Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/16/1993 08:00 AM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
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HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
April 16, 1993
8:00 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bill Williams, Chairman
Representative Con Bunde
Representative Pat Carney
Representative John Davies
Representative Joe Green
Representative Jeannette James
Representative Eldon Mulder
Representative David Finkelstein
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Bill Hudson, Vice Chairman
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HB 182: "An Act making a special appropriation to the
Department of Transportation and Public
Facilities, northern region, for identification
and delineation of a transportation and utility
corridor between Fairbanks and the Seward
Peninsula; and providing for an effective date."
PASSED FROM COMMITTEE WITH A DO PASS
RECOMMENDATION
HB 183: "An Act directing the identification and
delineation of a transportation and utility
corridor between Fairbanks and the Seward
Peninsula for road, rail, pipeline, and electrical
transmission purposes; and providing for an
effective date."
CSHB 183 (RES) ADOPTED AND PASSED FROM COMMITTEE
WITH A DO PASS RECOMMENDATION
WITNESS REGISTER
Representative Jeannette James
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 501
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Phone: 465-3743
Position Statement: Prime Sponsor, HB 182 and HB 183
Jim Stimpfle
Nome Chamber of Commerce
P.O. Box 729
Nome, Alaska 99762
Phone: 443-2002
Position Statement: Supported HB 182 and HB 183
Frank Irelan
P.O. Box 181
Nome, Alaska 99762
Phone: 443-2993
Position Statement: Testified with concerns on funding
aspects of HB 183
Polly Wheeler, Deputy Director and
Senior Researcher for Wildlife and Parks
Tanana Chiefs Conference
122 First Avenue
Fairbanks, Alaska 99701
Phone: 452-8251
Position Statement: Opposed HB 182 and HB 183
Julie Roberts
Address unavailable
Tanana, Alaska 99777
Phone: not available
Position Statement: Opposed HB 182 and HB 183
Herbie Edwin
Tanana Village Council
Tanana, Alaska 99777
Phone: not available
Position Statement: Opposed HB 182 and HB 183
Red Swanson
113 W. 5th Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 576-3896
Position Statement: Responded to environmental concerns
raised regarding HB 183
Representative Eldon Mulder
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 116
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Phone: 465-2647
Position Statement: Co-Sponsor, HB 182 and HB 183
Mike McKinnon
Acting Director of Planning
Department of Transportation and Public Facilities
6860 Glacier Highway
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7999
Phone: 465-1774
Position Statement: Responded to questions regarding
classification of lands under HB 183
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 182
SHORT TITLE: APPROP: FAIRBANKS-NOME TRANS. CORRIDOR
BILL VERSION:
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Mulder
TITLE: "An Act making a special appropriation to the
Department of Transportation and Public Facilities, northern
region, for identification and delineation of a
transportation and utility corridor between Fairbanks and
the Seward Peninsula; and providing for an effective date."
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/25/93 456 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)
02/25/93 456 (H) TRANSPORTATION, RESOURCES,
FINANCE
03/18/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/30/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/30/93 (H) MINUTE(TRA)
03/31/93 893 (H) TRA RPT 4DP 2NR
03/31/93 893 (H) DP: MULDER, FOSTER, G.DAVIS,
VEZEY
03/31/93 893 (H) NR: MACKIE, MENARD
04/01/93 920 (H) COSPONSOR(S): MULDER
04/14/93 (H) MINUTE(RES)
04/16/93 (H) RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HB 183
SHORT TITLE: TRANSPORTATION CORRIDOR: FAIRBANKS-NOME
BILL VERSION:
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Mulder
TITLE: "An Act directing the identification and delineation
of a transportation and utility corridor between Fairbanks
and the Seward Peninsula for road, rail, pipeline, and
electrical transmission purposes; and providing for an
effective date."
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/25/93 456 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)
02/25/93 456 (H) TRANSPORTATION, RESOURCES,
FINANCE
03/18/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/30/93 (H) TRA AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/30/93 (H) MINUTE(TRA)
03/31/93 893 (H) TRA RPT CS(TRA) 5DP 1NR
03/31/93 894 (H) DP: FOSTER, VEZEY, MULDER,
G.DAVIS,MENARD
03/31/93 894 (H) NR: MACKIE
03/31/93 894 (H) -FISCAL NOTE (DOT) 3/31/93
04/01/93 920 (H) COSPONSOR(S): MULDER
04/14/93 (H) MINUTE(RES)
04/16/93 (H) RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-45, SIDE A
Number 000
The House Resources Committee was called to order by
Chairman Bill Williams at 8:14 a.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Williams, Bunde, Carney,
Green, and James. Members absent at the call were
Representatives Hudson, Davies, Finkelstein and Mulder.
CHAIRMAN BILL WILLIAMS announced that the meeting would be
held by teleconference with sites in Fairbanks, Tanana, and
Nome, for the purpose of hearing HB 183 and HB 182. Because
the bills are closely related, he explained they would be
heard together, but would be voted on separately when the
time came to take action on each bill.
HB 182: APPROP: FAIRBANKS-NOME TRANS. CORRIDOR
HB 183: TRANSPORTATION CORRIDOR: FAIRBANKS-NOME
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES, PRIME SPONSOR of both HB 182
and HB 183, explained that HB 182 appropriates $7.3 million
to initiate the action authorized in HB 183. This involves
preliminary action in studying a potential corridor for
transportation and utilities between Fairbanks and Nome.
Number 038
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES explained that the state needs to
expand its infrastructure, and HB 183 directs the Department
of Transportation (DOT) to conduct the necessary surveying,
reconnaissance photography and other research that would
lead to a future rail or road corridor between Fairbanks and
the Seward Peninsula. She noted that a railway would offer
the most environmentally sound and controlled access, while
requiring less maintenance cost. Another cost savings of a
railway as opposed to a highway, she said, would be on state
trooper coverage of the route.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES stressed that gaining access to mineral
resources located in Northwestern Alaska was critical to
Alaska's economic future. She referred to a blank draft
committee substitute (CS) for HB 183, dated 4/12/93, in
members' packets, which included the addition of items (f)
and (g) on page 3, specifying the definition of "corridor"
and allowing for alternative funding sources for the
project. She then referred to a map which showed the
resources located within the general corridor area. (A copy
of the map may be found in the House Resources Committee
Room, Capitol Room 124, and after the adjournment of the
second session of the 18th Alaska State Legislature, in the
Legislative Reference Library.)
Number 088
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN noted that the language in HB 183
referred to development of either a road or railway, and
asked Representative James to clarify which was preferred,
or whether both were to be built.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES reiterated her support of a railroad,
but noted that the decision should best be left to future
generations who would see the corridor actually developed.
The map, she explained, shows a possible corridor route and
potential mineral access. The criteria for the corridor
would include how practical it would be to build in certain
areas.
Number 124
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if the potential corridor route
was selected to be the most cost-effective, the most direct,
or the least damaging to the environment.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied that a number of factors would
be taken into consideration, including the location of
villages along the route, access to minerals, environmental
effects, and cost.
Number 142
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS referred to the draft CS, and the language
on page 3, line 2, which allows the commissioner of the DOT
to "accept gifts."
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES explained that the language was
intended to make it possible for funding to come from
private and other sources. She was willing to work with the
committee on the exact wording to allow flexibility in
funding.
Number 182
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested the wording be changed to
"may accept funding from legal sources." He made a MOTION
to AMEND the draft CS to reflect that the DOT's commissioner
should be able to accept legal grants and gifts for funding
the project.
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections to the
motion. Hearing none, the MOTION PASSED.
Number 200
REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE asked whether the corridor would
extend to the Canadian border.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES noted that there is an existing
corridor from the Canadian border to Eielson Air Force base.
She referred to HB 183, which examines the estimated costs
for extending the corridor.
Number 216
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted that Representative David
Finkelstein had joined the meeting.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether the corridor would cross
federal or Native-owned lands.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES replied that the state has been
selecting lands in prospective corridors. She noted that
the Bering Straits Native Association had indicated a
preference for leasing their lands, and she added that there
are some federal wilderness areas within the proposed
corridor. Before settling land ownership issues, she
explained, the state first had to identify the potential
corridor route.
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS announced the committee would next hear
teleconference testimony, with the first site being Nome.
Number 247
JIM STIMPFLE, NOME CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, testifying by
teleconference from Nome, noted that he had not yet seen the
draft CS. He said that from the descriptions of the changes
in the CS, he believed it would accommodate future
interests.
Number 260
MR. STIMPFLE noted that some of the issues he felt were
important for the committee to consider surrounded the fact
that this would be a large project that might not come about
for a number of years. Passage of HB 182 and HB 183, he
said, would send a signal to Alaskans that such a project is
important for the future of the state to broaden its
economic base. While revenues are currently declining, he
said, it remains important to make investments that will pay
off in the future.
MR. STIMPFLE remarked on some concerns he heard raised in
Nome, from land owners, village corporations, and regional
corporations. He felt the concerns could be addressed to
the benefit of the state and those interests. He commented
that those village and regional corporations want to see
development of a utility and transportation corridor either
nearby or across their lands. Regarding the corridor's
involvement of private, federal and Native-owned lands, he
said that in his own review of the project, it appeared that
at least 50% of the right of way to the lands between the
Seward Peninsula and Fairbanks is on federal lands.
MR. STIMPFLE said the remaining 50% is divided between the
state and other major land-owners, including village and
regional corporations.
Number 312
MR. STIMPFLE suggested that by shifting the corridor between
six to 25 miles, the state could maximize either village
participation or state lands. If people who live along any
proposed right-of-way are interested in the corridor, he
predicted the project could go forward. He urged the
committee to give serious consideration to HB 182 and
HB 183.
FRANK IRELAN, testified by teleconference from Nome. He
expressed concern that the result of including language in
HB 183 allowing private funding of the corridor project
could be that the government might take the view that the
private sector should take responsibility for funding it.
The whole project, he speculated, could be shut down because
everyone would be waiting for someone else to pay for it.
Number 336
POLLY WHEELER, DEPUTY DIRECTOR AND SENIOR RESEARCHER FOR
WILDLIFE AND PARKS, TANANA CHIEFS CONFERENCE, testified by
teleconference from Anchorage in opposition to HB 182 and
HB 183. She stated that proponents of the corridor have
argued that it would aid in economic development. She
disagreed with this, and said that subsistence is the
primary economic system in most of the villages between
Fairbanks and Nome. The corridor would have a negative
impact on the subsistence lifestyle by providing increased
access to those areas.
MS. WHEELER, regarding the argument that a railroad would
limit access, disagreed and said this would still provide a
vehicle by which more people would go in and compete for
resources which are already heavily used. She stressed that
rural people are already fighting for their subsistence
rights and access to resources. The project, she said,
would not bring significant economic gain to the region, and
would not pay for itself. Promises that big projects will
result in local jobs, she cautioned, has proven not to be
the case in the past.
MS. WHEELER commented that maintenance and public safety
costs would also strain state budgets, which she said are
already insufficient to cover the existing roads in the
state. The people in villages along the corridor would be
directly affected by the project, she explained, and Tanana
Chiefs feel they would be hurt by the project.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVID FINKELSTEIN asked Ms. Wheeler if she
knew of any village in her area that supports the proposed
corridor route.
MS. WHEELER answered in the negative.
JULIE ROBERTS testified by teleconference from Tanana. She
addressed problems she saw with HB 182 and HB 183. Tanana
has long been questioned as to whether the village would
support such a transportation corridor. She referred to a
mass murder in Manly Hot Springs in the early 1980's, and
said that this was a reason Tanana had sought to keep access
limited to the community.
MS. ROBERTS noted that the subsistence lifestyle is
important in the community, and said the people have not had
the opportunity to voice their opinion on the development of
a transportation corridor that would affect the way of life
there. She also questioned where the money would come from
for such a project.
Number 437
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES shared Ms. Roberts concerns, and hoped
that all parties involved would have the opportunity to have
input into decisions about the development of any corridor.
Number 450
HERBIE EDWIN, VILLAGE OF TANANA COUNCIL MEMBER, objected to
the corridor proposed in HB 182 and HB 183 because of its
negative impact on the subsistence lifestyle. Increased
access would jeopardize the resources that the village
relies upon, he said. He stressed that the state could make
better use of its funds by investing in education. He also
pointed out the need to respect the village's sovereign
right to regulate projects that affect the village.
Number 475
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES clarified that in delineation of the
corridor, the village of Tanana would not necessarily be
accessed, and would only access the village if the citizens
of the community wanted it to.
MR. EDWIN replied that in some form, villages along the
route would be affected by increased access, whether by a
road or railway.
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted that Representatives Eldon Mulder
and John Davies had joined the meeting.
Number 495
MR. STIMPFLE testified again from Nome. He stated that the
comments made by the previous witnesses needed to be heard.
He hoped that the village corporations along the proposed
right of way would be allowed to participate in defining the
route. He suggested that the concerns raised about access
lend further merit to the idea that a railway would be a
better option in terms of access and environmental impact,
as well as being more sensitive to the ownership interests
of people along the route.
Number 506
MR. STIMPFLE suggested that some of the money allocated for
studying the proposed corridor should be spent on efforts to
gain input from those affected along the right-of-way.
Number 518
RED SWANSON, FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE FROM FAIRBANKS,
testified in Juneau regarding concerns raised about the
environmental impact a corridor might have on wetlands along
the route. He noted that at one time the Tanana and Minto
flats were flooded with eight to ten feet of water. A
railroad there would not be viable at all, he testified. He
also described the Tanana and Minto flats as one of the
largest swan nesting areas in the United States. Language
in HB 183, he said, allows the DOT to delineate a corridor
that would eliminate any development in those flats. He
also mentioned that the village of Tanana has a road.
Number 540
MR. EDWIN explained that the road in Tanana is just ten
miles or so long and does not have access to anywhere.
Number 548
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN explained his opposition to
HB 182 and HB 183. He remarked that the DOT already has a
statewide master plan that allows planning of roads and
corridors. The only thing that can stop the development of
a road at this time, he said, is a legislative act
specifically forbidding that development. He did not want
to indicate that the legislature feels this is the direction
the state should be going. The state already has a $100
million backlog of proposed road projects, and this should
not be a priority, he said.
Number 563
REPRESENTATIVE ELDON MULDER, CO-SPONSOR OF HB 182 and
HB 183, called the current discussion a philosophical one,
with the reality of being able to actually spend $7 million
a remote one. He said the bills give an indication of the
direction the state wants to go with its infrastructure to
gain access to its resources. He stated that everyone has a
vested interest in supporting the bills and encouraging
their passage because each Alaskan has a vested interest in
opening up the state to resource development.
Number 585
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES added his view that there are
many other priorities for spending $7 million. He
specifically pointed out the number of roads in need of
reconstruction, and said if there is an inadequate amount of
money to maintain existing roads, it would not be wise to
add infrastructure we cannot afford to maintain.
Number 598
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES pointed out that Alaskans need to let
the world know we are in business and she believed that HB
182 and HB 183 does that. She added that the House Finance
committee would be the proper place for deciding whether the
project is funded. She urged committee members to keep in
mind that the two bills should be looked at separately, with
one as a statement as to what direction the state wants to
take, and the other as a mechanism for funding that
direction.
REPRESENTATIVE MULDER MOVED that the committee ADOPT the
draft CSHB 183 (RES), as amended. He asked unanimous
consent.
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections.
Hearing none, the MOTION PASSED.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked about language on page 2, line
2, requiring the DOT to classify, reclassify and reserve
lands in the proposed corridor area. He asked whether those
activities were a function already performed by the
Department of Natural Resources (DNR).
Number 621
MIKE MCKINNON, ACTING DIRECTOR OF PLANNING, DOT, explained
that the language to classify and reclassify lands was
simply for the purposes of reconnaissance engineering, and
he did not believe it was a DNR-level action.
Number 628
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked whether there was anything
in HB 182 and HB 183 that directs the DNR to do anything it
does not already have the power to do.
Number 632
MR. MCKINNON replied that the DOT has a mandate to do long-
range planning. House Bill 182 and HB 183 gives the
department an indication that it is the legislature's
priority to investigate this corridor in terms of
reconnaissance engineering. He added that some of those
efforts provide a forum for the kinds of discussion and
testimony raised at this meeting.
Number 643
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked if the legislature
appropriated the money, would the DOT need a separate
authorization to do the planning work.
MR. MCKINNON replied that the DOT often receives specific
direction from the legislature to do corridor studies in
certain regions of the state. Bradford Canal and Juneau
access were two examples he cited. He noted that the DOT
has the authority by statute to do planning studies, but
also initiates those studies as a result of legislative
direction.
Number 656
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES referred to the DOT's Cordova road
situation, and asked if the department had received
legislative direction to move forward with that.
Number 665
MR. MCKINNON replied that the DOT moved forward on its own
initiative on the Copper River Highway project, after
approximately 15 years of initial studies and planning.
Number 670
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any further discussion
or questions.
Number 675
REPRESENTATIVE MULDER made a MOTION to MOVE CSHB 183 (RES)
with individual recommendations. He asked unanimous
consent.
TAPE 93-45, SIDE B
Number 000
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections.
Hearing none, the MOTION PASSED.
REPRESENTATIVE MULDER made a MOTION to MOVE HB 182 from
committee with individual recommendations. He asked
unanimous consent.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES OBJECTED. His objection was based on
his belief that the state should not spend this amount of
money on this project at this time.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN recognized the fiscal dilemma of the
state, forcing legislators to take actions many felt was
less than desirable. The declining resource base, he said,
should emphasize the need to expand access to resources in
the interior region of the state. Because it would take 15
to 20 years or more before the corridor is developed, he
suggested the legislature should act now.
Number 079
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked for a roll call vote on the motion
before the committee. Voting YEA were Representatives
Carney, Green, James, Mulder, and Williams. Voting NO were
Representatives Finkelstein and Davies. The MOTION CARRIED.
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted that the meeting was now off
teleconference. He directed members' attention to the final
draft of the committee's letter of explanation to accompany
committee reports on the confirmation of five appointees to
the Board of Game. The committee took an at ease to allow
members time to read the letter.
Number 101
REPRESENTATIVE PAT CARNEY referred to the last part of the
last paragraph on page 2, and expressed concern with wording
regarding geographical representation on the Board of Game.
He thought it would be preferable to say "If Mr. Didrickson
is confirmed, we are faced with a board which deviates from
the traditional geographic representation."
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS reminded members that the letter was in
draft form and a motion was not necessary to make
corrections and changes.
Number 140
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to the third to the last line,
and commented that there was a typographical error that
required the deletion of a second "and."
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked members if they were satisfied with
the basic content of the letter and whether they were ready
to make a motion to transmit the letter on to the full
legislature along with the committee reports.
Number 164
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE made a MOTION to MOVE the letter
stating the committee's concerns on the confirmations of
appointees to the Board of Game, to accompany the names for
a vote on the floor.
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections.
Hearing none, the MOTION CARRIED.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
Number 172
CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS reminded members that they would meet the
following day, Saturday, April 17, 1993, at 10:00 a.m. to
2:00 p.m., to take public testimony in a statewide
teleconference on HB 238. He noted that a copy of a House
Resources Committee press release on the teleconference had
been widely distributed. He also announced that the
committee would meet at 8:00 a.m. on Monday, April 19 to
hear SB 43 and SB 46, as well as a resolution authorizing
IFQ (Individual Fishing Quota) blocking.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to come before the House
Resources Committee, Chairman Williams adjourned the meeting
at 9:17 a.m.
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