02/20/2004 01:10 PM House RES
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 20, 2004
1:10 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Nancy Dahlstrom, Co-Chair
Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair
Representative Carl Gatto
Representative Bob Lynn
Representative Nick Stepovich
Representative Kelly Wolf
Representative Beth Kerttula
Representative David Guttenberg
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Cheryll Heinze, Vice Chair
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Representative Hugh Fate
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 442
"An Act relating to the Big Game Commercial Services Board and
to the regulation of big game hunting services and
transportation services; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 345
"An Act relating to fees for state park developed campsites; and
providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 442
SHORT TITLE: BIG GAME GUIDE BOARD & SERVICES
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF LEG BUDGET & AUDIT
02/09/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/09/04 (H) RES, FIN
02/20/04 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HB 345
SHORT TITLE: CAMPSITE FEES: DISABLED VETERANS/SENIORS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) FATE
01/12/04 (H) PREFILE RELEASED (1/2/04)
01/12/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/12/04 (H) RES, FIN
02/04/04 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
02/04/04 (H) Heard & Held
02/04/04 (H) MINUTE(RES)
02/20/04 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH SAMUELS
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 442, introduced the bill and
answered questions from the committee.
RON SOMERVILLE, Vice Chair
Board of Game
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 442, and
answered questions from the members.
MATT ROBUS, Director
Division of Wildlife Conservation
Department of Fish and Game
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 442, and answered questions
from the members.
JOE KLUTSCH, Member
Alaska Professional Hunters Association
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 442 and answered questions
from the members.
PAUL JOHNSON
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB442 and answered questions
from the members.
RICK URION, Director
Division of Occupational Licensing
Department of Community and Economic Development
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 442 and answered
questions from the members.
ROBERT HARDY, registered big game guide
Wasilla, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 442 and answered questions
from the members.
JIM POUND, Staff
to Representative Hugh Fate
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of Representative Fate,
sponsor of HB 345.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 04-06, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIR BEVERLY MASEK called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:10 p.m. Representatives Masek,
Dahlstrom, Lynn, Stepovich, Wolf, Guttenberg, and Kerttula were
present at the call to order. Representative Gatto arrived as
the meeting was in progress.
HB 442-BIG GAME GUIDE BOARD & SERVICES
Number 0075
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the first order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 442, "An Act relating to the Big Game
Commercial Services Board and to the regulation of big game
hunting services and transportation services; and providing for
an effective date."
Number 0125
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH SAMUELS, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor
of HB 442, introduced the bill and answered questions from the
committee. He told the members that he represents district 29
and is the chairman of the Legislative Budget and Audit
Committee, which is the reason he brings HB 442 to the committee
today. Representative Samuels explained that this bill is in
response to an audit that came out in [December of 2003] that
looked at the problems that resulted from the Big Game
Commercial Services Board's discontinuation. Guides had been
licensed in Alaska since territorial days and regulated by a
board from 1973 until 1995, when it was sunsetted. A number of
issues and concerns have since gone unaddressed which are
identified and explored within the audit [Audit Digest #08-
30025-03] which was done by the legislative auditor.
Number 0196
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS told the members that the issues
identified in audit are as follows:
1. The lack of ability of the Department of
Community and Economic Development (DCED), Division of
Occupational Licensing, to coordinate with other state
and federal agencies.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS commented that he does not believe this
problem is anything but a lack of time necessary to address all
the concerns of the new duties which DCED inherited in 1995.
The state agencies that the department must deal with on the
hunting industry are Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G),
Department of Public Safety (DPS), Department of Natural
Resources (DNR), Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC),
Department of Community and Economic Development (DCED). On the
federal level the department must work with the Bureau of Land
Management (BLM), the U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Department of
Fish and Wildlife Service, the National Park Service, the U.S.
Coast Guard, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), and
possibly even the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).
Number 0267
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS said that another issue that was
identified was:
2. Lessening of ethical standards.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS commented that there are no ethical
standards set in statutes. The other issues identified were:
3. Lack of detailed operating standards.
4. Weaker focus on hunter safety.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS told the members he believes some of the
guides will testify that their clients are very savvy, worldwide
hunters and some are not. To have the standards set for both
the training of the guides and the assistant guides who are
often alone with the hunters in the field, is important, he
said.
Number 0317
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS continued to list items identified in the
audit as follows:
5. Diminished disciplinary climate for unsafe,
unethical, or even illegal conduct.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS explained that there are no business
ethics standards to determine how guides or transporters conduct
business. It leaves little direction to the department on how
to address consumer complaints. If a complaint comes in the
department would have to contact one of the agencies or possibly
the guide service. He reiterated that there are no standards
for guiding companies. The consumer protection angle of this
bill says that when the board is appointed, those on the board
would understand the industry and know what the inherent
standards should be, what the statutory standards should be, and
address the concerns of the department. Under the current
system there are no sanctions for consumer complaints or game
violations. The fines for infractions have been significantly
reduced, and qualification exams are required only for
registered guides, not the assistant guides.
Number 0440
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS told the members that it has been
suggested that these issues could be addressed by the department
with a board; however, after meeting with numerous players
involved, it seems if the department could solve the problems
alone without the expertise in-house, it would have done so. It
has been almost 10 years since [the board's sunset], and the
audit has determined that the problems have continued to
accumulate. He said that the reestablishment of a board would
provide an accessible public forum to address problems that face
the hunting industry, its interaction with hunters, and the
various private and public land managers. The board could use
its expertise and wisdom to oversee the big game industry and
provide a proactive response as situations develop,
Representative Samuels added.
Number 0488
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS commented that he believes new
opportunities could be identified and realized by this process.
He said he strongly feels that Alaska is a world class hunting
destination. People save their entire lives to come here for a
hunting experience that a lot of us simply take for granted.
Representative Samuels stated that Alaska's reputation and
resources should be protected, so that reputation is not lost.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS summarized that HB 442 does three things.
It moves the responsibilities from the department to the board.
Most of the 23 pages in the bill involve changing the statute to
move the responsibility from the department to the board,
changes the term "guide" to "guide outfitter", and raises
potential fines for various violations from $1,000 to $5,000, he
explained.
Number 0620
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked when the board sunset took effect.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied in 1995.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked what was the rationale behind the
failure to renew the board's existence.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS directed Representative Lynn to the
audit. He suggested that the legislative auditor could address
the question in detail.
Number 0670
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH surmised that the bill would provide
for increased fines and reestablishment of the board. He asked
if the board would implement the fines and be the point of final
review of those fines.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS responded that the board would implement
an appeals process if they do issue a fine to a guide. This
bill allows more latitude to the board, as a $1,000 fine in some
cases is not a deterrent, he explained. The board will not be
establishing a specific fine for a specific violation. The
board would, however, have more latitude to issue higher fines
if warranted, he emphasized.
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked who currently issues the fines.
Number 0760
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied that he believes it is the
Division of Occupational Licensing.
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked for clarification that part of
the problem may have existed because there was no board in place
to issue the fines. Representative Stepovich questioned the
need for higher fines.
CO-CHAIR MASEK commented that Matt Robus from the Alaska
Department of Fish and Game is available to answer questions and
may be able to respond to that point.
Number 0831
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG referred to the change in definitions
of guide to guide outfitter. He asked if guide outfitter is a
new category or simply the combination of outfit and guide.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied that the intent was to include
both categories. He explained that sometimes guides are also
outfitters, and sometimes outfitters are not guides, but are
separate. The thought in making this change is to include both
categories and a combination if they combine, he summarized.
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG restated that it is not another
category. It is both groups combined.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS clarified that there are guides,
outfitters, and guide/outfitters.
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG commented that this is another
separate category.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied no. He explained that he did not
want to see someone come forward and say that he/she was not a
guide, but a guide/outfitter.
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG summarized that change was done as a
means of clarification.
Number 1008
RON SOMERVILLE, Vice Chair, Board of Game, testified in support
of HB 442, and answered questions from the members. He referred
to a letter in the members' packet [dated March 18, 2003] in
which the Board of Game requested that the members consider
reestablishment of a Big Game Commercial Services Board.
MR. SOMERVILLE told the members that he checked with Mike
Fleagle from McGrath, who is Chairman of the Board of Game, to
clarify his personal assessment as to where he believes the
board is going in asking that the Big Game Commercial Services
Board be reconsidered. The primary interest of the Board of
Game is fostered by a couple of points, he said. The guiding,
outfitting, and air taxi industries in Alaska are legitimate
industries for a variety of reasons. He commented that they
provide a lot of services and have spread some of the economic
benefits of Alaska's wildlife throughout the state. The Board
of Game is concerned about maintaining and enhancing the
industry as a legitimate use of wildlife, Mr. Somerville stated.
MR. SOMERVILLE told the members that one problem the board has
run into relates to the guides/outfitters/transporters, and the
unregulated massive deployment of big game hunters in some areas
of the state. In some cases there are legitimate complaints by
rural residents that an area is being inundated, and there is no
mechanism to control this, he explained. For example, if there
is a complaint of air taxi operators dropping a large number of
hunters in the Kobuk River, the Board of Game can say that there
is a problem and initiate a tiered system for subsistence, but
it is difficult to get out of it, he commented. The other
option is to say that the use of aircraft will not be allowed
for the first six weeks of the season. Mr. Somerville pointed
out that penalizes local residents or legitimate guide
operators. The Board of Game does not have the authority to
single out certain segments of the transportation industry and
try to regulate it. He explained that it is difficult because
the local residents will come to the board saying that they wish
this problem to be fixed, but the board does not have the tools
to do that.
MR. SOMERVILLE acknowledged that another part of the problem is
that it is difficult to tell if the complaints are legitimate,
even though they are perceived to be legitimate. He explained
that no documentation exists so the board does not know if there
are 50, 100, 150, or 250 hunters in an area at a particular
time. If there were documentation then the board could come up
with some kind of equation on hunter pressure. This bill
doesn't address that part of the air transportation system, but
the board believes it should be part of this legislation, he
commented.
Number 1290
MR. SOMERVILLE told the members that he has spent time talking
with Rick Urion [Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,
Department of Community and Economic Development], and the
Anchorage Chamber of Commerce on this issue. He told the
committee the idea that was suggested and that he agrees with is
that some of this problem can be addressed by additional
regulations and enforcement.
MR. SOMERVILLE commented that if the members reject this bill he
suggests that the legislature look for some other way to give
Mr. Urion and staff some way to have better control of the
industries which are under the purview of the Division of
Occupational Licensing.
MR. SOMERVILLE shared that he believes the benefits of a board
are somewhat obvious if the legislation is crafted properly.
One important point is that there would be focus from people who
are interested in the industry which is being regulated. There
would be the motivation to do something about the problems
facing the industry; the expertise to do something about it; and
the result would be the development of enforcement, standards,
and ethics, he said. Mr. Somerville told the members that he
believes Mr. Urion is capable of getting all of this down on
paper, but the ability to implement it in the field would be a
matter of debate.
MR. SOMERVILLE suggested that if this legislation is crafted in
a certain way it could be an opportunity for the board to be
used in a slightly different fashion. It could be used as a
mechanism to enhance the people's use of the resource in the
rural areas for economic purposes. In other words, he suggested
that the Big Game Commercial Services Board be used to help
craft courses for people in smaller communities so they can
become class A assistant guides for instance. Mr. Somerville
suggested that the legislation be modified so that course work
could be used as a substitute for part of the requirements to
become a class A assistant guide. It would be a tremendous
benefit to an adult living in a small community who has 15 or 20
years of hunting experience and maintaining trophy animals to be
able to take a course and qualify so that he could work under a
guide. It would be a way to enhance the use of these resources
for commercial purposes, Mr. Somerville said. He told the
committee that Mr. Fleagle pointed out to him that it would be
necessary for there to be a change in attitude in some of these
small communities to accept this. Providing this opportunity is
a legitimate way to provide economic opportunities for people in
Rural Alaska, he stated.
Number 1506
MR. SOMERVILLE asked that there be some accommodation in the
bill that says if hunters or big game animals are transported
that some reporting requirements must be implemented and given
to the Board of Game. He told the members that this would help
the Board of Game in addressing some of the complaints that are
received. It would also help the enforcement staff because
there would be documentation of when someone was in the field.
In summary Mr. Somerville said that he believes this is a good
start. He said he recognizes that some of this is an
evolutionary process, but believes this is a move in the right
direction.
Number 1521
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG referred to the handout on definitions
[Sec. 08.54.790. DEFINITIONS.] in which both the guide and
outfitters are considered a service. He asked for clarification
that transporters are not considered a service.
MR. SOMERVILLE suggested that Representative Guttenberg look at
transportation services in AS 08.55.010 where it exempts air
taxi operators who take big game [hunters], incidental to their
other activities. So if transporters are doing this service for
this purpose then it would be covered, but if it is incidental
to other activities then the service would not be covered, he
explained.
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG asked if it would be the board's
intention to include transporters.
MR. SOMERVILLE replied yes. The board believes it is important
to include all air taxi operators or transporters that take
hunters and big game to ensure that some kind of reporting
requirement is met.
Number 1584
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM said that Section 23 of HB 442 would amend
Alaska statute that pertains to the waiting period for reporting
violations. It raises the number of days from 20 days to 40
days. She asked Mr. Somerville to comment on that change.
MR. SOMERVILLE suggested that she check with the Department of
Community and Economic Development on the rationale behind that
change.
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH suggested that the change in reporting
time was likely implemented in an effort to protect the
consumer.
MR. SOMERVILLE commented that one of the major purposes of the
board is to provide protection to the consumer, the industry,
and the state. He added that well-regulated wildlife
populations that are used by transporters is a benefit to us
all.
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM referred to page 2, line 4, where the makeup
of the seven members of the board are outlined. She asked Mr.
Somerville what his feelings are on the makeup of the seven
member board.
MR. SOMERVILLE commented that his personal view is that this is
a reasonable articulation of the number of people. He said that
if the bill is expanded to address more of the air taxi industry
issues then it might be important to adjust the membership
accordingly.
Number 1763
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA referred to page 11, line[s 14 though]
17, where there is a change in the revocation standard, which
reads:
(d) The board [DEPARTMENT] shall permanently revoke a
transporter license or any class of guide license if
the board [DEPARTMENT] finds after a hearing that the
license was obtained through fraud, deceit, or
intentional [INNOCENT] misrepresentation.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA pointed out that the way the law reads
now it says that the board can revoke a license if it is found
after a hearing that the license was obtained through fraud,
deceit, or "innocent" misrepresentation. The bill would change
that word to "intentional." She commented that the statutes
reads a lot more logically to her with the change in language.
Representative Kerttula asked Mr. Somerville if this was an
error.
MR. SOMERVILLE suggested that she ask someone on staff about
that point.
Number 1832
MATT ROBUS, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,
Department of Fish and Game, testified on HB 442, and answered
questions from the members. He explained that since the Board
of Game and the division work so closely together much of what
he says will sound familiar to member Somerville's presentation.
Although the three departments most involved in the transporter
and guiding industries have met, there has not yet been
consensus with respect to HB 442.
MR. ROBUS told the members that he believes this is a very
important issue. He said that over the years he has worked with
the Board of Game in its attempt to regulate wildlife
populations. He said he believes that there is at least one
important component of resource wildlife management for which
the Board of Game is not well equipped to handle. Mr. Robus
pointed out that the authority the Board of Game has and that
the department works with are focused on biological management.
When there is a biological problem it can be dealt with
effectively, he commented. When the board, with the
department's input, adjusts seasons, bag limits, methods and
means for hunting, it can and does provide for sustainable
harvests of Alaska's wildlife populations. The Board of Game
also allocates wildlife resources between users according to
provisions in several state statutes, including the subsistence
statute. These are based on the abundance of the wildlife
population and the relationship to the demand from hunters.
Number 1945
MR. ROBUS explained that when it comes to the conflicts between
different groups of hunters the Board of Game's tools are poorly
adapted because it was not originally created to handle these
issues. In many cases the conflicts are societal and not
biological. A body to regulate societal problems would be much
more successful in filling in the gap in management that
presently exists, he summarized.
MR. ROBUS said for example, one of the common conflicts that
occurs are between local and rural hunters, and non-local
hunters of all types that are brought into an area and which
impedes each others interests in hunting. These are often
related to how different groups are distributed in space and
time in the field. He explained that it often occurs below the
point where there is a biological issue that needs to be dealt
with in some kind of restriction in hunting opportunities. In
those situations the Department of Fish and Game and the Board
of Game can do little to improve the situation, he stated. The
board cannot eliminate hunter groups, like non-residents
hunters, who always seem to get the blame for problems unless
there is a real biological need to do so. Given the impacts to
the guiding industry and the revenue to the state, the
elimination of the hunter groups should not be considered a
successful solution anyway, he said.
Number 2016
MR. ROBUS told the members that for these reasons he believes it
is necessary for the state to effectively manage the activities
of big game guiding, outfitting, and the transporter industry as
a compliment to what the Board of Game is equipped to do. He
pointed out that the only pathways the Board of Game and the
Department of Fish and Game have in eliminating hunter conflicts
are draconian. It would have to eliminate a group of hunters or
a type of access, and that is not a very satisfactory solution,
he commented. Mr. Robus went on to say that the lack of good
regulatory handles on these industries has meant that the only
allocation ability available has been on the part of the federal
government on federal lands. The state has had to give up some
degree of authority on the management of hunting on federal
lands because the department lacks the authority to allocate
between the different parts of these industries, he explained.
Mr. Robus summarized that although there is not a consensus
opinion yet, he is testified today to validate the need of such
legislation.
Number 2120
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Robus how bad the conflicts
have become. She questioned whether the Board of Game will be
forced to close areas to hunting.
MR. ROBUS replied that the board is already in the middle of
those kinds of problems. The Upper Kobuk River is a good
example where in the last couple of years the board got very
close to enacting a controlled use area which would not allow
transported hunters and non-resident hunters because of the
level of conflict with local users. Since then some of that
problem shifted to other areas of the state, he commented. At
the board meeting next week the same problem will be addressed
in the Middle Kuskokwim, in units 19A and 19B, where there are a
lot of local rural users with a tradition of using the area, and
there are also both guided and unguided hunters who
traditionally have come into the area. In recent years, with
the moose populations not doing very well, the problem has
escalated into a big allocation issue, and may result in hunter
groups being excluded, Mr. Robus explained.
Number 2200
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked Mr. Robus if the fines play an
integral part in what the department is trying to achieve.
MR. ROBUS reiterated his statement that three departments have
met to come to some consensus on this. Those departments are
the Department of Public Safety, the Department of Community and
Economic Development, and the Department of Fish and Game. Even
though fish and game biologists are usually deputized to do some
enforcement, the Department of Fish and Game is not the primary
enforcement agency, he explained. Mr. Robus said that he would
defer the answer to that question to the other two departments.
Number 2260
JOE KLUTSCH, Member, Alaska Professional Hunters Association,
testified on HB 442 and answered questions from the members. He
told the members that he has lived in Rural Alaska for 32 years
as an assistant guide, owner of a small sportfishing guide
business, and has been a registered guide since 1979. In 1973
the original Guide License and Control Board was established.
Even as an assistant guide he told the members he attended
everyone of those meetings through the 1970s and into the 1980s.
It was quite a learning process that provided him with some
historical perspective on this issue. In 1989 the Big Game
Commercial Service Board was formed and he attended all of those
meetings as well, he said.
Number 2305
MR. KLUTSCH told the members that there are a number of
justifications that members of the association see in
reestablishing a board. First of all it is a public forum that
allows for interaction between all the effected parties. Not
just guides and transporters, but the land managers as well.
That has been absent for the last seven or eight years and has
caused a lot of problems. It has created a disconnect in the
enforcement and establishment of regulations, he said. Mr.
Klutsch explained that there is no substitute for this forum.
There is nowhere else to hear other people's issues and
concerns. There has been an effort to do this through phone
calls and e-mails, but it does not work, he stated.
MR. KLUTSCH pointed out another problem related to the
sunsetting of the board. When this occurred Alaska abrogated
many of its regulatory and management responsibilities to
various federal agencies such as the U.S. National Park Service,
the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and the U.S. Forest Service,
he explained. Mr. Klutsch clarified that without the board in
place federal agencies began to take it upon themselves to begin
to design permitting schemes and regulatory schemes
independently to deal with situations that they were really not
familiar with. Mr. Klutsch told the members that under the
former board's process these individuals would attend, have
their say, could hear what the other concerns were, and at the
end of the process a regulation would be developed that
reflected everyone's needs. He pointed out that when there is a
board process there is an institutional knowledge or a
continuous flow of historical background and knowledge. As the
administration changes a new director and new people come on who
do not have the background or collective memory to understand
how the board has arrived at this point and where it needs to
go, he explained. Mr. Klutsch said that a board is able to work
through the various bureaucracies and respond in a more timely
fashion. If it is done administratively the same process can
take months or years and requires tremendous effort on the part
of industry to influence the outcome of regulations.
Number 2478
MR. KLUTSCH commented that Representative Samuels did an
excellent job in covering the issue of the different agencies
that manage land. There are seven agencies in all, five state
agencies and two federal agencies. He asked the members to
remember that each of these agencies has different management
responsibilities and management statements. Mr. Klutsch
commented that it is extremely difficult for anyone to
individually deal with each of these agencies which would result
in regulations that reflect industries needs. There has been
concern over the years that more regulations have been developed
than are needed. The guiding industry does not want more
regulations, but more effective, enforceable regulations, Mr.
Klutsch stated. There has been a real absence of that in past
years, and it is the industry's hope that this bill will
accomplish those goals. He said he believes a board will be
able to accomplish these goals in a measured manner.
Number 2540
MR. KLUTSCH said in summary that he cannot overstate how
important the members of the industry and association feel the
establishment of this board is. This issue has been extensively
discussed and there is widespread support for the reinstitution
of a board. The industry wants the board to be fair and to work
effectively to maintain a proper management system in the state
of Alaska, he concluded. This legislation will defend wildlife
management and provide stability in both the guiding and
transporter industries.
Number 2579
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked if Mr. Klutsch knows why the board was
eliminated.
MR. KLUTSCH responded that there were a combination of factors.
He said he believes there was confusion on the part of some
members of the public and several legislators as to the value
and function of the board. It was perceived that the board was
misdirected and was creating unnecessary regulations which
served as impediments to the industry.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked if Mr. Klutsch believes this new
legislation would address some of those issues. How is this
bill different than what was in place before.
MR. KLUTSCH said he thinks the organization and makeup of this
board, which includes representation of guides, transporters,
and members of public, and with the input from state and federal
agencies could be far more responsive. He told the members that
the audit report was very favorable in that the prior board was
responsive and cost effective. He said he believes this board
could be an improvement over the previous board because the
results of an absence of the board is known.
CO-CHAIR MASEK invited Representatives Samuels and Fate to join
the members at the committee table.
Number 2715
PAUL JOHNSON testified on HB442 and answered questions from the
members. He told the members that he has been a guide for 30
years and a lodge owner in Southeast Alaska. He pointed out
that this industry is not one that has come forward to the state
to ask for loans, disaster relief, or advertising. The industry
has done it themselves, but what it is asking for now is
reasonable regulations so this $110 million industry can stay
viable. It is losing ground, he stated.
MR. JOHNSON commented that the Department of Community and
Economic Development cannot address the problems facing the
industry in-house. The industry is willing to pay for and do
this themselves, he stated. For example, there are problems in
one part of the state that do not exist in another part, and on-
going issues with agencies that formerly were directed to the
board where compromises were worked out, he explained. One
point that needs to be addressed is the issue of rural needs.
This bill provides for two private landholders to sit on the
board, which he believes is important as there are over 44
million acres of privately owned land in Alaska. When the board
got sunsetted it was working on including people in the economy
in rural areas. There were testings in some rural areas and in-
roads were being made. He said that it is an evolutionary
process and believes it needs to go forward.
Number 2836
MR. JOHNSON said that he believes that it is essential to have
this board's interaction with Board of Game members. He told
the members that currently there is a huge disconnect going on
between the state departments. Mr. Johnson believes problems
with transporters cannot be resolved through statute and must be
done through regulation because the issues are so complex. Mr.
Johnson said he believes that these problems are best addressed
through a board process where everyone gets a chance to have
their say.
MR. JOHNSON responded to an earlier question as to the reason
this board was sunsetted, by providing the committee with some
historical background. He said that the board got a vote of 38
to 1 vote to extend the sunset [in the Alaska House of
Representatives], and the bill was sent to the Alaska State
Senate where it was held in committee. There was never a vote
in the senate, if it had come to the floor for a vote, it would
have passed, he stated.
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN commented that is the information he was
looking for.
Number 2894
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Johnson to comment on the question
Representative Guttenberg mentioned concerning the definition of
guides versus guide/outfitter.
MR. JOHNSON explained that in territorial days the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service handled the guiding industry, then in 1972 the
guide board was established. There were a number of issues that
needed to be addressed so the legislature setup a task force.
Henry Springer was the chair. The result was that several
outfitters were grandfathered in as guide/outfitters. Mr.
Johnson commented that he realizes this is a bit confusing. He
explained that the task force put hats on different people.
Part of the problem that occurred is that during the work of the
task force a decision came down on the "common use clause"
called the Owsichek decision [Owsichek v. State Guide Licensing
and Control Board] which that raised the ire of one particular
senator. Mr. Johnson went on to say that the hats were put on,
a new board was created which expanded its purview beyond just a
guide board, it became a commercial services board that included
transporters. It also included a private landholder and the
board of game. It had an excellent audit, and it was paying its
own way, he said.
TAPE 04-6, SIDE B
Number 2976
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM asked if Mr. Johnson would be comfortable
commenting on an earlier questions she asked and referred to
page 12, line 14, where there is a change in reporting from 20
days to 40 days.
MR. JOHNSON responded that the reason for the change in days is
that those who are in the field and have two 10-day hunts, back
to back, find that the cut off days in reporting violations can
create problems. For example, if a guide comes back and reports
a violation on the 22nd day, there is an automatic fine, Mr.
Johnson added. A 40-day time period allows that extra time that
may be necessary when considering weather conditions and other
things that could happen in the field, he explained. The change
in time will not impact any investigation that may take place,
he noted.
Number 2885
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM asked Mr. Johnson what the current process is
in terms of reporting a violation.
MR. JOHNSON replied that he has never reported a violation so he
cannot honestly speak from experience. He told the members that
if there were a violation he would call the public safety
officer in Hoonah on the phone to advise him, and the officer
would come straight out.
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked Mr. Johnson how high the new
maximum fine would be under the new statute.
MR. JOHNSON said he believes it was raised to $5,000.
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH said he believes the maximum fine
before was set at $30,000.
MR. JOHNSON said he could not comment. He said that is one of
the unfortunate aspects of not having a board because if there
were one he would be better advised.
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH clarified that the board will establish
the fines at their discretion.
MR. JOHNSON said that is correct. He told the members that when
there was a board, the Department of Public Safety
representative would attended the board meetings, the board
members would interact with the department, and regulations were
established that worked in the field. All the work that went
into that task force just fell through the cracks and that is
sad, he said.
CO-CHAIR MASEK referred to an earlier question posed by
Representative Kerttula about Section 19 where the language was
changed from "innocent" to "intentional". She asked Mr. Johnson
to comment on that point.
MR. JOHNSON replied that he likes the word intentional rather
than innocent.
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that Representative Gatto has joined
the meeting at 2:04 p.m.
Number 2686
RICK URION, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,
Department of Community and Economic Development, testified in
support of HB 442 and answered questions from the members. He
thanked the guiding industry for bringing this bill forward as
the system is broken and needs to be fixed. The division has
been criticized because it is not vigorously enforcing the laws
and not fining people thousands of dollars. He told the members
that the division is absolutely hamstrung. In recent months
there have been a number of complaints against guides. Some are
probably justified and some not, but there is no way to tell
because there is no contract and nothing in writing, he
explained. It is simply a "he said versus he said" situation.
MR. URION explained that the laws are written in such a way that
it cannot be interpreted. For example, two months ago there was
a request from a guide who wanted the division to define in
writing what "in the field" means. Mr. Urion commented that it
sounds like a reasonable request; however, he is not able to do
that. In this case there is a lake with a small community and a
school at one end. This guide has a house that is located 3
miles from that community that is only accessible by boat or
plane. He lives there year-round. Mr. Urion asked if the guide
is in the field. The answer is no, he said. Three miles from
that community is a cabin and another guide who uses that cabin
only during the hunting season. Is he in the field? The answer
is yes, he stated. Mr. Urion commented that with laws like that
how can the division give any fines. The division cannot even
define "in the field."
MR. URION summarized that the system is broken and needs the
legislature's attention to fix it. The division has specific
recommendations to make it better.
Number 2574
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked for clarification on the house versus
the cabin.
MR. URION explained that he is talking about two different
guides, one who lives in a house, and the other who stays in a
cabin during hunting season. He commented that the guide's
cabin is twice as big as the other guide's house. Size does not
enter into it.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked if the house is a permanent abode. He
commented that should be the defining factor between the two.
MR. URION replied that this punishes the guy who goes out and
lives in the bush.
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF responded that he does not want to see
someone punished for living in the bush. Living in a permanent
abode can mean that an individual can get a resident fishing
license for instance. A permanent abode can be a recreational
vehicle (RV) on blocks.
Number 2498
ROBERT HARDY, registered big game guide, testified on HB 442 and
answered questions from the members. He shared that he has a
seasonal home outside of Wasilla, and lives the rest of the year
in the Talkeetna Mountains where he works as a registered big
game guide and an eco-tourism operator. Mr. Hardy told the
members that he is testifying in opposition to HB 442. He
acknowledged that there are issues with the transporter/guide
industry as it currently exists.
MR. HARDY explained that he has witnessed and suffered through
the frustration of the Board of Game process. As both a member
of the public and former member of the board he recognizes the
issues related to allocation between the two industries and
other Alaskan residents, both rural and non-rural. Mr. Hardy
said that he does not believe this issue can be addressed in the
bill as it is currently written. What occurred in the past with
the Big Game Commercial Services Board was a disfunctionality
that was brought about by a board that was largely composed of
industry peers or the "good old boys club" that benefited
itself, he stated.
Number 2374
MR. HARDY said that he does not believe this legislation is in
the best interest of the resource for other Alaskans. Without
creating something in statute that addresses the protection of
other Alaskans' interest he said he does not see the benefit of
creating a board that generates regulations for itself. He
suggested the members look at other ways to address the real
issues, such as the number of operators in the field and the
number of their clientele. Mr. Hardy suggested that to
accomplish it would be necessary to reinvent an area system
under a limited entry perspectives for the industries and then
set a board within that statute to establish regulations.
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the committee will continue to
take public testimony, and there will be additional hearings on
HB 442. She announced that the bill will be held in committee.
HB 345-CAMPSITE FEES: DISABLED VETERANS/SENIORS
Number 2274
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM announced that the next order of business
would be HOUSE BILL NO. 345, "An Act relating to fees for state
park developed campsites; and providing for an effective date."
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM told the members the HB 345, version 23 LS-
1299\A, is before the committee.
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked if there were previous amendments
to the bill.
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM replied that to her knowledge there were no
other previous amendments.
Number 2209
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO commented that the reason Representative
Stepovich asked if there were previous amendments is that as he
[Representative Gatto] was going through the materials and found
two other amendments that were labeled Amendment 1 and Amendment
2. He just wanted to verify that the amendment the members are
looking at is Amendment 1 and not Amendment 3. Representative
Gatto said he understands that Representative Fate offered the
amendments.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE replied that is correct.
The committee took an at-ease from 2:15 p.m. to 2:17 p.m.
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM clarified that there were some amendments
that were handed out during the last hearing, but they were not
adopted. She announced that the committee will move forward
with Representative Stepovich's amendment.
Number 2140
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN moved Amendment 1, labeled 23-LS1299\A.2,
Luckhaupt, 2/4/04, which reads as follows:
Page 2, lines 5 - 8:
Delete all material.
Insert "(d) The department shall issue (1) free
of charge to a disabled veteran [VETERANS] of this
country who is a resident of this state, or (2) for an
annual fee of $10 to a resident of this state who is
60 years of age or older, an annual state park
developed campsite permit."
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH commented that as a veteran a person
has paid his/her dues. He said he believes since the person is
a disabled veteran means all the more that it should not be
necessary to get more from him/her. Representative Stepovich
said he strongly supports veterans. When he thinks of a
disabled veteran he thinks that person is disabled and served so
that he can be where he is today.
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM asked if there are any objections to the
motion. There being no objection, Amendment 1 was adopted.
Number 2043
JIM POUND, Staff to Representative Hugh Fate, Alaska State
Legislature, testified on behalf of Representative Fate, sponsor
of HB 345. He proposed the that the committee address two
proposed amendments to HB 345 having to do with campsite
location. He explained that in the urban areas of Alaska
private campsites are often available. It is somewhat unfair
for the State to compete directly with these private for profit
companies, he said. Mr. Pound suggested the following amendment
be considered by the committee:
Page 1, line 9, after "to use a"
Insert "non-urban"
Page 2, line 5, after "Sec. 2"
Insert "(f) In this section "non-urban" is defined as
a state park developed campsite located outside of a
ten-mile radius of a city center."
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked what number of this amendment is.
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM replied Amendment 2.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA moved Amendment 2. [Amendment language
previously stated]
There being no objection, Amendment 2 was adopted.
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM announced that the bill will be held in
committee for additional testimony.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:20 p.m.
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