Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/20/1997 01:10 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 20, 1997
1:10 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman
Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative Joe Green
Representative William K. ("Bill") Williams
Representative Irene Nicholia (via teleconference)
Representative Reggie Joule
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Ramona Barnes
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 21
Relating to amendment of Title VIII of the Alaska National Interest
Lands Conservation Act.
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 151
"An Act relating to personal hunting of big game by big game guides
while clients are in the field and to use area registration for
portions of additional guide use areas by registered guides."
- MOVED CSHB 151(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HOUSE BILL NO. 144
"An Act authorizing the Department of Environmental Conservation to
charge certain fees relating to registration of pesticides and
broadcast chemicals; and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
* SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 128
"An Act relating to water quality; directing the Department of
Environmental Conservation to conduct water quality research;
establishing the Water Science Oversight Board; and providing for
an effective date."
- BILL CANCELLED
HOUSE BILL NO. 19
"An Act relating to licensing of sport fishing services operators
and fishing guides; and providing for an effective date."
- BILL CANCELLED
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HJR 21
SHORT TITLE: REQUESTING CONGRESS TO AMEND ANILCA
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MASEK, Ogan
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/12/97 314 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/12/97 314 (H) RESOURCES, STATE AFFAIRS
03/13/97 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
03/13/97 (H) MINUTE(RES)
03/20/97 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HB 151
SHORT TITLE: BIG GAME GUIDES AND REGISTRATION AREAS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/21/97 424 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/21/97 425 (H) RESOURCES
03/06/97 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
03/06/97 (H) MINUTE(RES)
03/11/97 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
03/11/97 (H) MINUTE(RES)
03/20/97 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
ANGIE MORGAN
P.O. Box 127
Aniak, Alaska 99557
(No telephone number provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 21.
THOMAS TILDEN
P.O. Box 786
Dillingham, Alaska 99576
Telephone: (907) 842-2259
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 21.
TERRY HOEFFERLE, Chief Executive Officer
Bristol Bay Native Association
P.O. Box 310
Dillingham, Alaska 99576
Telephone: (907) 842-5257
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HJR 21.
DARLENE PETERSON, Tribal Administrator
Chuathbaluk Traditional Council
P.O. Box CHU
Chuathbaluk, Alaska 99557
Telephone: (907) 467-4313
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 21.
OLGA BOROWSKI, Vice Chairman
Chuathbaluk Traditional Council
P.O. Box CHU
Chuathbaluk, Alaska 99557
Telephone: (907) 467-4313
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 21.
MARK JACOBS, JR.
P.O. Box 625
Sitka, Alaska 99835
Telephone: (907) 747-8168
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 21.
RICHARD SLATS
Chevak Traditional Council
P.O. Box 140
Chevak, Alaska 99563
Telephone: (907) 858-7428
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HJR 21.
GEORGE MORGAN, JR.
(No address provided)
Upper Kalskag 99607
Telephone: (907) 471-2328
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 21.
RICHARD GUTHRIE
P.O. Box 240163
Anchorage, Alaska 99524
Telephone: (907) 243-7766
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 151.
GARY KING, JR.
2024 Stonegate Circle
Anchorage, Alaska 99515
Telephone: (907) 522-1164
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 151; suggested amendment.
KURT WEST, Licensing Supervisor
Division of Occupational Licensing
Department of Commerce and Economic Development
P.O. Box 110806
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0806
Telephone: (907) 465-2588
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 151.
BILL LOMAX
355 Dailey Avenue, Number 28
Anchorage, Alaska 99515
Telephone: (907) 522-3263
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 151.
WAYNE WOODS
P.O. Box 1503
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 746-2534
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 151; suggested amendment.
CAPTAIN JOEL HARD, Commander
B Detachment
Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection
Department of Public Safety
435 South Valley Way
Palmer, Alaska 99645-6494
Telephone: (907) 746-9139
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided department's position and answered
questions regarding HB 151.
EDWARD GRASSER, Legislative Assistant
to Representative Beverly Masek
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 432
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2679
POSITION STATEMENT: Explained amendment to HB 151.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-28, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:10 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Ogan, Hudson, Masek, Dyson,
Green, Williams, Nicholia (via teleconference from Fairbanks) and
Joule. Representative Barnes was excused, traveling in her
district.
HJR 21 - REQUESTING CONGRESS TO AMEND ANILCA
Number 0102
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was House
Joint Resolution No. 21, relating to amendment of Title VIII of the
Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA).
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the motion to move HJR 21 from
committee, made by Representative Barnes at the March 13 hearing,
was on the table when that meeting adjourned.
Number 0149
CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON made a motion to table the previous motion
and noted that Representative Barnes was now absent. There being
no objection, it was so ordered.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the current meeting was to take
testimony by invitation, primarily from people unable to testify on
March 13 because of lack of teleconference lines. He did not
intend to move HJR 21 that day.
Number 0275
ANGIE MORGAN testified via teleconference from Aniak. Born in
Upper Kalskag, 30 miles away, she works for the Kuskokwim Native
Association, Natural Resources and Subsistence. She testified "on
behalf of our people from this region."
MS. MORGAN said economic and cultural survival of the Alaska Native
community is the principal reason why the U.S. Congress enacted its
rural subsistence preference in 1980. There are few jobs and
little cash in rural areas. Hunting, fishing and gathering provide
Native people with productive work and self-esteem. If the
subsistence-based economies and cultures of Alaska's villages fail,
there will be devastating consequences.
MS. MORGAN invited Representative Masek to revisit Native villages.
She herself lived in Anchorage almost ten years. When she moved
back, she needed to relearn the village lifestyle. Where she
lives, a loaf of bread costs $2.85. People only buy meat at the
store when they must. It costs a middle-sized family $18,000 per
year for food without subsistence. With welfare reform and high
energy costs, rural residents are having a hard time.
Number 0690
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN clarified that HJR 21 does not call for amending
the rural preference portion of ANILCA.
Number 0720
THOMAS TILDEN testified via teleconference as a citizen from
Dillingham. He grew up in a small village 40 miles away. He hopes
legislators do not think Representative Masek is speaking on behalf
of the Native people. He is almost offended by what is being
attempted. He wishes legislators would come to the villages and
discuss the impacts of amending ANILCA.
MR. TILDEN said with the rural subsistence preference prior to
1989, there were no detrimental effects to the state. He believes
Title VIII of ANILCA protects Alaska Natives' customary and
traditional way of life. Ironically, the Alaska constitution
provides for protection of natural resources or habitat, but not
for Alaska Natives, who have long been part of the ecosystem.
Number 0941
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that he was in Mr. Tilden's village in 1980
or 1981 and had been up and down that river numerous times.
The teleconference operator advised that Robin Samuelson had
elected to have Terry Hoefferle testify on his behalf.
Number 0986
TERRY HOEFFERLE, Chief Executive Officer, Bristol Bay Native
Association (BBNA), testified via teleconference from Dillingham.
The BBNA had opposed, by resolution and on the floor of the Alaska
Federation of Natives (AFN) convention, the federal government's
stepping in to manage Alaska's resources, in part because elder
statesmen remembered clearly what it was like when the federal
government managed the fisheries. Mr. Hoefferle had never thought
he would prefer federal over state management.
Number 1023
MR. HOEFFERLE read into the record Resolution 97-42, opposing HJR
21, passed the previous day by the BBNA board of directors:
"Whereas: the Bristol Bay Native Association is a tribal
organization serving 31 Alaska Native communities, each of which is
heavily dependent upon subsistence use of fish and game; and
"Whereas: the laws of the State of Alaska provide no meaningful
priority or protection for subsistence use of fish and game because
they equate recreational [sic]; and
"Whereas: if the current policies and laws of the State of Alaska
regarding subsistence use of fish and game are extended to apply
statewide, then Alaska Native culture, tradition and indeed village
life itself will eventually be destroyed because of continuing
urban population growth and resultant pressure on fish and game
resources; and
"Whereas: cutbacks on government spending on welfare and other
services in rural Alaska are making subsistence even more
essential; and
"Whereas: the only meaningful legal protection for subsistence and
the continued vitality of Native subsistence-based culture is Title
VIII of the Alaska Native Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA);
and
"Whereas: House Joint Resolution 21 has been introduced in the
Alaska State Legislature and asks Congress to amend Title VIII of
ANILCA in a manner which will effectively destroy the protection it
gives to subsistence; and
"Whereas: some of the changes requested by HJR 21 would have no
practical effect, as they reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of
the law, for example: State and private land are already excluded
from definition of public land in ANILCA, and ANILCA already
neither confirms nor denies the existence of tribal sovereignty and
Indian country in Alaska; and
"Whereas: HJR 21 contains many other inaccuracies of law and fact;
and
"Whereas: HJR 21 is cleverly worded to distort the truth and
appears to intend to work a subterfuge on the people of Alaska; and
"Whereas: among the falsehoods in HJR 21 are that its title
implies it is for a mere amendment to Title VIII, whereas it would
actually gut the protections for subsistence uses in Title VIII;
that views expressed in HJR 21 are not a plurality of opinion in
Alaska, but a minority; polls have continually shown a majority
preference for a constitutional amendment to restore a rural
subsistence priority to state law; Title VIII of ANILCA does not
`unnecessarily' encroach upon state authority but is a reasonable
and necessary exercise of congressional authority to meet the trust
obligations of the United States government toward Native
Americans; Title VIII of ANILCA does not contradict the 10th
Amendment to the U.S. Constitution; both state and federal courts
have consistently upheld the constitutionality of Title VIII
against [the] Tenth Amendment and other constitutional challenge;
Number 1206
"Now therefore be it resolved by the Board of Directors of the
Bristol Bay Native Association on behalf of itself and the
following Alaska Native communities: Aleknagik, Chignik Bay,
Chignik Lagoon, Chignik Lake, Clarks Point, Dillingham, Egegik,
Ekuk, Ekwok, Igiugig, Iliamna, Ivanof Bay, Kanatak, King Salmon,
Kokhanok, Koliganek, Levelock, Manokotak, Naknek, New Stuyah
Newhalen, Nondalton, Pedro Bay, Perryville, Pilot Point, Point
Heiden, Portage Creek, South Naknek, Togiak, Twin Hills and
Ugashik; that they ardently oppose HJR 21 and urge its defeat in
the state legislature and its rejection by Congress.
"Be it further resolved that copies of this resolution be sent to
the Alaska congressional delegation; Governor Tony Knowles, the
honorable Bruce Babbitt, Secretary of Interior; Senator Ben
Nighthorse Campbell; Senator Daniel Inouye; the House and Senate
leadership in the Alaska State Legislature; State Senator Lyman
Hoffman; and Representatives Ivan Ivan and Carl Moses. Signed:
Daniel Nielsen, President."
Number 1271
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON said in following this issue for ten to twenty
years, he had heard and experienced polarization between rural and
urban Alaskans. He thanked Mr. Hoefferle for mentioning possible
inconsistencies in HJR 21 and said they would look at those. He
asked whether Mr. Hoefferle did not support, ultimately, Alaska
managing its own fish and wildlife resources.
Number 1341
MR. HOEFFERLE wished he could say yes. However, he believes HJR 21
asks for substantial changes that would gut the effective
protections of subsistence that ANILCA provides. He expressed
sadness at the legislature's treatment of rural Alaskans, including
refusal to let Alaskans vote on the subsistence issue or place it
on the ballot for a constitutional amendment. In light of welfare
reform and possible elimination of 32 positions in the Department
of Health and Social Services, he is losing faith in the
legislature's commitment to protect Alaskans and meet their needs.
Number 1461
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON commented that one major problem is that this is
a multifaceted, polarized situation.
Number 1514
DARLENE PETERSON, Tribal Administrator, Chuathbaluk Traditional
Council, testified via teleconference. She said Natives have a
right to live their way of life. However, they must always defend
themselves to the legislature on subsistence, welfare and whatever
else arises. She suggested there be more time to get informed
about legislation.
Number 1604
OLGA BOROWSKI, Vice Chairman, Chuathbaluk Traditional Council,
testified via teleconference. She asked what changes would occur
if subsistence came under state management.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied that HJR 21 does not call for a change to
rural preference. Rather, it calls for Alaskans to define terms
like "traditional," "customary," and "rural."
MS. BOROWSKI said after her monthly food stamps run out, she must
rely on subsistence, which she believes should be managed by the
federal government.
Number 1701
MARK JACOBS, JR., testified via teleconference from Sitka, saying
he is 73 years old and has been involved in politics for over 50
years. When ANILCA was pending in Congress, the Alaska legislature
took action to comply with it. "It was a piece of legislation that
we agreed with, and that was for Native and non-Native alike," he
said. "And then we began to have challenges from sportsmen's
associations. And to us, this endangered our inherent rights."
MR. JACOBS said the state and federal governments, including the
U.S. Congress, do not use the word "inherent." Instead, they use
"traditional and customary." He claims inherent rights, not
subject to legislation, which he has possessed all his life and
which are immune to statutory regulation. He said inherent rights
are common law rights, and there are no common law violations
against a constitutional government, which includes both federal
and state constitutions.
Number 1775
MR. JACOBS said under the statehood act, the state and its people
were required to disclaim any right or title, including fishing, to
any land claimed and owned by Indians, Eskimos and Aleuts. He
referred to the state constitution, Article XII, Section 12, and
said it contains the word "forever" and cannot be changed, not even
by the federal government. "Inherent rights is in the same
category as not being subject to statutes," he said.
MR. JACOBS stated, "To begin with, when we first filed our land
claims suit, it was a trespass suit. And I have noticed that there
is no language in the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act that
we've sold the lands. We still own it. And it is still a trespass
on state -- on Alaska lands. We still own it and claim it, and
that the act guarantees us maximum participation when the Native
rights are in ...." Mr. Jacobs said he wished he could spend a day
or an hour with the committee.
Number 1851
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN invited Mr. Jacobs to visit in Juneau and said he
would inform Mr. Jacobs if he plans to be in Sitka. He commented
that if every indigenous person in Alaska claimed an inherent right
to take whatever fish and game they see fit, Alaska would have an
anarchy and would probably lose the resource. He believes some
kind of cohesive management is necessary. Nonetheless, he
expressed respect for Mr. Jacobs' opinion.
Number 1890
RICHARD SLATS, Chevak Traditional Council, testified via
teleconference in opposition to HJR 21. He read the following into
the record:
"The Kashunamiut are a federally recognized tribe who is
represented by their tribal government, the Chevak Traditional
Council, whose primary goal is to protect the health, safety and
welfare and the inherent traditional and cultural rights of the
Kashunamiut and for their best interests. Let this acknowledge
that we are in opposition of the House Joint Resolution No. 21, as
it infringes upon our inherent rights and will exploit our
ancestral lands which are located on the Yukon Kuskokwim Delta
National Wildlife Refuge, which has been protected by -- or we feel
which has been protected by ANILCA, Title VIII, Subsistence Use and
Management, as it is written.
"ANILCA Title VIII should not be amended because the resolution HJR
21 contradicts the whole purpose of Title VIII. These amendments
are also directly contradicting the RurAL CAP subsistence round
table, which was held in Anchorage February 1997. The State of
Alaska may be out of compliance of ANILCA, Title VIII, concerning
subsistence. The State of Alaska tends to lean towards sports,
commercial and other special interest groups that are not aware of
the importance of the subsistence issues and use for the rural
communities.
"The following are section responses to the `further resolved' of
the proposed resolution:
"(1) Public land is already defined in the Federal Register,
Volume 57, No. 20, and ANILCA, Title VIII.
"(2) Congress is already authorized to take over management if
[the] state is not in compliance.
[Resolve (3) not addressed]
"(4) Section 807 provides for protection of subsistence users, and
repeal would undermine authority of the federal judicial system.
"(5) The customary and traditional use, subsistence use and rural
are defined in the Federal Register, Volume 57, No. 20, January 30,
1992, proposed rules of the Department of Interior, under Section
4, Definition of Subpart A - General Provision. They are listed as
such in the final Subsistence Management for Federal Public Lands
in Alaska, which attests to the Webster's definition of [sic]. The
definition of the aforementioned terms are already defined and what
this resolution proposes to do is to authorize the State of Alaska
to rewrite the Webster's Dictionary to soothe Masek's and Ogan's
HJR 21.
"(6) Under Title VIII, Section 804, the subsistence preference is
already addressed. ... The House Joint Resolution 21 contradicts
the purposes and policies of ANILCA, Title VIII.
"(7) Tribal sovereignty and Indian country issues have been
decided in favor of the tribes across Alaska but is presently in
the appeal process; no amendments should even be considered because
court cases on these issues are and may be pending.
"(8) The State of Alaska ... should not have an option because if
subsistence management is handed to the State of Alaska, it would
be their obligation to establish regional advisory councils,
meaning they should be mandated to establish such councils rather
than to choose to do so.
"(9) The Sections (8) and (9) proposed amendments are addressed in
Section 805(a)(2) and (3)(D)(iv).
"(10) The sale of fish and wildlife taken for subsistence uses
supplements incomes for expenses incurred for hunting necessities,
ammunition, gasoline and oil and other gears to do more subsistence
hunting and fishing."
Number 2108
MR. SLATS concluded that HJR 21 contradicts Title VIII of ANILCA.
Furthermore, there are provisions in 16 U.S.C. 3119 for the state
to enter into a cooperative agreement, rather than rewriting the
whole purpose and policy section of Title VIII. The Kashunamiut,
the Chevak Traditional Council, Chevak Tribal Courts and their
departments oppose HJR 21, which they feel is a direct assault
against Alaska Natives.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced that testifiers could fax comments to
(907) 465-3265.
Number 2190
GEORGE MORGAN, JR., testified via teleconference from Upper
Kalskag. He and his ancestors had managed fish and game all their
lives. They knew not to waste, and they respected the animals and
fish. While they were being restricted on chum salmon, however,
others were catching 700,000 fish. Mr. Morgan said 70 percent of
his food comes from subsistence.
MR. MORGAN stated, "We were here first. We will always manage our
land better than the state and federal governments." He said the
federal government assisted in managing resources. The state
government, however, has taken away money for advisory councils and
welfare, while allocating $1 million "to fight your own people."
He opposes HJR 21 because it does not protect what was agreed upon.
MR. MORGAN suggested meetings in places such as Bethel, Nome,
Barrow and Kodiak. He thanked Representative Masek for bringing
this up so people could comment. He believes the federal
government will do a better job for now. Currently, there is a lot
of fish and game; he hopes this can be worked out before it is too
late. He suggested 90 percent or more of state funding comes from
rural Alaska. "Please don't take our subsistence way of life away.
We depend on that," he concluded.
Number 2308
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that public testimony was closed.
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS said he wants to settle the
subsistence issue. The state is in a critical position with
subsistence. The federal government has taken hold, and it will be
difficult to "get them out of our house." The federal government
is not using biological science to manage Alaska's hunting and
fishing. When the federal government managed Alaska's fisheries,
there were no fish.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS reported that Senators Stevens and
Murkowski had told him it is up to the legislature and the governor
to solve it, whether through ANILCA, the state constitution, or
both. He said subsistence will stop commercial fishing, hunting
and even logging throughout Alaska. Alaska is losing its
resources. He cannot stress enough how important it is for Alaska
to take care of the subsistence problem.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS believes everyone affected must come to the
table. He did not recall hearing one rural community in favor of
HJR 21. He stated his hope that everyone can get past the
polarization. "We're only hearing one side of it, and we only have
one side of the fix," he said. "We need both sides, the rural
communities talking on this also."
TAPE 97-28, SIDE B
Number 0006
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS advised that he had asked the Speaker of
the House to hold a majority caucus on the subsistence problem. He
believes an issue as controversial as this requires time. He
suggested going to rural Alaska and asked that HJR 21 be held until
after the caucus.
Number 0059
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said much of what he is hearing from rural
communities is fear and mistrust. He thinks the perception is that
the agenda behind HJR 21 is eliminating subsistence. However, that
is not the objective. It is simply trying to let Alaskans resolve
this. He believes if Alaska is to settle it as a state, it must be
done the first half of this legislative session.
Number 0110
REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE explained that his given name means
"when a whale is caught in the village and the person is getting
the membrane from the liver for the purpose of using it to make a
drum, to get a softer sound." He said subsistence is more than
just hunting and fishing. It goes into every fiber of the people
in rural Alaska, down to how they carry their names.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated, "I would submit that if we were to go
to our congressional delegation, bringing people who are at odds
over this issue, and letting them know that we are coming to the
table to try to resolve this, that our congressional delegation
would work very hard to get a waiver and an extension." He
indicated Senator Murkowski had mentioned that.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE said he opposes HJR 21. First, there is
general mistrust in rural areas, some of which relates to the
state's advocating for sport hunting and fishing. While that
brings in tens of millions of dollars to the Alaskan economy,
subsistence gathering by rural Alaskans brings in little in terms
of new economy.
Number 0262
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE referred to federal management, or no
management, and said prior to 1971 or 1972, polar bears were nearly
extinct from sport hunting. Since the Endangered Species Act, both
polar bear and walrus populations have bounced back.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked that the sponsor consider tabling HJR 21
so that people can come to the table with no agenda, to see if
progress can be made. He believes state management, if it can be
accomplished, is best. He would rather settle this issue with the
600,000 Alaska residents, as opposed to the 600 million who have
access through the federal government system. However, he also
believes they must come to the table with no agenda, or at least
with more openness.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE expressed appreciation for holding over the
resolution and allowing additional testimony.
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE discussed teaching his children about the gift
of sharing. He said for years, he believed that meant giving a
little of the harvest to another person. Then he heard discussion
from elders who were unable to go out anymore. They asked the
children where they went and how they got the foods. As the
children recanted the tales, there was deep spiritual bonding
between the generations. He indicated there is more to subsistence
than comes across on telephone lines. He asked that the committee
go to where the expertise lies.
Number 0449
REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA spoke via teleconference. She
thanked Co-Chairman Ogan for hearing the resolution again. She
concurred with Representative Joule's comments. Subsistence
provides food to supplement rural people's budgets, and it is a tie
to Native traditional and cultural practices. "We take great pride
in having these activities, which helps us to bond with others in
our communities," she said. She emphasized that when a moose or
caribou is taken, they attempt to utilize every part of it.
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA said HJR 21 weakens the rural priority for
subsistence under Title VIII of ANILCA. "We cannot let you do
that," she said, emphasizing that subsistence is necessary to
supplement the rural lifestyle.
Number 0639
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said he believes this is a process at
impasse. People are talking to, but not with, each other. If one
element is missing, it is trust. He acknowledged concerns of both
rural residents and people worried about violating equal access
provisions within the constitution. He is convinced there is
enough for everyone in Alaska. But how to re-establish that trust
is the question. He said if nothing else, HJR 21 has clearly
articulated the difficulty Alaskans are having in solving a problem
that really should not be a problem.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON acknowledged that some feel there is a
conspiracy or power play to remove something they feel spiritually
connected to. "And I don't believe that's the case, but I think
it's perception," he said. He expressed frustration at the
inability to come up with the "trust equity" needed to solve this
issue.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN concurred.
Number 0825
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked when HJR 21 would be heard again.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said although it would be before the committee
again, he wanted to work with Representative Williams on the caucus
issue.
Number 0859
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he identifies with Co-Chairman Hudson's
remarks. While HJR 21 on its face is a bright, imaginative and
incisive attempt to solve the problem without going to either
extreme, it is not widely perceived that way. There is more work
to do to help people understand the intention. He believes there
will be no progress until trust is built and people start talking.
Unfortunately, he believes Alaskans are a long ways from that.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he, Co-Chairman Hudson and Representative
Green just returned from the Yukon Territory, where parties are
halfway through the process of resolving similar problems.
Although they have gone about it in a reasonable manner, with
everyone at the table, it has been a 20-year process to date.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON concurred with Co-Chairman Ogan that "we're
under the gun here on time." The problem has been brewing for one
or two hundred years, and it is long past the optimum time to get
started. Now, the legislature would try to play catch-up, make up
for lots of real and imagined past injustices, and try to get past
the paranoia and prejudice to arrive at a solution. Although he
will work hard, he guesses it will not get done in a timely
fashion.
Number 1016
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN believes these issues were perceived to have been
settled during statehood. Since then, however, they had unraveled.
Number 1035
REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK said it is important that Alaskans
work together. She believes HJR 21 provides a good avenue for
debating what needs to be done at the state level on subsistence.
There have been 20 years of debate, money spent, studies done, and
commissions and boards put together. Recently, RurAL CAP conducted
a round table discussion including statewide Native
representatives; although invited, she was unable to attend because
of the legislative session.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said in continuing discussions with her family
in Anvik, where she grew up, she has never heard of shortages of
fish and game. She believes rural areas increasingly depend on
federal and state grant money. She further believes the AFN,
despite good intentions, is using subsistence to polarize people
and distort the real problems.
Number 1279
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said HJR 21 addresses questions of rural
versus urban, race against race, dual management, and whether the
federal government can continue to define subsistence regulations.
She emphasized that nothing in HJR 21 removes protection for
subsistence. She has lived the rural and subsistence lifestyle,
and nobody can take that from her. Although a hundred years ago
there was a true subsistence lifestyle, now people are caught
between two different worlds.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK acknowledged that Natives and those who have
moved to Alaska all have culture and tradition. She believes in
respecting that. Equality is one of the most important issues, and
that is how the United States was born 200 years ago.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said in no other state has the federal
government taken away the state's right and ability to manage its
fish and wildlife. At both the state and federal levels, money
goes to rural areas to strengthen the economy and help with
education, health and social problems. She emphasized that there
are no bad or ill feelings on the part of legislators. She pointed
out that unfortunately, many jobs out there are state or other
government jobs. She said HJR 21 allows the state to make
decisions on definitions yet still retains the rural preference,
which will not go away, even in times of shortage.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said the bigger issue is that the state must
act. The only other idea has been to change the state
constitution. However, she believes that currently the majority of
Alaskans want to see the constitution protected.
Number 1542
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN commended participants for the level of debate and
the decorum of all involved.
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN reminded the committee that inaction is a
decision.
Number 1597
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called an at-ease at 2:32 p.m. He called the
meeting back to order at 2:35 p.m. He announced the committee
would hold HJR 21 over and reminded the public that testimony was
closed.
HB 151 - BIG GAME GUIDES AND REGISTRATION AREAS
Number 1685
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was House
Bill No. 151, "An Act relating to personal hunting of big game by
big game guides while clients are in the field and to use area
registration for portions of additional guide use areas by
registered guides." Before the committee, adopted on March 11 as
a work draft, was proposed committee substitute 0-LS0618\B,
Utermohle, 3/11/97.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN, sponsor, briefly recapped the bill. He opened
the meeting for public comment.
Number 1830
RICHARD GUTHRIE testified via teleconference from Anchorage in
support of HB 151. A guide outfitter, he said everyone he had
spoken with supports prohibiting a guide from hunting while with a
client. There had been past abuses of that.
MR. GUTHRIE commented on Section 5. In a few situations, land
ownership boundaries do not coincide with guide use area
boundaries. For example, he has a permit from the National Park
Service to hunt in a park reserve that overlaps two different state
guide use areas. In the past, through the regulations, he could
register in the use area where his camp had been for over 17 years,
and he was allowed to use that portion of the adjacent guide use
area for which his National Park Service permit was valid. If he
lost that, using the area would no longer be economically viable
because of recent changes in seasons and species open to hunting.
Number 2072
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the practice addressed in Section 5
was previously allowed in regulation. However, it was not included
in the legislation that passed. It is limited in scope, affects
few people and is only in areas where nobody else can hunt. He
believes it is common sense.
Number 2121
GARY KING, JR., testified via teleconference from Anchorage. He
had worked the previous session with Senator Halford and
Representative Ogan to put the new guide statutes in place.
Although he favors the concept of Section 5, he does not favor the
wording.
MR. KING said he has guided in an area since 1971. After 1980,
when the National Park Service came in, he was permitted to use a
certain geographical area. However, when it was mapped, one line
did not coincide with his federal permitting area, cutting off
eight to ten square miles that would have significant financial
impact should he be unable to use it. He is one of several guides
in this situation.
MR. KING suggested rewording Section 5, page 4, beginning with line
30, to read, "in which the registered guide is already registered
if the registered guide can demonstrate to the department that he
holds a valid federal permit to conduct guided hunting in that
portion of the adjacent area where the portion of the guide's
existing federal permit area was mapped into an adjacent area
because state guide use area boundaries do not coincide with
federal permit or concession areas."
Number 2452
KURT WEST, Licensing Supervisor, Division of Occupational
Licensing, Department of Commerce and Economic Development, came
forward at Co-Chairman Ogan's request.
TAPE 97-29, SIDE A
Number 0006
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. West to comment on Mr. King's proposed
wording.
MR. WEST asked to hear it again.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN requested that Mr. King fax it.
MR. KING said his comments were included in a letter of March 5,
1997, faxed to Co-Chairman Ogan's office.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said he did not see it in the file.
Number 0104
MR. KING noted that he had also sent letters to the Department of
Commerce and Economic Development over the last year. He offered
to fax it again, however.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that there would be no quorum soon and
that he wished to move the bill. He said it could possibly be
amended on the House floor. He asked that Mr. King fax his
wording. Co-Chairman Ogan would run it by the legislative drafter
and ask Mr. West to compare with the language of the old
regulations. He asked Mr. King whether, to his knowledge, his
wording coincides with the previous policy.
MR. KING said it does not 100 percent parallel the language of the
old regulations. "And as you recall, I had a problem with the old
regs when they were drafted," he added.
Number 0215
BILL LOMAX testified via teleconference from Anchorage. He concurs
with Mr. King that the language is unfair. He said the new mapping
process could annex a portion of an existing permit area into an
additional guide use area. Changing the language, which affects a
number of guides, would make it a much cleaner bill.
Number 0292
WAYNE WOODS testified via teleconference from Mat-Su. He proposed
adding a new subsection to Section 2, page 4, following line 1, to
read, "(19) it is unlawful for a transporter to remain in the field
with clients beyond the normal duties of dropping off or retrieving
clients, meat and hunting equipment."
MR. WOODS said there is beginning to be quite a problem with
transporters remaining in the field with clients and assisting with
hunting. He said the Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection is
having a difficult time making a case for guiding without a license
without placing some constraints on the transporter industry. "I
don't mind taking on a higher level of responsibility, but I want
a corresponding measure of protection for my license by the state
for doing this," he explained.
MR. WOODS said Captain Joel Hard had testified March 15, 1997, at
the Board of Game hearing that the lowest level of regulatory
compliance is with drop-off hunters serviced by transporters,
whereas the highest level of compliance has been by guides and
local resident hunters. He said this problem is starting to have
an impact on the general hunting public, with greater restriction
on seasons and bag limits in part due to this problem. He believes
it can be rectified simply by making this amendment.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Captain Hard to comment.
Number 0454
CAPTAIN JOEL HARD, Commander, B Detachment, Division of Fish and
Wildlife Protection, Department of Public Safety, testified via
teleconference. He had been asked to address the Board of Game
about enforcement concerns relating to the Mulchatna herd in Units
17, 19 and 9. In that testimony, he stated that the division's
experience in those units, with that caribou herd, is that they see
the highest rate of wanton waste compliance, and salvage
requirements being met, by subsistence and guided hunters. The
lowest compliance rate in that area is by nonresident and resident
drop-off hunters.
Number 0527
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether that is basically a fly-in hunt.
CAPTAIN HARD said yes, although there is some boat traffic hunting
in Unit 17, primarily, and then up into 19.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether people taking others on boat hunts
were accompanying them in the field and assisting with the hunt.
CAPTAIN HARD indicated in those areas, they rarely see transporters
using boats. The boat traffic there is primarily from resident
hunters.
Number 0576
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there are areas having problems with
transporters accompanying hunters and hunting with them in the
field.
CAPTAIN HARD explained, "We have investigated a number of cases and
received complaints, I'm going to say primarily in my experience in
Southeast Alaska with spring bear hunters, where we're seeing some
transporters accompanying clients beyond the point of beaching.
And it's difficult for us to determine whether or not there is a
guiding activity ongoing, or if there's just an accompanying for
the pleasure of the outing."
CAPTAIN HARD continued, "Without specific statements or evidence of
remuneration, it's difficult to make a criminal case of guiding
without a license. I think the current regulation, although it was
intending to prevent transporters from accompanying people in the
field, it doesn't clearly state that you cannot do that."
Number 0661
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN offered an amendment, 0-LS0618\B.1, Utermohle,
3/18/97, which read:
Page 3, line 26:
Delete "class-A assistant guide"
Insert "person who is licensed as a registered guide, a
class-A assistant guide,"
Page 3, line 28:
Delete "class-A assistant guide or the assistant guide"
Insert "person"
Page 3, line 29:
Delete "class-A assistant guide or assistant guide"
Insert "person"
Page 3, line 31, through 4, line 1:
Delete "class-A assistant guide or assistant guide"
Insert "person"
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained that the intention is to prevent guides
from hunting in the field. However, Eddie Grasser, aide to
Representative Masek, had felt there was a loophole because a guide
contracted with another guide does not fall under the current
description.
Number 0732
EDWARD GRASSER, Legislative Assistant to Representative Beverly
Masek, explained he had noticed a loophole. As the bill is
written, registered or master guides, as Mr. Grasser had been, may
not hunt while in the field if they contract with a client.
Neither may an assistant guide do so. However, a registered guide
working for another registered or master guide was not precluded
from doing so. Thus, the amendment.
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said the drafters felt this amendment takes care
of the problem.
CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN made a motion to adopt the amendment. There
being no objection, it was so ordered.
Number 0848
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS made a motion to move the committee
substitute, as amended, from committee with individual
recommendations. There being no objection, CSHB 151(RES) moved
from the House Resources Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 0861
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee
meeting at 2:59 p.m.
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