Legislature(2005 - 2006)CAPITOL 124
02/13/2006 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HCR29 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | HCR 29 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 13, 2006
1:11 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jay Ramras, Co-Chair
Representative Ralph Samuels, Co-Chair
Representative Jim Elkins
Representative Carl Gatto
Representative Gabrielle LeDoux
Representative Kurt Olson
Representative Paul Seaton
Representative Harry Crawford
Representative Mary Kapsner
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 29
Requesting the commissioner of natural resources to complete a
management plan for the area encompassing the Pebble copper
deposit and requesting a report to the legislature.
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HCR 29
SHORT TITLE: PEBBLE COPPER DEPOSIT MANAGEMENT PLAN
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) HAWKER
02/01/06 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/01/06 (H) RES
02/10/06 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/10/06 (H) Heard & Held
02/10/06 (H) MINUTE(RES)
02/13/06 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
ED FOGELS, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding HCR 29.
DICK MYLIUS, Acting Director
Division of Mining, Land and Water
Department of Natural Resources
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding HCR 29.
GLEN ALSWORTH, Mayor
Lake and Peninsula Borough
Port Alsworth, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
TREFON ANGASON, Contractor
Northern Dynasty
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of the process of
assessing the potential mining operations of Northern Dynasty.
GREG O'CLARAY, Commissioner
Department of Labor and Workforce Development
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
RALPH ANGASON, President
Alaska Peninsula Corporation
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
MR. SCOTT BRENNAN, Director
Alaskans for Responsible Mining
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
WASSILLIE ITUKSIK, President
Aleknagik Tribal Counsel
Aleknagik, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
LISA REIMERS
Iliamna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
EILEEN ZAISER
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
ELEANOR JOHNSON, Teacher
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
MARTHA ANELON
Iliamna, Alaska
Iliamna Pebble Development
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HCR 29.
REPRESENTATIVE CARL MOSES
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered a question about a bridge in
Nondalton, Alaska.
DAN OBERLATZ, Owner
Alaska Alpine Adventures
Lake Clark, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 29.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CO-CHAIR JAY RAMRAS called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:11:19 PM. Representatives
Crawford, LeDoux, Ramras, Seaton and Olson were present at the
call to order. Representatives Gatto, Samuels and Kapsner
arrived as the meeting was in progress. Representatives Mike
Hawker and Carl Moses were also present.
HCR 29-PEBBLE COPPER DEPOSIT MANAGEMENT PLAN
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS announced that the only order of business would
be HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 29, Requesting the
commissioner of natural resources to complete a management plan
for the area encompassing the Pebble copper deposit and
requesting a report to the legislature.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS questioned the fiscal note for HCR 29 and asked
for clarification from the Department of Natural Resources.
ED FOGELS, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Natural Resources
(DNR), said he did not have it.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he was embarrassed because he had clearly
asked for it.
1:15:07 PM
MR. FOGELS said DNR is mandated to be the coordinating agency
for large mine projects. There is a large projects group within
DNR that coordinates all state agencies that are involved in
permitting large mine projects. The agencies include the
Department of Environmental Conservation, DNR, Alaska Department
of Fish & Game, Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities, Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic
Development, and Department of Law. He said there is a core
group of state officials that have been working on large mine
projects for many years. He spoke of mines that the group has
worked on. He said the group is a huge body of expertise with
advanced degrees and experience. A typical large mine project,
such as Pogo, will take about 50 state and federal permits, and
it is a huge job to coordinate the permits. The permits cover a
range of issues, including ensuring that reclamation money is
set aside, structures are technically sound, air quality is
maintained, waste is disposed properly, and much more. An
application for such a project may take up several bookshelves.
1:18:19 PM
MR. FOGELS said the mining team is in charge of permitting,
enforcement, monitoring and compliance. He added that federal
permits typically require an Environmental Impact Statement
(EIS), and the state has learned how to dovetail with that
process. There are at least two rounds of public meetings and
three rounds of public involvement in a typical EIS process,
including data gathering and alternative suggestions. The
public is noticed after the alternatives are presented and
analyzed. A draft EIS is produced and put out for public
notice. It is often thousands of pages long, and permits are
not usually written until that phase is over. He envisions that
this process would be followed for the Pebble mine, and it would
be a multiple-year process.
1:21:24 PM
DICK MYLIUS, Acting Director, Division of Mining, Land and
Water, Department of Natural Resources, said the planning
process begins with public meetings for identifying issues and
concerns, which is similar to the scoping process of an EIS.
The second step is collecting data based on issues that were
uncovered. He said he envisions using the data collection that
will be used as part of both the large mine and EIS process, "so
we don't envision a major data collection effort just for the
land use plan." He said the next step is developing plan
alternatives with some sort of public involvement, which is not
always public meetings. The preferred alternative is then
chosen, the draft plan is formulated, and public review begins.
Public meetings may be held, and then a final plan is adopted
that reflects changes from the public comment period. The plan
can be appealed to the commissioner and finally to court. One
land use plan has been appealed to the court level, he said.
1:23:51 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked about the $400,000 fiscal note.
MR. MYLIUS said the process would be run concurrently and a
separate document would be produced. He said DNR does not do a
land use plan as part of the large mine process. The National
Environmental Policy Act of 1969 process "is a very long
detailed document, and this would more summarize a lot of that
information, or compile into kind of one planning document, and
we'd have to give separate public-the process would be combined
with this but we would have to address public comments separate
from this-or maybe not necessarily separate, but there would be
different issues the public would raise. For example, we might
get into-the plan might address more of some of the uses on some
of the adjacent land that may not actually get addressed in the
EIS in as great a detail...It's going to be a separate public
commenting process. It will occur concurrently but we'll have
to respond to all those comments coming specific to the plan,
and one of the reasons for the fiscal note, is that we envision,
with this process in particular, that it would be a fairly
contentious process and we'd get an awful lot of public comments
we would need to address through the whole process."
1:25:42 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said, "This is where you've lost me." He said
he wants to understand the fiscal note, and he asked for a side-
by-side comparison of the two processes to be faxed to his
office in the next hour.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked about the last lines of HCR 29
regarding the commissioner's conclusion on the appropriateness
of classifying the area for mineral development. He asked what
the alternative classifications may be. "If we would go through
a land use planning process that reclassifies this mining
district for something else, and we have permitted and
encouraged mining claims and expenditures to delineate that
amount, are we looking at a takings claim?" He mentioned the
coal bed methane leases in the Homer area, where the state had
to pay money based on potential, recoverable resources.
MR. MYLIUS said generally management plans do not end in
wholesale reclassifications. Area plans are the broad level of
planning, he said, and they deal with lands of one to fifteen
million acres, and lay out the general management intent. He
said the Bristol Bay Area Plan was revised last year, and a
large part of the claims area is in designated minerals. A
management plan is a step-down that is more focused on a smaller
area and gets into greater detail. He noted that as a general
rule, a management plan will not change the overall intent of
the area plan, so "we don't envision, through a management plan,
that we would do a wholesale reclassification." He said even if
DNR does do a wholesale reclassification, all state land is open
to minerals under state law unless it is specifically closed by
the legislature. He said even if the area is classified as
recreation, it is still, under statute, open to mineral entry.
He added that the commissioner can only close up to 640 acres of
land from mineral entry, "and this is obviously a lot larger
than 640 acres." He said reclassification might create more
restrictions on how the area is mined, but there could not be a
prohibition on mining. Regarding the takings issue, "there are
valid mining claims out there, so no matter what we did through
land use planning, or even no matter what the legislature did,
there are still valid existing mining claims there, and even if
we closed the area to mineral entry, any mineral closing order
done by either DNR or even by the legislature is always subject
to valid existing rights, and so the existing mining claims
would be considered a valid existing right." DNR could not
prohibit any development of the mining claims, but it could make
administrative restrictions. He said the legislature would have
the authority to take away the mining rights, but there might be
a takings claim against it. He added that the state actually
leased an oil and gas area in Kachemak Bay, and the legislature
closed it and a takings claim was "advanced".
1:31:43 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS reminded DNR that he wants a side-by-side
explanation.
1:32:44 PM
GLEN ALSWORTH, Mayor, Lake and Peninsula Borough, said the
people in his borough depend on clean water and good fish and
are not willing to sacrifice that, "but I come personally from
the stance that development and environment can coexist if it's
done right." He said he does not "buy into no-net-loss," and he
wants to "buy into net gain." He said, "We can enhance and come
out ahead whenever we do projects." He said he has been very
pleased to experience "the largest public process" that he has
ever been involved in, regarding the Pebble mine proposal. He
added that he has never seen any agency or any entity come in
with such an incredible process of public involvement. He said
his community on Lake Clark has had several meetings, and he
really appreciates that. He said his villages are either going
to go to work or die. The long-term effect of no economic
opportunity creates hopelessness, helplessness and depression.
He noted that people aren't worried about where to spend next
year's vacation, they are trying to figure out how to pay the
sewer bill. He said he is not saying that mining is the answer,
"I am saying that we need to allow the state to allow economic
development in some form or another in our area." "If we deny
this, our villages will continue to die." He said school
enrollment has declined due to an out migration.
1:36:20 PM
MR. ALSWORTH said not to change operating rules midstream when
projects come along. He flies to Russia often, and it is
difficult to do business there because there is no set standard.
The process is important no matter what the outcome. There are
safeguards and foresight so when the facts are there residents
can make decisions on supporting or not supporting the project.
1:37:49 PM
MR. ALSWORTH said he grew up in Port Alsworth and the community
has grown from 13 people to over 100 people in 50 years. He
said there are 7 people on the borough assembly representing
1,600 to 1,700 people. He said the next meeting with the full
assembly will be on February 21, and HCR 29 will be on the
agenda for discussion and public testimony. He said he will
report back to the committee after that.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if the members of the borough assembly
have any economic relationship with Northern Dynasty.
MR. ALSWORTH said he does not know about others, but he himself
has an air service that has flown Northern Dynasty and others.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if he is representing the borough or
just speaking as an individual.
MR. ALSWORTH said he is representing the borough today.
1:40:36 PM
TREFON ANGASON, Contractor, Northern Dynasty, said he serves on
several boards in the Bristol Bay region, and he has been
involved in Native issues. He noted that he came from a funeral
and borrowed a four-wheeler, which took him to the local fuel
depot where he needed money. He said communities are cash
dependent, "and it could be because we are a victim of our own
success." He said, "We have fought for years to improve the
quality of life, and...quality of life has come in." The need
for cash came with it. He said it was too cold to gather wood,
so people are dependent on oil. He has a contract with Northern
Dynasty who hired him to connect the company to the people and
to perform outreach to the communities. He said he doesn't
promote the mine "or anything else." He said he will withhold
his judgment until it can be shown that the mine can be
developed safely. He left his job as the vice president of the
Bristol Bay Native Corporation to work for Northern Dynasty
because the Kvichak River in the area has not had any
escapement. The Alaska Department of Fish & Game has designated
it as a river of concern, he said. Now Northern Dynasty is
doing studies and spending millions of dollars to find out what
happened to that fishery, because it will be blamed for the
problems. He said when he was on the Board of Fisheries he
tried to get the board "to at least examine [the Kvichak
River]," and there was just a cameo fly-over, but there was no
research-"no white-collared jackets running around the streams
in the dead of winter checking out the quality of the water and
the quality of the smolt the way that Northern Dynasty is doing
today." He said he thinks that Northern Dynasty should go
through the process, and the federal government has done well to
protect his interests. He added that the National Environmental
Policy Act of 1969 has prohibited poor mining operations.
1:46:10 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said the information is powerful and he
understands the negative consequences of either doing something
or nothing. He said he was aware that the Kvichak River did not
have a proper escapement, and that river needs to be assessed
instead of the "whole process."
1:48:19 PM
GREG O'CLARAY, Commissioner, Department of Labor and Workforce
Development, said he has been to a meeting with Northern Dynasty
officials and addressed the governor's desire to employ
Alaskans. He said the company was receptive and has gone out of
their way to hire Alaskans. He said there were 609 employees
and 75 percent were Alaska residents, many from the Bristol Bay
area. He said it is evident why his department is interested in
the mining project. People in the villages need to have some
hope. He noted that everyone is cash dependent, and
Representative Elkins operated a bar in Ketchikan and
understands cash. "Any employer that comes through the door
that's willing to invest in the local hire...is someone that I
think we owe, at least, a mutual trust to assist them in their
process," he said. He said he is not here for or against the
resolution. He stated that the resolution requires more delay,
and "any delay in bringing prosperity to that region to those
villagers, in my opinion, is not worth your time and effort."
This resolution has caused the creation of jobs for lobbyists.
He said not to put up a barrier to this company for the project.
1:52:41 PM
RALPH ANGASON, President, Alaska Peninsula Corporation, said the
Alaska Peninsula Corporation is the largest adjacent landowner
to the Pebble deposit and is made up of five villages. He
warned that there is a new threat to "our survival" and the
survival of the Bristol Bay region, and "that threat is in the
form of HCR 29. This resolution is nothing more than a
pandering to special interests that are rich and famous, and
powerful outside interests that do not have a stake in the
economic future and potential of the Pebble deposit." He said
the deposit is the richest in the world. Millions of dollars
have been spent by private interests in studying the deposit and
the mine feasibility, which includes studies of the biota and
culture of the area. "The private interests will use the land
only as a playground, proposed to re-study, re-plan, to lock up
all of it for their own personal pleasures," he stated. He said
that if HCR 29 is passed, the Bristol Bay Management Plan will
be meaningless. The millions of dollars in studies will be
wasted, and DNR will have to "carve Pebble from its foundation
as part of the Bristol Bay Plan's fabric to spend still more
money, which this time will be the state's money," he added.
The research for new sources of power will come to a screeching
halt, he said, and the very real potential economic development
to the region will become a pipedream. The state will waste
millions more on studies that could be used for roads and power
in the region, "so that the rich and powerful can come and play
for a few weeks a year, and leave, and leave nothing for our
shareholders to purchase fuel at over $5.00 a gallon." He said
youth will continue to leave the region because there is no
opportunity. "The problem, we are told, is that the Bristol Bay
Management Plan contemplates only 25 percent of the riches at
Pebble and are now believed to exist. To me that is not a
problem, it is an opportunity." He asked the committee to wait
and see if the mine is even possible under existing law and
technology. He said the Alaska Peninsula Corporation has taken
a wait and see approach. "We do not tear up its plan and carve
out a new regime for the purpose of locking up the riches DNR do
not think existed. Please give us a chance," he concluded.
1:56:50 PM
MR. SCOTT BRENNAN, Director, Alaskans for Responsible Mining,
said he has taught environmental science and resource policy.
He also wrote a textbook on the topic, giving him a unique
opportunity to study resource development proposals, projects,
and impacts-both positive and negative-all around the world.
Alaskans for Responsible Mining is a coalition of nonprofit
organizations, and its mission is to ensure that the mining
industry in Alaska meets the four criteria set forth by former
Governor Jay Hammond for responsible resource development. A
profitable, job-creating project may not necessarily benefit the
state, according the Governor Hammond, he said, and a project
must meet four criteria: it must be environmentally sound; it
must pay its own way; it must be supported by most Alaskans; and
it must provide the constitutionally mandated maximum benefit to
all Alaskans, not just to a select few. Mr. Brennan said he
supports HCR 29 because it exemplifies the oversight role of the
legislature and its role of providing the citizen voice. The
proposed Pebble mine is unparalleled in size, type and location,
he said, and it is only 10 percent of the total claims in the
area. The geochemistry poses a higher risk, he added.
2:01:06 PM
MR. BRENNAN said the Bristol Bay plan was updated a few years
ago, and, since then, there has been a huge increase in the size
of Pebble itself and the same increase in the surrounding area.
There are risks associated with open pit cyanide leach sulfide
mines, he warned. He read a quote written by Northern Dynasty:
"Unexpected environmental damage from spills, accidents, and
severe acts of nature, such as earthquakes, are risks which may
not be fully insurable and, if catastrophic, could mean the
total loss of shareholder equity." The state of Montana has
banned open pit cyanide leach mining of gold and silver, he
said, and in 1997, Wisconsin put a temporary hold on sulfide
mines until one had operated for 10 years without adverse
effects. He noted that the ban still stands because the state
has not been able to document a mine that fulfilled those
requirements. Mr. Brennan read from a Northern Dynasty report:
"Northern Dynasty's management may not be subject to U.S. legal
process. As Canadian citizens and residents, certain of
Northern Dynasty's directors and officers may not subject
themselves to U.S. legal proceedings." Recovery on judgments
issued by courts may be difficult or impossible, he said. Based
on those statements, he asked the legislature to play the
oversight role and ensure that the closest scrutiny is applied
to the Pebble project.
2:04:06 PM
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked who made up the membership of the group.
MR. BRENNAN said membership is public record and is made up of
19 organizations, including the Bristol Bay Alliance, Kachemak
Bay Conservation Society, Alaska Wilderness Recreation and
Tourism Association, Northern Center, Southeast Alaska
Conservation Council, Indigenous Environmental Network, Center
for Science and Public Participation, and others.
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked if the group supported any mines.
MR. BRENNAN said, "Absolutely." He said there are mines in
Alaska that are doing things well. He said his group points to
best practices, and it uses those as examples that could be
applied more broadly. He said the Red Dog mine does a great job
with Native hire; Greens Creek has an innovative reclamation
plan; and Fort Knox has an outstanding record of water quality
control. He noted that the group actively monitors mines by
pointing out best practices and areas where improvement is
called for.
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked Mr. Brennan if he would have sat in the
same chair and said we need more permitting when the Red Dog
mine was being developed, or any individual mine. "Do you think
the process in Alaska for permitting mines is broken?"
MR. BRENNAN said he thinks there could be statewide improvement
to enhance the benefit of the mining industry to the state and
reduce the risk to other businesses and downstream users.
2:06:28 PM
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS said he doesn't know if open-pit mining is an
abomination or if Northern Dynasty will ever build the mine, "or
if I want them to build this mine," but if the process needs
fixing, it should be done for the entire state, and not pick and
choose.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if Mr. Brennan has an economic
relationship with Bob Gillam or Northern Dynasty.
MR. BRENNAN said that Mr. Gillam has contributed, but it has
been less than 5 percent of the group's annual budget.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked it the group existed when other
Alaska mines were permitted.
MR. BRENNAN said the group is only four-years old and staffed
even more recently.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said nearly everything has a side effect,
so what does responsible mining mean?
MR. BRENNAN said the group adopted former Governor Hammond's
work on what is environmentally sound. He said both former
governors Hickel and Hammond have said that the mining industry
is not paying fair market value, especially today when metal
prices are at record highs. He said he wouldn't want to be the
arbitrator of what is responsible, but have the legislature and
DNR use Governor Hammond criteria instead of the blunt tool of
jobs. He said this issue should become the foundation of a
broader, statewide dialogue on that question.
2:09:27 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said Governor's Hammond's legacy will remain for
generations.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he appreciates citizens working
together for best practices in mining; it is admirable and
necessary. He asked how requiring a detailed management plan,
separate from the permitting process, gets to the advancement of
best practices.
2:10:34 PM
MR. BRENNAN answered that this committee hearing enables a
conversation of best practice. He said there is a precedent for
management plans being conducted prior to permitting, within
existing management plans, for much lesser projects. He said if
Hatcher Pass deserves that treatment, the Pebble mine certainly
does. It sounded like DNR would be able to run the process
concurrently with the permitting process.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked how best practices get incorporated
into a land use plan that are not incorporated in the mining
permitting process.
2:13:25 PM
MR. BRENNAN said there is a potential for a conflict of interest
during the permitting process, and he noted a memorandum of
understanding between DNR and Northern Dynasty to expedite
completion of the permit process. Perhaps there is a
predetermined conclusion, he said, and the concern is amplified
because Northern Dynasty pays DNR to expedite permitting. He
stated that DNR can't conduct the oversight for itself, and the
legislature should pay closer attention.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked how much time the organization
spends on the Pebble project.
2:15:18 PM
MR. BRENNAN said he is the one full-time employee, and about 20-
25 percent of his time is spent on the Pebble mine.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked what Mr. Brennan does regarding
other mines.
MR. BRENNAN said that all work is done by invitation of a
community group. He noted that the Association of Village
Council Presidents invited him to come to Akiak for a public
forum. He said he provided information and gave the community
tools for protecting other resources.
2:16:38 PM
WASSILLIE ITUKSIK, President, Aleknagik Tribal Counsel, said he
is also on the city council and the village corporation board.
He is from the village of Aleknagik, which is a gateway to Wood-
Tikchik Park-the largest state park in the country. He said he
was the first chair of the Wood-Tikchik management council.
There are 48 lodges in the park and all employees are white.
There are young men with six-pack boat licenses in the village,
"but they don't get hired," he said. He said there are 14 young
men sitting in the village without jobs who are certified as
heavy equipment operators. He said they have taken state
training programs, but they are sitting in the village with no
jobs. Lodges don't hire Natives, he stated, and he has called
the department of labor and was told that they can hire anybody
they want. He said [employees] at Lake Clark and Katmai
National Parks are all white. "We desperately need economic
development in the Bristol Bay region," he opined. He added
that he is a drift net troller in Bristol Bay, and in the recent
years, every time the fish hit, the American processors put on a
pound limit. "They let you watch the fish go by at 60 cents a
pound. You can't hardly make a living," he said. He mentioned
flying over what was once a village with an airport and a
school, and it was completely dark. The people have moved away
because there are no jobs. He noted that gas is $6.60 gallon,
making it difficult to make a living by fishing. "We
desperately need some kind of economic development in Bristol
Bay," he concluded.
2:20:31 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked why lodge owners are discriminating
or if Natives Alaskans are not willing to do the work.
MR. ITUKSIK said the lodges hire people from out of state, "and
they don't need the Natives."
2:21:16 PM
LISA REIMERS, Iliamna, said she doesn't have a master's degree
and is not employed by Northern Dynasty. She noted that she
lives 15 miles away from the mine and that the proposed road is
on her land, "so we are major stakeholders." "As leaders of
Iliamna Natives Limited, we were skeptical when Northern Dynasty
first came in." She said "we" would like to protect the
environment but need to be open-minded because commercial
fishing has declined due to farmed fish. She said every year
hopes are high for commercial fishing, but it costs money to
fish and most people cannot afford to "go down there anymore".
She said her mother owns a lodge but can't compete with other
lodges because she cannot afford a $1 million airplane for the
fishermen. She said her mother is competing with the high-end
market but is trying to reach the lower-end market.
MS. REIMERS expressed concern about the survey that was done
because only communities that were 70 miles away from the
proposed mine were included. Iliamna was not included in the
survey, and she asked who paid for a previous presentation. She
reported that she doesn't have "a lot of money, we don't have a
billionaire backing us up." She said everyone is worried about
paying $5.00 per gallon for fuel and are worried about how to
sustain themselves. She asked about how to diversify the area's
economy. She said the state will do a good job making sure this
mine is safe, and if it can be safe, "we are looking at it,
because what other options do we have?" She said certain
parties stopped a bridge connecting Iliamna to Nondalton, and
lives have been lost trying to cross the river. She said the
process for Northern Dynasty should continue. She said Northern
Dynasty has hired locals, used local businesses, shared
information from studies, and has been a good neighbor.
2:25:49 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if the road from the mine all the way
to Pedro Bay exists.
MS. REIMERS said it is only proposed. She said she has flown
with Northern Dynasty so she can be part of the process. She
said the company has done studies on fish and plants.
2:27:00 PM
EILEEN ZAISER, Anchorage, Alaska, said she supports the mining
industry and grew up placer mining. She noted that when she
first heard about the Pebble mine she was excited, but now she
is skeptical. She said Northern Dynasty doesn't seem to have a
track record, and she urged the committee to err on the side of
caution. She said often the concern comes after the problem.
She said she does not have a direct economic interest in the
project but would be affected if a catastrophe occurred.
2:29:43 PM
ELEANOR JOHNSON, Teacher, said she is originally from Nondalton,
and there are 16 siblings in her family and all but two left
Nondalton for employment opportunities. There are a handful of
jobs but they are already filled, and many are seasonal, she
noted. She said she left at age 12 to go to school, and that
"shouldn't have to be." She said she has still managed to hang
on to her subsistence lifestyle, never missing a year of
subsistence activities. She asked if the resolution means that
the current process is not adequate and why not just make the
process better. She also asked who is going to pay for "this."
She said the legislature is not supposed to look at specific
projects. "Your job is to take care of all of the citizens of
the State of Alaska." She said she didn't think she nor her
children should have to leave home to pursue a living.
2:33:04 PM
MS. JOHNSON said two of her siblings have jobs in Nondalton, but
there weren't jobs for "the rest of us." She noted that she
left to go to high school.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if she went back to Nondalton and
then couldn't find work there, so had to leave.
MS. JOHNSON said she taught elementary school in Nondalton for
ten years without a teaching degree, and then she left again to
go back to school and got a job with the Anchorage school
district after getting a degree. She said she got married and
raised three daughters in Anchorage. She said she continued to
be involved in the village corporation, but she is not
representing it today. Something disturbing is going on, she
said, and she doesn't like it. She said people should not be
governed by the person with the largest bank account.
2:35:15 PM
MARTHA ANELON said she lives in Iliamna and is employed by a
joint venture of the Calista Corporation and the Iliamna
Development Corporation called Iliamna Pebble Development whose
client is Northern Dynasty. She is the local hire coordinator,
and she has seen all the studies Northern Dynasty has done on
the environment. She noted that Northern Dynasty asks for help
from local people, and working with Northern Dynasty provides
people with skills. It is unique for a company to come in and
hire people from villages like Togiak, she said, and fly them in
to Iliamna and provide food and housing during their shifts.
They go back to Togiak on their time off, she said. "Where else
do you get that in rural Alaska?" She said as the local hire
coordinator she pushes for local hire. She said last season she
had two local people in the office and this season, there will
be three local positions and one position is a bookkeeper.
REPRESENTATIVE CARL MOSES, Alaska State Legislature, said five
or six years ago the legislature appropriated a large sum of
money for the Nondalton bridge, which has been held up by a
billionaire, and he has been told that the people of Nondalton
don't want the bridge, and that is hard to believe.
MS. ANELON said she doesn't know, but she think people want the
bridge to lower the price of gas, "and you would not believe the
number of people who have died...crossing over in the spring and
even in winter."
2:39:44 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said two people died there last year.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if people are divided on the bridge.
MS. ANELON said she does not know.
2:40:24 PM
MS. JOHNSON said she didn't think the notion of people being
against the bridge was "a true picture." She said it doesn't
take much to change someone's mind. At some point the tribal
council was told that Northern Dynasty was going to use the
bridge, but that is not true as far as she knows, but some vocal
people spread that rumor. She said six years ago there was a
unanimous show of hands for the bridge when the three
communities were all together with the Department of
Transportation & Public Facilities. Her nephew died in that
river, and many lives have been lost. Mr. Gillam files lawsuits
against the bridge because it interferes with his scenic view.
2:42:49 PM
DAN OBERLATZ, Owner, Alaska Alpine Adventures, said his company
is a very small adventure travel company, and that he is the
blonde-hair, white guy mentioned in previous testimony. He has
live on Lake Clark for 11 years and he understands the cash
economy. He said he owes Mr. Alsworth $1,500 for oil for his
oil tank. He said he is passionate about the Lake Clark and
Katmai area; it is one of the world's most perfect ecosystems
and home to the world's largest sockeye salmon fishery and the
Mulchatna caribou herd. It has tremendous value to Alaskans,
and there is a lot at stake. He noted the growing tourism
economy and said local hire needs to be addressed, but he
opposes risking the tourism industry in favor of a large open
pit mine. He said of the two competing resources, ecological
diversity and the ore deposit, one will go at the expense of the
other. He said that is why Northern Dynasty owes Alaskans the
assurance that it is not going to have an accident. He supports
HCR 29 in order to scrutinize a project that is unprecedented in
size and scope.
2:45:42 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said the committee now has a flow chart from DNR
showing the large mine permitting process next to the land
planning process that HCR 29 generates.
2:48:00 PM
MR. FOGELS said DNR first reviews the mine application, and then
the land planning process would start with the step of
identifying issues and holding public meetings. The meetings
would be combined, he said, but DNR has never done this process
before so it is the best guess on how it would be intertwined
with the large mine permit process. The issues would be
different for the large mine permitting process, which may be
very specific to the design of the project, like the soundness
of tailings facilities. The land planning process may have
different issues, but the data collection would be done under
the permitting process. Both documents will develop
alternatives regarding where the mine is or where access is, and
the land planning process would consider broader issues like how
DNR would manage the land surrounding the mine. There would be
a series of public meetings, concurrently, and then DNR would
develop a final plan or a final EIS. He said sometimes there
are public meetings at that point depending on the level of
controversy. He said the next step includes the appeals
process, and then the final decision is made on implementing a
permit and implementing a land use plan.
2:52:27 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked about the difference between the
permitting issues and the land plan issues.
MR. FOGELS said the land plan could affect the mine plan, but it
would be broader and would take into account some of the
surrounding land uses. He noted that the land plan typically
wouldn't get into the level of detail of the mine's tailing
pond, for example, but may provide guidance for where a tailings
pond could be sited.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if those things, like the location
of the tailings ponds, are considered in the alternatives during
the permitting process.
MR. FOGELS said yes; that would be a clear duplication.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if the land planning process would
oversee the construction of the mine and worker safety and
whether the mine was structurally sound.
MR. FOGELS said that process would be strictly under the
permitting process.
2:55:38 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said in California there is a coastal commission
that considers view sheds and trails, and he asked if the permit
process deals with the mine itself and the land plan looks at
the environmental impact on the greater area and at some of the
more intangible aspects.
MR. MYLIUS said that is a good way to describe it. Normally the
land planning process would deal with more specific items like
where the mine, road, or tailing pond could be, but those issues
will already be dealt with through the large mine project, "so
the planning process doesn't really add anything to those kinds
of decisions, but it could deal with some of the more aesthetic
concerns or impacts on adjacent land uses, or things that are
not quite so tied to the actual development of the mine site, or
are not so technical."
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if the application has been submitted.
MR. MYLIUS said it will probably be submitted a year from now at
the earliest.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if the land planning process would begin
concurrently with the EIS process, blending the meetings.
MR. MYLIUS said that would be DNR's intention, but it has never
done the two processes together.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS suggested that the resolution action would begin
during scoping and public meetings, and at that time DNR would
assess "softer issues" affiliated with the greater use of the
area. "Presumably more people and other resources would be
used, and although a lot of the data would be shared, you would
generate two reports." He asked if the reports would be
finalized at the same time.
3:00:29 PM
MR. MYLIUS said the intention would be to wrap them both up at
the same time. He said the large mine process would take longer
with its detailed analysis, but the goal would be to keep them
together because the outcome of one may affect the other.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said if HCR 29 moved, it would be a $400,000
report on the softer issues surrounding the mine and possibly
satisfy some of the concerns that were expressed by both sides
today. It would be an augmentation to the permitting process,
he surmised.
MR. MYLIUS said that is a fair assessment.
3:02:27 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said the mine permit process would fully
include the impacts on fisheries, wildlife, subsistence and
such.
MR. FOGELS said the large mine permit would include all those
and more, including socio-economic impacts and air quality.
3:03:10 PM
[HCR 29 was held over.]
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:03 PM.
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