Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/14/1998 05:10 PM House RES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
April 14, 1998
5:10 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Ramona Barnes
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Joe Green
Representative Irene Nicholia
Representative Reggie Joule
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative William K. (Bill) Williams
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 341
"An Act relating to agricultural land; and providing for an
effective date."
- MOVED SB 341 OUT OF COMMITTEE
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 236(RES)
"An Act extending the termination date of the Citizens' Advisory
Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska; and providing for an
effective date."
- MOVED CSSB 236(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 262(RES)
"An Act relating to regulation of hunting and trapping, to the
definition of 'sustained yield,' and to controlled use areas."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: SB 341
SHORT TITLE: AGRICULTURAL LAND BILL FIX
SPONSOR(S): STATE AFFAIRS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
3/12/98 2843 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
3/12/98 2844 (S) RESOURCES
3/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
3/24/98 (S) RLS AT 11:45 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
3/24/98 (S) MINUTE(RLS)
3/24/98 2970 (S) RES RPT 5DP
3/24/98 2970 (S) DP: HALFORD, TAYLOR, LINCOLN,
3/24/98 2970 (S) SHARP, GREEN
3/24/98 2970 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DNR)
4/01/98 3092 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 4/1/98
4/01/98 3093 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
4/01/98 3093 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN
CONSENT
4/01/98 3093 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME SB 341
4/01/98 3094 (S) PASSED Y20 N-
4/01/98 3094 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE
4/01/98 3094 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION
4/02/98 3117 (S) RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP
4/02/98 3118 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
4/03/98 2865 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/03/98 2866 (H) RESOURCES
4/09/98 (S) MINUTE(L&C)
4/14/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
BILL: SB 236
SHORT TITLE: CITIZENS ADVISORY COM ON FED AREAS IN AK
SPONSOR(S): LABOR & COMMERCE
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
1/14/98 2194 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
1/14/98 2194 (S) RES, FIN
2/20/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
2/20/98 (S) MINUTE(RES)
3/09/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
3/09/98 (S) MINUTE(RES)
3/10/98 2806 (S) RES RPT PROPOSED COMMITTEE
SUBSTITUTE 5DP SAME TITLE
3/10/98 2806 (S) DP: HALFORD, TORGERSON, SHARP
3/10/98 2806 (S) GREEN, LEMAN
3/10/98 2806 (S) FISCAL NOTE TO SB & PROPOSED
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE (DNR)
3/27/98 (S) FIN AT 8:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532
3/27/98 3028 (S) FIN RPT 3DP 2NR (HOUSE RESOURCES
STANDING COMMITTEE)PROPOSED
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE
3/27/98 3028 (S) DP: PEARCE, PHILLIPS, TORGERSON;
3/27/98 3028 (S) NR: ADAMS, DONLEY
3/27/98 3028 (S) PREVIOUS FN (DNR)
3/30/98 (S) RLS AT 4:00 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
3/31/98 3069 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 3/31/98
3/31/98 3070 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
3/31/98 3070 (S) RES PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE
ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT
3/31/98 3070 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN
CONSENT
3/31/98 3070 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 236(RES)
3/31/98 3071 (S) PASSED Y19 N- E1
3/31/98 3071 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE
3/31/98 3071 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION
4/01/98 3096 (S) RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD READING
4/01/98 3097 (S) PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y19 N1
4/01/98 3097 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE
4/01/98 3098 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
4/02/98 2848 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/02/98 2849 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE
4/14/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
BILL: SB 262
SHORT TITLE: MANAGEMENT OF HUNTING
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) TAYLOR
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
1/27/98 2318 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
1/27/98 2318 (S) RESOURCES
2/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
2/23/98 (S) MINUTE(RES)
3/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
3/24/98 (S) RLS AT 11:45 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
3/24/98 (S) MINUTE(RLS)
3/24/98 2969 (S) RES RPT PROPOSED COMMITTEE
SUBSTITUTE 5DP 1DNP NEW TITLE
3/24/98 2970 (S) DP: HALFORD, TAYLOR, SHARP, GREEN,
3/24/98 2970 (S) TORGERSON; DNP: LINCOLN
3/24/98 2970 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO SB & PROPOSED
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE (F&G)
4/01/98 3092 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 4/1/98
4/01/98 3092 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
4/01/98 3093 (S) RES PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE
ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT
4/01/98 3093 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN
CONSENT
4/01/98 3093 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 262(RES)
4/01/98 3093 (S) PASSED Y14 N6
4/01/98 3093 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION
4/02/98 3117 (S) RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP
4/02/98 3117 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
4/03/98 2865 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/03/98 2865 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE
4/14/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
LAURA "JANEY" WINEINGER, Researcher
for Senator Lyda Green
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 125
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-6600
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for SB 341.
CAROL CARROLL, Director
Division of Support Services
Department of Natural Resources
400 Willoughby Avenue
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1724
Telephone: (907) 465-3502
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of SB 341.
ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant
to Senator Loren Leman
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 113
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2095
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for SB 236.
STAN LEAPHART, Executive Director
Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska
3700 Airport Way
Fairbanks, Alaska 99709-4699
Telephone: (907) 451-2775
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions of the committee members of
SB 236.
TINA CUNNING, State-Federal Issues
ANILCA Coordinator
Department of Fish and Game
333 Raspberry Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99518
Telephone: (907) 267-2248
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of SB 236.
MEL KROGSENG, Legislative Administrative Assistant
to Senator Robin Taylor
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 30
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3873
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for SB 262.
KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director
Division of Wildlife Conservation
Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526
Telephone: (907) 465-4190
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262.
WAYNE REGELIN, Director
Division of Wildlife Conservation
Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526
Telephone: (907) 465-4190
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262.
GABE SAM, Director of Wildlife and Parks
Tanana Chiefs Conference, Incorporated
122 First Avenue, Suite 600
Fairbanks, Alaska 99701-4897
Telephone: (907) 452-8251
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262.
TIMOTHY C. ANDREW, Director of Natural Resources
Association of Village Council Presidents
Pouch 219
Bethel, Alaska 99559
Telephone: (907) 543-3521
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262.
HERMAN MORGAN, Chairman
Central Kuskokwim Fish and Game Advisory Committee
(Address not provided)
Telephone: (907) 675-4393
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-46, SIDE A
Number 001
CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 5:10 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Masek, Green and
Dyson. Representatives Joule, Barnes and Nicholia arrived at 5:13
p.m., 5:17 p.m., and 5:24 p.m., respectively.
SB 341 - AGRICULTURAL LAND BILL FIX
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was Senate
Bill Number 341, "An Act relating to agricultural land; and
providing for an effective date."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Laura "Janey" Wineinger, staff to
Senator Lyda Green, sponsor of the bill.
Number 023
LAURA "JANEY" WINEINGER, Researcher for Senator Lyda Green, Alaska
State Legislature, stated in the bill packet there is a sponsor
statement; and letters of support from the Department of Natural
Resources (DNR), the Alaska Revolving Loan Fund (ARLF), and the
Matanuska-Susitna Borough (Mat-Su Borough).
MS. WINEINGER explained SB 109 that passed last year inadvertently
included Tract 30 at Point MacKenzie. Tract 30 has a split title
whereby the borough retained the development rights and the state
retained the agriculture rights. Senate Bill 341, therefore, would
exclude Tract 30 out of SB 109 already in law. It is a very simple
bill. It has passed the other body.
Number 057
CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON asked Ms. Wineinger whether the bill has
any bearing on Tract 30 other than to exclude it and leave the
joint ownership to other concerns.
Number 067
MS. WINEINGER replied, "Correct." There is a party interested in
buying Tract 30 from the Mat-Su Borough. The agricultural rights
will be retained, but the developmental rights to it can be
purchased by a buyer from the borough. It is similar to Tract 31,
but it was not included in the bill last year like Tract 30.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the arrival of Representative Joule.
Number 103
CAROL CARROLL, Director, Division of Support Services, Department
of Natural Resources, stated the department supports the bill.
There was a problem with SB 109 because it didn't own all of the
rights to Tract 30 and the bill would fix it.
Number 114
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON made a motion to move SB 341 from the
committee with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal
note(s). There being no objection, SB 341 was so moved from the
House Resources Standing Committee.
CSSB 236(RES) - CITIZENS ADVISORY COM ON FED AREAS IN AK
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was CSSB
236(RES), "An Act extending the termination date of the Citizens'
Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska; and providing for
an effective date."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Annette Kreitzer, staff to the Senate
Labor and Commerce Standing Committee, sponsor of the bill.
Number 129
ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant to Senator Loren Leman,
Chairman, Senate Labor and Commerce Standing Committee, Alaska
State Legislature, stated the bill extends the expiration of the
Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska for
another five years - June 30, 2003. The commission does not have
a wind-down year following its expiration, therefore, it would
cease to exist after June 30, 1998, if not extended by the
legislature. The commission is tasked with the following duties:
Evaluate federal management, operation, planning,
development for consistency with federal law and
congressional intent;
Hold hearings on the impact of federal regulations
and federal management decisions;
Make recommendations to state or federal land
agencies;
Report annually to the governor and the
legislature.
Number 148
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN asked Ms. Kreitzer whether the commission
has ever held a hearing on Secretary Babbitt's interpretation of
Title VIII of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act
(ANILCA).
MS. KREITZER replied she is not aware of any hearing. Stan
Leaphart, Executive Director of the Citizens' Advisory Commission
on Federal Areas in Alaska is online to answer any questions about
the day-to-day activities of the commission.
Number 163
STAN LEAPHART, Executive Director, Citizens' Advisory Commission on
Federal Areas in Alaska, testified via teleconference in Fairbanks.
The commission has not held a hearing on the subsistence issue
since shortly after the original federal takeover in 1990. "We had
a significantly different membership then. We held a statewide
teleconference, made a recommendation at that time - which I don't
think we would make again today - to implement--suggest a
constitutional amendment. That was the last time we have held any
sort of hearing on ANILCA, Title VIII. We've not been inactive on
the issue, rather we continue to monitor the federal program to
make sure that at least those people that qualify under the federal
program are getting a fair shake under that system."
Number 187
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether Alaska's
congressional delegation is responsive and takes recommendations
from the group.
MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." The commission has made
recommendations to the delegation on a wide range of issues. They
are not always responsive to every recommendation, but the
commission submits on a routine basis copies of its comments and
recommendations.
Number 206
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether a federal
interpretation has ever been stopped or modified with a
recommendation by the commission. "The reason I'm asking is that
to extend this for a reasonably high fiscal note--I'm just
wondering what we're getting for that in the arena that we find
ourselves in now trying to budget cut. I'm wondering what we're
getting for this kind of money. If it's just to maintain something
that has been effective or ineffectively. And, I'm just wondering
if you can show me something that we're getting for that."
MR. LEAPHART replied a lot of the issues that the commission deals
with are obscure and esoteric. The commission spends a lot of time
looking at proposed federal regulations and proposed management
plans. The commission has made some significant differences on a
number of occasions. As a new employee in 1982, the commission was
working on the issue of commercial fishing in Glacier Bay National
Park and Preserve. The commission can't say that it has solved the
issue, but there still is commercial fishing in the bay today. In
addition, the commission has helped individuals around the state to
secure permits for guiding activities in order to access cabins on
federal parks and refuges. It is a little difficult to say
conclusively where the commission has made a difference on a
particular issue, but it has made a good bit of difference on a lot
of small issues. The commission has an invaluable institutional
memory. In other words, it reminds federal agencies of their
promises made 10 to 15 years ago that they don't remember because
of personnel turnover. The commission has been very effective in
that regard.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN wondered why Representative Green was concerned
about the congressional delegation following the commission's
recommendations when they don't follow all of the legislature's
recommendations.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied that furthers his point. What do we
get for this bill? he asked.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced that Representative Nicholia has joined
the meeting.
Number 256
REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES stated, before the commission was
established in state law, there was the Federal Land Use Planning
Commission. It went by the wayside, and the citizens' commission
was established by Senator Betty Fahrenkamp when the state was
fighting ANILCA in Washington D.C. It has been an effective
committee. It puts Alaska's voice before federal agencies, and the
legislature has put very little money into it over the years. The
commission should not only continue, but it needs to be funded
adequately.
Number 303
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Representative Ogan and Hudson what has
happened since they have been members of the commission.
Number 309
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he went to a meeting this year, but had to
leave because of session duties. He knows for a fact that the
commission is very active and is needed to watch federal-state
issues.
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON replied he has not attended a meeting yet. He
just found out that he is a member of the commission. He has read
the reports submitted, however. It appears that the commission has
been advocating for the continuation of commercial and subsistence
fishing in Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve against a very
aggressive national park service - a concern of his. He intends to
get into the middle of the issue as an advocate.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he is concerned that the commission has
lost its "umph" on federal issues. He has never heard from the
group. He wondered whether it is just gliding or actively and
aggressively doing something.
Number 346
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated Representative Al Vezey indicated it
is one of the best committees that he has ever served on. It is a
very active committee, according to the public members, despite the
fact that Representatives Ogan and Hudson recently just found out
they are members.
Number 358
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Representative Barnes whether the intent
of the commission when established was to have a feedback loop from
the congressional delegation.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied there has been feedback between the
commission and the congressional delegation. In addition, the
commission doesn't just interact with the congressional delegation,
it also interacts with federal agencies. Most often, it is the
only agency that looks after the interest of the state with respect
to the federal agencies.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Leaphart whether the congressional
delegation regularly inquires about the commission's opinion and
analysis on federal legislation affecting Alaska's lands.
Number 391
MR. LEAPHART replied the commission routinely submits a copy of all
of its comments to the congressional delegation. They don't always
solicit, but the commission always provides. Sometimes there is
feedback and sometimes there isn't, but the commission always
advises the congressional delegation on its recommendations and
positions on particular issues.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Leaphart whether the congressional
delegation has always solicited the commission's views.
MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." The commission does not have a high
profile like it used to. It used to have five people on staff.
Now, he is the only staff member and works a reduced year because
of funding. The commission, therefore, is somewhat less effective
than what it used to be simply because of personnel and budget
reductions. It tries to do the best it can with what is has,
however.
MR. LEAPHART further stated there was a tremendous amount of
feedback and input on bills proposed in 1992 and 1993 on the
Glacier Bay commercial fishing issue, as well as this year. In
addition, there were extensive comments and input on Representative
Young's Wildlife Refuge Management Act passed last year that were
incorporated.
Number 422
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Leaphart whether the commission works
with other federal agencies when implementing regulation changes.
MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." He checks in with the Secretary's
office once a week in Anchorage to discuss any issues on the table.
He just reviewed a management plan for Denali National Park and
Preserve that would be a disaster, if implemented, and submitted
strong feedback to that agency. He checks routinely with both
individual unit managers, staff of the parks and refuges, and
regional offices.
Number 436
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Leaphart to put him on the list for a
weekly or at least a bi-weekly check to keep him abreast of what is
going on with the different federal regulatory agencies that the
legislature should be involved in.
MR. LEAPHART replied he would be happy to make sure he gets a copy
of the issue updates.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he would like to get a monthly phone call
from Mr. Leaphart, assuming that the bill passes.
MR. LEAPHART replied he would be happy to do that.
Number 450
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the fiscal note refers to travel and
per diem for commission members for two meetings a year. He asked
Mr. Leaphart what is done at the meetings and are they held in
Fairbanks.
Number 456
MR. LEAPHART replied the commission tries to meet in Juneau during
the session because of its legislative members. The last meeting
was on March 27, 1998. It also tries to meet in Anchorage during
the fall. Summers are too difficult for the members to try to
meet.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether there is a pretty
good membership turnout.
MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." There were 13 at the last meeting.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether the meetings are
for one or two days.
MR. LEAPHART replied the last meeting was for just one day.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the fiscal note primarily addresses
travel expenses.
MR. LEAPHART replied the travel expenses for the meeting in Juneau
were pretty substantial.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart what was accomplished at
the meeting.
MR. LEAPHART replied he could copy him on the recommendations that
were adopted. The commission adopted a letter to the director of
the USDA Forest Service opposing the road moratorium in the
national forest system. The commission also voted to support the
Bureau of Land Management's (BLM) recommendation to not designate
Squirrel River as wild and scenic. The commission also adopted to
prepare a letter to the congressional delegation asking them to
make a legislative conveyance of the remaining federal lands in the
Dalton Highway-Haul Road corridor. The commission also adopted to
write to the BLM and ask for a comprehensive review of all public
land orders still in existence in Alaska.
Number 491
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether subsistence was on
the agenda and has the commission come up with any suggestions.
MR. LEAPHART replied the commission has not addressed the
subsistence issue directly for quite sometime. At a meeting in
1996, it was decided to avoid the subsistence issue because it has
the capacity to blow up on its own, based on a recommendation by
Senator Rick Halford. As an advisory group, there is not a whole
lot it can do other than to monitor the ongoing federal program as
long as it remains in place.
Number 509
REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE suggested appointing members from the
minority because they seem to have a bit more time to attend the
meetings.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he wouldn't go into minority-member
attendance in this committee.
Number 522
TINA CUNNING, State-Federal Issues, ANILCA Coordinator, Department
of Fish and Game, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. The
department supports the continuation of the Citizens' Advisory
Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska. Although the commission
might not be able to rattle off its victories and gains, the mere
fact that it is there provides a tremendous resource for the
public. The department monitors the regulations and planning
documents as they affect the department's management authority and
the public's ability to use them. The commission is much more
effective in lobbying and working on behalf of individual public
members. For example, the commission reviewed the Chugach National
Forest Management Plan update and caught the identified 23 wild and
scenic river recommendations. The commission also monitors Title
11, access to transportation and utility regulations that went
through an extensive lawsuit. It was settled out of court
partially due to efforts of the commission working with the
Interior on access for inholders. The department also recently
provided a training on the public trust doctrine for the commission
members. The commission can provide a lot of help to the public
that the department can't advocate for directly, therefore, it is
important to keep them informed on the public trust doctrine.
Number 572
MS. KREITZER stated the commission has also been active with the
American Heritage Rivers Initiative, an issue of great concern to
many Alaskans. There were no hearings in Alaska on the initiative.
The commission did not support it and made it very clear to the
congressional delegation.
Number 583
REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA stated there are a lot of federal
areas in rural Alaska, but there aren't a lot of rural
representatives on the commission. She would like to see them
included in the future.
Number 590
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated in the past there have been a number
of rural representatives on the commission. The legislative
delegation changes every two years. The public members change
frequently as well.
Number 597
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she would just like to see the
continuation of a rural representation on the commission.
Number 599
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated the Act requires a representative from
each judicial district in the state. If that hasn't been followed,
it should be looked into.
MS. KREITZER stated the governor has a big role to play by
appointing eight members of his choice from throughout the state.
Number 610
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she intends to write to the governor
about this.
Number 611
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to
move CSSB 236(RES) from the committee with individual
recommendations and the attached fiscal note(s). There being no
objection, CSSB 236(RES) was so moved from the House Resources
Standing Committee.
CSSB 262(FIN) - MANAGEMENT OF HUNTING
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was CSSB
262(FIN), "An Act relating to regulation of hunting and trapping,
to the definition of 'sustained yield,' and to controlled use
areas."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Mel Krogseng, staff to Senator Robin
Taylor, sponsor of the bill.
Number 618
MEL KROGSENG, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Senator Robin
Taylor, Alaska State Legislature, read the following sponsor
statement:
"Senate Bill 262 restricts the department from curtailing
traditional access for hunting and trapping unless the specific
means of access is causing biological harm to a game population in
the area where the restriction is to apply; and, the recovery of
the wildlife population requires the access restriction.
"Alaska license holders are outraged by the department's adoption
of a preservationist philosophy which opposes consumptive uses by
restricting access. At the fall 1995 Board of Game meeting, the
Department of Fish and Game urged the Board of Game to close some
236 square miles to Alaska's hunters. The department's own
biologists testified that there was no biological problem, no
justification, nor actual conflict among user groups in the area.
The department's director admitted that the only issue was one
based solely on a mis-perception resulting from purposeful
misinformation and disinformation promulgated by animal rights
extremists.
"The Board of Game is now politically compromised. It has
developed a pattern of establishing 'controlled use areas' which
deny user group access without any biological justification.
Currently, there are 26 'controlled use areas' in the state and
these will effectively be grandfathered under this legislation. To
get politics out of future wildlife management decisions, the
legislature must require that all wildlife regulations be necessary
and biologically justified."
MS. KROGSENG stated the bill would also define the term "sustained
yield."
Number 641
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. Krogseng, for clarification, whether
there was a mis-justification for the department or board's action.
MS. KROGSENG replied the issue she referred to was about an area
near the McNeil River State Sanctuary. There was a recommendation
from the department to the board to restrict access for hunting
because of protests by outside animal rights activists.
Number 654
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Ms. Krogseng whether the current
controlled use areas would be grandfathered in.
MS. KROGSENG replied, "Correct." The last section of the bill says
the Board of Game "may" continue any of the current controlled use
areas that they consider necessary.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Ms. Krogseng whether the grandfather
provision would extend past the review stage.
MS. KROGSENG replied the intent of the section is for the board to
look at the existing controlled use areas and maintain those that
need to be maintained without any justification. Future controlled
use areas, however, must be biologically necessary.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Ms. Krogseng, for clarification, whether
the establishment of a controlled use area would be based on a
biological decision. The Noatak controlled use area was not
necessarily based on biology, but the interference of hunter
activity. When the western arctic caribou herd migrates south
planes buzz around them and drive them away from the hunting areas.
He wondered whether the bill would prohibit the board from deciding
on a controlled use area based on that.
MS. KROGSENG replied the original bill eliminated all controlled
use areas, but it was changed based on talking with people. The
board has used these areas as a methods and means to curtail
harvest. She reiterated the current controlled use areas will
remain in place as long as the board feels they need to be there.
The bill is written that way because some areas were established on
a temporary basis.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated the Noatak controlled use area was
established because of the interference....
TAPE 98-46, SIDE B
Number 000
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE continued. He wondered whether the board
would be curtailed from putting in a controlled use area because of
hunting interference.
MS. KROGSENG replied that would be correct in the future.
Number 009
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 3, line 4 and wondered whether it
should read "of access" rather than "to access." The bill talks
about "means of access" on page 3, line 6.
MS. KROGSENG replied she doesn't know for certain. The structure
of the subsection would change, if the term "to" is changed to
"of."
Number 049
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated in one case it means a method "to" do
something, while in the other case it means a method "of" doing
something. It is drafted correctly.
Number 059
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order.
Number 063
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he has hunted by horse a number of times in
controlled use areas. The bill says the board or department may
not restrict the use of a method or means to "access, take, or
transport game for the purpose of preferring or affecting the
quality of the outdoor experience of a person or group." It also
says the board may establish a controlled use area only if
necessary to achieve biological management goals. He wondered
whether an area getting a lot of pressure could be created because
it is affecting the game populations, not because of the quality of
a hunt.
MS. KROGSENG replied, "Correct." Trophy animals would be a
biological process. In addition, there are some 50 million acres
of non-motorized land in the state, and Senator Taylor feels that
is enough to allow for a quality hunt. The department or board
should not be restricting areas unless it is biologically
necessary. There are lots of folks who find it difficult to cart
a moose on their back, for example.
Number 141
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated closing seasons to grow horns for a
trophy is not a biological reason, but an economical reason.
Number 159
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. Krogseng what "method or means to
access, take, or transport game" means.
MS. KROGSENG replied it is aimed at preventing a closure based on
hiking or photography, for example.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated "method or means to access, take, or
transport game" means guns and bows and arrows. He wondered
whether the department or board could not restrict the use based on
a type of method to take game.
MS. KROGSENG replied that is what the bill says. She doesn't think
that is the intent, however.
Number 218
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the subsection says that the department
cannot restrict access, taking of game, or transporting it out for
the purpose of preferring or affecting the quality of the outdoor
experience. In other words, accessing, taking, or transporting
game cannot be inferior to photography, for example.
Number 228
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he has always understood method and means
of taking fish and game as the different forms of weaponry used.
Number 233
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES agreed with Representative Green's
interpretation.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he understands what Co-Chairman Ogan is
saying, but that is not the meaning in the bill. It means the
process is not going to be inferior to a camera buff or sightseers,
for example.
MS. KROGSENG stated that is the intent.
Number 256
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated subsection (3) on page 2 refers to the
sustained yield principle, and Section 2 states that the board or
department may restrict a traditional means of access if it finds
in writing that the means of access has resulted in significant
biological harm. In other words, the harm has already been done.
Number 291
MS. KROGSENG agreed it is after the fact.
Number 297
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she would like to hear from the
department. She has the same concern.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Ken Taylor from the Department of Fish
and Game.
Number 302
KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,
Department of Fish and Game, stated the bill goes far beyond the
intent conveyed in the sponsor statement. Section 1 would remove
the board's responsibility to allocate resources by restricting its
authority to adopt regulations only when necessary for the
biological management of game. Among regulations that are not
necessary for the biological management of game are bag limits,
methods and means, accommodations for disabled persons, subsistence
preferences, emergency openings to allow additional harvests,
prohibiting live capture of animals, regulations made for public
safety reasons, sale of game, and etc. He doesn't believe that is
the intent of the sponsor, however.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated in the Mat-Su Valley there is a restriction
on the type of firearm used within areas near homes. He asked Mr.
Taylor whether those types of concerns would be addressed under
this bill.
MR. TAYLOR replied, if this bill passes, those types of concerns
and a number of other restrictions would not be able to be
addressed. He cited the use of machine guns, helicopters for
access, and shooting from a moving vehicle as examples. These
restrictions are not based on biology, but necessitated by society.
There are regulations that govern hunting behavior to maintain
public acceptance of hunting, not to maintain the animal
populations. They are to ensure the equitable use of the common
resources, improve the quality of the hunt, prevent waste and
misuse of game, and ensure the general safety and welfare of
Alaskans.
MR. TAYLOR further stated Section 2 of the bill would prevent the
board from closing any area to a particular means of access after
significant biological harm has occurred when recovery is unlikely
without a restriction. There are a number of things that have to
occur before the department could respond to do something. This is
not consistent with the department's concept of sustained yield
management. Sustained yield is the attempt to prevent significant
harm from occurring by anticipating population declines and acting
to stop them. The principle of sustained yield has guided wildlife
management through the twentieth century. Therefore, it is highly
inadvisable to attempt to define it at this stage. The definition
of "sustained yield" in Section 3 would mandate a drastic and often
impossible revision to the current management practices for several
game species in the state. There is also concern about the meaning
of "high level of human harvest" within the definition of sustained
yield. Management for many species would require harvest of both
sexes, an unpopular concept among many Alaskans for Dall sheep and
moose. It would be inconsistent with the Ladue River controlled
use area and around Tok that were not established for biological
necessities. In addition, there are portions of the bill that
conflict with several statutes. He cited the subsistence and
antler-less moose provisions as examples. With all due respect to
the sponsor, there is nothing that the department can find that's
good for wildlife or its uses in the bill. The department strongly
recommends not to move the bill from the committee.
Number 398
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there aren't that many changes in the
bill, except for a few words. She asked Mr. Taylor how he can say
that there isn't anything good about the bill.
Number 406
MR. TAYLOR replied the bill puts the caveat of having to meet the
criteria of biological necessity for the management of game on all
of the existing laws. Many controlled use areas were not set for
biological purposes. Many were set for regulating hunting behavior
and ethical standards of society, for example.
Number 416
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor where the department and
board derive their powers to manage fish and game.
MR. TAYLOR replied all of the powers of the department and board
are provided for in Title 16.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor who passed the laws.
MR. TAYLOR replied the legislature.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor when a law is passed does
the department and board generally live up to its spirit and
intent.
MR. TAYLOR replied, "Yes." The department and board both work hard
to live up to the spirit of a law.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor whether the department and
board adopt regulations based on the clear face of the law. She
said, "You have no power that is derived other than from the
legislature. The only power you have is that power which we
delegate. Then you sit there and tell me, sir, how you can in good
conscience at anytime--first of all say a bill like this is not
good and secondly when there's a law clear on its face--absolutely
clear on its face--then how can you fail to live up to that law."
MR. TAYLOR stated every time that the legislature has passed a law
effecting fish and game matters the board and department have
worked to implement it. If this bill was implemented into statute,
the department would have to go through all of its game regulations
to make certain that they are consistent with the intent and
statement of the law. The way Section 1 is structured, many of the
regulations would not pass the consistency review of being
biologically necessary.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor why a bill like this is
necessary. Is it because in game management unit 13 the department
was in the process of adopting regulations that would have
prohibited motorized vehicles in an area where the law quite
specifically allows them? she asked.
MR. TAYLOR replied no regulation proposals regarding Unit 13 came
from the department. The department has maintained a consistent
position on the use of Unit 13 and across the state. Unit 13 has
been a high use area for outdoor recreation vehicles (ORV). The
department can't simply address ORV use in hunting regulations in
an area used for berry picking and mining, for example. A
simplistic approach is to say that the ORV problem is caused by
hunters. Therefore, the department recommended to the board that
the issue be deferred until it could talk to the landowners, the
BLM, and the Native corporations and put together a working group
to address the issue further.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there is a law on the book that
clearly exempts the department from sticking its nose into Unit 13
as it relates to off-road vehicles.
MR. TAYLOR stated there was an area that was established by the
legislature for ORV use in a portion of Unit 13. He is not sure if
it includes all of Unit 13, however.
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated for the record that this is just one
example where the department and board do not follow the clear face
of the law.
Number 512
WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,
Department of Fish and Game, stated the department is well aware of
the ORV regulations in Unit 13. The department had no intention of
ever passing a regulation that would circumvent the law. In fact,
in order to meet game objectives in Unit 13, ORV access is needed.
The department was willing to work with those involved because of
requests from the public in regards to snowmobiles in the winter.
It had nothing to do with hunting. The department was willing to
work on the issue and come back to the legislature if the law
needed to be changed. There weren't any proposals, except by the
public, or intent by the board or department to pass regulations.
Number 527
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Regelin why the Board of Game noticed
and solicited comments on restricting access in Unit 13 if the
department had nothing to do with it.
MR. REGELIN replied the department urged the board not to do that.
The board felt that it wouldn't get any response from the public
unless it was a regulatory meeting versus an informational meeting.
The board gave the perception that it was going to pass something,
but realized that it had opened up a can of worms that it shouldn't
have.
Number 538
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated all the board and department had to do
was look at the law, and the law says it's a motorized vehicle
area. It is due to the fact that the department promulgates
regulations that it gets a bill like this.
Number 547
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked whether there would be a fiscal impact
for biological management.
Number 555
MR. REGELIN replied, according to the Department of Law, it would
have a major fiscal impact. There would have to be a special board
meeting in order to go through any regulation that is not
biologically necessary. It would also have an economical impact on
people coming to Alaska to hunt.
Number 575
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked whether the current controlled use areas
would be grandfathered. The bill seems to be pulling at both ends.
Number 589
MR. TAYLOR replied Section 5 grandfathers the existing controlled
use areas. He would leave it to the Department of Law to determine
whether the biological necessity mandated in Section 1 would apply
to those grandfathered or not. Obviously, those established after
the effective date of the Act would have to meet the biological
management goals.
Number 596
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked what impact would this bill have on
Article VIII of the state constitution in recognizing preference
among beneficial uses, and in allocating the role of the Board of
Game to decide when and where the preferences are applied.
Number 602
MR. REGELIN replied he would defer to the Department of Law to
answer the question. As Representative Barnes reminds the
department often, the legislature provides the authority to do
things, and the board and the department don't have a conflict with
that. The legislature has delegated to the board and given it
tools to make allocation decisions, such as controlled use areas.
The board doesn't make biological decisions. The department
presents biological information to the board based on surveys,
scientific data, growth rates of herds, and goals. The current
controlled use areas were either supported or recommended by
advisory committees for a variety of reasons. The board has to
make very tough decisions without a lot of tools, and one of the
most effective tools right now is controlled use areas.
Number 639
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked Mr. Regelin to expand on the earlier
discussion of the bill giving a mixed message in regards to the
sustained yield.
Number 645
MR. REGELIN replied at the present time in fish and game biology
the term "sustained yield" is not defined. It is a concept or
principle and it doesn't lend itself easily to a specific
definition. Therefore, the Department of Law is concerned about
any definition of the term "sustained yield" in fish and game
statutes. Where it is defined in forestry related issues it
creates problems for lawsuits. This bill defines sustained yield
as a high level of human harvest. There is another bill that
defines it as a percentage of the annual catch. The two
definitions would define sustained yield as a fixed rate when every
herd and population is different. For that reason, the department
has always urged the legislature not to define the term "sustained
yield."
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he does not anticipate moving the bill out
of the committee today.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 3, line 3 - "(b) The Board of
Game or the department may not restrict the use of a method or
means to access, take, or transport game for the purpose of
preferring or affecting the quality of the outdoor experience of a
person or group." He is concerned about the term "take" and its
broad interpretation.
MR. REGELIN stated, according to the Department of Law, it would
affect all methods and means that are in effect due to safety, fair
chase standards, access, and etc.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Regelin whether the term "methods and
means" would refer to primitive weaponry, such as bows and arrows
and caliber of rifles. He asked whether that is how it is defined
in the regulations.
MR. REGELIN replied there are four or five different sections of
the regulations that define the term "methods and means" - taking
game, taking big game, unlawful methods of taking game, the use of
machine guns.
TAPE 98-47, SIDE A
Number 000
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated clearly there are some concerns
predicated by the bill. He asked the department representatives to
help with some solutions by indicating how the author's intent can
be satisfied without curtailing the use of a handicapped person,
for example.
Number 043
GABE SAM, Director of Wildlife and Parks, Tanana Chiefs Conference,
Incorporated (TCC), testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. The
bill would greatly affect the hunter pressure in controlled use
areas. There are illegal aircrafts entering the Koyukuk controlled
use area resulting in a proposal to extend it to the Kanuti
controlled use area. It was shot down because the board said there
wasn't enough information. He doesn't see how the bill will do any
good for controlled use areas. In 1996, there were 800 hunters
going into the Koyukuk controlled use area. The number was limited
in order to slow down the taking of the breeder stock. It is
starting to work, but if the controlled use area is taken away, the
results will be for nothing. The TCC is opposed to the bill.
Number 109
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sam when the Koyukuk controlled use
area was implemented. He also asked whether the local advisory
committee had any input into the implementation.
Number 118
MR. SAM replied yes the Koyukuk River Advisory Committee brought
the issue to the board. It was like a regular highway on the
Koyukuk River competing with the local hunters. It was hard to
compete with the boats and the mini-camps set up along the river.
It was also affecting the environment. The controlled use area has
done a lot. It controls the amount of hunters on the river at any
given time, and allows for a local hunting priority. If the
controlled use area is taken away, there will be chaos with law
enforcement.
Number 162
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated in some controlled use areas hunters
are not limited, but the access is limited. She wanted to make
sure that was clear for the committee members.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he hunts with horses in controlled use
areas for a quality hunt. In regards to controlling the breeder
stock, the bill does not prevent the board from implementing a
controlled use area for biological reasons.
Number 190
TIMOTHY C. ANDREW, Director of Natural Resources, Association of
Village Council Presidents (AVCP), testified via teleconference in
Bethel. There is no denying that the state is undergoing extremely
trying times for fish and game management. Increased pressure and
conflicts among user groups both inside and outside Alaska is
rampant. Air transporters are saturating areas with mass-marketing
with little or no concern for resource depletion. They simply move
on or accept that the abundance is over. Increased amounts of
rotting meat are observed at village airports when no one is being
held responsible. Legislation such as this only furthers the
shambles and divisiveness being romped through the lack of an
appropriate response. Senate Bill 262 raises substantial questions
and serious concerns by preventing the Board of Game from carrying
out one of its basic responsibilities and primary reason for being
created. The results begs the question of whether the sponsor and
supporters of the bill are silent partners of the animal rights
fanatics. The measures to address predator control problems would
be even further restricted since they are seldom "biologically
necessary." The existing intensive management law would be
directly contradicted since it is not "biologically necessary."
Section 2 flies directly in the face of the sustained yield
principle embodied in the state constitution. The reference to the
word "balloon" in Section 2 indicates somebody believes balloons
are used as a traditional means of access to go hunting when it is
difficult and practically unimaginable. But, it would be a
statutory directive. The AVCP strongly encourages the committee
members to reject the bill or at a minimum hold it until it has
been amended to reflect what any reasonable person would presume to
be its true purpose.
Number 271
HERMAN MORGAN, Chairman, Central Kuskokwim Fish and Game Advisory
Committee, testified via teleconference in Aniak. The central
Kuskokwim would be adversely affected by the bill. There is a huge
increase of resident and nonresident sport hunters accessing the
area by plane increasing the potential for competition and
conflicts between resident and nonresident hunters. A lot of the
resident hunters use moose to feed their families. Because there
isn't an aircraft restriction in the central Kuskokwin area, moose
hunting will be concentrated in non-controlled use areas leading to
biological emergencies. More pallets of rotting meat will be seen
and no one will be held responsible. How can there be a quality
outdoor experience if there aren't any moose? he asked. Controlled
use areas are established for a reason and the bill would take away
an important tool for the board.
Number 305
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked Mr. Morgan whether there is a moose
shortage in his area, and whether he is working with the Department
of Fish and Game on that issue.
MR. MORGAN replied there aren't a lot of moose around the McGrath
area, but there are a lot of wolves. The predators are really
increasing and once the moose reach below a certain point it's hard
to bring them back up. We tried to initiate a controlled use area
around Sleetmute on the Holitna River because that's where a lot of
local hunters hunt moose by boat and it's not right to compete with
other hunters, especially when a lot of the meat would go to waste.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the bill will be held over.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN recessed the meeting to the call of the chair at
6:58 p.m.
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