Legislature(2005 - 2006)CAPITOL 124
02/14/2005 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB130 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | HB 130 | TELECONFERENCED | |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 14, 2005
1:06 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jay Ramras, Co-Chair
Representative Ralph Samuels, Co-Chair
Representative Jim Elkins
Representative Carl Gatto
Representative Gabrielle LeDoux
Representative Kurt Olson
Representative Paul Seaton
Representative Harry Crawford
Representative Mary Kapsner
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 130
"An Act granting certain state land to the University of Alaska
and establishing the university research forest; and providing
for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 130
SHORT TITLE: UNIVERSITY LAND GRANT/STATE FOREST
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
02/07/05 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/07/05 (H) RES, FIN
02/09/05 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/09/05 (H) Heard & Held
02/09/05 (H) MINUTE(RES)
02/14/05 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
KATHIE WASSERMAN, Policy and Program Coordinator
Alaska Municipal League
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
JUDITH BRAKEL
Gustavus, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
PAUL JOHNSON
Elfin Cove, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
BOB JOHNSON
Kodiak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
RON RASMUSSEN, Co-Owner
Northland Wood Products
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
CHARLIE RAFT
Kodiak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
BRETT CARLSON
Northern Alaska Tour Company
Coldfoot, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
JOAN MCBEEN
Tenakee Springs, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
DENNIS WATSON, Mayor
Craig, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
JOE BEEDLE, Vice President for Finance
Chief Financial Officer and Treasurer Trustee
Land Grant Endowment Fund
University of Alaska
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of HB 130.
DANIEL TRAIL
Wrangell, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
WALTER NORTHRUP, Commercial Fisherman
Ketchikan, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
MARTY REMUND
Port Alexander, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
JOHN LAWSON
Port Alexander, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
ZACH LENNING, Commercial Fisherman
Port Alexander, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
MARY MONTGOMERY, Director
University Land Management Office
University of Alaska
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding HB 130.
TIM CIOSEK
Sitka, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
ALBERT PAGH, Four Star Lumber Company
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
DEBRA ROSE GIFFORD, Mayor
Port Alexander, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
JULIE HURSEY
Petersburg, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
ERIC LEE, Commercial Fisherman
Petersburg, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
JAMES BRENNAN
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 130.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CHAIR JAY RAMRAS called the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting to order at 1:06:48 PM. Representatives LeDoux, Elkins,
Kapsner, Ramras, Samuels, Seaton, Olson, and Gatto were present
at the call to order. Representative Crawford arrived as the
meeting was in progress. Representative Thomas was also
present.
HB 130-UNIVERSITY LAND GRANT/STATE FOREST
CHAIR RAMRAS announced that the only order of business would be
HOUSE BILL NO. 130, "An Act granting certain state land to the
University of Alaska and establishing the university research
forest; and providing for an effective date."
KATHIE WASSERMAN, Policy and Program Coordinator, Alaska
Municipal League, noted that the governor's letter regarding HB
130 stated that the bill is a product of more than a year of
discussions between the Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
and the university; however, municipalities have known about it
for only one week. She said she has been contacted by many
communities, and it is very difficult to sift through and see
how HB 130 might affect them because of the short timeframe.
She said that the Alaska Municipal League is concerned that the
public process has been narrowed down. Ms. Wasserman requested
that the state hold community workshops.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS asked if Ms. Wasserman would recommend
that HB 130 go to the House Community and Regional Affairs
Standing Committee.
MS. WASSERMAN said she thinks there should be more community
input, and that most of the communities are not even sure how
this legislation will impact them.
JUDITH BRAKEL, Gustavus, said the public process has been
extremely narrowed down. She said she can see why the
proponents want to fast track HB 130, because with more time
they will see that there are a lot of places that people will be
angry about. There will be special concerns about special
places, she said, and Baranof Warm Springs is one of those
places. It is not good to spread development there, she said,
and the selected site is near a special, precious little tidal
lagoon, which has a tidewater waterfall. The bay already has a
little town site with enough property there for development.
She said that the university needs money, but it doesn't need a
bunch of little controversial lands. Ms. Brakel recommends
providing income to the university by revising the economic
limit factor or with an income tax, but "don't give away these
very special places."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said that most of the parcels in Southeast
Alaska are in the settlement category under DNR, and they are
slated to be sold for settlement uses at some time. He asked if
Ms. Brakel objects that they be sold at any time.
MS. BRAKEL said the parcel at Baranof Warm Springs was "for
dispersed recreation, it was not for development in the land
planning categories." She noted that the mental health lands
were similar in that they were supposed to make money, but it
caused much concern in Gustavus, and the community ended up
raising money to buy the land. She said there is no planning
for the HB 130 lands, and no one gets to weigh in. Some places
might be desirable to develop, she said, "but we will never know
which are which under this kind of process."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if the lands classified in
development status are of no concern to Ms. Brakel, only the
Baranof Warm Springs land.
MS. BRAKEL said she is not familiar with the status of all the
parcels, but there's a lot of attachment to "these far-flung"
places.
1:16:53 PM
PAUL JOHNSON, Elfin Cove, said he is disappointed by HB 130.
"These lands have a lot of history to them," he said, and he
doesn't think DNR or the university "has any idea of what they
are getting here." DNR walked through the lands quickly in
June, he said, and the land may be very different at another
time of year. Some may have "huge economic ramifications." He
added that many of the HB 130 lands are not yet under a borough,
forcing a future borough to play "second fiddle" in its
selections.
MR. JOHNSON said the bill definitely needs to go to the House
Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee. He noted
that other land grant universities receive downtown, urban real
estate. He supports the university but said that if the state
takes away the region's "economic opportunities," then "having a
university is not going to do us any good."
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS pointed out that part of the university's plan
"was not just for your kids, but it was your grandchildren and
your great grandchildren, and the way that you get land in the
middle of a developed urban or rural area is by fulfilling the
mission of the land grant, and communities grow around it.
That's the Wal-Mart plan. They find a piece of property in an
outlying area and then the community grows toward them."
MR. JOHNSON said that some areas have mining, timber, or oil.
"Our areas [have] tourism." Elfin Cove is only 91 acres, and
the nearby HB 130 parcel in Idaho Inlet is 590 acres, he said.
Idaho Inlet is the area of economic opportunity for Elfin Cove,
he added, "you take that away, and the community does not have
the opportunity."
1:19:53 PM
BOB JOHNSON, Kodiak, said that he believes that most, if not
all, of the residents of Kodiak are upset about the land grant
of Narrow Cape. "This is Kodiak's playground, there's a working
cattle ranch out there, the beach is a tourist attraction, and
any suggestion that we might lose control over that piece of
property upsets us." He expressed suspicion that the president
of the university is also on the board of the Alaska Aerospace
Development Corporation (AADC), and that the president must know
the value of that property to AADC and to the military. Mr.
Johnson said that the university may not intend to sell to the
AADC or the military, but promises are not always kept. "We
definitely oppose this land grant to the university even if it
is not their intent to sell it for profit," because there may
come a time when the university needs that money.
1:22:21 PM
CO-CHAIR SAMUELS asked if the people of Kodiak should buy the
property.
DR. JOHNSON said the community can't afford it.
RON RASMUSSEN, Co-Owner, Northland Wood Products, Fairbanks,
said his company employs 30-50 people year round, operating a
sawmill for the last 40 years. The company relies on state
timber sales for all its raw material, and he said he opposes
the 5,100-acre grant to the university research forest. The
Tanana State Forest was developed to provide a constant timber
base for the industry, he said, and the land transfer will take
the most prime and most accessible forest out of production.
"This block of timber may be studied and researched to death,
but it most likely won't produce another stick of lumber or
provide any more real jobs again." He said research can co-
exist with forest production, as was done in the Bonanza Creek
Experimental Forest. Mr. Rasmussen proposed the following:
Give the university the 1,200-acre Bonanza Creek
Experimental Forest it now manages; give the
university the 10,000 acres already set aside within
the Tanana Valley State Forest for research and
natural areas; and since I don't see any prime forest
acreage from Southeast, I suggest taking the balance
from there.
1:25:14 PM
CHARLIE RAFT, Kodiak, said he agrees 100 percent with Bob
Johnson, and added that he has witnessed land acquisitions where
access was promised, but over the course of time it was
restricted. He said he didn't hear a good answer when
Representative LeDoux asked the university why it needed to
actually purchase the land.
1:27:23 PM
BRETT CARLSON, Northern Alaska Tour Company, Coldfoot, told the
committee that he operated tours on the Dalton Highway, which he
said is a critical economic resource for transportation to
Arctic oil fields and a budding world-class tourism destination.
He said the Dalton Highway is a success story for land planning
because of the public processes, which have included many
agencies and private industry. He said it is a wilderness
highway while being an industrial highway, and the public
planning has limited development along the highway to keep it
clean and attractive. He said people in Coldfoot were surprised
to hear of HB 130, which proposes to turn all of the land in the
Coldfoot area over to settlement. It may be a good idea, he
said, "but there obviously are a lot of down sides to that, and
clearly, I think private landowners...should be involved." At
the Yukon River there are many private landholders that would be
impacted, as well as villages, and there should be discussion
before the bill leaves the House Resources Committee, he said.
Mr. Carlson noted that there is a third parcel in HB 130 just
north of Happy Valley, which he can't find much information on.
He asked the committee to view the Dalton Highway as a resource
for our grandchildren. "Slow the process down and get the
information out," he concluded.
1:31:28 PM
JOAN MCBEEN, Tenakee Springs, reported that from where she is in
Tenakee Spring's public library she sees four clear cuts. She
said she has concerns about transfers of large acreages to the
university, which she said is not consistent with Tenakee's
community plan. She said she was a planning commissioner for 20
years, and the community plan says that Tenakee residents put
value on their lifestyle, and they do not like sudden changes
but prefer incremental growth, which is in accord with community
values. Another objective of the community plan, she said, is
to avoid property speculation and a land rush. She added that a
subdivision would drop land prices dramatically. She also
expressed her concern with how HB 130 conflicts with the
Northern Southeast Area Plan of October 2002. DNR worked with
Tenakee on it, and citizens were satisfied with some of the
decisions. She said that one parcel that is part of HB 130 has
the following management intent: "the parcel is to be retained
by the state and managed to accommodate the current recreational
uses...further development of this parcel is not considered
appropriate." She said another parcel in HB 130 also was to be
retained by the state, as written in DNR's area plan. Ms.
McBeen asked the committee how it can be appropriate to transfer
such lands, and she also noted that citizens were not given much
time and she would like more public participation.
1:36:13 PM
DENNIS WATSON, Mayor, Craig, said he has been involved in the
selection of state lands, and he is not opposed to conveying
state lands to the university trust, but he has issues with HB
130 as written. He said his complaint "about the public process
is the absolute lack of process" of this bill, which has been
"kicking around for a year, and this is the first we know about
it. I hate reacting in the last minute," he said. He added
that it is particularly troublesome because DNR hadn't done
their homework in a previous land selection project, and it
created an unnecessary fight.
MR. WATSON said the land transfers will severely limit
entitlement land for a future Prince of Wales Island Borough.
Such properties will be important for municipal income and to
build infrastructure to provide borough services required by
law, he stated. Another negative aspect is that any timber
harvested by the university would not be sent to local mills.
DNR worked with Craig on a recent land selection process, and
the conveyance to the university was not on the table, he said,
and the community would have made selections much differently.
He quoted DNR's Bob Loeffler who said, "These are really our
most valuable lands." "We agree," said Mr. Watson, and he
requests the committee withdraw any lands in the bill that are
within the model borough boundary, or at least hold on to the
bill until things can be worked out.
1:40:20 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he heard that the process was rushed, but
"that's precisely what we are doing here is listening to folks'
concerns. We are taking our time; we are opening up to plenty
of testimony. When others criticize how quickly we're moving on
this, what exactly do you mean because we're the committee of
first referral and then it goes through house finance...what
makes you think this is moving at a breakneck speed?"
1:41:03 PM
MR. WATSON said he was concerned because information about this
land transfer was kept secret.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked Joe Beedle to "dispel some of these
concerns that we're hearing that suggest a degree of
recklessness or uncertainty as to how we're doing things."
1:41:38 PM
JOE BEEDLE, Vice President for Finance, Chief Financial Officer
and Treasurer Trustee, Land Grant Endowment Fund, University of
Alaska, Fairbanks, responded that there is a section of Alaska
statutes AS 14.40.170, items 7 and 8, that refers to the duties
and powers of the Board of Regents and the University of Alaska,
and it says to adopt reasonable rules for the prudent trust
management and the long term financial benefit to the University
of Alaska of the land of the university, and to provide public
notice of sales, leases, exchanges and transfers of land. Mr.
Beedle suggested looking at the university's website which
discusses a policy numbered: PO5.11.04, which provides for a
very specific process of public input and final approval by the
Board of Regents.
MR. BEEDLE said normally the university would go through a
strategic process which includes an annual plan and a
development plan if the university is going to subdivide or
develop the property before selling. He said there is one very
important exception when the university gets an unsolicited
offer for high public demand property: the university can do an
accelerated sale. He said that DNR cannot be as responsive as
the university.
MR. BEEDLE stated the university has the desire to work with
people with valid and existing rights. He said that DNR has
nominated these parcels of land, and the university does not
have a specific idea of what to do with them. As it decides, it
will be engaged with the community with a public notice process.
The university is not going to operate with a sense of urgency;
we are very deliberate, he said. People will have plenty of
opportunity to engage, and if there are valid existing rights,
the university would have to adhere to all of those, he said.
If the land is not in an organized borough, the university will
look to DNR for development approvals. He said that it would be
wrong to say the university is anxious to sell or develop; it
might be 50 or 100 years before the university finds that there
is a high enough demand for some parcels. The university will
be going through a slow process, but he added that the
university can act fast as well.
1:48:43 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked Mr. Beedle to explain how parcels were
selected for HB 130.
MR. BEEDLE said some ideas like the Tanana Forest came from
legislators and university officials during deliberations of SB
7 in 2000, where there was much input.
1:50:25 PM
MR. BEEDLE said that most properties came about through the DNR
area planning process, whereby DNR investigated potential uses
for state land. The state inventoried all of its Southeast
timber land, and excluded that land from the university for the
benefit of local value-added industries. He said that DNR
eliminated critical habitat and any lands that were in DNR's
five-year sales plan. He said the area plans were a "public
zoning process." What was left for the university was
development, settlement, or recreation lands. HB 130 lands were
nominated from those lands.
1:53:20 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said that it appears there was much
discussion between the governor's office, DNR and the university
as to what lands would be on HB 130.
MR. BEEDLE said that the university's discussions date back to
the Knowles Administration in 2000. In the last five months the
University and DNR have looked at lands "in a serious way."
"We've asked for some lands specifically on steep mountain
slopes located in the Brad[field] Canal as an example...and some
properties in the Skagway area that we didn't think we could
ever develop. So there was some fleshing out of the nomination
list that was provided by DNR, and in fact this has been an
ongoing effort."
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said that President Hamilton spoke to the
Kodiak Island Borough Assembly, and he said he had no idea that
the university was going to get the rocket launch property on
Kodiak.
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS asked Mr. Beedle if he thought the
university would be interested in a covenant that the university
would have to do value-added for any timber harvesting. He also
asked if there could be a requirement that the watershed of
Neets Bay be protected.
1:56:50 PM
MR. BEEDLE said that as to value-added: "We anticipate adding
value to any and all property that gets transferred." Regarding
timber, he said the lands were not nominated for their timber
value, but there could be secondary value from timber.
Currently the university doesn't have a primary manufacture
requirement, but "that's not to say the university won't work
with local value-added mills." For Neets Bay, the university
would be taking that property subject to the valid existing
rights. He said he believes the reason the property is of value
is because of the hatchery, and the university would only
contemplate uses that would be compatible, preserving that
highest and best use. He added that "even one piece of property
falling off of the list is a concern to us. We would be very
motivated to try to provide assurances in a transfer deed and in
covenants."
1:59:38 PM
REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS asked "if you were to receive forest lands
within the Tongass with a covenant on it that required value-
added so the mills in that area wouldn't be jeopardized, would
you be interested?"
MR. BEEDLE said the university had offered "to the state that we
would be pleased to accept land within their defined state
forest, and that we would be happy to accommodate the rotation
of the timber such that that timber was allocated to - dedicated
for - the local value-added mills. If for some reason this bill
got changed, and parcels of those lands currently not included--
that you just defined--we would not object to the requirement
that those have value-added local manufacture stipulations."
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if this land selection process was
collaborative between the university, DNR, Alaska Department of
Fish & Game, and some others.
MR. BEEDLE responded that that is true for the area plans, but
not the university selections.
2:02:35 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked "Did you also say some of these lands or a
percentage...were going to be sold by DNR sometime in the next
five years, that that was part of their area plan."
MR. BEEDLE said that DNR has a different process than the
university for selling lands, but "that is absolutely correct."
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked, "and that applied to some of these lands,
not all of the lands, that are before us today, is that
correct?"
MR. BEEDLE responded that most of the Southeast lands were
included in the area plans.
2:03:34 PM
DANIEL TRAIL, Wrangell, said he and the homeowners association
from Thom's Place are "all pretty dismayed." He added, "This
land giveaway really takes away our capacity for self-
determination as a community out there. The size of this
parcel, which is 2,360 acres, dwarfs our small community and it
is right adjacent to it." He said the residents fear that
"clear cutting is on the way," which would be unacceptable
because people live there for the beautiful, pristine,
wilderness setting. He added "we honor the mechanism to fund
the university," but "for us to give up such a large parcel,
hardly seems fair."
2:05:57 PM
WALTER NORTHRUP, Commercial Fisherman, Ketchikan, said he has
been commercial fishing since 1948, and he watched it
deteriorate and then become revitalized by Southern Southeast
Regional Aquaculture Association (SSRAA). He is very opposed to
the granting of land in the Neets Bay area because SSRAA has
spent much money and effort in establishing its fish hatchery,
and has "revitalized the fishing in this area." He added that
any income derived from Neets Bay tourism should go to SSRAA,
and "above all, don't log their watershed." He warned that if
the university gets the land and then sells it, there is no
guarantee it won't be logged. Mr. Northrup said that this is
the first chance he has had to look at this, and he told the
committee to get maps of the HB 130 areas out to the public. He
thinks there will be a "very incensed public." Looking at the
map of Coffman Cove, he said, it looks like the university takes
the whole town. "I think you might have a tremendous uproar if
you don't go very careful on this and let people know what you
are talking about."
2:08:31 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said that DNR's web page does have all the maps.
MR. NORTHRUP said he, like many others, doesn't have a computer.
"Put it in the papers," he added.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if Mr. Northrup said that there is no
guarantee that these lands wouldn't be logged.
MR. NORTHRUP answered that the local paper said the university
might sell some of these places.
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO followed by asking if there is any
guarantee now that the lands won't be logged.
MR. NORTHRUP said, "The university didn't make any friends" when
it logged Mountain Point. It advertised it in the Anchorage
newspaper, "but nobody out here knew it was going to happen
until it was on top of them."
2:10:37 PM
NICK STELTZENMULLER, Student, University of Alaska Southeast,
Sitka, said he cares about the university, but he is concerned
about the lands in the Sitka area, specifically Lisianski
peninsula, Middle Island, and Baranof Warm Springs. He said,
"they are big enough deals" for each one to have a full public
hearing. He said that this kind of land transfer should be a
five-year process, with DNR and the university looking at each
parcel individually and discussing future development goals with
the community and with the tribes. He said that Mr. Beedle
testified that the university does not have a sense of urgency
with these parcels. He told Representative Gatto the
distinction between land owned by the state and land owned by
the university. As a citizen of Alaska, he said, he has more
influence in what happens on state lands...
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS interjected, "thank you very much and we are
very pleased to be taking your testimony--right now."
2:13:48 PM
TARNICA GARNICK, Port Alexander, reported that there were four
people in Port Alexander to testify.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked that only three people speak.
MARTY REMUND, Port Alexander, said that he opposes HB 130,
because it is not a proper way to fund the university, and in
the process, the governor is bypassing local government and
land-use planning efforts. HB 130 goes directly against the
Port Alexander comprehensive plan, he said. He added that
residents favor a stable population and economy and that it is
disrespectful not to seek community input. The 267 acres
proposed for transfer is large compared to the size of the town,
which has a total deeded acreage of 128 acres, and it would have
tremendous impact, he said. Only 80 of the community's acres
are privately owned, and the rest are held by the city of Port
Alexander. The transfer would devalue the private and city
land, and Port Alexander's water supply is not adequate to
service new lands, he said. He added that the community worked
with the state in developing the Northern Southeast Area Plan,
which states that "DNR should contact the city prior to making a
decision on any applications involving development" and
"development is not considered appropriate during the planning
period given the uncertainty over the need for additional lands
in this remote fishing community and the ability of the city of
Port Alexander to provide public services."
2:16:59 PM
JOHN LAWSON, Port Alexander, said that it looks like the lands
being transferred include the town's watershed, transit line,
water supply, tank, and chlorinator and filtration building. By
putting people there it "could be completely detrimental to our
total water system." He added that HB 130 is in "direct
adversity to our comprehensive plan, even our cemetery would be
completely blocked off except from a water access."
ZACH LENNING, Commercial Fisherman, Port Alexander, noted that
Mr. Beedle said that the university wants to move slowly and
some of the lands would not be developed for many years, but at
the last teleconference he heard that the Southeast lands would
be used for quick cash, which does not sound like a long-term
plan.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said that he is responsible for that confusion,
"the funds are supposed to be for the legacy of the next 50 to
100 years, but the university's point of view was a land
disposal that should be 20-year plus period."
MR. LENNING noted that "these lands basically sandwich our town.
It's a huge amount of land compared to what we have." He said
the land is where locals go hunting. "If I leave my house to go
hunting, I have to go across those lands unless I want to go
way, way out of [my] way." He added that it "would completely
change" almost everyone's subsistence activities, "and that's
how we mainly live out here."
2:19:35 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON expressed concern of the land transfers
boxing in the city, and he doesn't see access routes and trails
on the map. He asked Mr. Lenning if there are specific trails
that are used.
MR. LENNING said that whole area is the city's watershed, and
there are no marked trails. He said residents use the entire
area.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked him to send the committee notations
on where the water structures are.
2:21:32 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked the university to reiterate how a land-
sale process will work in a small community like Port Alexander.
MARY MONTGOMERY, Director, University Land Management Office,
University of Alaska, Fairbanks, said that if the university
planned to develop the property it would go talk to the
community. She said that "periodically it's just not feasible
and the timing's not right for development." She said that if
there are trails and access issues, "we're very careful to
always provide access to adjacent properties--we get people
through our property and out the other side." She said she is
not aware of the water system, and "it is not the type of
property that we would have wanted to have in this land
selection list." She said the university and DNR should look
into that.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked that "when it comes to a small community
like Port Alexander, will there actually be someone on the
ground who meets with the community leaders...to discuss things
like a watershed and some of their other concerns prior to
dispersal of property?"
MS. MONTGOMERY said, "Absolutely. We would always go on the
ground and meet with the community and hear the community
concerns. We generally spend eight or twelve hours listening to
the community concerns, and try to mitigate those
concerns...trying to develop a project that is compatible with
the community."
2:24:40 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said it is his intuition that people in rural
communities think there is more of a public process in the more
urban areas. He asked Ms. Montgomery to explain how the process
might be different in a small community like Port Alexander. He
first asked how many people live in Port Alexander.
MR. LENNING said there are 69 residents, and he added that if
someone looked at the land they would have a "quick sense of our
concerns."
MS. MONTGOMERY explained that the process begins with a 60-day
notice from the university, then a meeting is scheduled with
community leaders, and the university tries to have an open-
house workshop for locals, bringing an engineer or surveyor to
help design projects. The university listens to issues of
utilities and access and tries to determine if there is a market
for the lots. The university representatives go back and work
on a design, and they would probably return to the community to
get more feedback, she said, and once the university has gone
through the community process, it goes through the platting
authority process with public notice. At that time the state
will ensure access is available to adjacent property owners, and
that streams are protected. Responding to Representative
Ramras, she said that usually at least two people from the
university and a consultant go to the initial meeting.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX said that the process of coming into
communities is similar to what is in university policy, but a
similar section of the old bill was repealed by HB 130. "In
light of the university intention to...elicit public comments,
what is the purpose of repealing AS 14.40.366 which provides for
that public comment period?" she asked.
MR. BEEDLE responded that the entire section is not repealed,
and there are several sections in old SB 7 that are not
appropriate because mineral properties were not selected. He
added that the "university policy already exists to provide that
protection," but that the university wants to be able to be
responsive to the market and not slowed down by public process
when "an opportunity" is available.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON read AS 14.40.366 which says the
university "shall" provide public notice, whereas university
policy states that they are to provide notice "to the extent
practicable." He said there is a huge difference. He restated
that his chief concern is about access, and university policy
number 6, says that "access through university property, subject
to the receipt of acceptable tort.... the university will
recognize or provide alternate access for R.S. 2477 right-of-
ways and existing state-identified historic trails which cross
[university] property." He noted that the policy states that
the university will "provide additional easements at fair market
value." Representative Seaton asked if access is only provided,
even on right-of-ways, if the university is given immunity and
fair market value.
MS. MONTGOMERY said that policy deals with people who want a
specific easement for private access through land already owned
by the university. "For access through the property if they are
undeveloped, that means just the public casually using the
property to go through our property to get to the Tongass and
recreate or go on this property to pick blueberries - whatever
it is - it's covered in this bill that the public can do that,"
she said. She added that the public does that on existing
university lands. She said that there is a public notice
requirement in AS 14.40.170. "We can't get around public notice
even if it weren't practicable," she added.
2:34:05 PM
TIM CIOSEK, Sitka, is a property owner in Baranof Warm Springs,
which, he said, is not officially a city, but it is a community
of people. He said he has concerns that that community might
not be heard. He said he is opposed to HB 130 and is
particularly disappointed in the proposed transfer of lands in
Lisianski peninsula, Baranof Warm Springs, Port Alexander and
Middle Island. He said the Baranof Warm Springs land transfers
compromise the salt chuck and watershed. He said the land has
more and better recreational, biological, and historical value.
He responded to the question of why people feel the bill is
moving too fast. He said several things have been sliding by
the community of Sitka, and there is not enough time to
adequately apprise people.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if Baranof Warm Springs is beautiful and
if other people would enjoying owning private property there.
MR. CIOSEK responded in the affirmative.
2:38:35 PM
ALBERT PAGH, Four Star Lumber Company, Fairbanks, read a
prepared statement. He said Governor Murkowski promised to
encourage resource development, but HB 130 does the opposite by
tying up logging land. He said that when the United States
Forest Service (USFS) managed the Bonanza Creek Experimental
Forest, it was managed as a productive forest, and they had the
Alaska forestry division conduct timber sales using different
methods of cutting and reforestation. When the USFS left, it
was turned over to the university, which ended all logging, he
said. After a heavy infestation of insects, Mr. Pagh said the
university decided to leave the trees to see what happened. He
said if the university had looked at what happened on the Kenai
Peninsula, it would have known the bugs would denude the forest.
In 1982, he said, a group of loggers and firewood cutters
lobbied to get a state forest established. If there hadn't been
a viable timber industry, the timber from the Rosie Creek fire
would have been wasted, he noted. He added, "There are 254,000
acres in the Chena Hot Springs Recreation Area if the university
just wants to watch trees grow; there's a lot of good timber in
that area for them to watch." He said that given the history of
the university, he did not think there would be a program to
encourage logging.
2:43:02 PM
DEBRA ROSE GIFFORD, Mayor, Port Alexander, noted that the Alaska
State Constitution states that no land disposal shall be made
without prior public notice. She said that the public has not
had time to fully respond, and that HB 130 lands will impact the
community's watershed and vital hunting and hiking areas. She
added that a parcel to the west of Port Alexander was designated
as general use in the Northern Southeast Area Plan and
encompasses the town's water supply. She said that DNR's plan
states that that watershed "will remain as state lands." "Our
point is that the parcels in Port Alexander should not have been
selected," she concluded.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if there was a problem with the
parcel on the other side.
2:46:10 PM
MS. GIFFORD replied that the parcel to the east is used heavily
for subsistence hunting, which is the community's mainstay
because the town is so remote. She noted that Port Alexander
and DNR already went through a process to identify those lands
as such.
2:46:52 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said that the university will come in with three
people, and he asked Ms. Gifford to describe what would follow.
MS. GIFFORD answered that she hoped they would not be coming
because the parcels should not have been considered. But she
said, "When people come to our community, like that, I, as the
mayor, will meet them. I will notify the community and open up
the community hall; start up the oil stove," and then people
will come and ask questions.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked how many people would attend such a
meeting.
MS. GIFFORD said about 15-20 people, with some staying for part
of the meeting and others staying the entire time.
2:49:30 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he is "trying to get a handle on how this
land selection process would work." He told Ms. Montgomery that
the communities feel threatened and asked her to "interact" with
the mayor.
MS. MONTGOMERY said her team would come and work with people one
on one, bringing maps and aerial photos. She often sends out
materials in advance. The team would talk about what type of
development opportunities would be available. She noted that
her job is to make money for the university. She said they
would discuss how large to make the subdivision lots, what types
of covenants the community would want, whether the university or
the community would construct the roads.
MS. GIFFORD said her community could not afford to build roads.
MS. MONTGOMERY said that in Coffman Cove people wanted to build
roads, and she wasn't suggesting that the community provide free
roads. She added that some communities do not want roads, and
those are the things they "will evaluate."
MS. GIFFORD noted that Port Alexander just has boardwalks, and
the community has several private lots that people are trying to
sell right now. To open up more land for settlement would put
those lots in competition, and it seems silly, she said, to open
up lots when current ones are available.
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked what happens in a small fragile economy
with lots already for sale.
MS. MONTGOMERY responded that if they have lots that aren't
selling, the university will not be there because there is no
market. She said the university won't come in and depress a
market, and it sounds like a place where the university would
just wait and watch the market. She added that they often
respond to communities that request they come in and develop
their land.
2:56:25 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked if the mayor will see someone from the
university within 90 days of passage of this bill, or will she
not see the university until a plan is developed.
MS. MONTGOMERY said her team won't go there until there is
potential, and often the community gets in touch with the
university when they have a need or concern with the property.
The university has no specific plan to do a tour of all these
properties, but it will come at the request of the community.
2:58:00 PM
MS. GIFFORD suggested the university come and look at the
parcels, because she predicts that it would not be interested.
JULIE HURSEY, Petersburg, Alaska, said she is opposed to HB 130
because the university will try to maximize profits by selling
it to private entities in large chunks. "They can't afford to
hang on to this land forever, and selling it off piecemeal is
going to be a land management headache for the university," she
said. The university may say that they can offer covenants, she
said, but if the land ends up in private hands, residents will
not have any control. She added that Joe Beedle said that if
these lots were sold it would realize about $5 million per year
for the university, and this is just one percent of its annual
budget. The large uproar is not worth it, and she said the land
grant idea was good in the 1800s but not now. She stated that
public process is painful, messy, and expensive but that is "why
we live in this country, and that's what we have to be proud of
as a nation."
ERIC LEE, Commercial Fisherman, Petersburg, said that at the
meeting held in Petersburg last week, DNR and university
representatives said HB 130 was being fast tracked, and the
governor wanted it as soon as possible, and then they went on to
say that it would be many years until any money comes in. He
said he asked what the rush was, and the only answer was that
the governor wanted it passed this session, which he said was
really no answer at all. A huge land transfer bill should be
the product of a thorough public process, he said. DNR told Mr.
Lee that someone would get back to him to explain the big rush,
but no one did. Mr. Lee concluded that there is a rush because
the bill authors know it will not survive the public process.
3:02:30 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS interjected that part of the governor's strategy
is that "we're also applying for an additional 250,000
acres...from the federal government which is to try to get land
back in the hands of the state and consequently back in the
hands of the people, so I don't want you to ascribe just pure
Machiavellian purposes to the governor."
3:03:10 PM
JAMES BRENNAN, Anchorage, Alaska, said that it is inappropriate
for the legislature to take this on in a three-month session,
and he called it "micro-management" by the legislature. He
added that the public's concerns are not alleviated by Ms.
Montgomery's description of the university's process for selling
land, because once the university has the property, it is too
late. Baranof Warm Springs has a long-standing settlement with
many lots, and he told the committee that if someone wants to
buy property, there is land available. But the lagoon and lake
are not appropriate for development because they are enjoyed by
many residents and tourists as a recreation site, and he said,
"If you could see this location, we could all save our breath."
Mr. Brennan disputed Mr. Beedle's statement that the area plan
was a zoning process to set the acceptable uses.
3:05:58 PM
CO-CHAIR RAMRAS interjected because of time.
[HB 130 was held over.]
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:06 p.m.
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