03/19/1998 01:15 PM House RES

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled

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HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE March 19, 1998 1:15 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair Representative Ramona Barnes Representative Fred Dyson Representative Joe Green Representative William K. (Bill) Williams Representative Reggie Joule MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Irene Nicholia COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 364 "An Act requiring nonresident hunters to be accompanied when hunting moose; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED CSHB 364(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE * HOUSE BILL NO. 414 "An Act relating to management of game and to the duties of the commissioner of fish and game." - HEARD AND HELD (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 364 SHORT TITLE: GUIDES FOR NONRESIDENT MOOSE HUNTERS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) IVAN Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 01/28/98 2154 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)

01/28/98 2154 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE 03/10/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 03/10/98 (H) MINUTE(RES) 03/19/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 BILL: HB 414 SHORT TITLE: MANAGEMENT OF GAME SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) KELLY Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 02/16/98 2331 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 02/16/98 2331 (H) RESOURCES 03/10/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 03/10/98 (H) MINUTE(RES) 03/19/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER REPRESENTATIVE IVAN M. IVAN Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 418 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4942 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 364. TOM WRIGHT, Legislative Assistant to Representative Ivan M. Ivan Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 418 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4942 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 364. ROD ARNO, President Alaska Outdoor Council 211 4th Street, Suite 302A Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 463-3830 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 364 and HB 414. GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison Office of the Commissioner Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Telephone: (907) 465-6143 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 364 and HB 414. GILBERT HUNTINGTON (Address not provided) Telephone: (907) 656-1435 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 364. TED KRIEG Bristol Bay Native Association P.O. Box 310 Dillingham, Alaska 99576 Telephone: (907) 842-5257 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 364. VIRGIL UMPHENOUR 878 Lynwood Way North Pole, Alaska 99705 Telephone: (907) 456-3885 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 364 and HB 414. PETER SHEPHERD 1012 Galena Street Fairbanks, Alaska 99709 Telephone: (907) 474-4683 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 364. JOE WANT P.O. Box 1004 Fairbanks, Alaska 99710 Telephone: (907) 457-4736 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 364. GABE SAM, Director of Wildlife and Parks Tanana Chiefs Conference, Incorporated 122 First Avenue Fairbanks, Alaska 99701 Telephone: (907) 452-8251 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 364. HERMAN MORGAN (Address not provided) Telephone: (907) 675-4393 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 364. BRUCE CAMPBELL, Legislative Assistant to Representative Pete Kelly Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 411 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-2327 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement on HB 414. REPRESENTATIVE PETE KELLY Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 411 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-2327 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 414. DAVE LACEY 214 2nd Avenue Fairbanks, Alaska 99701 Telephone: (907) 452-7162 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 414. SEAN McGUIRE 351 Cloudberry Lane Fairbanks, Alaska 99709 Telephone: (907) 479-7334 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 414. KEVIN SAXBY, Assistant Attorney General Natural Resources Section Department of Law 1031 West 4th Avenue, Suite 200 Anchorage, Alaska 99501-1944 Telephone: (907) 269-5100 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 414. STEVE BEHNKE, Executive Director Alaska Wilderness, Recreation and Tourism Association P.O. Box 22827 Juneau, Alaska 99802 Telephone: (907) 463-3038 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 414. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-35, SIDE A Number 0001 [DUE TO TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES THE TAPE IS VERY DIFFICULT TO HEAR] CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing Committee meeting to order at 1:15 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Masek, Dyson and Williams. Representatives Green, Barnes and Joule arrived at 1:23 p.m., 1:24 p.m., and 1:27 p.m., respectively. HB 364 - GUIDES FOR NONRESIDENT MOOSE HUNTERS CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was House Bill Number 364, "An Act requiring nonresident hunters to be accompanied when hunting moose; and providing for an effective date." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Representative Ivan M. Ivan, sponsor of the bill. Number 0085 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN M. IVAN, Alaska State Legislature, explained there is a proposed committee substitute, version 0-LS1455\B, Utermohle, 3/19/98. The proposal was brought forward because moose is considered a main food supply and a lot of his constituents are concerned with how it has been taken care of. There are three major changes in the proposed committee substitute. The first change requires transporters to contact their clients at least once every three days while the clients are in the field - Section 1. The transporter must take the game out of the field before waste or spoilage can occur. The second change adds the failure of a transporter to knowingly not comply with Section 1 as an unlawful act - Section 2. Sections 3 and 4 add the penalties. The third change requires a nonresident to complete a moose hunting orientation course offered by the Department of Fish and Game before obtaining a moose tag, unless the nonresident shows proof that the hunt will be conducted by a guide. The course is not mandatory for resident hunters. The proposed committee substitute deletes the earlier provisions requiring a nonresident to be accompanied by a guide. The proposed committee substitute is a step towards getting the wanton waste of moose meat under control. Number 0398 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Representative Ivan whether he has contacted the transporter industry and are they aware of the changes. Number 0420 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN replied they have not been contacted. Number 0433 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether the bill was patterned after the guiding laws that require contact every three days. Number 0450 TOM WRIGHT, Legislative Assistant to Representative Ivan M. Ivan, Alaska State Legislature, stated after talking with George Utermohle, bill drafter; and Eddie Grasser, Legislative Assistant to Representative Beverly Masek, the big concern is transporters leaving clients in the field for a long period of time. If a moose is killed on the first day there is a chance of wanton waste. Three days, therefore, would give sufficient time to prevent the meat from going to waste. Number 0522 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON noted that the fiscal note does not relate to the most recent version of the bill. MR. WRIGHT replied, "Correct." CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Wright whether he has talked to the department in regards to the fiscal note. MR. WRIGHT replied yes, after talking with the department, the fiscal note will change substantially. MR. WRIGHT further stated, at the last hearing, there was discussion about the legality of requiring nonresidents to be guided on a moose hunt. According to Mr. Utermohle, there is a strong legal argument for conservation purposes. Wyoming is the only other western state that requires a guided hunt for certain species. Wyoming requires guides for nonresident hunters in specific areas of the state for the purposes of proper game management, protection of hunter welfare and safety, or better enforcement of fish and game laws. Number 0753 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN made a motion to adopt the proposed committee substitute for HB 364, version 0-LS1455\B, Utermohle, 3/19/98. There being no objection, it was so adopted. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced he is concerned because the proposed committee substitute is a major departure from the original bill. Number 0810 ROD ARNO, President, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), testified in Juneau. He has also been a guide in Alaska for 33 years. It looks like the concerns of the AOC have been adequately addressed in the work draft. If there was adequate enforcement in the field, wanton waste would not be a problem. There are plenty of laws on the books. Adding transporters and making them responsible for wanton waste will help alleviate a lot of the problems. "As far as the lost revenue to the state, I would say that's something that in the long-term will be overcome because what we'll be doing with nonresident hunters is then the state of Alaska will be able to retail this wildlife resource instead of getting it to where we can just increase numbers of nonresident which causes allocation problems. And that in the foreseeable future with the fact that nonresident hunters haven't increased in the last 22 years, and today one-third of the nonresident hunters are guided, that if this helps out the guide outfitter industry, and if it does help out the air taxis to not loose any more ground to control use areas it will be in everyone's best interest." Number 0990 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES asked whether the new language would exclude a cousin from taking her hunting as is allowed for the other guided species. Number 1049 MR. WRIGHT stated he does not believe so. He would look into it further. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Wright to explain the changes in the bill. Number 1167 MR. WRIGHT explained Section 1 would require transporters to contact clients at least once every three days while the clients are in the field and would have to take the meat out of the field before waste or spoilage could occur. MR. WRIGHT explained Section 2 would add the failure of a transporter to knowingly not comply with Section 1 as an unlawful act under AS 08.54.720. MR. WRIGHT explained Sections 3 and 4 would incorporate penalties for the failure to comply. MR. WRIGHT explained Section 5 would add a new paragraph to AS 16.05.050, "Power and duties of commissioner." MR. WRIGHT explained Section 6 would require a nonresident to complete a moose hunting orientation course offered by the Department of Fish and Game before obtaining a moose tag, unless the nonresident shows proof that the hunt will be conducted by a guide. MR. WRIGHT stated, in reference to Representative Barnes' question, it would require all kindred to go through the course. MR. WRIGHT explained the next change would delete the provisions to require a nonresident to be accompanied by a guide for a moose hunt. "There were numerous objections by the department as you can read in the fiscal note, and that we're trying to come up with something that's more fiscally conservative. Something that will hopefully be a step in the direction to reduce wanton waste in the field albeit put some responsibility on those who are doing the transporting to make them somewhat responsible for actions, for failure to comply, for failure to get meat out, so on and so forth." Number 1300 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she would not have voted the bill out of the committee the way it was. She wondered whether it would affect the section in statute that allows a resident to take a nonresident relative up to the second degree of kindred hunting. REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE wondered whether he could take his nephew from Oklahoma hunting, or would he be required to take the course. Number 1382 MR. WRIGHT replied it his understanding that Representative Joule's cousin would be required to take the course. He would concur with Legislative Legal Services to make sure, however. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Geron Bruce from the Department of Fish and Game to answer the questions. Number 1400 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Fish and Game, stated the section in statute that Representative Barnes is referring to allows a nonresident relative to hunt for species that would normally require a big game guide. The bill would change a separate part of the statute, but it is confusing and ambiguous so he cannot answer the question definitely. It is something that should be cleaned up. Number 1435 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated it seems the way it is written that a nonresident cannot hunt for moose unless accompanied by a guide. The same latitude should be given to nonresident hunters that is given to nonresidents who hunt for the other species. Number 1466 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated he does a lot of hunting just like everybody else in the room. He chooses not to get a guiding license, but that does not make him any less capable of being able to take a close relative hunting. MR. WRIGHT stated he would be glad to address the issue. Number 1497 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered, if his brother-n-law's friend came to hunt, would the friend have to take the course. What if he lived in a remote area and the plan was to go hunting immediately upon his arrival? he asked. Number 1525 MR. WRIGHT stated everybody who comes to the state normally goes through Anchorage or Fairbanks. He might have to plan his trip a day earlier to take the course. Another day is not going to make that much difference. Number 1544 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, if nonresidents are required to be accompanied by a guide, why make them go through a course. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied a nonresident doesn't have to go through the course if accompanied by a guide. Number 1560 MR. WRIGHT stated the guide is responsible for a client's actions out in the field. If a client shoots a sub-legal animal, the guide is apt to lose his license and not be able to participate as a guide for a number of years. Number 1604 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated a friend can't go hunting unaccompanied for sheep, bear or goat now. Number 1630 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES wondered about a friend coming from the Lower Forty-Eight and trying to catch a tight connection to Kotzebue, for example. It would mean that he would have to stay over night in a hotel to take the orientation course and catch the plane the next day. It seems like it would be a hardship for people coming to the state to hunt. Number 1675 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated it is a good point. Number 1680 MR. ARNO stated, in reference to Representative Barnes' question, the language on page 5, line 23, "or", would not change the nonresident hunting big game section in statute. The second degree of kindred remains in place. Number 1710 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied she understands that it remains in place, but the bill does not reference second degree of kindred. Number 1744 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated there are some technical problems with the bill. Number 1772 MR. WRIGHT wondered, for clarification, whether the provision on second degree of kindred for brown bear, sheep, and goat needs to be put in place. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied, "Correct." MR. WRIGHT stated that is not a problem. Number 1808 GILBERT HUNTINGTON testified via teleconference in Galena. It is right to add moose to the big game regulations on brown bear, sheep and goat. It will put more meat on the table for folks in rural Alaska and clean up a lot of the headaches. The state might lose some money in the short run, but money will be made in the guiding industry. More than anything else, this bill will help the subsistence issue because everybody eats moose as their main meat for the whole year. It will be easier for rural residents, and better for the state in general. Number 1918 TED KRIEG, Bristol Bay Native Association (BBNA), testified via teleconference in Dillingham. The main thing the bill will help accomplish is the wanton waste issue, something the villages have been talking about for many, many years. The BBNA supports the bill 100 percent. The meat doesn't seem to be a concern of hunters in King Salmon and Dillingham. He has seen bags of meat dropped off at the airport expecting somebody to pick them up. It is not right. He is seeing more and more unguided hunters dropped off by air taxis. It seems almost unregulated. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all to have a guide be responsible and to make sure that these people aren't getting an animal too big to handle. In addition, a lot of times commercial air taxis drop people off in customary and traditional hunting areas and squeeze out the local subsistence hunters. The main point is to stop wanton waste. Number 2045 VIRGIL UMPHENOUR testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He is a registered hunting guide and a member of the Board of Fisheries. As a member of the board, he hears concerns in the rural areas of unregulated competition with the subsistence users in their backyards for both fish and game. The bill is taking a step in the right direction. It makes the transporters, air taxis, and sport fish lodge owners, which act as air taxis and transporters, responsible for the actions of their clients. He also owns a fish and meat processing plant in Fairbanks, and has seen bags of meat brought to him full of maggots, but no law was violated. As a registered guide, he hunts in game management units 21D and 24. Last year, there were 108 nonresident hunters in unit 21D and only 2 were his clients yet there were 75 moose taken. There is a lot of illegal guiding. If a guide is smart, the majority of his assistant guides would be from villages, in order that the meat is distributed for subsistence purposes. The Board of Fisheries closed sport fishing for rainbow trout on the Kanektok River - what used to be the premium rainbow trout fishing river in the world - in November because of the unregulated amount of people being dropped off. The state needs a board to regulate all guides that affect the wildlife - fishing, hunting, and photography. Number 2216 PETER SHEPHERD testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He is a graduate wildlife biologist, big game guide, and trapper with nearly 47 years of experience. The bill should address several symptoms of a resource conservation problem resulting from political, social and management actions over several decades - a subsistence priority, the deregulation of the air taxi industry, and a hands-off wildlife management philosophy. The solutions to the problems are difficult and may antagonize many interest groups, but in order to maximize economic, recreational, and subsistence values they need immediate attention. Many guides are genuinely concerned about wildlife conservation, resource-use conflicts, impacts on land use, meat salvage, and regulatory double standards. Conversely, the Department of Fish and Game's position paper downplays the waste issue, threatens revenue loss, fears a legal challenge of the entire resident guide requirement law, and ignores the growing possibility of a conservation problem. Wanton waste to any degree should not be acceptable. The department's point that wanton waste is not specific to nonresident hunters is accurate, but fails to recognize that most - 75 percent - are unaccompanied, drop-off clients with no experience in packing, handling, or preserving large amounts of game meat. The department is also patently incorrect when it says the nonresident guide requirement for brown bear, grizzly bear, Dall sheep, and mountain goats is based on safety. Title 16 mandates that the legislature must determine the requirement is for conservation first then safety. Under the department's viewpoint, it may not be long before someone challenges the guide requirement law. The department may not consider a 50-inch-moose-antler requirement difficult to judge for nonresidents when the areas where the antler requirement affects residents, there seems to be a problem with undersize and illegal moose kills. One area is the Kenai Peninsula. Hunters are overly concentrated in game management units where moose are still relatively abundant - Units 19, 21, and 17. Nonresident moose hunters are being dropped off in the few areas accessible to village hunters directly competing with local residents. Bull moose populations and the lack of hunting opportunities facing urban areas has led to increased expansion of game management units which eventually will not be capable of sustaining the increased hunting pressure without active game management. The greatest change in the big game hunting industry has been the proliferation of transporter operators with virtually no regulatory restraints. In particular, drop-camp operators are not required to count for salvage of meat, camping fees, and field mileage for nonresident hunters. Personally, he has all the moose and other hunts that he can handle. He has to turn away clients every year. Many of his clients first hunted in Alaska with a drop-camp experience and found it unsatisfactory. He spends up to $25,000 per year on air charters, seat fares, freight haul, super cub time, and meat dispersement to two different villages. His clients contribute another $20,000 on seat fares, charters, meat hauls, and antler transports. Combined expenditures paid to air taxi services amount to about what a drop-hunt costs. A conversion to guided hunts would, therefore, not cost too many undue losses to the transporters. In conclusion, moose are a highly valued resource... TAPE 98-35, SIDE B Number 0000 MR. SHEPHERD continued. Moose are a highly valued resource with virtually no active management. This leads only a small segment of many remote moose populations available for harvest. Under these conditions, nonresident participation should be cautiously limited and even more so as urban and rural residents' demands increase for game. Number 0032 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated most people know that she has been here a long-time. She has sat through more guide and air taxi discussions than she can remember. "But I do know that when it was stated that the department's position on moose was their position that...that is absolutely not correct. It is the position of this legislature and has been for the last 20 years. And the reason being, is because of just exactly the reason why we have classified certain animals under the big game guide statute. We had to be very careful when we did that because of the Interstate Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution allowing people to go between the states and to be able to access game between the states and not to require a guide for those species that were not dangerous to take. And it has always been stated that moose did not fall within that category. Now, don't think that it is a position of the department rather than it has been the position of this legislature ever since I have been here. Thank you, Mr. Chairman." Number 0110 JOE WANT testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He has been working in guide camps since 1958. He got his assistant guide license in 1962 and has been a registered guide since 1964. In reference to requiring a guide for hunting moose, he had serious concerns even though he is in the industry. He strongly supports the amended version of the bill, especially if second degree of kindred is included. The bottom-issue is the use of the resource - the value of the animal for its meat. In general, the meat from these animals is not being used to the level that is should be. He suggested a mechanism to make it more profitable to salvage the meat than to leave it in the field. Under the current system and given the cost of transportation, it is cheaper to leave the meat than it is to pay for the extra charter. He suggested charging $1,400 for a nonresident moose tag, and once the individual has demonstrated that the meat has been salvaged, he receives a refund of $1,000. The $1,000 would make it more feasible to spend $500 on the extra cost of a charter than to leave it in the field. Number 0276 GABE SAM, Director of Wildlife and Parks, Tanana Chiefs Conference, Incorporated (TCC), testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. The TCC supports HB 364 for subsistence purposes. There are too many hunters out there and the nonresident hunters don't know where they are and shoot anything they see, especially near the Koyukuk River. They also don't know how to take care of the meat so there is a lot of wanton waste. There are a lot of subsistence fish camps on the Koyukuk River and the nonresident hunters take things from the camps without asking. They vandalize and trash them as well. There are hunters being dropped off in control use areas. There is no proof right now, but there are plans to place video cameras in certain areas to take pictures of these events. Number 0414 HERMAN MORGAN testified via teleconference in Stoney River. The purpose of the bill is being gutted by taking out the guide requirement. The guides advertize on the Internet so it will be even worse next year. He is surprised that the animal rights activists are not involved. Rural Alaska is not trying to stop moose hunting, but asking the legislature to do something about the problem of wanton waste. "You guys say listen to us, but you know, I hope, by leaving the guided thing on there you are listening to us." Number 0506 MR. BRUCE stated Wayne Regelin and Ken Taylor are unavailable right now, but they have been talking with the sponsor, and the changes made are responsive to the concerns of the department. In reference to the issue of the inconvenience of the hunting orientation course, the department thinks that modern technology such as the Internet can be used to try to minimize the inconvenience. Number 0550 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the department currently has a video that it produced on judging an illegal animal. He asked Mr. Bruce whether there could be something like that on the Internet to brief people before coming to the state. He asked Mr. Bruce how the department visualizes the problem of a hunter coming to the state and immediately flying to Kotzebue on short notice. Number 0604 MR. BRUCE replied ideally with an advance notice the test could be administered over the Internet or in written form. The details will have to be worked out. The department is willing to work to try to minimize the issue of inconvenience. "Yes, there are lots of things you can do with technology, but there still are going to be some people who probably are going to fall through the cracks and it is going to be inconvenient for them." The department would do its best to minimize that, however. Number 0647 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES wondered about accessing a pay-per-view video in the airport or something along those lines. MR. BRUCE replied technology like a kiosk is available, but there would be costs associated with it. Number 0684 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there almost needs to be a delayed effective date to allow the department to put something like that into place in the airports. "You know most--even all the rural airports, for example, have a place where you can go in and use whatever technology is available to you and usually pay a small fee for it. That ought to be someway to cover your costs." MR. BRUCE replied it could be worked out. "It's possible that when this started up there might be a little rougher beginning than as we got more experienced with it and...and improved our ability to deliver the kind of services your talking about." Number 0727 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated just about everyone that comes to Alaska goes through Seattle. Of course, there would be a capital request to put a kiosk in place. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, currently, to qualify for bow hunting in certain areas the private sector provides courses. It is turning into a regular cottage industry in some areas. There are one or two archery businesses in the Mat-Su Valley. His biggest reservation about the bill is the problem of how to accommodate out-of-state hunters. MR. BRUCE replied the department is willing to try and make it work. There will be some rough spots in the beginning, but there are benefits to be gained by it. The Internet is a rapidly expanding tool and the department's web page gets a lot of hits. Number 0864 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Representative Ivan and stated there has been quite a bit of discussion on relatives hunting with residents. Number 0911 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN stated, if further work needs to be done on the bill, he can work with Legislative Legal Services. MR. WRIGHT stated Representative Ivan has not had a chance to look over the conceptual amendment that has been written. It reads as follows: Page 5, line 25, after "under As 08.54." Insert "or personally accompanied by a resident over 19 years of age who is (A) the spouse of the nonresident; or (B) related to the nonresident, within and including the second degree of kindred, by marriage or blood." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked if there is any discussion on the conceptual amendment. It looks like it will do what the committee members have been discussing. Number 0951 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion to adopt the conceptual amendment with the caveat that the rest of the bill is cleaned up by the drafter. There being no objection, it was so adopted. Number 0987 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Co-Chairman Ogan whether the issue of how people view the movie will be addressed in the bill, or will it just pass out of the committee like it is. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the department has indicated it is willing to work on it. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she is concerned about someone coming to the state to hunt before it has been worked on. Number 1049 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Representative Barnes whether she is suggesting language to achieve that. Number 1056 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied she really doesn't know how to achieve that. She will not object to moving the bill out as it is, but will trot along behind it to see that it gets fixed somewhere along the way. Number 1077 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated it is an important area, but not important enough to slow the bill down. It is a new concept and nobody really knows how it will work, including the department. He suggested getting something in writing from the department to get an idea and understanding of how it will be implemented. Number 1112 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she would like something to delay the effective date to give the department a chance to work it through and for a fail-safe. Number 1134 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion and asked unanimous consent to move the proposed committee substitute for HB 364, as amended, version 0-LS1455\B, Utermohle, 3/19/98, from the committee with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal note(s). There being no objection, CSHB 364(RES) was so moved from the House Resources Standing Committee. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON noted for the record that the attached fiscal note is for the original version of the bill. A new one should be requested from the department as it is transmitted to the next committee of referral. HB 414 - MANAGEMENT OF GAME CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was House Bill Number 414, "An Act relating to management of game and to the duties of the commissioner of fish and game." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Bruce Campbell, staff to Representative Pete Kelly, sponsor of the bill. Number 1230 BRUCE CAMPBELL, Legislative Assistant to Representative Pete Kelly, Alaska State Legislature, read the following sponsor statement: "House Bill 414 provides guidance for management of game resources in Alaska. The bill requires the Board of Game to establish game population and harvest objectives to promote a high level of harvest by humans. "House bill 414 establishes the preferences among beneficial uses of game resources. Personal and family use for human consumption is the highest and best use of game, commercial use, including trapping and guiding are next, and the last preference is for nonconsumptive commercial or noncommercial use of game." MR. CAMPBELL urged the committee members to work with the original version of the bill (0-LS1437\F), not the proposed committee substitute. Number 1289 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KELLY, Alaska State Legislature, stated the Eighteen Alaska State Legislature enacted the intensive game management bill directing the department to manage game in much the same way as it manages fish - for abundance. Since that time, there has been difficulty getting the department and board to work together to achieve that end. REPRESENTATIVE KELLY stated Section 2 of the bill would set harvest levels. It reads as follows: "(h) The Board of Game shall establish population and harvest objectives and adopt other regulations to promote a high level of harvest by humans of big game prey populations." REPRESENTATIVE KELLY stated, to ensure cooperation between the department and the board to achieve the harvest objectives, the following language has been added on page 2, line 28: "(b) If a board delegates authority to the commissioner to act on its behalf, the commissioner shall cooperate with and assist the board by implementing regulations, management plans, and other management programs as requested by the board." REPRESENTATIVE KELLY stated the bill would also set preferences amongst beneficial uses, as referred to in the constitution. The language reads as follows on page 3, starting on line 7: "Sec. 16.05.911. Preferences among beneficial uses of game. The highest and best use of game is personal and family use for human consumption. The other beneficial uses of game, in order of preference, include "(1) commercial use, including trapping and guiding; and "(2) nonconsumptive use, for commercial and noncommercial purposes." REPRESENTATIVE KELLY stated in the past subsistence has been a priority amongst consumptive uses, but it has not be prioritized when it comes to nonconsumptive uses. Number 1488 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to adopt HB 414, version 0-LS1437\F. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN objected for discussion purposes. He asked Representative Kelly whether it is the intent to ultimately go to version "H." REPRESENTATIVE KELLY replied, "No." REPRESENTATIVE GREEN removed his objection. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there is any further objection. There being no further objection, it was so adopted. Number 1551 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to adopt Amendment 1. It reads as follows: Offered in the House Resources Committee Page 2, line 22 After: "by humans of" Insert: "identified" Page 3, line 8 Delete: "human consumption" Insert: "food" CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease at 2:38 p.m. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order at 2:39 p.m. Number 1636 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN objected for discussion purposes. He asked Representative Kelly whether deleting the language "human consumption" and inserting the language "food" would open it up to dog food or other things. REPRESENTATIVE KELLY replied he hadn't thought about dog food. It is a more straight forward way of describing the purpose of the resource. Number 1673 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Representative Kelly whether there is any other reason for changing the language. REPRESENTATIVE KELLY replied, "No." It is strictly for edification. Number 1712 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she is a believer of putting words into statute that people can identify with. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied that's the problem. The word "food" invites misunderstanding because there are some places where Alaskans take resources like fish and turn it into dog food. He is concerned it will open it up to something else other than human consumption. Number 1786 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN agreed with Representative Green. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to divide the question. There being no objection, it was so divided. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there is any objection to adopt the portion of the amendment to page 2, line 22. It reads as follows: Page 2, line 22 After: "by humans of" Insert: "identified" REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS asked Representative Kelly to explain the amendment. Number 1867 REPRESENTATIVE KELLY stated he doesn't want the department to worry about achieving objectives for populations that are not necessarily important to hunters. Number 1907 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there is any objection to adopt the portion of the amendment to page 2, line 22. There being no objection, it was so adopted. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there is any objection to adopt the portion of the amendment to page 3, line 8. It reads as follows: Page 3, line 8 Delete: "human consumption" Insert: "food" REPRESENTATIVE GREEN objected for discussion purposes. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN made a motion to amend the amendment to delete the word "consumption" and insert the word "food." Number 1948 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS stated he doesn't see anything wrong with the language, "The highest and best use of game is personal and family uses for food." There are areas that use it for dog food and use the dogs to get around. Number 2011 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the language could cause problems. He cited False Pass and the controversy of using chum salmon to feed dogs and its impact on commercial fishing while there are other places who use it for food. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER stated the bill doesn't talk about fish. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN removed his objection. REPRESENTATIVE KELLY stated there are regulations that specifically address the using of moose and caribou to feed dogs. Number 2093 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated that he is concerned about the loophole that the bill presents, unless it specifically says "human consumption." Number 2125 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES pointed out that the bill is only talking about game, not fish. A person who cooks some moose and wants to feed his dog the leftovers would get into trouble. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he doesn't want to set a precedent to allow people to feed their dogs scraps. There are regulations pertaining to that. He suggested calling on Geron Bruce from the Department of Fish and Game for further clarification. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN withdrew his amendment to the amendment. Number 2194 REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK stated she has 45 dogs and gets calls from hunters who have leftover meat and bones to feed them. She would hate to see that stop because the dogs love it. Number 2235 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Fish and Game, stated he can't cite the regulations off the top of his head, but he can get back to him on it. Number 2265 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he read the bill wrong. He removed his objection again. Number 2306 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON called for the question. A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Barnes, Green, Joule, Masek, Williams and Hudson voted in favor of the motion. Representatives Dyson and Ogan voted against the motion. The amendment to page 3, line 8 was adopted. Number 2435 ROD ARNO, President, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), testified in Juneau. The AOC supports HB 414. The AOC has been trying to give guidance to the Department of Fish and Game when it comes to abundance prior to SB 77. TAPE 98-36, SIDE A Number 0000 MR. ARNO continued. Section 2 will be an advantage for the state where there is a mandate for subsistence on federal public lands. There is nothing in the federal mandate to manage for an abundance, only healthy populations. In the long run, state lands maybe more advantageous to people as areas for consumptive uses. It is also important to recognize the commercial use of trapping and guiding and nonconsumptive uses found in Section 4. Number 0171 VIRGIL UMPHENOUR testified via teleconference in Fairbanks in support of HB 414. [THE REST OF HIS TESTIMONY IS INAUDIBLE] Number 0252 DAVE LACEY testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He opposes the bill. It is a slap in the face for the visitor industry. He works with Yukon River Tours. The visitor industry is a resource industry and the second largest industry in the state. "We are being taken for granted here, while other resource industries are floundering because of resource prices. Are you going to damage the visitor industry also? One of our best industries that's hanging in here in Alaska right now." The bill is not needed. Wildlife viewing is the fastest growing segment of the visitor industry worldwide. Why are we ruling it out? he asked. This is wrong. Number 0355 SEAN McGUIRE testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He agrees with the testimony of Mr. Lacey. The AOC and politicians continually say "let the Board of Game do its job without the influence of politics." It is a joke. The majority of Alaskans would be opposed to killing off wolves and bears in order to make more moose and caribou. It gives the animal rights groups gas-o- line to through on the fire. The bill is really ill-advised and we need to get away from telling the Board of Game how to do its job. Number 0499 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated the constitution gives the legislature the general authority to manage fish and game in the state. Some of that power has been delegated to the Boards of Fisheries and Game. They were established by the legislature and the only power that they have has been delegated to them. MR. McGUIRE replied: Why is there a Board of Game then? Why doesn't the legislature just make the policies? CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he doesn't want to debate that issue now. Number 0553 KEVIN SAXBY, Assistant Attorney General, Natural Resources Section, Department of Law, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. He is the attorney assigned to the Board of Game. There is an advantage to list in statute a preference amongst beneficial uses of game. However, there are problems with the listings in the bill, especially if the first preference is limited to food. It isn't clear whether subsistence use of fur includes shelter and clothing. In addition, there would be major issues when areas that have been set aside for viewing were opened up for hunting. It would be difficult for the boards to keep those areas closed. The legislature would have to ratify them. In reference to Section 3, the boards do not have fiscal, administrative or management authority according to statute, only regulatory. The proposed language would blur the separation of powers between the board and department which by-en-large has worked well. Number 0736 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Fish and Game, testified in Juneau. The department appreciates inserting the word "identified" with the amendment. There is a conflict between 16.05.241 and Section 3 of the bill, however. It is not only a separation of powers issue, but a practical one of trying to keep within budgets and fiscal restraints. There are some things proposed in the regulatory arena that would be impractical to implement. In addition, Section 4 would cause some confusion regarding subsistence. Subsistence is defined in terms of customary and traditional uses which includes more than food. It would also place nonconsumptive uses of wildlife at the bottom when it is important economically to the state and a lot of residents. If somebody wanted to brown bear hunt in the McNeil River State Game Sanctuary, the board would be hard pressed not to allow it. The regulation that sets up the sanctuary says the board "shall" determine whether hunting should be prohibited, and if there is a statute that says hunting is the highest and best use, it would be very difficult for the board to do otherwise. Number 0905 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted the bill says human consumption for food. Generally, the meat is not salvaged for brown bears so it would not be the highest and best use. Number 0919 MR. BRUCE stated it would be considered under the language "commercial use, including trapping and guiding." The process of the Boards of Fisheries and Game is not perfect, but it provides an arena for people to argue their positions. [DUE TO TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES TESTIMONY WAS LOST] Number 0984 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the bill will be held over. Number 0991 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she gives no credibility to what Mr. Saxby says. He cannot establish what a ceiling is to the laws. Number 1035 STEVE BEHNKE, Executive Director, Alaska Wilderness, Recreation and Tourism Association, testified in Juneau. The association represents about 300 businesses from around the state that provide nature-based tourist activities: guiding, sports fishing, wilderness rafting, kayaking and wildlife viewing. The association is quite concerned about the sub-preferences established. The legislature has had plenty of difficulties establishing preferences and implementing them, especially subsistence preferences. Setting a preference for commercial use, including trapping and guiding, over wildlife viewing is a mistake. It doesn't seem to accomplish much other than a bunch of new problems. The association is not asking for a priority for its uses, but the preferences established in the bill would eliminate options for its businesses and for the boards to accommodate local concerns. Number 1143 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated if there are enough animals to hunt there are enough animals to view. He is always perplexed by the testimony from the visitor industry. MR. BEHNKE replied, in general, the association agrees with that. But, there are situations that require special attention, such as restricting access points to reduce noise and activity - tools that the boards have had available to them traditionally. The boards have made responsible use of the tools, and the association thinks there shouldn't be a statutory preference for one commercial use over another. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the bill will be held over. ADJOURNMENT Number 1202 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee meeting at 3:10 p.m.

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