES announced CSSB 46(RLS), "An Act naming the Terry Miller                                                             
Legislative Office Building," is before the committee.                                                                          
CHAIR JAMES called a brief at-ease at 8:06 a.m. to await the                                                                    
arrival of the sponsor's staff.  She called the committee back to                                                               
order at 8:07 a.m. to hear testimony.                                                                                           
Number 0032                                                                                                                     
LINDA WILD came before the committee.  She stated, for those of us                                                              
who live in the neighborhood and whose children attended Capital                                                                
School, Capital School will always be Capital School.  Ms. Wild has                                                             
lived close to the Capital School for approximately 25 years and                                                                
fought with others to keep the school open.                                                                                     
MS. WILD said she had talked to a couple of her neighbors and, of                                                               
course, they tended to feel the same way as she does about renaming                                                             
the building.  She noted that one of them suggested that it be                                                                  
named after someone who had lived in Juneau, such as Elizabeth                                                                  
Peratrovich who was an important leader in Native politics.  In                                                                 
fact, the school celebrated "Peratrovich Day."  Ms. Wild said she                                                               
knew and respected Terry Miller when he was a Senator and certainly                                                             
understands the legislature's desire to name something after him.                                                               
MS. WILD also spoke with Representative Kerttula's and Senator                                                                  
Elton's offices about putting up a memorial plaque that honors the                                                              
building as the original Capital School.  She noted that everyone                                                               
appeared to be receptive to that idea.                                                                                          
Number 071                                                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES said she understands Ms. Wild's concern.  She said she                                                              
agreed with the concept of putting up a plaque, however, that                                                                   
wouldn't necessarily have to be noted in the bill.                                                                              
MS. WILD agreed that it didn't have to be noted in the bill, the                                                                
question is just figuring out what the cost would be.  She                                                                      
mentioned that she has been talking with Senator Elton's office                                                                 
about the specific wording.                                                                                                     
CHAIR JAMES said that was a great idea.                                                                                         
Number 115                                                                                                                      
MARK HODGINS, Administrative Assistant, presented SB 46 on behalf                                                               
of Senator Ward.  He said SB 46 is a simple bill to rename the                                                                  
Capital School [to honor former Lieutenant Governor Terry Miller                                                                
and shall be known as the Terry Miller Building].                                                                               
Number 118                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved to report CSSB 46(RLS) out of committee                                                               
with individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal                                                                
note.  There being no objection, it was so ordered.                                                                             
SJR 8 FAIR AND ACCURATE CENSUS                                                                                                  
CHAIR JAMES announced SJR 8, Relating to the 2000 decennial United                                                              
States census and to the development of redistricting data for use                                                              
by the state in legislative redistricting, is before the committee.                                                             
Number 139                                                                                                                      
MARK HODGINS, Administrative Assistant, presented SJR 8 on behalf                                                               
of Senator Ward.  He explained SJR 8, relating to the census that's                                                             
coming up, asks for an actual nose-count rather than using                                                                      
statistical methods to determine how many people are in each                                                                    
district.  The problem with determining it by statistical methods                                                               
is that: there is a lot of room for speculation and error, there's                                                              
a lot of room for litigation and it dilutes the "one person, one                                                                
vote" concept.  He said this resolution is simply asking that                                                                   
Congress and the Bureau of Census have a count that's an actual                                                                 
enumerated count, or a nose-count.                                                                                              
CHAIR JAMES noted that Representative Kerttula was present.                                                                     
Number 175                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved to report SJR 8 out of committee with                                                                 
individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal note.                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY objected.  He asked if there would be a cost                                                             
attached to it for the nose-count.                                                                                              
CHAIR JAMES pointed out that it would only be a federal cost.                                                                   
There being no further objections, SJR 8 moved out of committee                                                                 
with individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal                                                                
SJR 3 REPEAL OF REGULATIONS BY LEGISLATURE                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES announced SJR 3, Proposing an amendment to the                                                                      
Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to the repeal of                                                                   
regulations by the legislature, is before the committee.                                                                        
Number 209                                                                                                                      
SENATOR ROBIN TAYLOR explained that SJR 3 gives the people of                                                                   
Alaska (possibly for the fourth time) an opportunity to provide the                                                             
legislature with the authority to repeal regulations passed by the                                                              
Administration through a simple resolution.  He noted that for                                                                  
approximately 18 years this legislature did have that authority.                                                                
However, a court decision around 1980 prevented the legislature                                                                 
from being able to use a simple resolution to repeal a regulation.                                                              
The court said, due to the separation of powers, and their                                                                      
interpretation of the constitution, that the legislature would have                                                             
to pass an actual bill to repeal a regulation.  He further stated,                                                              
"Any bill of course is subject to a gubernatorial veto and the                                                                  
governor will frequently veto such legislation so as to protect his                                                             
executive branch functionaries in the manner in which they've                                                                   
drafted the regulations. ... I also sit as Chairman of                                                                          
[Administrative] Reg. [Regulation] Review for this term and it is                                                               
incredible as we work through some of these attempts to change                                                                  
regulations, attempts to even provide the public with fair and                                                                  
unbiased hearing officers, I am amazed at the level of resistance                                                               
to even the slightest change in this process that is mounted by                                                                 
this Administration - it really is incredible.  It's for that                                                                   
reason, I bring the resolution before you, is I that think that the                                                             
system works very well in previous years."                                                                                      
SENATOR TAYLOR recalled former-Senator Bob Ziegler introduced two                                                               
resolutions to repeal regulations, possibly in 1978.  And the day                                                               
former-Senator Bob Ziegler introduced them, the "department" showed                                                             
up saying, "What's the problem, how can we work it out," and they                                                               
did.  Senator Taylor said that's how this system used to work, and                                                              
that's how it could work in the future.  If the public supports the                                                             
legislature in this matter, they will find that the most onerous                                                                
portions of state government are the application of regulations to                                                              
their lives.  And if the legislature can make those regulations                                                                 
more attuned to the legislative intent, the public will be more                                                                 
pleased with their government and they will understand it better.                                                               
The public will also know that the policy makers could quickly and                                                              
efficiently amend those regulations that they find onerous.                                                                     
Number 287                                                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES noted that she worked intently on figuring out a system                                                             
that would work, where it's less painful for the folks at home.                                                                 
She determined that you would need a hammer and we don't have one                                                               
as legislators - if we had one, they took it out of our hands.  She                                                             
mentioned that when she was Chairman of Administrative Regulation                                                               
Review they didn't have a hammer.                                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he was tempted to sing "If I Had a                                                                     
Hammer."  He remarked that he is a firsthand witness with the                                                                   
absolute resistance to any sort of change.  And, as he has                                                                      
mentioned before, the Administration is the fourth branch of                                                                    
government and the legislature has delegated to them the authority                                                              
to write regulations.  He said they are basically making law and                                                                
are not elected officials.                                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES pointed out that the problems with regulations are not                                                              
necessarily more or less onerous than they've ever been, it's been                                                              
a problem since the beginning of the Administrative Procedure Act                                                               
and it doesn't change with the administrations.                                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY stated, "Looking at the concept needs for a                                                              
hammer I would imagine some time back when, when the change                                                                     
occurred, I guess it was dependence upon who was wielding the                                                                   
hammer and the level of expertise of the hammer wielder and that's                                                              
probably where in lies my concern - would be the amount of                                                                      
expertise on behalf of the Senate and the House.  And I know we                                                                 
have a great deal of brain-power amongst our bodies but I would                                                                 
imagine that that's where in lies my concern - expertise with                                                                   
regard to regulations and regulatory change."                                                                                   
Number 362                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said, "It's been my observation that probably                                                             
it started getting more difficult on the Alaska public through the                                                              
regulatory process as the federal government got involved in our                                                                
business in Alaska.  That so much of what the Administration does                                                               
for the projects that we give them as legislators is really pretty                                                              
smooth and I think we've got a pretty good hammer on that - a                                                                   
pretty good control over that.  But the minute the federal                                                                      
government comes in, or the minute the court's - the courts have                                                                
become very activist -this is my own observation madam chair - that                                                             
those are the two areas that the courts' decisions and the activism                                                             
that went through the courts and the federal government because                                                                 
they now provide $1.5 billion of our money on an annual basis -                                                                 
have such an inordinate amount of pressure, if you will, through                                                                
the regulatory process - that agencies are simply the middleman.                                                                
The federal government sends the money into state, it goes to the                                                               
commissioner, the commissioner can't really do what he wants to do                                                              
with those moneys without taking into consideration of what the                                                                 
federal, you know the federal folks that have given him the money,                                                              
they said you either do it our way or we don't give you the money.                                                              
The Department of Labor is a prime example - [and the Department                                                                
of] Transportation is good example.  Many of the onerous                                                                        
regulations on small business are brought about by requirements                                                                 
through the Department of Labor to satisfy federal employee                                                                     
identification - those kinds of things. ... So it's probably timely                                                             
that we begin to ask the question as to whether or not we need more                                                             
power to try to give the people a fairer shake or some opportunity                                                              
to - not protest necessarily, but to at least try to influence                                                                  
onerous regulations (indisc.--fading) on their lives."                                                                          
Number 403                                                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES mentioned that she has said, "When federal money is                                                                 
handed to us, we should first of all see whether we want it, not                                                                
how we can get it," and that hasn't been the legislature's attitude                                                             
because we look forward to federal funding.  She agreed that the                                                                
federal government has influenced Alaska, but disagreed that that's                                                             
the total problem.  Chair James pointed out that this is the third                                                              
year that the legislature has been working on the airport                                                                       
regulations and that the federal government is still trying to cram                                                             
unreasonable requirements down our throat - and it has nothing to                                                               
do with federal funds.  Chair James said, "At this point in time,                                                               
we're still entering in a discussion.  If they finally draft the                                                                
regulations, we could change them then to fit this if this                                                                      
constitutional amendment were to pass."                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA pointed out another concern is with the                                                                 
120-day session.  She said, if we want to truly take over                                                                       
regulations we could do that, however she does not believe that it                                                              
could be done within the 120 days.  She added that the legislature                                                              
could also stop giving regulatory authority to divisions and                                                                    
agencies and we can take it back through that method.  She said she                                                             
thinks that you have to look at it in a more holistic sense and to                                                              
take over something that is sort of fundamental into the separation                                                             
of powers takes a lot more time and energy than we're giving                                                                    
ourselves.  If this happens, she hopes the legislative sessions                                                                 
will be extended.                                                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES mentioned that she had suggested creating a regulatory                                                              
agency in which that agency would write regulations for the                                                                     
legislature instead of the Administration, however, she ran into a                                                              
lot of resistance.  She said, "We're not talking about a lot of                                                                 
resolutions here, we're just talking about having that ability.                                                                 
And then if you assert that ability it gets them to the table,                                                                  
that's the issue."                                                                                                              
Number 464                                                                                                                      
SENATOR TAYLOR referred to Representative Smalley's comments on                                                                 
expertise, he said, "A perfect example of the problems that we're                                                               
facing in resistance by the Administration is the desire that we                                                                
have unbiased objective hearing officers - what a strange concept.                                                              
We kind of expect that in our court system, we would hope we have                                                               
it in our court system.  I now have the Department of Health and                                                                
Social Services, Jay Livey, on record twice ... where he's                                                                      
testified quite candidly that hearing officers are supposed to                                                                  
carry out department policy, they're not supposed to be there to                                                                
give you a fair hearing or anything else, they're supposed to carry                                                             
out department policy.  When I said, 'Well, you mean the rules and                                                              
regulations, the statute law that is published, and the regulation                                                              
that is published, that's what you mean isn't it Mr. Lively?'  He                                                               
said, 'Well no, sometimes we have department policy.'  Well sure he                                                             
has department policy, he has unwritten attitudes, unwritten                                                                    
policies that they are carrying out. ... And the whole issue we                                                                 
were discussing was regulations which set rates for Medicaid                                                                    
patients in the state of Alaska, and whether or not hospitals                                                                   
should be reimbursed.  We currently have appeals pending from                                                                   
hospitals that have been out there seven and eight years that have                                                              
had every hearing officer that has ever looked at them, even though                                                             
the hearing officer was employed by the department, the hearing                                                                 
officer said, 'No, these are valid claims they should be paid,' -                                                               
they just keep getting the revolving door on them.  It's that level                                                             
of arrogance that is just incredible, and to have people sit there                                                              
before you and say, 'No, this is our right, we'll do it any way we                                                              
feel like it, we don't have to publish our regs.'  So we're not                                                                 
talking about expertise."                                                                                                       
SENATOR TAYLOR continued, "I would submit that Representative                                                                   
Kerttula, you're absolutely correct, we don't have the time and I                                                               
would never suggest that this legislature try to take over the                                                                  
regulation drafting process.  When I took on this job, reluctantly                                                              
as I'm sure my good colleague Representative James did, I was                                                                   
overwhelmed.  I've always looked, as we all do - we get these                                                                   
little flyers that they send out to us and it says the Department                                                               
of Transportation is changing their regulations - we're going to do                                                             
this or - you see a lot of changes in the oil stuff through DNR                                                                 
[Department of Natural Resources], I had no idea what the real                                                                  
volume was in that stuff and I do now.  No, we don't have the time                                                              
and we don't have the expertise to sit here and review those.  In                                                               
fact, I think it takes quite a bit of work just on the part of the                                                              
Lieutenant Governor's Office just to go through and try and keep                                                                
track of what these folks are doing."                                                                                           
SENATOR TAYLOR further stated, "But for that rare instance, and I                                                               
really believe it is a rare instance, for that rare instance where                                                              
a regulation is so gross or so misapplied to the law, that someone                                                              
would feel motivated to put in a resolution to change it, I think                                                               
that opportunity needs to be there.  I don't recall, and I think                                                                
the record prior to the lawsuit that I was talking about, would                                                                 
indicate that the opportunity to use resolutions to change                                                                      
regulations was ever abused.  I'm not aware of that occurring                                                                   
because normally the last thing any one of us wants to do - is to                                                               
get down into the nitty gritty of how a law is being applied and                                                                
see if we can go in and play with that.  What we'd rather do is                                                                 
look at some kind of bigger issue, so I don't see it as something                                                               
that's going to be abused in the future, nor to do I see it as                                                                  
something that we couldn't accomplish very easily.  I don't imagine                                                             
that we're going to see more than two or three of these things a                                                                
session if it once passes because what will happen is the                                                                       
department's going to know you've got that authority when they go                                                               
to draft that regulation.  They may even read the law the                                                                       
regulation's supposed to be based on - what a refreshing change                                                                 
that would be.  So, again I think that our state survived very well                                                             
with that concept for some period of time.  I think it will survive                                                             
better in the future if we have that ability and I commend this to                                                              
CHAIR JAMES asked for a motion to move SJR 3 out of committee.                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN remarked no one from the Administration is here                                                             
to testify, let's move it.                                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES called a brief at-ease at 8:30 a.m. and called the                                                                  
meeting back to order at 8:38.                                                                                                  
Number 549                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL moved to report SJR 3 out of committee with                                                              
individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note.  There                                                             
being no objection, it was so ordered.                                                                                          
HJR 26-ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA                                                                                     
CHAIR JAMES announced HJR 26, Relating to establishing maritime                                                                 
boundaries with Canada, is before the committee [version a].                                                                    
Number 563                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL explained HJR 26 is going to be sent to the                                                              
President, Congress, and those who sit on the Foreign Relations                                                                 
Committee, requesting that Alaska be included in maritime boundary                                                              
settlements.  With regard to the maritime boundary in Alaska that                                                               
have not been settled, we're simply asking that they be settled and                                                             
that Alaska be in on the table as they settle them.  It gives a                                                                 
little bit of the history, it shows that there has been precedent                                                               
set in dealing with Canada already - in Nova Scotia, and how they                                                               
settled that there and that precedents still could be set within                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL stated that fishing problems have arisen in                                                              
Southeastern Alaska that need to be settled.  The agreement would                                                               
give a clear delineation on who has the authority, and in what                                                                  
area.  Some of the lines are confusing right now, so this is asking                                                             
that we begin that discussion and that Alaska be included in those                                                              
discussions.  He said it is a national issue but it's also an issue                                                             
with the State of Alaska - with its lands, fish and sovereignty of                                                              
the borders of Alaska.  That's the pure and simple of it.                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Representative Coghill to explain how                                                             
HJR 26 would interact, have any effect on the Pacific Salmon                                                                    
Treaty, or any other treaties.                                                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL explained that the only way that he knows                                                                
that it would actually be a factor is in the negotiation, then the                                                              
treaty would have to be taken into account.  He said we're not                                                                  
asking that a new boundary be set, necessarily.  It's only that the                                                             
negotiations be settled.  So it would have to take into account the                                                             
treaty, but at this point, this resolution doesn't affect that.                                                                 
Number 606                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked, "Are we currently in any                                                                         
negotiations on these maritime boundaries, is the Department of                                                                 
Fish and Game (indisc.) that and then the people who normally do a                                                              
negotiating involved with this right now."                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL noted that this is the reason for this                                                                   
resolution.  He said we're stalled between Canada and Alaska and                                                                
the United States on the whole issue.  We're not forcing the issue,                                                             
we're just requesting the issue be brought up.                                                                                  
Number 626                                                                                                                      
MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice President, State Department Watch, testified                                                              
from Northridge, California.  He said HJR 26 deals with the lack of                                                             
boundaries with Canada maritime issues.  The three areas where we                                                               
are lacking boundaries in are the Arctic at 141 degrees, in Dixon                                                               
Entrance and the area around the Pribilof Islands.  House Joint                                                                 
Resolution 26 requests entering into negotiations with the Canadian                                                             
government to create these maritime boundaries so these areas could                                                             
be utilized for fishing, and minerals and everything else - so                                                                  
they're not locked up.                                                                                                          
MR. SEIDENBERG, upon request, explained that State Department Watch                                                             
is a foreign policy watchdog organization.  He deferred to Carl                                                                 
Number 667                                                                                                                      
CARL OLSON, Chairman, State Department Watch, testified via                                                                     
teleconference from Washington, D.C.  He said State Department                                                                  
Watch is a foreign-policy watchdog group looking out for the                                                                    
American public's best interest.  The group believes it's in the                                                                
best interest to come to some agreement with the Canadians over                                                                 
maritime boundary.  He explained the resolution points out that the                                                             
U.S. has maritime boundary agreements with Mexico and Cuba - for 20                                                             
years.  Mr. Olson indicated that, for some reason, the State                                                                    
Department doesn't feel like having talks on this issue and the                                                                 
group think it's to the best interest to the state of Alaska, and                                                               
the country as a whole, to finally make some arrangements.                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if the State Department Watch, as an                                                                
organization has appealed to Congress or the Administrations to get                                                             
this action underway.                                                                                                           
MR. OLSON replied every group has the possibility of appealing to                                                               
the federal government whether it's through the executive or                                                                    
legislative branch, but as a small group, they do not have enough                                                               
horse power that a state would have.  He said that's why they felt                                                              
it more compelling to come to the State government of Alaska on                                                                 
this issue.                                                                                                                     
Number 713                                                                                                                      
CAPTAIN VINCE O'SHEA, United States Coast Guard, came before the                                                                
committee.  He said he works at the 17th Coast Guard District in                                                                
Juneau in fisheries law enforcement and has been in Alaska since                                                                
1996.  Prior to that he spent five years in Washington, D.C., at                                                                
Coast Guard Headquarters in which he worked with the State                                                                      
Department on various international fisheries issues.                                                                           
CAPTAIN O'SHEA informed the members that a tribunal was established                                                             
earlier in this century to answer the question (between Canada and                                                              
the United States), who owned the islands in the Dixon Entrance                                                                 
area.  He said the tribunal drew a line [referring to the map] at                                                               
point "V" and point "A," and that the islands north of that line                                                                
belonged to the United States, the islands south of that line                                                                   
belonged to Canada.  Captain O'Shea said the United States has                                                                  
taken a position that that answered the question about the land but                                                             
it didn't answer the question about the maritime boundary.  Canada                                                              
has taken the position that answered very clearly both questions,                                                               
not only where the land is but also where the water is.  The United                                                             
States has claimed an equidistant line between the two countries                                                                
[referring to the map] and what that's done is created an area                                                                  
called the disputed area - an area claimed by both countries.                                                                   
CAPTAIN O'SHEA noted that the United States and Canada basically                                                                
came up with an agreement in the late 1970s that said, "We both let                                                             
our fishers operate in that area under our own laws."  So, when                                                                 
Canada opens their fisheries, their guys can go in.  And when we                                                                
open our fisheries, our guys can go in here - except that in the                                                                
early 1980s Canada said -- and the condition was no new fisheries                                                               
would occur there.  Canada has maintained that we didn't have a                                                                 
trawl fishery in that area in a traditional sense, so they haven't                                                              
recognized the right of our trawlers to fish in there.  Over the                                                                
years Canada has been saying our trawlers can't operate and we say                                                              
they can.  Basically we agreed to disagree on that issue.                                                                       
Number 333                                                                                                                      
CAPTAIN O'SHEA stated that, "We kept a Coast Guard patrol boat down                                                             
there during the summertime just to make sure that served the U.S.                                                              
right of our fishers to operate in that area.  In fact last year we                                                             
had two patrol boats down there, and the year before we did as                                                                  
well.  Last year, though, because of the salmon problems, Canada                                                                
closed the disputed area to fishing and Alaska's Department of Fish                                                             
and Game, on the 2 July made a similar move, closed the disputed                                                                
area to U.S. trawl fisheries as well. ... From our perspective,                                                                 
last year was very peaceful and a quiet year."                                                                                  
CAPTAIN O'SHEA noted that the U.S. State Department has                                                                         
consistently had a position to Canada that, yes, we would like to                                                               
agree upon a maritime boundary - good boundaries make good                                                                      
neighbors.  He said he believes the reason why that issue hasn't                                                                
moved is possibly due to logic - or gaming issue.  If Canada had                                                                
some how taken this to a resolution body, as they did on the East                                                               
coast, ... the best they would get is a status quo, and the worst                                                               
they would get is the equidistant line, and most likely they would                                                              
get something in between.  Obviously if the U.S. does it, the worst                                                             
that would happen to us is we'd keep the status quo, but most                                                                   
likely we would gain something.  So, it's probably an issue just as                                                             
simple as that and the Canadians have been reluctant to bring this                                                              
issue forward.                                                                                                                  
CAPTAIN O'SHEA responded to Representative Kerttula's question,                                                                 
what does this has to do with the salmon treaty.  He said, "In my                                                               
experience, it's a potential sore point if the salmon treaty heats                                                              
up, it's an area that - very volatile political issue down in                                                                   
Canada.  It's also a volatile political [point] in Southeast Alaska                                                             
and each side knows that that's a potential stick it can use to                                                                 
poke the other side.  But the Coast Guard sees our view as to make                                                              
sure there are no incidents down there that throws things like the                                                              
salmon treaty off track."                                                                                                       
Number 781                                                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES asked, in looking at that solid line [referring to the                                                              
map], the one that was agreed upon...                                                                                           
CAPTAIN O'SHEA remarked - the "A-V" line.                                                                                       
CHAIR JAMES said she can't tell how close that line is to the land                                                              
but it looks like it's almost on the land.                                                                                      
CAPTAIN O'SHEA responded, yes it's very close.                                                                                  
CHAIR JAMES said it seems that we should be able to go around our                                                               
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied yes.                                                                                                     
CHAIR JAMES said it seems like we've got the edge on that one.                                                                  
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied yes, and that's frequently brought up by a                                                               
lot of different people in this argument.                                                                                       
Number 789                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said Dixon Entrance is an extremely rich and                                                              
vital area because there is a commingled fishery, much of which is                                                              
coming back to spawn in Alaska, and a great portion of which was                                                                
headed to British Columbia.  He further stated that, "I think this                                                              
is probably the flashpoint, or one of the flashpoint areas of that                                                              
U.S.-Canada treaty and when I saw this resolution my first concern                                                              
was that I would be cautious about doing anything to offset to what                                                             
appears to be a renewal of our negotiations on that treaty.  And I                                                              
don't think this would directly impact it madam chair, but it could                                                             
- it could mess up the current negotiations there and I'd like to                                                               
ask Captain O'Shea if he would have any comments on that."                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES clarified that he is talking about the salmon treaty.                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON replied yes, the U.S.-Canada treaty.  Every                                                               
time the season opens up you've got U.S., you've got Alaskan and                                                                
Canadian fishers out there that are really juggling against each                                                                
other there trying to knock each other out of the way, destroy                                                                  
their nets, the Canadians are quickly running for cover back into                                                               
U.S. waters and the Alaska fishermen are -- it's a boiling point                                                                
right now and that negotiation is ongoing separately as we speak,                                                               
although it hasn't had much action.  He said he thought Captain                                                                 
O'Shea might be more up-to-date as to what is going on in that                                                                  
Number 819                                                                                                                      
CAPTAIN O'SHEA replied that he doesn't have an official role in the                                                             
U.S.-Canada treaty negotiations but he does talk informally to some                                                             
of the folks who are working on that issue.  He said he believes                                                                
anything to do with Dixon Entrance always has a potential to impact                                                             
that process, depending upon how the Canadians see it at that                                                                   
particular time.  He further stated that, "On the other hand, I                                                                 
would point out that what this resolution [HJR 26] is calling for                                                               
is not anything that hasn't already been the policy of the U.S.                                                                 
State Department.  In other words, the U.S. State Department                                                                    
basically has said, 'Anytime you guys want to sit down and talk                                                                 
about this ... this boundary and get it resolved, we'd be happy to                                                              
do that.'  So it would send the signal to the State Department that                                                             
we're still here, we're still waiting.  But, depending on the                                                                   
status is of those U.S.-Canada treaties, it could be taken as a --                                                              
what we could do is give an excuse to somebody on the Canadian-side                                                             
to do something that they were planning on doing all along, that's                                                              
probably the biggest danger."                                                                                                   
CHAIR JAMES said it seems that it is going to be very difficult to                                                              
get a salmon treaty without having solved this.                                                                                 
CAPTAIN O'SHEA responded that he believes that the fish in the                                                                  
Dixon Entrance area is a small portion of the whole thing, and as                                                               
Representative Hudson pointed out, they're in a migratory mode.  He                                                             
said his understanding of the salmon treaty is coming from                                                                      
calculations back at the stream of origin, then trying to come up                                                               
with a sharing scheme relative to the escapements that they're                                                                  
trying to get up those various streams.                                                                                         
Number 847                                                                                                                      
CAPTAIN O'SHEA noted from a Coast Guard standpoint, the biggest                                                                 
issue we have is the trawler issue, whether or not they will let                                                                
our trawlers go down there.  It's been something that we've been                                                                
able to live with over the years.  He said he believes that it is                                                               
not that closely linked that they couldn't solve -- they have                                                                   
adjustments and calculations within the salmon treaty numbers of                                                                
stocks that would allow them to get an acceptable agreement without                                                             
necessarily bringing this to closure.                                                                                           
CHAIR JAMES remarked that the United States has a number of                                                                     
disputes with Canada regarding various issues.  One of the things                                                               
in our TEA-21 [Transportation Efficiency Act for the 21 century]                                                                
that we had this year, is that part of that money is supposed to be                                                             
there to try to help us make the border crossings from Canada to                                                                
the U.S. without dispute.  It seems that the more cooperation we                                                                
could get between us, that the better off we'd be in the long term.                                                             
She said, "We ought to eat our way through these disputes instead                                                               
of having this continual..."                                                                                                    
TAPE 99-21, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 001                                                                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES continued, "...I'd like to be able to call those                                                                    
Canadians my friend and I think that's very important that we do                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL stated that it is true, we are the closest                                                               
and most effected by our relationship with Canada.  Therefore, it                                                               
is imperative that Alaska is involved in any of the negotiations,                                                               
and this resolution [HJR 26] calls for it, and it calls for a                                                                   
boundary to be set up.  He said, "And I think that if Canada sees                                                               
the legislature appealing for that, that would give them heart that                                                             
we are in fact trying to settle the maritime boundary.  The salmon                                                              
treaty, notwithstanding, is a separate issue but it's also part of                                                              
the negotiation of friendship.  And so, this is just a move, I                                                                  
think in a very diplomatic way saying Alaska is really interested                                                               
in making sure that we have clear lines so that were settled on                                                                 
that issue.  So, I'd respectively ask to move this resolution."                                                                 
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Representative Coghill if he had                                                                  
received a position from the Department of Fish and Game or the                                                                 
U.S. State Department about how they feel about this resolution.                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL replied no.                                                                                              
Number 052                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said, "I really want to agree with you that                                                               
we need to resolve our boundary disputes, not only here but                                                                     
certainly up to - in the Arctic ... not only with Canada, but also                                                              
with Russia ... as well.  My only reluctance, I guess, and I would                                                              
like to do a little checking before I personally sign-off on this                                                               
measure ... would be to talk with David Benton or somebody down at                                                              
the Department of Fish and Game.  We have such a tremendous economy                                                             
to the fishermen out of Ketchikan and Southeastern Alaska that, if                                                              
anything we did, however innocently of this nature that would                                                                   
interrupt our inner you know -- right now, for the very first time                                                              
I'm told that there appears to be some momentum in renegotiating                                                                
that U.S.-Canada treaty we're finding some conclusion.  As you                                                                  
know, we've had terrible consequences as a result of not having a                                                               
settlement with the Canadians - they blockaded our ships down                                                                   
there, they cost us millions of dollars in fairs, and things of                                                                 
that nature.  And it just did damage the relationship with Alaska                                                               
and our Province - Canada and British Columbia particularly.  So,                                                               
for me at any rate, I would like the courtesy of, or even have                                                                  
maybe the committee staff or somebody to ask somebody who is                                                                    
negotiating in behalf of Alaska fishermen to come before the                                                                    
committee and speak about that. ... And I wouldn't feel comfortable                                                             
in passing it out of committee until I at least know that our                                                                   
action wasn't harming the potential livelihood of, you know, of our                                                             
fellow Southeasterners."                                                                                                        
CHAIR JAMES stated that their absence is distressing, why aren't                                                                
they here to testify.  She asked Representative Hudson to contact                                                               
Number 133                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL noted that the Alaska Trawlers Association                                                               
supports HJR 26.  He emphasized that this is not to Alaska that we                                                              
are appealing, but it is to the federal government to even begin                                                                
the negotiation on a maritime boundary.  He said he doesn't feel                                                                
that that would have any adverse effect on even our fish and game                                                               
management - so much to upset a treaty agreement.  Representative                                                               
Coghill said, "So, whereas I understand your objection, this really                                                             
is kind of out of their purview."                                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said she tends to agree with Representative Coghill on                                                              
that issue because a line, between those two lines, should be drawn                                                             
and that a lot of dispute would be gone if we did that.  The fish                                                               
would probably be divided similarly to what the collection of the                                                               
fish is at this time, but the battle would be gone.                                                                             
CHAIR JAMES announced that HJR 26 would be held over until next                                                                 
HJR 27-ALASKA/RUSSIA MARITIME BOUNDARY                                                                                          
CHAIR JAMES announced HJR 27, Relating to the maritime boundary                                                                 
between Alaska and the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,                                                              
is before the committee.  She noted HJR 27 is similar to HJR 26,                                                                
but is a different location.                                                                                                    
Number 172                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL said he distributed suggested                                                                       
amendments that were suggested by Representative Berkowitz which                                                                
made it more diplomatic in his view.  He noted that there has been                                                              
some dispute over the spelling of Wrangell.                                                                                     
     Page 1, line 9, changes the spelling of Wrangel to Wrangell.                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL referred to page 2, line 26, and instructed                                                              
the members to delete "failed to" and insert the word "not."                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL explained there hasn't been negotiation                                                                  
between Russia and America on this.  He emphasized one of the                                                                   
things that the legislature is asking in this resolution is that                                                                
Alaska be involved it.  He added, "But there has been a failure,                                                                
and they did not in fact ratify it from the Russian side."                                                                      
CHAIR JAMES asked if a "d" should to be added to the word approve.                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL replied yes.  [The following has been                                                                    
     WHEREAS the U.S.S.R. and its successor, Russia, have not                                                                   
     approved the proposed treaty agreement, and the agreement has                                                              
     not been put into force as a treaty; and                                                                                   
Number 215                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL also instructed the members to delete lines                                                              
6 thru 8, page 3, which dealt with a particular secretary of state                                                              
that is no longer there.  That was also a recommendation by                                                                     
Representative Berkowitz.  Delete:                                                                                              
     WHEREAS the authority of the Secretary of State to establish                                                               
     on his own a maritime boundary that has implications for land                                                              
     territory, seabed jurisdiction, sovereignty, and Alaska                                                                    
     property raises questions of constitutionality and personal                                                                
     culpability; and                                                                                                           
On page 3, delete lines 14 thru 30 and insert the following                                                                     
     BE IT RESOLVED by the Alaska State Legislature that, because                                                               
     the proposed United States - U.S.S.R. maritime Boundary                                                                    
     Agreement has not been put into force, negotiations for the                                                                
     proposed treaty should include participation by the State of                                                               
     Alaska, and terms in a new proposed treaty regarding Alaska's                                                              
     territory, sovereignty, or property should involve                                                                         
     representatives of the State of Alaska; and be it                                                                          
     FURTHER RESOLVED that the Alaska State Legislature considers                                                               
     participation of the State of Alaska to be essential in a [to                                                              
     the] validity of the executive agreement, requests the United                                                              
     States Department of State to report any and all acts and                                                                  
     directives regarding implementation of the executive                                                                       
     agreement, and respectfully requests the Governor and the                                                                  
     Attorney General of Alaska to investigate whether any actions                                                              
     in this matter are not consistent with law and to report on                                                                
     their findings to the Legislature prior to the next regular                                                                
     session; and be it                                                                                                         
     FURTHER RESOLVE[D] that the Alaska State Legislature urges the                                                             
     Alaska delegation in the United States Congress to promote and                                                             
     pursue the views expressed in this resolution, especially the                                                              
     need for Alaska representation in negotiations over setting a                                                              
     maritime boundary between the state and eastern Russia;                                                                    
Number 264                                                                                                                      
On page 4, delete line 1 and insert:                                                                                            
     maritime boundary between Alaska and eastern Russia is a                                                                   
     constitutional issue of states' rights and                                                                                 
Number 275                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to adopt the proposed                                                                       
amendment.  There being no objection, it was so ordered.                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL pointed out that HJR 27 is an important                                                                  
resolution that brings to light the need to establish/settle                                                                    
maritime boundaries between Russia and Alaska.  Due to the change                                                               
in the U.S.S.R. to Russia, that was never ratified and is still a                                                               
big question.  He noted that Alaska is directly affected by it in                                                               
a variety of different ways: in the fishing area, in some of the                                                                
lands that will be involved which include some of the islands that                                                              
are in the Chukchi Sea.  Those issues have yet to be resolved.                                                                  
House Joint Resolution 27 states that Alaska be part of that                                                                    
negotiation and it also requests those negotiations begin.                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA said she has the same types of concerns                                                                 
with HJR 27 as she had with HJR 26.  She said, "I would also like                                                               
to see it held over so that I can contact the State Department and                                                              
ask them what their position is.  Especially when we start talking                                                              
about Wrangell Island and some of the other ones.  In the sponsor                                                               
statement there's mention about when Wrangell was discovered in the                                                             
1800s.  But my understanding, and the research that I've seen, is                                                               
that those islands were discovered much earlier than that by                                                                    
indigenous people who lived there and that those people became                                                                  
Russian.  So I feel real strongly that, you know, failure of                                                                    
recognition of those people and their rights, and, you know,                                                                    
Deshnev [Russian explorer/early 1600s] after them really needs to                                                               
be taken into account here, and I'm not going to feel comfortable                                                               
on this unless we have some point of view from the State                                                                        
CHAIR JAMES remarked that if they negotiated a settlement of the                                                                
maritime boundary, those are the issues they would determine.  She                                                              
said she fails to understand why people don't want to get to a                                                                  
Number 335                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA said she is not unhappy to get to a                                                                     
conclusion.  She stated that she wants to know what the positions                                                               
are and how it actually affects us.  She emphasized that she                                                                    
dislikes talking about when the islands were discovered and                                                                     
completely disregarding 100s of years of history prior to that.                                                                 
Therefore, she thinks it an important point.                                                                                    
CHAIR JAMES noted that she has been studying that issue for a                                                                   
number of years and is aware of that.                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said he strongly supports HJR 27 and recalled                                                             
Chair James sponsoring similar legislation.  He stated that, "I do                                                              
think, unlike another area where we may have a conflicting or a                                                                 
dual treaty negotiations that could affect the livelihood of                                                                    
Alaskans, there's nothing like that involved in this particular                                                                 
settlement. ... This may be a time - because of the dissolution of                                                              
the old U.S.S.R. that changes the economic changes and the social                                                               
changes that are occurring up there may give our State Department                                                               
- and we may be stimulating them to go back into negotiations and                                                               
resolve these delicate lines up there because they're very                                                                      
important to resolve them: mineralogy - as you know,                                                                            
transportation, some fisheries, and things like that are really                                                                 
important."  He believed that HJR 27 is timely and should be                                                                    
CHAIR JAMES reiterated her agreement that it is timely,                                                                         
particularly since she has been working on getting a railroad from                                                              
Canada and to Russia and thinks we're getting closer and closer to                                                              
that reality.  But, in order to do that Alaska has to have a treaty                                                             
with Russia, and there's no better time to be negotiating maritime                                                              
boundaries when you're having to have another agreement that has a                                                              
very positive effect on Russia and on Alaska.                                                                                   
Number 381                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL pointed out that it has been brought to the                                                              
attention of the Department of Interior, Secretary Albright has                                                                 
been written to and there's been no response.  Representative                                                                   
Coghill said, in regard to that, we shouldn't wait for them to                                                                  
respond, we should ask them to initiate action.  To try to do that                                                              
before we send a resolution at this point, he believes, would be                                                                
futile.  So, HJR 27 gets the legislature to agree to a resolution                                                               
stating that we want to be at that negotiation and that the                                                                     
negotiation should begin, and the time is now.  So, to hold this up                                                             
would be very unfortunate.                                                                                                      
Number 401                                                                                                                      
CAPTAIN VINCE O'SHEA, United States Coast Guard, came before the                                                                
committee.  He noted the State Department has a position on this                                                                
which is the 1990 agreement that was initiated with the Russians                                                                
after ten years of negotiation.  That agreement was ratified by the                                                             
United States Senate in 1992.  He said the issue is, that in going                                                              
from the Soviet Union to the Russian Federation, the Russians have                                                              
failed to ratify that 1990 agreement.  So going back to the State                                                               
Department and saying, "We want you to solve the boundary line,"                                                                
quite frankly their going to say, "So do we."  Captain O'Shea                                                                   
indicated that the ball in many ways is in the Russian court on                                                                 
this.  He said there is an ongoing series of high-level meetings                                                                
involving then-Ambassador Thomas Pickering [Under Secretary of                                                                  
State], at the State Department.  He said Under Secretary of State                                                              
Pickering is sort of the United States point person on this - and                                                               
it's been going on for about three years now - a series of offers,                                                              
and counter offers back and forth.                                                                                              
CAPTAIN O'SHEA said President Yeltsin has not submitted this                                                                    
agreement to the Duma [equivalent of U.S. Senate] because he                                                                    
understands he does not have the votes to ratify the 1990                                                                       
agreement.  Captain O'Shea said Russia has agreed to provisionally                                                              
apply the 1990 agreement.  And, at times of the year Alaska has up                                                              
to 120 foreign factory trawlers that are fishing along this line                                                                
[referring to a map], and we have a continuous Coast Guard cutter                                                               
up there.  He said, "Quite frankly, whether the boundary gets to be                                                             
resolved or not, as long as there's fish there, you're not going to                                                             
get us out of the job of having to be up there."                                                                                
CAPTAIN O'SHEA continued, "What I'm saying to the Russian's credit,                                                             
quite frankly is they have agreed to abide operationally to the                                                                 
1990 line.  And, in fact, at the latest meeting that I was at in                                                                
Seattle, in January, they announced that they have established a                                                                
voluntary five-mile line on their side to keep those factory                                                                    
trawlers away from the line to avoid coming into our waters."  He                                                               
pointed out that the Bering Sea Fisheries Advisory Board advises                                                                
the State Department and the board consists of industry                                                                         
representatives (both from the state of Alaska and from the Seattle                                                             
area), factory trawler and fishing groups are part of the                                                                       
negotiated team which is dealing with that issue.  From his                                                                     
understanding, HJR 27 is consistent with a lot of the things that                                                               
are already taking place.                                                                                                       
Number 453                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Captain O'Shea what is the State                                                                  
Department's official position is on Wrangell Island.                                                                           
CAPTAIN O'SHEA said he can't respond to that because he is familiar                                                             
with the south area, and mostly with regard to fisheries in the                                                                 
Bering Sea.                                                                                                                     
CHAIR JAMES suggested Representative Kerttula conduct her                                                                       
investigation and present her findings on the House floor.                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA reiterated that her greatest concern is                                                                 
over the islands.  Our claims start to sound much like we aren't                                                                
taking into account the previous territorial claims of the                                                                      
indigenous people.  She said she will do the research and will                                                                  
provide that information.                                                                                                       
Number 474                                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON moved to report CSHJR 27(STA) out of                                                                      
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying zero                                                             
fiscal note.  There being no objection, it was so ordered.                                                                      
Number 492                                                                                                                      
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 9:21 a.m.                                                             

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