Legislature(2017 - 2018)BARNES 124

04/26/2017 01:00 PM RESOURCES

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
+= HB 197 COMMUNITY SEED LIBRARIES TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Public Testimony --
+= HB 107 FISH ENHANCEMENT PERMITS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Public Testimony --
**Streamed live on AKL.tv**
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         April 26, 2017                                                                                         
                           1:03 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Andy Josephson, Co-Chair                                                                                         
Representative Geran Tarr, Co-Chair                                                                                             
Representative Dean Westlake, Vice Chair                                                                                        
Representative Harriet Drummond                                                                                                 
Representative Justin Parish                                                                                                    
Representative Chris Birch                                                                                                      
Representative DeLena Johnson                                                                                                   
Representative George Rauscher                                                                                                  
Representative David Talerico                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Mike Chenault (alternate)                                                                                        
Representative Chris Tuck (alternate)                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 107                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to certain fish; and establishing a fisheries                                                                  
enhancement permit."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD & HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 197                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the duties of the commissioner of natural                                                                   
resources; relating to agriculture; and relating to community                                                                   
seed libraries."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD & HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 107                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: FISH ENHANCEMENT PERMITS                                                                                           
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) TALERICO                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
02/06/17       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/06/17       (H)       FSH, RES                                                                                               
02/28/17       (H)       FSH AT 10:00 AM GRUENBERG 120                                                                          
02/28/17       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/28/17       (H)       MINUTE(FSH)                                                                                            
04/18/17       (H)       FSH AT 10:00 AM GRUENBERG 120                                                                          
04/18/17       (H)       Moved CSHB 107(FSH) Out of Committee                                                                   
04/18/17       (H)       MINUTE(FSH)                                                                                            
04/19/17       (H)       FSH RPT CS(FSH) NT 2DP 3NR                                                                             
04/19/17       (H)       DP: EASTMAN, FANSLER                                                                                   
04/19/17       (H)       NR: NEUMAN, KREISS-TOMKINS, STUTES                                                                     
04/19/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
04/19/17       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/19/17       (H)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
04/21/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
04/21/17       (H)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
04/26/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 197                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: COMMUNITY SEED LIBRARIES                                                                                           
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) JOHNSTON                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
03/24/17       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
03/24/17       (H)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
04/10/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
04/10/17       (H)       -- MEETING CANCELED --                                                                                 
04/12/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
04/12/17       (H)       Scheduled but Not Heard                                                                                
04/13/17       (H)       RES AT 5:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
04/13/17       (H)       -- Continued from 4/12/17 --                                                                           
04/17/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
04/17/17       (H)       Scheduled but Not Heard                                                                                
04/19/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
04/19/17       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
04/19/17       (H)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
04/26/17       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM MR. ASHTONRNES 124                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
ELIJAH VERHAGEN, Staff                                                                                                          
Representative Dave Talerico                                                                                                    
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  On behalf of Representative Talerico,                                                                    
sponsor, answered questions regarding CSHB 107(FSH).                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
FORREST BOWERS, Deputy Director                                                                                                 
Division of Commercial Fisheries                                                                                                
Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                                                                              
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions regarding CSHB 107(FSH).                                                              
                                                                                                                                
OLIVER HOLM                                                                                                                     
Kodiak, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified about his concerns regarding HB                                                                
107.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
ALEXUS KWACHKA                                                                                                                  
Kodiak, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 107.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ROBERTA HIGHLAND                                                                                                                
Homer, Alaska                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 107.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ERIC GEBHART, Superintendent                                                                                                    
Nenana City School District                                                                                                     
Nenana, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 107.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
DAVID OTNESS                                                                                                                    
Cordova, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 107.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
BRIAN ASHTON                                                                                                                    
Wrangell, Alaska                                                                                                                
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on his own behalf and                                                                          
representing Tanana Chiefs Conference in support of HB 107.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SARAH OBED, Vice President of External Affairs                                                                                  
Doyon, Limited                                                                                                                  
Fairbanks, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 107.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
TERRANOVA TASKER, Staff                                                                                                         
Representative Jennifer Johnston                                                                                                
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  On behalf of Representative Johnston,                                                                    
sponsor, presented the changes made in Version O, the proposed                                                                  
committee substitute for HB 197.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ROB CARTER, Manager                                                                                                             
Plant Materials Center                                                                                                          
Division of Agriculture                                                                                                         
Department of Natural Resources                                                                                                 
Palmer, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions relating to HB 197.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
DEIRDRE HELFFREICH                                                                                                              
Ester, Alaska                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT:   Testified  in support of  HB 197,  but noted                                                            
her concern with some of the provisions in Version O.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
JAN FLORA                                                                                                                       
Homer, Alaska                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 197, Version O.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JENNIFER JOHNSTON                                                                                                
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:   As sponsor  of HB 197, provided  her opinion                                                            
on the language in a proposed amendment to the bill.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:03:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR   GERAN  TARR   called  the   House  Resources   Standing                                                            
Committee meeting  to order  at 1:03  p.m.  Representatives  Tarr,                                                              
Birch, Parish, Talerico,  Westlake, and Josephson  were present at                                                              
the  call  to  order.    Representatives  Johnson,  Drummond,  and                                                              
Rauscher arrived as the meeting was in progress.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
                HB 107-FISH ENHANCEMENT PERMITS                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:05:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  announced that  the first  order of business  would                                                              
be  HOUSE BILL  NO. 107  "An  Act relating  to  certain fish;  and                                                              
establishing  a fisheries  rehabilitation  permit."   [Before  the                                                              
committee was CSHB 107(FSH).]                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:05:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ELIJAH  VERHAGEN,  Staff,  Representative  Dave  Talerico,  Alaska                                                              
State   Legislature,  on   behalf   of  Representative   Talerico,                                                              
sponsor, stated the sponsor would like to offer some amendments.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR noted  that CSHB  107(FSH)  is the  version of  the                                                              
bill before the committee.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:06:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO  moved to  adopt Amendment 1,  labeled 30-                                                              
LS0396\R.1, Bullard, 4/21/17, which read:                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 16:                                                                                                           
     Delete "A"                                                                                                                 
          Insert "The commissioner may modify, suspend, or                                                                      
     revoke  a permit  issued  under  this section  for  good                                                                   
     cause.  If   a  permittee   violates  this  section,   a                                                                   
     regulation  adopted under this  section, or a  condition                                                                   
     of   a   permit   issued   under   this   section,   the                                                                   
     commissioner  may,  after giving  the  permittee  notice                                                                   
     and  an opportunity  to be  heard, suspend  or revoke  a                                                                   
     permit issued under this section.                                                                                          
          (j) Subject to (i) of this section, a"                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Reletter the following subsection accordingly.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR objected for discussion purposes.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:08:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at ease.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:08:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TALERICO  explained   Amendment  1  addresses  the                                                              
issue  of  certain occasions  "when  something  is  misunderstood,                                                              
what do we  actually do, you know,  to correct that, and  so this,                                                              
this  amendment was  brought forward  to  address that  particular                                                              
issue."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:09:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
FORREST   BOWERS,   deputy  director,   Division   of   Commercial                                                              
Fisheries,  Alaska Department  of  Fish and  Game (ADFG),  further                                                              
explained  Amendment 1  would add  provisions that  allow for  the                                                              
revocation  or  amendment  of  a permit.    These  provisions,  he                                                              
continued,  are   consistent  with  language  in   [ADFG's]  other                                                              
permitting  regulations  and statutes,  and  [ADFG]  would try  to                                                              
work  with   the  permittee   first  if   any  deficiencies   were                                                              
identified.   [The  department's] intent  would be  to try  to get                                                              
the  deficiencies   and  the  course  corrected   rather  than  to                                                              
immediately  revoke a permit.   Sometimes  things don't  always go                                                              
as  planned, he  said, or  the permittee's  plans  change, or  the                                                              
permittee  is no  longer interested  in pursuing  the project,  or                                                              
the project  doesn't  work out the  way the  permittee thought  it                                                              
would.  In  these cases, Amendment  1 would allow for  a permittee                                                              
to apply for an  amendment and/or if someone was  unable to follow                                                              
through  with  the  permit  terms  or  was  violating  the  terms,                                                              
Amendment 1 would  give the department the ability  to revoke that                                                              
permit.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:11:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR,  in  regard  to  other  types  of  permits,  asked                                                              
whether it  is always the  power of the  commissioner to  revoke a                                                              
permit and be the decision-maker.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOWERS  replied correct.   Often  that authority is  delegated                                                              
to other  staff in the department,  he added, but  ultimately that                                                              
is the commissioner's authority.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:11:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   BIRCH  recalled   hearing  testimony   about  the                                                              
concern  of   spreading  maladaptive  traits,  for   example,  the                                                              
hatchery  could   adversely  influence  the   normal  evolutionary                                                              
practice of  salmon spawning in a  stream.  He said it  seems like                                                              
this proposal  would sidetrack  all of  that because salmon  would                                                              
not be  raised in a  hatchery, rather it  is fertilizing  the eggs                                                              
and then  immediately discharging  them into their  source waters.                                                              
He  asked  how  that  could adversely  impact  a  natural  run  of                                                              
salmon.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOWERS  responded that  the concern is  about loss  of genetic                                                              
diversity or loss  of fitness, and is a concern that  is heard and                                                              
associated  with almost  any enhancement  project.   He said  this                                                              
bill   would  allow   for  small-scale   fishery  enhancement   or                                                              
rehabilitation.   Eyed eggs  would be placed  into the  gravel and                                                              
the fry  would not be  fed.  Another  concern that has  been heard                                                              
is  that wild  fish select  mates  using adaptive  characteristics                                                              
that have  evolved through  natural selection.   In a  hatchery or                                                              
enhancement setting,  humans are doing the mate  selection for the                                                              
fish  and so  there could  be some  loss of  fitness through  that                                                              
process  because  humans  don't  know  all  the  drivers  of  mate                                                              
selection.   He acknowledged  that is  a valid  concern.   But, he                                                              
continued, having  a large population and spawning  enough fish in                                                              
the rehabilitation  project  can provide  mitigation to prevent  a                                                              
bottleneck to genetic diversity.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BIRCH surmised  that  Amendment  1 would  preserve                                                              
[ADFG's] ability to manage that.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOWERS  agreed that  language in the  bill would  allow [ADFG]                                                              
to provide those stipulations in the permit.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:15:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at-ease.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:16:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR removed  her objection to Amendment 1.   There being                                                              
no further objection, Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:16:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO  moved to  adopt Amendment 2,  labeled 30-                                                              
LS0396\R.2, Bullard, 4/25/17, which read:                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 29, through page 5, line 2:                                                                                   
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill section accordingly.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:16:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR objected for discussion purposes.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO  thanked Co-Chair Josephson  for a lengthy                                                              
discussion  with him  in regard  to [section  2 of  the bill]  and                                                              
said  as  a  result  of  this  discussion,  he  was  told  by  the                                                              
Legislative  Legal Services that  [section 2]  doesn't need  to be                                                              
in  the   bill  because   it  doesn't   really  address   anything                                                              
particularly  like that.   [Section 2], he  continued, was  put in                                                              
when  the bill  was drafted  to connect  to a  particular area  of                                                              
statute, but  it didn't need to  be connected, which is  why he is                                                              
bringing forward Amendment 2.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:18:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR said  Amendment  2  would delete  section  2 and  a                                                              
concern  was raised  that  the  amendment could  potentially  mean                                                              
that  one doing  a  construction project  could  participate in  a                                                              
rehabilitation  permit instead  of mitigating  the impacts  of the                                                              
construction.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:19:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at-ease.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:20:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PARISH asked  whether section  2 is being  deleted                                                              
because  it  is  already  the  case   that  the  department  could                                                              
consider   this   sort   of   project   as   an   alternative   to                                                              
rehabilitation.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOWERS agreed  section 2 has created confusion  and apologized                                                              
for  not accurately  characterizing  the  intent  of this  section                                                              
when he  was last  before the committee.   He  said he  spoke with                                                              
the  Department  of  Law  after   attending  the  meeting  between                                                              
Representative  Talerico and  Co-Chair Josephson.   Section  2, he                                                              
explained, relates  to AS 16.05.871, which addresses  fish habitat                                                              
permits that  would be  issued related  to construction  projects.                                                              
He  surmised  section  2  was  originally  included  in  the  bill                                                              
because it  is possible that  some of the rehabilitation  projects                                                              
that would  be permitted under HB  107 might require one  of those                                                              
permits as well.   Regardless of whether section 2  remains in the                                                              
bill,  he said, [ADFG]  would still  go through  the same  process                                                              
for  those  permits.    It  just  adds  another  bit  of  language                                                              
referencing those  permits, and  that the commissioner  would have                                                              
to  consider whether  a person  had one  of these  HB 107  permits                                                              
when evaluating a person's fish habitat permit application.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:23:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR removed  her objection to Amendment 2.   There being                                                              
no further objection, Amendment 2 was adopted.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:23:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON,  in regard to Mr. Bowers'  statement that ADFG                                                              
hears  concerns  about  enhancement programs,  asked  whether  the                                                              
concerns  expressed  about this  program  are different  in  type.                                                              
For  example, he  noted, other  hatcheries are  tied generally  to                                                              
some quasi-governmental institution while this one isn't.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BOWERS responded  that the  concerns are  similar.   Concerns                                                              
about  genetics, loss  of genetic  diversity in  wild stocks,  and                                                              
interbreeding  between  hatchery  and  wild  fish  are  the  major                                                              
concerns  that are  heard  by [ADFG].    Also  heard are  concerns                                                              
about pathology  or the introduction  of disease, he said.   Other                                                              
fishery  management issues  come  up that  are  related to  large-                                                              
scale  hatcheries,  but  those   are  separate  from  the  biology                                                              
aspects.  The  biological concerns, he continued,  are universally                                                              
heard  on  any  enhancement  or  rehabilitation  type  of  program                                                              
involving a hatchery.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:25:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOSEPHSON inquired  about  ADFG's  internal process  and                                                              
whether  there  is  robust  debate within  the  department.    For                                                              
example,  he continued,  whether the  hatchery biologist  provides                                                              
an opinion  and whether that bounces  back up to the  directors in                                                              
the top echelons for an internal debate.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BOWERS answered  there  is an  internal  review process  that                                                              
involves staff  from the Division  of Sport Fish and  the Division                                                              
of Commercial  Fisheries.  The review  process starts at  the area                                                              
level, he explained.   Staff from the area office  located closest                                                              
to the  project in question and  most familiar with  the resources                                                              
will review and  comment on the application.  It  then comes up in                                                              
the  regional office  for additional  review and  comment, and  if                                                              
there are  concerns the  applicant is  asked for clarification  or                                                              
ADFG  may  put  stipulations  on   the  permit  to  address  those                                                              
concerns.  Ultimately  there is a review by staff  in headquarters                                                              
at the director's  level and, if warranted, at  the commissioner's                                                              
level.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:27:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON  asked whether ADFG's  position on the  bill is                                                              
neutral.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BOWERS   replied  that  the   department  doesn't   have  any                                                              
objections  to  the bill.    Some  of the  bill's  provisions  are                                                              
stronger  in   terms  of  the   conservation  measures   than  the                                                              
department's  current  bio-enhancement  and research  permit,  and                                                              
the department  sees it  as a little  duplicative of  its existing                                                              
permits.   But,  he  continued,  he would  say  the department  is                                                              
"neutral leaning towards positive."                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:28:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WESTLAKE   offered  his  understanding   that  the                                                              
indigenous fish  are taken from a  stream, put in a  hatchery, and                                                              
then the  [offspring of  these] fish are  released into  the "fish                                                              
eat  fish  world."     He  questioned  the  argument   on  genetic                                                              
inferiority if these  fish come back and have  survived along with                                                              
all the other fish.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOWERS  responded  that it is  not necessarily  a question  of                                                              
inferiority but  a question of potential  loss of diversity.   For                                                              
example,  he  explained,  suppose  there is  a  salmon  population                                                              
spawning  in  a  particular  body  of  water  and  an  enhancement                                                              
project  is done  where  only  certain individuals  are  selected,                                                              
such  as selecting  a certain  size of  fish or  selecting from  a                                                              
spot where  the fish  are easier  to catch.   Doing that  and then                                                              
putting  them into  the incubation  or  rearing setting  increases                                                              
the  survival  of  those  eggs  and  juveniles  so  they  have  an                                                              
advantage and  may be able to  out-compete the other  fish because                                                              
of  that advantage.    The intent  is  to increase  survival,  and                                                              
selecting   certain  individuals   in   the  population,   whether                                                              
intentionally or not, disadvantages the other individuals.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:30:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER  inquired whether  there is a  fiscal note                                                              
from   the  Division   of  Agriculture,   Department  of   Natural                                                              
Resources.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  replied that  the fiscal notes  are from  ADFG, not                                                              
the Division  of Agriculture.    She offered  her belief that  the                                                              
fiscal notes are  zero because ADFG [already] issues  permits, and                                                              
the bill would not change the type of work that is being done.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOWERS  confirmed that  Co-Chair Tarr is  correct.  He  said a                                                              
team  is already  in  place that  evaluates  this  type of  permit                                                              
application and  the department doesn't anticipate  a large number                                                              
of   permit  applications   if  the   bill  becomes   law.     The                                                              
applications would  be absorbed into  the normal workload,  no new                                                              
staff  would  be   hired,  and  no  funding  increment   would  be                                                              
requested for this program.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR,  responding to  Representative Rauscher,  confirmed                                                              
the fiscal note [Identifier:  HB107-DFG-DCF-02-24-17] is zero.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  VERHAGEN  pointed  out  that   the  bill  includes  a  permit                                                              
application fee of  $100, and said this fee should  cover the cost                                                              
of the permit should there be any extra workload.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:32:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR reopened public testimony.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:32:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
OLIVER  HOLM  testified  he is  not  against  salmon  enhancement,                                                              
which  is  evidenced by  his  30  years  volunteering as  a  board                                                              
member  of a  regional salmon  enhancement program.   However,  he                                                              
said, he has  some concerns with  the bill.  He drew  attention to                                                              
section  1, page 2,  lines 14-15,  which state,  "the species  and                                                              
number of fish  to be taken and,  if applicable, the number  to be                                                              
taken for brood  stock".  He said this implies that  fish would be                                                              
permitted  to be taken  that weren't  for brood  stock and  taking                                                              
numbers beyond  brood stock  would be of  great concern.   He then                                                              
brought  attention to  section  1, page  2,  lines [24-31],  which                                                              
provides  that  the  department  may issue  a  permit  under  this                                                              
section  if  the  commissioner determines  that  the  project  may                                                              
restore or  increase a population  of fish in  a body of  water in                                                              
which "the  population of  the species  of fish  is limited".   He                                                              
stated that  all populations  of fish  are limited, and  therefore                                                              
this provision seems "wide open".                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOLM  further noted  that the  egg limit  of 500,000  with the                                                              
permits  could mean  the taking  of 200 to  500-plus adult  salmon                                                              
for  their  eggs.   Because  this  could  be significant  to  some                                                              
depressed  populations,  he said  he  hopes the  department  would                                                              
have  the liberty  to disallow  granting permits  in places  where                                                              
the  salmon [numbers]  are too  depressed.   He further  expressed                                                              
his concern  about the added  burden to  ADFG without money  to do                                                              
this.  He offered  his belief that the permitting  section will be                                                              
losing another  position in the  next budget year.   Additionally,                                                              
he  cautioned, the  bill would  set tight  timelines for  handling                                                              
and  issuing  the   permits,  which  may  be  difficult   for  the                                                              
department to  accomplish without  reducing its ability  to handle                                                              
regular permitting  for the regional aquaculture  associations and                                                              
the other nonprofits.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:35:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  offered her understanding  that Mr. Holm  is saying                                                              
the limit  of 500,000 eggs  would require  the taking of  from 200                                                              
to 500 adult salmon  to harvest the eggs and that  that may be too                                                              
many for an area where the stock is challenged or strained.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOLM  replied  correct, the  average  fecundity  of  sockeye,                                                              
king, coho, and chum salmon is in that ballpark.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:36:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ALEXUS  KWACHKA testified  he is  adamantly opposed  to the  bill.                                                              
He  agreed with  Mr.  Bowers that  it is  duplicative  of what  is                                                              
already  being done  [by  ADFG].   He said  [Alaska]  can look  to                                                              
Europe,  the East  Coast, and  the  West Coast  for failed  salmon                                                              
policies.   [Alaska]  has an excellent  resource  and needs  to be                                                              
concentrating on  taking care of  the fish that are  returning and                                                              
figuring  out how  to encourage  them to  spawn more  and be  more                                                              
productive without  playing with Mother Nature.  This  bill is the                                                              
wrong way  to go.   Degradation is  already occurring  in Alaska's                                                              
streams,  such as illegal  crossing of  streams by  four-wheelers,                                                              
he continued,  and he does not want  this bill to be  an avenue to                                                              
shore-up  species that  are  being  impacted by  humans.   A  much                                                              
better job  can be  done of  managing what  the state  already has                                                              
without  tinkering with  Mother Nature.   It  is critical  to keep                                                              
the diversity  and survivability  of the  fish that are  returning                                                              
to [Alaska's]  streams without introducing  who knows what.   Good                                                              
intentions, he cautioned, have paved the pathways to hell.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:38:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ROBERTA HIGHLAND testified  she is opposed to the bill.   She said                                                              
more  information  is  needed  to  review  the  research  that  is                                                              
already at [the  state's] disposal.  Adding fish may  sound like a                                                              
solution,  but  it  has  far-reaching  consequences,  she  stated.                                                              
Every time fish  are added somewhere it possibly  weakens the wild                                                              
stocks and those  are what should be concentrated  on.  Hatcheries                                                              
bring many problems,  she continued, and these  problems have been                                                              
ignored  for a  long time.   Overtaxing  a food  source by  adding                                                              
from  five  hundred  thousand  to  one  hundred  million  fish  is                                                              
messing around  with Mother Nature.   Whenever humans  have messed                                                              
around with Mother  Nature there have been consequences  that were                                                              
not considered  because humans cannot  outthink all  the different                                                              
issues, she added.   Human stupidity is responsible  for degrading                                                              
the  habitat.   She  reiterated  her opposition  to  the bill  and                                                              
urged it be held until the research is done.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:40:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR inquired  whether  Ms.  Highland has  sources  that                                                              
could  be read  in regard  to  the issue  of  overtaxing the  food                                                              
source for the  other salmon.  She offered her  understanding that                                                              
a stream  has a  certain food source  supply for  the fry  as they                                                              
are  developing   and  what  Ms.   Highland  is  saying   is  that                                                              
artificial inflation  of the  number of fry  will create  too much                                                              
competition for the available food source.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. HIGHLAND replied  that a lot of new research  is coming out on                                                              
hatcheries.   She said  Paul Greenburg's book,  Fish on  My Plate,                                                            
talks  about this  problem and  that  Mr. Greenburg  spoke on  the                                                              
program  called "Talk  of Alaska"  on [04/25/17].   She agreed  to                                                              
provide information to the committee on this issue.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:42:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ERIC  GEBHART,   Superintendent,  Nenana  City   School  District,                                                              
testified  in  support  of  the  bill.    He  said  the  principal                                                              
interest  of the  school district  is the  educational benefit  of                                                              
students,  and  the  bill  would  be  of  educational  benefit  to                                                              
students.   The bill would  encourage curriculum  development that                                                              
would  meet   educational  standards   in  science   and  cultural                                                              
standards, he  continued.   The school district  would be  able to                                                              
work  with parties  who are  educated in  this area  to teach  the                                                              
students about  how to enhance and  restore the wild  salmon runs.                                                              
He  added that  he is  speaking  in support  of  the bill  because                                                              
students, teachers, and the community are interested.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:43:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAVID OTNESS  testified that  while he hears  the concerns  on the                                                              
bill, he  is unable to  connect the dots.   For example,  he said,                                                              
if  a salmon  run is  ready to  go  extinct, the  best thing  that                                                              
could  be  done would  be  to  enhance it.    The  bill  is not  a                                                              
hatchery  bill,  he  stated,  and   there  would  be  no  food  or                                                              
antibiotics; it would  be as natural as it can  get without having                                                              
the  salmon in  the wild.    In regard  to  genetic selection,  he                                                              
noted  that the  usual means  of fertilizing  the eggs  is to  use                                                              
several males,  but if it  is already down  to a point  of minimum                                                              
access to  a species, the  choices are  limited and at  that point                                                              
fewer males might  be used than would usually be  done.  The point                                                              
is to save  the run and to enhance  it, he said.  The  bill is not                                                              
about  urban  areas  that  are   overrun  with  four-wheelers,  he                                                              
continued,  but  rather  about   villages  up  north  and  smaller                                                              
communities  that don't have  intense pressure,  and therefore  he                                                              
doesn't think  the points being  made by the other  testifiers are                                                              
valid.   Up north there are  many environmental stressors  for the                                                              
fish going both upstream and downstream, he added.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. OTNESS  said the bill  is timely for  his area because  on the                                                              
Copper River  there have been some  real issues in  the commercial                                                              
salmon fishery.   Last year was  a total bust for the  seiners and                                                              
the  gillnetters,  he related,  but  a  late  season hit  of  coho                                                              
salvaged  the season  for  many people.    This year's  management                                                              
plan will allow  a total catch of 4,000 king salmon  on the Copper                                                              
River, he reported,  while in the past this river  has supported a                                                              
commercial fishery  of upwards  of 60,000 king  salmon.   For some                                                              
reason the  kings are not getting  back, which puts  the viability                                                              
of the  salmon run  in question,  and also  shuts down  the entire                                                              
gillnet fishery  if that cap is  exceeded.  The openings  are very                                                              
limited,  and  the  management  is  being  very  conservative,  he                                                              
continued.   Sacrifices are being  made on the lower  Copper River                                                              
and  it  begs  the  question  of   adequate  enforcement  upstream                                                              
because the  sport fishery is likely  to be shut down  as a result                                                              
of this,  too.  Therefore, he  said, the possibility  of enhancing                                                              
the Copper River  run opens up much more accessibility  to all the                                                              
people from Anchorage  and Fairbanks, and [the  bill] is something                                                              
he  would   not  like  to  see   shut  down.    A  trial   run  in                                                              
Representative  Talerico's district  is  a good  idea, he  stated,                                                              
and the bill has more positives than negatives.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:50:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BRIAN ASHTON testified  he is representing himself as  well as the                                                              
Tanana Chiefs  Conference (TCC).   Speaking on  behalf of  TCC, he                                                              
said TCC would like  to have this necessary tool  in its tool belt                                                              
for managing its  fisheries resources that have  been depleted for                                                              
a very  long time.  [TCC]  would like to  work with ADFG to  do it                                                              
appropriately, as  it has been done  for the past 15 years  and in                                                              
some  cases on  the Copper  River  for 40  years.   This has  been                                                              
done,  it has  worked, and  there have  never been  any crises  in                                                              
genetics,  he stated.   However,  there  is no  formal process  in                                                              
place, so  this bill would create  a clear process for  doing this                                                              
and ensuring it is done right.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON,  speaking on his  own behalf,  said he has  been doing                                                              
this  and  helping  communities  to  get  permits  from  ADFG  and                                                              
today's process is  not clear.  However, he continued,  the number                                                              
of eggs  is very tightly  managed and [ADFG]  looks at  the number                                                              
of fish  in the creek  and the number  of fish  to be taken.   The                                                              
process  goes  to  the sport  fish,  commercial  fish,  pathology,                                                              
genetics, and  the regional managers,  he advised.  They  all sign                                                              
off  on   the  last   sheet  and  the   final  signature   is  the                                                              
commissioner  approving  the  permits, so  ADFG  scrutinizes  this                                                              
very well.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON  explained that this is  about stocks that are  at risk                                                              
to such  a level that  the genetic integrity  is already  at risk.                                                              
When  the stock  gets so  low that  it is  basically brothers  and                                                              
sisters coming  back to spawn, there  is a problem.  In  regard to                                                              
the issue of genetics  and choosing how the fish  mate, he related                                                              
that  he has been  in meetings  in the  Lower 48  where more  fish                                                              
must be re-introduced.   In California, non-native coho  had to be                                                              
introduced in a  river system because there were so  few fish that                                                              
if  they had  mated there  would have  been a  genetic problem  of                                                              
brothers  and sisters.   He  recalled that  about 10  years ago  a                                                              
permit  in Nome  required the  taking of  80,000 eggs  to get  the                                                              
needed  genetic  diversity.   So,  he continued,  ADFG  completely                                                              
understands the genetic processes and they work.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON said  he has witnessed and has videos  of salmon coming                                                              
into  a creek and  starting  to spawn.   The big  alpha males  are                                                              
clearly saying  to the  others, "I'm spawning  and you're  not, so                                                              
stay  away,"  and  the  smaller  males will  hang  back  from  the                                                              
females that are  going to spawn.  He explained  that depending on                                                              
the  species, some  females  will  spawn three  to  five times  in                                                              
several different redds.   The big male stays beside  her and runs                                                              
the  smaller males  away, but  when  the spawning  starts the  big                                                              
male  cannot watch  everything and  when  he starts  to spawn  the                                                              
smaller male  will race in  under him and  spawn too.  As  the big                                                              
male  regains his  composure  it  is clear  he  is  furious as  he                                                              
chases  the smaller  males down  the creek.   It  is hilarious  to                                                              
watch, he said,  but it is also educational because  it is genetic                                                              
diversity  in action.    He stated  that  ADFG's  policy with  the                                                              
hatcheries - which  this is not - includes very  strict guidelines                                                              
to  catch both  large and  small males.   The  genetic policy  has                                                              
been developed  for many, many years,  he continued.   This policy                                                              
has  been  used  for  over [four]  decades  on  the  Copper  River                                                              
without any measurable  problems.  Environmental  groups have done                                                              
studies   looking  for  problems   and  haven't   found   any,  he                                                              
maintained.   The Copper  River red  salmon are  the first  to hit                                                              
the  market  and  are  incredibly  valuable.    If  there  were  a                                                              
problem, it would have been adjusted a long time ago.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:56:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH  asked how many  eggs are fertilized  in the                                                              
Copper River.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON  replied  that it  began in  1973 and  for the last  10                                                              
years it  has been  36 million eggs  per year.   The Copper  River                                                              
has  a  unique situation,  he  explained,  in  that when  the  big                                                              
earthquake happened  some of the  ground shifted and  didn't allow                                                              
the  fish to  migrate in  certain areas.   During  the 1960's  and                                                              
1970's it was  found that there  was a huge amount of  habitat for                                                              
the fish  but very little spawning  ground, he said.   Someone had                                                              
the bright  idea to  assist them in  that and it  has been  a huge                                                              
success  ever since.   He offered  to provide  the committee  with                                                              
the studies that  have been done and stated that  each hatchery is                                                              
scrutinized intensely,  and data is  kept.  Although this  bill is                                                              
not for a hatchery,  this would fall under that as  well, he said.                                                              
But  it doesn't  nearly come  to some  of the  challenges and  the                                                              
questions people have about conventional hatcheries.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:57:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH  inquired whether  fry from one  stream could                                                              
be moved into another  stream.  For example, putting  the fry from                                                              
a stream with extra large salmon into another stream.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ASHTON responded  that that  is  being done  today.   Certain                                                              
streams  in  the  Lower  48  have  nonindigenous  coho  that  were                                                              
introduced 80  years ago.  The  issue is convoluted, he  said, and                                                              
the answer  is yes, it  can be done,  but this bill  was carefully                                                              
written and  doesn't give  the leeway to  transplant.   He offered                                                              
his opinion that much more needs to be learned to go that far.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ASHTON  related  that  the  largest  king  salmon  on  record                                                              
weighed 126  pounds and  was caught  in a fish  trap in  1946 just                                                              
west of  Petersburg off  Prince of Wales  Island.  The  management                                                              
of the day,  he said, assumed it  was one of the  Columbia River's                                                              
last "June Hogs."   The Columbia River big kings  were called June                                                              
Hogs, he explained,  because they regularly reached  80 pounds and                                                              
consistently  went over 100  pounds.  A  scale sample  showed this                                                              
particular fish to  be a six-year-old ocean fish.   The Bonneville                                                              
Dam was  being built at  this time and did  not have a  fish pass,                                                              
he noted,  so the Columbia  River's stock  of mega-sized  fish was                                                              
knowingly killed off.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON  pointed out,  however, that in  his research  over the                                                              
years  he has  never  found  a picture  of  a  June Hog  that  was                                                              
shorter than  58 inches long,  and he has  seen about  25 pictures                                                              
of pre-1900  fish.   The [Columbia  River] fish  were bigger  than                                                              
the  record fish  caught in  the  Kenai River.   [The  Petersburg]                                                              
fish was  unique in that  it was 52  inches rather than  58 inches                                                              
and  it looked  like a  tuna fish,  he  said.   When fishermen  in                                                              
Wrangell are  asked what is the  only king salmon that  looks like                                                              
a tuna, they  will say from  the Bradfield River.   Their response                                                              
is immediate because  there is only one fish that  looks like that                                                              
in  southern Southeast  Alaska.   There  are no  pictures of  June                                                              
Hogs that have that  ratio, he continued, and it  is indicative of                                                              
the  Bradfield River  kings.   The Bradfield  River was  basically                                                              
[logged]  down to  the  watershed  in the  1960's  and 1970's  and                                                              
gravel was pulled out of the river to make the logging roads.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON noted  the Bradfield River was never  rehabilitated and                                                              
that  fishermen in  Wrangell  today still  talk  about what  would                                                              
have potentially  been the biggest king  salmon in the  world.  He                                                              
further  noted  that  retired  personnel   from  the  U.S.  Forest                                                              
Service and ADFG  have asked why these Bradfield fish  are off the                                                              
record and have  not been brought back.  Had this  been done there                                                              
would be  two rivers like the  Kenai bringing enormous  amounts of                                                              
income to  the state.   He said Alaska  does not currently  have a                                                              
clear consistent  process for restoring  a stock of fish  that has                                                              
been documented  to be  down for  the last 45  years that  has not                                                              
come  back.   This  bill, he  opined,  would give  a  tool to  vet                                                              
through the entire ADFG process, and then to bring a stock back.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:02:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PARISH drew attention  to page  1, lines  5-6, and                                                              
lines 10-11,  which state [in part],  "the department may  issue a                                                              
fisheries rehabilitation  permit that allows a qualified  person …                                                              
to enhance  habitat in water of  the state to aid the  survival of                                                              
the  fish."     He  surmised  this   is  the  provision   for  the                                                              
rehabilitation of stock.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ASHTON  responded that  the  ability  to restore  habitat  is                                                              
already in  place.  For  example, four  tribes on Prince  of Wales                                                              
Island are  asking him to work  with them because they  have spent                                                              
the  last ten  years restoring  rivers  that have  been wiped  out                                                              
from  logging.    The  tribes  know the  fish  are  not  going  to                                                              
rehabilitate  because  the  numbers   are  simply  too  depressed.                                                              
Another  example, he  related, is  Moose Creek  near Palmer  where                                                              
the U.S. Navy created  a chute for sending down coal  to where the                                                              
ships could  collect it.  Chickaloon  spent about $1  million over                                                              
three years  to rehabilitate the  watershed, he said, but  then it                                                              
was realized  that it could be  generations before a  fish strayed                                                              
into the stream.   The only time  a fish strays, he  explained, is                                                              
when its  [home] stream is  so crowded that  there is no  room for                                                              
it to  spawn there,  and so  it goes elsewhere.   Alaska's  stocks                                                              
are not robust enough  to cause straying and that  is why the fish                                                              
don't come back.   So, yes, he continued, there  are mechanisms to                                                              
do  rehabilitation, but  it wouldn't  necessarily  be a  superfund                                                              
site.   He  said he  plans  to talk  to  the Alaska  congressional                                                              
delegation about  getting help  because it is  going to be  a huge                                                              
project   to  restore   this  watershed   and   bring  back   that                                                              
genetically discreet stock that may or may not still be there.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:05:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   PARISH  surmised  that   the  bill   would  allow                                                              
restoration of  the habitat, but  would not allow  reestablishment                                                              
of the run if members of that stock could not be found.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ASHTON answered  correct.    This bill  is  not necessary  to                                                              
restore habitat  because that is  already in place.   Rather, this                                                              
bill primarily  is focused  to address a  habitat issue,  if there                                                              
is  one, because  the fish  must  have a  house  to live  in.   He                                                              
related  that when  communities  come to  him asking  for help  to                                                              
restore  a stock  that  has been  gone, he  will  ask whether  the                                                              
habitat needs to  be rehabilitated first, which was  the case with                                                              
the  Moose Creek  watershed.   Chickaloon  had  to  fix the  house                                                              
first and then reintroduce the fish.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:06:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR noted  that dam removal  in the  Lower 48  involves                                                              
the  same concern  as the  Moose River  project in  that it  could                                                              
take  many  decades to  just  let  the  wild  stock return.    She                                                              
offered  her  understanding that  a  specific  effort  is made  to                                                              
release hatchery  fish in places  other than where  the indigenous                                                              
stock would  be, but what  makes this different  is that  the fish                                                              
would be  released back  to the  same river.   She asked  which of                                                              
these  options are  being picked  in the Lower  48, and  requested                                                              
Mr. Ashton  to compare  and contrast  the two  and why  the bill's                                                              
provisions would work in this circumstance.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON replied  that there was a  big push in the  Lower 48 to                                                              
put in fish  culverts that would  pass fish after it  was realized                                                              
that  certain culverts  made waterfalls  at the  end that  blocked                                                              
fish from  passing.   After realizing  this error,  which  in some                                                              
cases was  decades later, flat-bottomed  culverts were used.   But                                                              
the policy of just  "building it and they will come"  did not work                                                              
because there were  no stocks big enough to stray,  he said.  When                                                              
the  indigenous species  is gone,  the question  for managers  and                                                              
stakeholders is  what to do.   Using genetics,  it might  be found                                                              
that five  miles away a  stock is found  in several places  in the                                                              
region,  and  so it  might  be prudent  to  use  that  stock.   If                                                              
everyone agrees, then that stock will be used.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON  recounted that he was  involved in the  development of                                                              
the Anita  Bay cost  recovery outside  of Wrangell,  where  it was                                                              
decided that  a terminal  harvest area  was needed for  commercial                                                              
fishing for  the hatchery.   The criteria  for approval,  he said,                                                              
is that  ADFG looks at  what the interaction  is going to  be with                                                              
any indigenous stocks  around the area.  The  data suggested there                                                              
were no significant  stocks in that area, so ADFG  was able to say                                                              
that  there  wouldn't be  a  problem  with interaction  with  wild                                                              
stocks and so the project could proceed.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:09:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  offered her  understanding that  the intent  of the                                                              
bill  is rehabilitation  of a  stock of  concern and  that is  why                                                              
eggs from  that stock would  be used and  [the fry]  released back                                                              
into that same area.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON responded  that the intent was to  take everything that                                                              
has  been  learned  so  far  about   genetics  and  write  a  very                                                              
conservative process  of what would be  done.  If a stock  of fish                                                              
is not  meeting escapement, that  stock would be taken  and helped                                                              
to survive,  and then would  be put back  right away with  no pens                                                              
and  no feeding.   So,  he continued,  it  is radically  different                                                              
than  the  methods and  processes  used  right  now by  the  mega-                                                              
hatcheries.  Although  certain people have lots  of concerns about                                                              
the hatchery operations  in existence today, this  is a completely                                                              
different process  and people shouldn't  be so quick to  throw the                                                              
hatcheries under the  bus.  He said he was around  when the stocks                                                              
crashed  in the  1970's and  that hatcheries  have stabilized  the                                                              
income  opportunities in  Alaska's commercial  fisheries and  have                                                              
helped  dramatically.   It is  key to  constantly look  at how  to                                                              
tweak that  and make it better.   He said he feels  confident that                                                              
enough  people  have  been  involved   in  looking  at  how  these                                                              
hatcheries are operated,  and course corrections are  made as more                                                              
is learned.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:11:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON  related that a  concern of one of  the critics                                                              
is that  if the hatchery occurs  and the taking  ultimately occurs                                                              
in the same  location as the  original wild stock, there  would be                                                              
no  way to  measure how  much of  the  wild stock  is being  taken                                                              
because they  would be  co-mingled.  He  asked whether  that makes                                                              
sense and is a concern to Mr. Ashton.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON agreed  it makes sense and explained  that written into                                                              
the bill is a  process that ensures there is a  very thorough pre-                                                              
plan that justifies  what will be done.  He said  he would provide                                                              
the committee  with the white  paper that  he gives to  people who                                                              
come to  him about  a stock of  concern and ask  what to  do about                                                              
it.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON stated  that half the people receiving  his white paper                                                              
fall  off  the  radar  when they  realize  that  this  is  serious                                                              
science  and  they  don't  have the  resources  or  capability  to                                                              
follow through  unless they can find  partners to help.   The need                                                              
must be defined,  he explained, to  ensure it is being  done right                                                              
and that  the genetics  are being spoken  to correctly  because it                                                              
is  discreet subpopulations  within  a bigger  watershed that  are                                                              
being talked  about.  For example,  the Yukon River is  over 1,000                                                              
miles long and genetics  show that there are a  lot of populations                                                              
of king, coho,  and chum all the  way up the river.   So, when one                                                              
watershed is  found to be at risk,  due diligence must  be done in                                                              
regard to  the numbers so  that the permit [application]  includes                                                              
the historical number  of fish going up the river  and the current                                                              
number, along  with a plan.   All these  different issues  must be                                                              
vetted, including  genetics, to  get a  permit approved,  he said.                                                              
If one comes  in saying that a  river system looks like  it should                                                              
have salmon  but doesn't and wants  to go plant some eggs,  he can                                                              
attest [it  won't happen]  once that person  sees his  white paper                                                              
and  he educates  them about  the  thorough level  of science  and                                                              
preparation  that must  be  done.   As well,  ADFG  will tell  the                                                              
person all the things that must be done.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:14:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOSEPHSON offered  his  understanding that  the bill  is                                                              
not for a conventional  hatchery but rather a new  model.  Because                                                              
these  salmon  are  not landlocked,  he  noted,  whatever  may  be                                                              
causing  a  problem  downstream  would  continue  to  exist.    He                                                              
inquired whether the  idea here is to grow the  number [of salmon]                                                              
to such an extent that it defeats the problem.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ASHTON  answered that  there  are  going to  be  interception                                                              
issues  that might  have caused  the problem  in the first  place.                                                              
However,  for whatever  reason  a stock  is  diminished, for  eggs                                                              
that have successfully  gone through the gamut  of juvenile stages                                                              
in the  ocean and  have made it  back, this  bill would  allow for                                                              
more of  those wild  eggs that came  back to  the river  to simply                                                              
survive.   It is  a multi-faceted  issue to  make sure  that False                                                              
Pass  interception  is  managed,  he said.    Maybe  international                                                              
fishing boats  are out  there, and  an international agreement  is                                                              
needed.   This would augment  the survival  of those that  made it                                                              
back, taking one  more risk out of it to help them  survive and it                                                              
would be done  conservatively until those bigger  issues are taken                                                              
care of.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ASHTON recalled  his  talks with  Wrangell  elders about  the                                                              
many  small  watersheds  located   in  Back  Channel  just  behind                                                              
Wrangell that no  longer have a measureable amount  of salmon.  He                                                              
said  he has  reviewed  the  earliest [historical]  documents  for                                                              
that area  involving the English  who came prior to  the Russians,                                                              
and  he found  a  federal report  from  1864  that documents  nine                                                              
tribal  houses along  Back Channel.   It  is accepted  to say,  he                                                              
continued, that these  tribal houses would not have  been there if                                                              
there wasn't  a resource.  Management  of the fisheries  was a big                                                              
deal.   Elders in Hoonah,  he related, have  told him of  how they                                                              
used to prepare  the creeks to ensure the fish could  make it back                                                              
to  the creeks.   If  they didn't  have the  fish numbers  needed,                                                              
they would  take the sperm from  the males and fertilize  the eggs                                                              
from  the females  and  put  them in  cedar  baskets  back in  the                                                              
creek.   So, they did  escapement management,  he said, and  it is                                                              
from this that he got this idea.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON pointed  out that a seiner could come  in, make a great                                                              
round  haul of  fish,  and thereby  unknowingly  wipe  out a  very                                                              
small subpopulation  of fish  in a  very small  river system.   No                                                              
one  would ever  know it  happened.   All those  long houses  were                                                              
documented  [in Back  Channel], he  stated, but  now there  are no                                                              
longer any  major fisheries there.   These fisheries are  gone and                                                              
have not come back.   In regard to genetics, he  said his point is                                                              
that  in order  for a  permit to  be issued  to take  fish from  a                                                              
certain local  area within  a river  system, the [applicant]  must                                                              
provide a  plan that shows an  understanding of where  the various                                                              
subpopulations are  located and how the plan will  ensure that all                                                              
those issues will be managed and addressed.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:17:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOSEPHSON said a  concern he  has heard  has to  do with                                                              
the qualifications  required for  this model  and that  anyone who                                                              
receives  a  permanent  fund dividend  (PFD)  could  theoretically                                                              
apply.  He requested Mr. Ashton's response to this concern.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON  offered  his opinion  that a person  who doesn't  know                                                              
what  he  or she  is  doing  wouldn't  fill  out  a permit  to  be                                                              
considered by  ADFG.  Also,  ADFG would not  issue a permit  to an                                                              
applicant   who  doesn't   know   what  he   or   she  is   doing.                                                              
Understanding  how to do  this is  very serious  when it  comes to                                                              
Alaska's  wild stocks  and  ensuring they  are  healthy, he  said.                                                              
The statement of  qualifications in the permit  [application] will                                                              
reflect  whether the  applicant  knows what  he or  she is  doing.                                                              
This is a  process that has been  ongoing for decades  and ADFG is                                                              
pretty good about  saying no to unqualified applicants  as well as                                                              
saying  no  if  it  is  unclear  to  the  department  whether  the                                                              
applicant is qualified.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:19:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  inquired about the point at  which the fry                                                              
need to be put in a stream for them to align with that stream.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON replied  he would email Representative  Johnson a paper                                                              
about  imprinting.   He explained  that some  of the stream  water                                                              
gets  into the  eggs when  the eggs  are fertilized.   He  further                                                              
explained  that when  the eggs  hatch  the alevin  still have  the                                                              
yolk sac attached,  and live in the gravel.  Once  the yolk sac is                                                              
used up  the emergent fry  come out of the  gravel.  All  three of                                                              
these  stages  have  processes  where the  fish  imprints  to  the                                                              
river, he  said, as  well as to  the specific  place in  the river                                                              
from which it came.   Each species is different about  that - some                                                              
species are  less specific about where  they spawn in a  river and                                                              
some,  like sockeye,  are very  specific about  where they  spawn.                                                              
The fish imprint to the minerals and other things in the water.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:21:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON recalled  a presentation  at a  conference                                                              
in which it  was stated that a  fish imprints on a  specific river                                                              
as well  as a  specific place  in the  ocean, so  the fish  from a                                                              
specific stream  will go  to a specific  coordinate in  the ocean.                                                              
At  what point  this imprinting  happens,  she said,  is what  she                                                              
doesn't  know.   She posited  that  if one  spot in  the ocean  is                                                              
getting fished  heavily,  perhaps certain  streams in Alaska  will                                                              
not  get a  return no  matter what  is  done.   She requested  Mr.                                                              
Ashton's thoughts in this regard.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. ASHTON replied  that ocean survival is a  very complex process                                                              
and new  technologies are  being used to  research where  the fish                                                              
are migrating.   He deferred to ADFG to provide more  details.  In                                                              
closing, Mr. Ashton  added that the need for  collecting more data                                                              
is  really  important  to understand  Alaska's  resources  in  the                                                              
river  systems, estuaries,  and in  the ocean.   Additionally,  he                                                              
said,  applied  science  curriculums  are  desperately  needed  in                                                              
Alaska's schools  and such curriculums  need to have  the students                                                              
actually  go in  the creeks  and be able  to touch  the fish,  not                                                              
just watch  fish on a video.   The bill would dovetail  into this,                                                              
he added.   It is not only about  the fish, but also  about how to                                                              
approach  the management  of  Alaska's  natural resources  so  the                                                              
resources aren't lost.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:25:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SARAH OBED,  vice president of  External Affairs,  Doyon, Limited,                                                              
testified  in  support  of  HB  107.   She  said  Doyon  has  been                                                              
supporting the  efforts of the  Tanana Chiefs Conference  for this                                                              
bill.   She noted  that Doyon  has provided  written testimony  in                                                              
support  of the bill  and understands  that the  bill would  allow                                                              
individuals,   corporations,    school   districts,    and   other                                                              
organizations  to  apply for  a  fish enhancement  permit  through                                                              
ADFG  that  would  allow  for  limited  collecting  of  fish,  the                                                              
fertilizing and hatching  of eggs, and placing the  fish back into                                                              
the  water from  which they  were  taken with  the expectation  of                                                              
boosting  the  fertility rate  of  the  eggs.   She  said  Doyon's                                                              
management and shareholders support the bill.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:27:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
[HB 107 was held over.]                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
                HB 197-COMMUNITY SEED LIBRARIES                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:27:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  announced that  the final  order of business  would                                                              
be HOUSE  BILL NO.  197, "An  Act relating  to the  duties of  the                                                              
commissioner of  natural resources;  relating to agriculture;  and                                                              
relating to community seed libraries."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:29:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOSEPHSON   moved  to   adopt  the  proposed   committee                                                              
substitute (CS)  for HB 197, Version 30-LS0493\O,  Wayne, 4/24/17,                                                              
as the working document.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR objected for discussion purposes.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:29:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TERRANOVA   TASKER,  Staff,   Representative  Jennifer   Johnston,                                                              
Alaska State  Legislature, on  behalf of Representative  Johnston,                                                              
sponsor,  explained that  Version O  amends section  4 to  address                                                              
some of the issues  brought up by the community and  at the bill's                                                              
last hearing.   She  said [on  page 3,  lines 17-19 add  language]                                                              
that would  allow for  personal noncommercial  transfer of  seeds.                                                              
This is  the issue  where someone's  grandmother could  give seeds                                                              
to her neighbors  and it would not be in violation  of any code or                                                              
regulation,  but that  would exist  outside of  the seed  library.                                                              
On [page  4, lines 7-9  add language] that  would allow  for seeds                                                              
from a  plant that is  grown outside Alaska  to be used in  a seed                                                              
library as long  as there is compliance with  interstate transport                                                              
of  commercial seeds.   On  page 4,  line 15,  would increase  the                                                              
volume  of seed  sharing to  one pound,  which is  in response  to                                                              
public comment that  the previous amount was not  enough for those                                                              
seeds that  are larger and heavier.   On page 4, lines  27-30, add                                                              
language that  would not  allow anyone to  use marijuana  seeds as                                                              
it pertains  to seed libraries because  that is not the  intent of                                                              
the bill.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:31:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON  referenced a  criticism by P.S.  Holloway, who                                                              
asked why the bill  is necessary when it is a  deregulated process                                                              
now.   Also,  he  continued,  the  current unregulated  system  is                                                              
free.  He inquired as to why the current system isn't working.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TASKER replied  that this  bill comes  about because  current                                                              
statute  says any  seed in  the state  must be  regulated.   Then,                                                              
going  to  code,  there are  two  pages  of  regulation  regarding                                                              
germination percentages,  weights, and  everything that  is needed                                                              
for commercial  operations.   It seems to  not be regulated  based                                                              
on  the interpretation  of the  [Department  of Natural  Resources                                                              
(DNR)],  she said,  so the  bill carves  out a  section that  seed                                                              
libraries  can exist  and then  they  can have  control over  what                                                              
goes  on.     She   deferred  to  Mr.   Rob  Carter   for  further                                                              
explanation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:33:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ROB  CARTER,   manager,  Plant   Materials  Center,   Division  of                                                              
Agriculture,  DNR, responded  that it is  an unfortunate  misnomer                                                              
from  individuals  who are  not  familiar  with the  current  seed                                                              
regulations in Title  11 of the Alaska Administrative  Code (AAC),                                                              
Chapter  34.  He  explained that  multiple sections  of this  code                                                              
say that any seed  transported around the state of  Alaska for use                                                              
in  planting,  no  matter  the quantity,  must  meet  the  state's                                                              
labeling  requirements   for  rigorous   germination   purity  and                                                              
invasive weed  testing.  These  requirements, he said,  defeat the                                                              
purpose of  noncommercial seed  sharing because these  individuals                                                              
have no intent to  sell or generate revenue; they  do it for rural                                                              
food  security  and  genetic  diversity.    It  is  regulated,  he                                                              
advised, but  is not enforced  by DNR upon  Alaskans who  are just                                                              
trying to provide  closer, better, fresher food,  and keep genetic                                                              
diversity among seeds within the state of Alaska.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:35:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON  offered his  understanding that Mr.  Carter is                                                              
saying that this  is more regulated than people  believe, pursuant                                                              
to Title  11 of the Alaska  Administrative Code.   Therefore, this                                                              
legislation springs out of that regulation in a sense.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. CARTER  answered correct;  people don't  understand that  both                                                              
the  Federal Seed  Act and  the  accessory code  regulate seed  in                                                              
Alaska.   But, he reiterated,  it is not  in the best  interest of                                                              
the  division  [to enforce]  because  there  are "bigger  fish  to                                                              
fry."   Seed laws  are passed  with good  intention, he  said, and                                                              
have been  around for  a long time.   It is  just in  recent years                                                              
that  other   states  have  been   applying  these  laws   to  the                                                              
noncommercial seed  sharing and seed  libraries that are  more fit                                                              
for consumer  protection and protection  of the farming  community                                                              
and  the agriculture  industry,  and applying  those laws  without                                                              
reason.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:36:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  asked   whether  there  is  a  difference                                                              
between "community seed library" and just "seed library."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. CARTER replied  that there is no difference and  that there is                                                              
a multitude of common  names.  People in the seed  regulatory side                                                              
in the  agricultural industry  look at  them as the  noncommercial                                                              
seed  sharing  activities  that  are  normally  located  within  a                                                              
library,   nonprofit,  community   organization,   or  a   private                                                              
organization that has space to allow one.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:38:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PARISH observed  that on page  3, lines  24-27 set                                                              
up a contrast  between plants grown  outside the state  and inside                                                              
the state  by saying,  "outside the state,  and imported  into the                                                              
state  in compliance  with  AS 03.05.010(a)(5);  or  [(2)] in  the                                                              
state, and  untreated with a  substance toxic to  humans, animals,                                                              
or  pollinating  insects."    He  inquired  whether  this  statute                                                              
allows plants  that are treated  with substances toxic  to humans,                                                              
animals, or pollinating insects.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CARTER offered  his belief  that it  does.   He advised  that                                                              
plants  and seeds are  very different  critters  when it comes  to                                                              
the  regulatory  process.    Speaking  only  to  seeds,  any  seed                                                              
currently that  is being  made available for  sale or  offered for                                                              
sale  must  have  that  specifically   on  its  label  within  the                                                              
package.  In this  case, it is not allowing that  within community                                                              
seed libraries.   He offered  his professional opinion  that these                                                              
labeling  requirements be  met, and  that there  be due  diligence                                                              
because  individuals in  a free,  noncommercial  seed library  may                                                              
have  children there  and sometimes  the seed  coatings that  have                                                              
been treated  with a pesticide  are in  bright colors.   To remove                                                              
the possibility  that an  individual might get  sick or  very sick                                                              
and die  from ingestion  of those,  he advised that  it is  in the                                                              
best  interest  of noncommercial  use  to  not allow  that  within                                                              
noncommercial seed libraries.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:40:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH  agreed that  a seed library  shouldn't have                                                              
any seeds that have  been treated with toxic substances.   He said                                                              
he  is  having  trouble  seeing   why  seeds  treated  with  toxic                                                              
substances should  be allowed in community seed  libraries if they                                                              
are  coming  from out  of  state.    He requested  Mr.  Carter  to                                                              
provide clarity in this regard.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CARTER suggested  Representative  Parish talk  with the  bill                                                              
sponsor if  he believes the language  on page 3, lines  24-27, has                                                              
a loophole  for out-of-state  seed to be  treated and  shared with                                                              
community  seed  libraries.    Mr.   Carter  said  he  thinks  the                                                              
language could be interpreted either way.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:42:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR surmised  it would  be  difficult if  a plant  were                                                              
being brought into  the state to be able to certify  what happened                                                              
prior to it coming to Alaska.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CARTER agreed  it would  be  very difficult  to regulate  all                                                              
imported  plants and  said the  Division of  Agriculture does  not                                                              
currently do that.   He advised that many of the  chemicals in the                                                              
systemic  pesticides  used to  treat  plants  do not  carry  forth                                                              
within  the progeny  of the seed  and he  therefore doesn't  think                                                              
that is a necessary step within this legislation.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:42:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH  said that if the provision  that seeds from                                                              
outside  the state  should be  similarly untreated  it would  seem                                                              
that a  nationwide  standard, such  as organic,  could be  used to                                                              
avoid having to regulate every other state.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR advised there  are imported  vegetable starts  that                                                              
are organic, but  said it would be very difficult  to do this with                                                              
flowers  or other showy  plants  because she  cannot think  of any                                                              
opportunity  to  purchase  certified  organic  garden  landscaping                                                              
plants.  She requested Mr. Carter's comment in this regard.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. CARTER  agreed with Co-Chair Tarr.   He advised that  the U.S.                                                              
Department  of  Agriculture  (USDA)  organic standard  is  a  USDA                                                              
program  and  therefore  putting  that  type  of  language  within                                                              
legislation could  be very limiting.   He said he thinks  it is up                                                              
to  the  individual seed  person  to  do  their due  diligence  to                                                              
provide the  seed that is  best for the  community.   He cautioned                                                              
that the organic label is something to be very "wise" about.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:44:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR removed  her objection to adopting Version  O as the                                                              
working document.   There  being no  further objection,  Version O                                                              
was before the committee.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:45:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR reopened public testimony.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:45:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DEIRDRE HELFFREICH  testified that there  is a need for  this bill                                                              
simply  to establish  the legality  of  community seed  libraries.                                                              
There is  a difference  between a  seed library  and a  seed bank,                                                              
she pointed  out.  The  seed vault in  Norway holds  germplasm for                                                              
particular individuals  or companies.  They are  required to share                                                              
the first  generation with  other researchers,  but otherwise  the                                                              
seeds  are held  in deep freeze  like  would be done  in a  living                                                              
museum.   A  seed library  is trying  to  establish living  plants                                                              
that   have  adapted   to  a   certain  area,   and  to   increase                                                              
biodiversity, educate the community, and help fellow gardeners.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. HELFFREICH stated  she has some concerns with Version  O.  She                                                              
drew attention  to the provision  in [subsection] (c)  that begins                                                              
on page 3, line  30, and which states, "Seed  given, exchanged, or                                                              
offered for giving  or exchange under (b) of this  section must be                                                              
packaged  for sale and  labeled with  ...."   She said  the [five]                                                              
labeling requirements  that follow [on  page 4, lines  1-6,] would                                                              
put an  undue burden  on seed  libraries and  would result  in yet                                                              
another  volunteer event  that a  seed library  would have  to do.                                                              
She  noted she  is speaking  for  herself, but  that  she was  the                                                              
founder of the seed  library in Ester.  She also  pointed out that                                                              
the provision  refers  to sellers  and packaging  for sale  and is                                                              
contradicted  by  [paragraph] (5)  on  page  4, lines  5-6,  which                                                              
state, "the statement  'Not authorized for commercial  use and not                                                              
classified, graded,  or inspected by  the State of Alaska.'"   She                                                              
said  there is  an inherent  contradiction  and that  part of  the                                                              
provision  looks like it  is created  for sellers  and part  of it                                                              
looks  like  it  is  created  for  individuals  and  organizations                                                              
giving seeds.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  HELFFREICH  further  pointed out  that  making  organizations                                                              
responsible for keeping  track of how much a person  receives in a                                                              
year,  or just receives,  is problematic.   She  also stated  that                                                              
the  labeling  requirement  on page  4,  line  2, to  include  the                                                              
seller's  name   and  address,   would  result  in   fewer  people                                                              
participating in these organizations.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. HELFFREICH  said she has  14 years of professional  experience                                                              
working  as  the  science  editor  at  the  University  of  Alaska                                                              
Fairbanks  (UAF)  School  of Natural  Resources  and  Agricultural                                                              
Sciences.   She  noted  she has  submitted  written testimony  and                                                              
reiterated her appreciation for the bill.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:51:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  advised that the  committee intends to  consider an                                                              
amendment  that would  address in  part  Ms. Helffreich's  concern                                                              
about the  seller's name and address.   Regarding the  tracking of                                                              
weight, she noted  that Version O raises the weight  to one pound.                                                              
She asked whether  this would address Ms. Helffreich's  concern or                                                              
whether her concern  is that tracking the cumulative  amount would                                                              
be challenging.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. HELFFREICH replied  that her concern is the idea  of having to                                                              
track [the weight].                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:51:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JAN FLORA testified  she appreciates HB 197 and  Version O because                                                              
it  would help  with  Alaska's  food  security concern  and  would                                                              
build  community resilience.   She  said that  until she read  the                                                              
bill  she had  no idea  that seed  savers and  seed swappers  were                                                              
outlawed.   She noted Homer  has over 200  high tunnels,  the most                                                              
in any zip code  in the entire U.S.  Small  agriculture is booming                                                              
in  Homer, she  continued, and  people in  Homer want  to build  a                                                              
seed library,  so the  bill would  help with  this and  would help                                                              
the Homer community grow more food for its families.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:53:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH  referred to the concern that  the packaging                                                              
requirements would  be a burden  to seed libraries.   He requested                                                              
Ms. Flora's thoughts in this regard.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. FLORA responded  that she concurs with the  witness expressing                                                              
this  concern.   She said she  doesn't  want to put  her name  and                                                              
address on the seeds.   The seeds are swapped with  friends and it                                                              
is known  where they  go.  She  suggested that  for purposes  of a                                                              
community  seed library,  perhaps a  binder could  be kept,  and a                                                              
code put on the  packages for tracking where the  seeds come from,                                                              
so  there is  some capability  of tracing  seeds.   She noted  the                                                              
bill  states that  DNR  should publish  where  the seed  libraries                                                              
are; however,  she continued,  DNR already  publishes a  directory                                                              
for Alaska  Grown that  lists all  the farmers  and stock  growers                                                              
that  voluntarily want  to be  in  the directory.   She  suggested                                                              
that  this  directory  would  be  a good  place  to  publish  seed                                                              
library information.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:55:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR closed public testimony.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:55:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR moved  to adopt Amendment 1,  labeled 30-LS0493\O.1,                                                              
Shutts, 4/26/17, which read:                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 31:                                                                                                           
          Delete "for sale"                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 2:                                                                                                            
          Delete "seller's name and address"                                                                                    
          Insert "name and address of the person giving or                                                                      
     offering the seed"                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, line 3:                                                                                                            
          Delete "for sale"                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, lines 7 - 9:                                                                                                       
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, lines 12 - 14:                                                                                                     
          Delete "(1) that is harvested from a plant grown                                                                      
      outside the state unless the seed is in the original                                                                      
     packaging in which it was imported into the state;                                                                         
               (2)"                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, lines 22 - 23:                                                                                                     
          Delete "AS 03.20.110 - 03.20.160"                                                                                     
          Insert "AS 03.20.110 - 03.20.150"                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 5, lines 3 - 4:                                                                                                       
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:55:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON objected for discussion purposes.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:55:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR explained  that Amendment 1 would,  in part, address                                                              
the  issue  of  information  that  is  required.    She  said  the                                                              
amendment  would remove  some  of the  confusion  about "the  sale                                                              
element of  it" by deleting the  words "for sale" on page  3, line                                                              
31.   Thus,  line 31  would read,  "section must  be packaged  and                                                              
labeled  with".     She  said  Amendment  1  would   also  do  the                                                              
following:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
   · delete from page 4, line 2, the words "seller's name and                                                                   
     address" and insert "name and address of the person giving                                                                 
     or offering the seed"                                                                                                      
   · delete from page 4, line 3, the words "for sale"                                                                           
   · delete all the language [of subsection (d)] on page 4,                                                                     
     lines 7-9, to get at some of the issue about where seed was                                                                
     grown                                                                                                                      
   · delete all the language on page 4, lines 12-14                                                                             
   · change the statutory reference on page 4, lines 22-23                                                                      
   · delete all the language on page 5, lines 3-4                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:57:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOSEPHSON  asked why the  definition of  "exchange" would                                                              
not be needed.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TASKER answered  that because  the bill's  language has  been                                                              
cleaned  up with the  removal of  buy or  sell, Legislative  Legal                                                              
Services  has  advised  that  "exchange"   does  not  need  to  be                                                              
defined.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  stated that a  conceptual amendment to  Amendment 1                                                              
could be considered  regarding the name and address  of the person                                                              
giving  or  offering  the  seed.     She  requested  Mr.  Carter's                                                              
thoughts  about  the suggestion  that  this information  could  be                                                              
held in  a binder, so  it would be  available, but  not physically                                                              
on the package,  in order to address the concerns  of those people                                                              
not  wanting  to  give out  their  personal  information  [on  the                                                              
package].                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CARTER answered  he  thinks removal  of  that language  would                                                              
simplify that  process.  He offered  his belief that, from  a seed                                                              
regulatory  aspect, as long  as there  was a  sign above  the seed                                                              
library  itself with  the name  and  address of  the seed  library                                                              
above the seed  sharing activities within that  facility, it would                                                              
meet the requirements of this legislation.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:59:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PARISH,  in  response   to  Mr.  Carter's  answer,                                                              
offered  his understanding  that  from the  point of  view of  the                                                              
department it  would be  sufficient to have  the name  and address                                                              
of  the seed  library rather  than  the provider  of the  original                                                              
seed.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. CARTER replied that is correct.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR  clarified  that  the name  and  address  would  be                                                              
specific  to the  seed  library, not  specific  to the  individual                                                              
person.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:00:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER  asked who  is responsible if  the address                                                              
of the seller is on the packet.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  responded the  name and address  could be  the seed                                                              
library  and location,  rather than  the  name of  the person  who                                                              
donated the seeds to that library.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAUSCHER asked  who would  be responsible  and who                                                              
would  be contacted  in case  of problems  if it  is the name  and                                                              
address of the seed library, not the [seed] producer.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. TASKER replied  that the purpose of creating  a community seed                                                              
library is  that it gives  the department a  place to go  if there                                                              
is a problem,  and allows some path  for tracking if need  be.  In                                                              
the  smaller communities,  regardless  of  whether someone's  name                                                              
and  address  were  written  down,  the  community  members  would                                                              
likely  know who  is  giving  what seeds.    She deferred  to  Mr.                                                              
Carter to answer the question further.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. CARTER  responded that who is  liable is a  difficult question                                                              
and he  is not sure  what [a seed  library's] liability  would be.                                                              
If the  issue was an  invasive weed, or  marijuana seed  was being                                                              
exchanged,   or   another   item  that   this   legislation   made                                                              
inapplicable   [to   current   regulation],   it  would   be   the                                                              
responsibility of the seed library to stop that activity.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:02:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WESTLAKE  stated  the intent  of  the  bill is  to                                                              
allow people to exchange seeds.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  thanked the  bill  sponsor  for her  hard                                                              
work  and response  to people's  opinions by  rewriting the  bill.                                                              
She  said that  while  the state  must do  due  diligence when  it                                                              
comes  to invasive  species and  so  on, people  will continue  to                                                              
share seeds.  She expressed her support for the bill.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:04:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND  moved to adopt Conceptual  Amendment 1 to                                                              
Amendment 1, to change line 6 to read as follows:                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
      Insert "name of seed library giving or offering the                                                                       
     seed"                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR   objected  for   discussion  purposes.     Drawing                                                              
attention  to page 3,  line 20,  Version O,  she pointed  out that                                                              
Section  03.20.120 is  the community  seed library  section.   So,                                                              
she  said, while  it  says  the name  and  address  of the  person                                                              
giving  or  offering  the  seed,   it  is  supposed  to  mean  the                                                              
community seed library because it is in that section.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:05:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   DRUMMOND   addressed  her   proposed   conceptual                                                              
amendment to Amendment  1.  She noted that the  objection heard in                                                              
testimony  was that  people didn't  want the  name and address  of                                                              
the giver of the  seed.  The suggestion heard  in conversation was                                                              
replace the  giver's name and  address with  the name of  the seed                                                              
library that was the source of the seed.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  explained that  the way  the language is  currently                                                              
written,  it actually  is the community  seed  library.  She  said                                                              
Conceptual  Amendment 1  to Amendment  1 could  be considered  for                                                              
points  of  clarity, but  asked  whether  Representative  Drummond                                                              
would like to remove the word "address".                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND  asked whether  the seed library  is being                                                              
referred to as the person.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR answered yes.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   DRUMMOND   further   addressed   her   conceptual                                                              
amendment to  Amendment 1.  She  said it should only say  the name                                                              
of  the seed  library.   If the  community being  talked about  is                                                              
Ester, for  example, Mr. Carter will  know it is the  seed library                                                              
in Ester.   Also,  as stated in  testimony, it  would take  half a                                                              
page  in  the  [Alaska  Grown directory]  to  list  all  the  seed                                                              
libraries.   She stated she is  trying to address the  concerns of                                                              
the testifiers  and the concern she  heard loud and clear  is that                                                              
they  do not  want their  names  and addresses  distributed.   The                                                              
seed library  should be tracking these  things and if there  is an                                                              
issue with the seed  and there is a need to find  out from whom it                                                              
came, the seed library can be responsible for tracking that.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:07:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JENNIFER   JOHNSTON,  Alaska   State  Legislature,                                                              
sponsor, offered her  opinion that the language should  be left as                                                              
is because  there are opportunities  for individuals to act  in an                                                              
exchange where it  might still be wanted to have  the individual's                                                              
name and address there versus just the seed library.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH  spoke in support of Conceptual  Amendment 1                                                              
to Amendment 1.   It would be adequate, he continued,  to say that                                                              
a community  seed  library should  make reasonable  accommodations                                                              
for  participants  to  know  X,  Y, and  Z,  to  avoid  having  to                                                              
individually label each package.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR  restated Conceptual Amendment  1 to Amendment  1 as                                                              
follows:   On line 6, after  "name" insert "of the  community seed                                                              
library" and  delete "and address  of the  person".  Thus,  line 6                                                              
would  read,  "name  of  the  community  seed  library  giving  or                                                              
offering the seed."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND confirmed the restatement as correct.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:09:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  TARR  removed  her  objection.   There  being  no  other                                                              
objection, Conceptual Amendment 1 to Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:09:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PARISH  noted that Amendment 1 removes  a couple of                                                              
restrictions on  seeds that originate  out of state, one  of those                                                              
being  that  the seeds  should  be  in their  original  packaging.                                                              
Removal   of  these  restrictions,   he   said,  makes  him   less                                                              
comfortable with  the bill, particularly  for setting a  number of                                                              
other requirements  on it, in which  the origin of the  seed could                                                              
be lost.   He reiterated his earlier  concern that if  it is going                                                              
to be made unclear  which seeds are coming from  instate and which                                                              
seeds are not, it  only makes it more important that  they be held                                                              
to the same standards  with regard to toxins.   With the amendment                                                              
as  offered, he  posited, there  is  no reason  why seeds  treated                                                              
with  neonicotinoids, for  example, couldn't  be passed  off  in a                                                              
community seed library.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. TASKER  said she and  Mr. Carter talked  about the  removal of                                                              
that  specific  language,  "the   original  packaging",  and  this                                                              
language  would  make this  process  more complicated  for  people                                                              
trying  to share  seeds.   She offered  her  understanding that  a                                                              
seed going  out of any  state must still  comply with  the Federal                                                              
Seed Act and  there still are safeguards to prevent  harmful seeds                                                              
from going  one place  to another  without any  control.   So, she                                                              
continued, [Amendment  1] would not remove any  safeguards, rather                                                              
it is an access issue.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:12:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR TARR rescinded her motion to move Amendment 1.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
[HB 197 was held over.]                                                                                                         
3:13:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being  no further business  before the committee,  the House                                                              
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:13 p.m.                                                                 

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB 107 Amendment 1 on 4.21.17.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Opposing Document - Letter in Opposition 4.25.17_Redacted.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Opposing Document - Letter in Opposition Rinella 4.25.17.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Opposing Document - Letter in Opposition Adkison 4.25.17.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Gary Martinek's comments about KRSA opposing comments 4-25-17.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB 107 Amendment 2 on 4.25.17.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Opposing Document - Trout Unlimited Letter 4.25.17.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Additional Documentation. Considerations for Salmon Restoration Planning.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Additional Documents, Josephson Permitting process letter.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Additional Documentation. Egg Survival Rate Comparrison.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Fiscal Note DFG-DCF-02-24-17.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Gulkana Incubation Picture.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Moist air incubator picture.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Sponsor Statement 2.8.17.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Support ADN Article.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Support Copper Valley Chamber of Commerce.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Support Doyon 2.14.17.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Support Mentasta Council.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Support Nenana City School District 2.16.17.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Support Pete Velsko.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Ver O.PDF HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Sectional Analysis 2.8.2017.pdf HFSH 2/28/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB107 Explanation of Changes O to U.pdf HFSH 4/18/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 ver U.pdf HFSH 4/18/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Supporting Document SEAFA 4.6.17.pdf HFSH 4/18/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB 107 Sponsor Statement 2.8.17.pdf HRES 4/19/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB107 Opposing Document Friccero.pdf HFSH 4/18/2017 10:00:00 AM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107
HB 197 Sponsor Statement.pdf HRES 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/12/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/17/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/19/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/28/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 5/1/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 197
HB197 Version J 4.5.2017.pdf HRES 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/12/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/17/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/19/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/28/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 5/1/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 197
HB197 Sectional Analysis ver J 4.6.2017.pdf HRES 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/12/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/17/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/19/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/28/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 5/1/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 197
HB197 Fiscal Note - DNR-PMC 4.7.17.pdf HRES 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/12/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/17/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/19/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/28/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 5/1/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 197
HB197 Supporting Document - Article. Seed Bill 4.9.17.pdf HRES 4/10/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/12/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/17/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/19/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/28/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 5/1/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 197
HB197. Version O.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/28/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 5/1/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 197
Explanation of Changes. HB197. Version O.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 4/28/2017 1:00:00 PM
HRES 5/1/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 197
HB107 Opposition Documents - Letters of Opposition 4.26.17.pdf HRES 4/26/2017 1:00:00 PM
HB 107