Legislature(2003 - 2004)

02/20/2004 01:10 PM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                       February 20, 2004                                                                                        
                           1:10 p.m.                                                                                            
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
Representative Nancy Dahlstrom, Co-Chair                                                                                        
Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair                                                                                          
Representative Carl Gatto                                                                                                       
Representative Bob Lynn                                                                                                         
Representative Nick Stepovich                                                                                                   
Representative Kelly Wolf                                                                                                       
Representative Beth Kerttula                                                                                                    
Representative David Guttenberg                                                                                                 
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
Representative Cheryll Heinze, Vice Chair                                                                                       
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                                                                     
Representative Hugh Fate                                                                                                        
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
HOUSE BILL NO. 442                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the Big Game Commercial Services Board and                                                                  
to the regulation of big game hunting services and                                                                              
transportation services; and providing for an effective date."                                                                  
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
HOUSE BILL NO. 345                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to fees for state park developed campsites; and                                                                
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
BILL: HB 442                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: BIG GAME GUIDE BOARD & SERVICES                                                                                    
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF LEG BUDGET & AUDIT                                                                              
02/09/04       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/09/04       (H)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
02/20/04       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                             
BILL: HB 345                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: CAMPSITE FEES: DISABLED VETERANS/SENIORS                                                                           
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) FATE                                                                                              
01/12/04       (H)       PREFILE RELEASED (1/2/04)                                                                              
01/12/04       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
01/12/04       (H)       RES, FIN                                                                                               
02/04/04       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                             
02/04/04       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/04/04       (H)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
02/20/04       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                             
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH SAMUELS                                                                                                    
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Sponsor of HB 442, introduced the bill and                                                                 
answered questions from the committee.                                                                                          
RON SOMERVILLE, Vice Chair                                                                                                      
Board of Game                                                                                                                   
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 442, and                                                                        
answered questions from the members.                                                                                            
MATT ROBUS, Director                                                                                                            
Division of Wildlife Conservation                                                                                               
Department of Fish and Game                                                                                                     
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 442, and answered questions                                                                
from the members.                                                                                                               
JOE KLUTSCH, Member                                                                                                             
Alaska Professional Hunters Association                                                                                         
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 442 and answered questions                                                                 
from the members.                                                                                                               
PAUL JOHNSON                                                                                                                    
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB442 and answered questions                                                                  
from the members.                                                                                                               
RICK URION, Director                                                                                                            
Division of Occupational Licensing                                                                                              
Department of Community and Economic Development                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  support of HB 442 and answered                                                               
questions from the members.                                                                                                     
ROBERT HARDY, registered big game guide                                                                                         
Wasilla, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:   Testified on HB 442  and answered questions                                                               
from the members.                                                                                                               
JIM POUND, Staff                                                                                                                
to Representative Hugh Fate                                                                                                     
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on  behalf of Representative Fate,                                                               
sponsor of HB 345.                                                                                                              
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
TAPE 04-06, SIDE A                                                                                                            
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR  BEVERLY  MASEK  called  the  House  Resources  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting to  order at 1:10 p.m.   Representatives Masek,                                                               
Dahlstrom, Lynn,  Stepovich, Wolf, Guttenberg, and  Kerttula were                                                               
present at  the call to  order.  Representative Gatto  arrived as                                                               
the meeting was in progress.                                                                                                    
HB 442-BIG GAME GUIDE BOARD & SERVICES                                                                                        
Number 0075                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced  that the first order  of business would                                                               
be  HOUSE  BILL  NO.  442,  "An Act  relating  to  the  Big  Game                                                               
Commercial  Services Board  and  to the  regulation  of big  game                                                               
hunting services  and transportation services; and  providing for                                                               
an effective date."                                                                                                             
Number 0125                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH  SAMUELS, Alaska State  Legislature, sponsor                                                               
of HB  442, introduced the  bill and answered questions  from the                                                               
committee.   He told the  members that he represents  district 29                                                               
and  is  the  chairman  of   the  Legislative  Budget  and  Audit                                                               
Committee, which is the reason he  brings HB 442 to the committee                                                               
today.   Representative Samuels  explained that  this bill  is in                                                               
response to  an audit that  came out  in [December of  2003] that                                                               
looked  at  the   problems  that  resulted  from   the  Big  Game                                                               
Commercial  Services Board's  discontinuation.   Guides had  been                                                               
licensed  in Alaska  since territorial  days and  regulated by  a                                                               
board from 1973  until 1995, when it was sunsetted.   A number of                                                               
issues  and  concerns  have  since  gone  unaddressed  which  are                                                               
identified  and  explored within  the  audit  [Audit Digest  #08-                                                               
30025-03] which was done by the legislative auditor.                                                                            
Number 0196                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS   told  the   members  that   the  issues                                                               
identified in audit are as follows:                                                                                             
     1.   The  lack   of  ability   of  the   Department  of                                                                    
     Community and Economic  Development (DCED), Division of                                                                    
     Occupational Licensing, to  coordinate with other state                                                                    
     and federal agencies.                                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  commented that  he does not  believe this                                                               
problem is anything  but a lack of time necessary  to address all                                                               
the  concerns of  the new  duties which  DCED inherited  in 1995.                                                               
The  state agencies  that the  department must  deal with  on the                                                               
hunting industry are Alaska Department  of Fish and Game (ADF&G),                                                               
Department  of   Public  Safety  (DPS),  Department   of  Natural                                                               
Resources (DNR), Department  of Environmental Conservation (DEC),                                                               
Department of Community and Economic  Development (DCED).  On the                                                               
federal level  the department must  work with the Bureau  of Land                                                               
Management  (BLM), the  U.S. Forest  Service, U.S.  Department of                                                               
Fish and  Wildlife Service, the  National Park Service,  the U.S.                                                               
Coast  Guard,  the  Federal Aviation  Administration  (FAA),  and                                                               
possibly even the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).                                                                      
Number 0267                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS   said  that   another  issue   that  was                                                               
identified was:                                                                                                                 
     2.   Lessening of ethical standards.                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS  commented  that  there  are  no  ethical                                                               
standards set in statutes.  The other issues identified were:                                                                   
     3.   Lack of detailed operating standards.                                                                                 
     4.   Weaker focus on hunter safety.                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS told  the members he believes  some of the                                                               
guides will testify that their  clients are very savvy, worldwide                                                               
hunters and  some are not.   To have  the standards set  for both                                                               
the  training of  the guides  and  the assistant  guides who  are                                                               
often  alone with  the hunters  in  the field,  is important,  he                                                               
Number 0317                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS continued to  list items identified in the                                                               
audit as follows:                                                                                                               
        5.   Diminished disciplinary climate for unsafe,                                                                        
     unethical, or even illegal conduct.                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS  explained  that there  are  no  business                                                               
ethics standards to determine how  guides or transporters conduct                                                               
business.   It leaves little  direction to the department  on how                                                               
to  address consumer  complaints.   If a  complaint comes  in the                                                               
department would have to contact  one of the agencies or possibly                                                               
the guide  service.   He reiterated that  there are  no standards                                                               
for guiding  companies.   The consumer  protection angle  of this                                                               
bill says  that when the board  is appointed, those on  the board                                                               
would  understand  the  industry   and  know  what  the  inherent                                                               
standards should be, what the  statutory standards should be, and                                                               
address  the  concerns of  the  department.   Under  the  current                                                               
system there  are no  sanctions for  consumer complaints  or game                                                               
violations.   The fines for  infractions have  been significantly                                                               
reduced,   and  qualification   exams  are   required  only   for                                                               
registered guides, not the assistant guides.                                                                                    
Number 0440                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS  told  the   members  that  it  has  been                                                               
suggested that these issues could  be addressed by the department                                                               
with  a  board;  however,  after meeting  with  numerous  players                                                               
involved, it  seems if  the department  could solve  the problems                                                               
alone without the expertise in-house, it  would have done so.  It                                                               
has  been almost  10 years  since [the  board's sunset],  and the                                                               
audit  has  determined  that  the   problems  have  continued  to                                                               
accumulate.   He said that  the reestablishment of a  board would                                                               
provide an accessible public forum  to address problems that face                                                               
the  hunting  industry, its  interaction  with  hunters, and  the                                                               
various private  and public land  managers.  The board  could use                                                               
its expertise  and wisdom  to oversee the  big game  industry and                                                               
provide   a    proactive   response   as    situations   develop,                                                               
Representative Samuels added.                                                                                                   
Number 0488                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE   SAMUELS   commented   that   he   believes   new                                                               
opportunities could  be identified and realized  by this process.                                                               
He said  he strongly feels that  Alaska is a world  class hunting                                                               
destination.  People  save their entire lives to come  here for a                                                               
hunting  experience that  a lot  of us  simply take  for granted.                                                               
Representative  Samuels  stated   that  Alaska's  reputation  and                                                               
resources should be protected, so that reputation is not lost.                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS summarized that  HB 442 does three things.                                                               
It moves the  responsibilities from the department  to the board.                                                               
Most of the 23 pages in  the bill involve changing the statute to                                                               
move  the  responsibility  from  the  department  to  the  board,                                                               
changes  the  term  "guide"  to  "guide  outfitter",  and  raises                                                               
potential fines for various violations  from $1,000 to $5,000, he                                                               
Number 0620                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked when the board sunset took effect.                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied in 1995.                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  asked what  was  the  rationale behind  the                                                               
failure to renew the board's existence.                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS  directed   Representative  Lynn  to  the                                                               
audit.  He  suggested that the legislative  auditor could address                                                               
the question in detail.                                                                                                         
Number 0670                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  STEPOVICH surmised  that the  bill would  provide                                                               
for increased fines  and reestablishment of the board.   He asked                                                               
if the board would implement the  fines and be the point of final                                                               
review of those fines.                                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  responded that the board  would implement                                                               
an appeals  process if  they do issue  a fine to  a guide.   This                                                               
bill allows more latitude to the  board, as a $1,000 fine in some                                                               
cases is  not a deterrent, he  explained.  The board  will not be                                                               
establishing  a specific  fine  for a  specific  violation.   The                                                               
board would,  however, have more  latitude to issue  higher fines                                                               
if warranted, he emphasized.                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked who currently issues the fines.                                                                  
Number 0760                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS  replied  that  he  believes  it  is  the                                                               
Division of Occupational Licensing.                                                                                             
REPRESENTATIVE  STEPOVICH asked  for clarification  that part  of                                                               
the problem may have existed because  there was no board in place                                                               
to  issue the  fines.   Representative  Stepovich questioned  the                                                               
need for higher fines.                                                                                                          
CO-CHAIR  MASEK  commented  that   Matt  Robus  from  the  Alaska                                                               
Department of Fish and Game  is available to answer questions and                                                               
may be able to respond to that point.                                                                                           
Number 0831                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  referred to the change  in definitions                                                               
of guide  to guide outfitter.   He asked if guide  outfitter is a                                                               
new category or simply the combination of outfit and guide.                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS replied  that the  intent was  to include                                                               
both categories.   He  explained that  sometimes guides  are also                                                               
outfitters,  and sometimes  outfitters  are not  guides, but  are                                                               
separate.  The  thought in making this change is  to include both                                                               
categories and a combination if they combine, he summarized.                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG  restated  that   it  is  not  another                                                               
category.  It is both groups combined.                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE   SAMUELS  clarified   that   there  are   guides,                                                               
outfitters, and guide/outfitters.                                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE   GUTTENBERG  commented   that  this   is  another                                                               
separate category.                                                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied no.   He explained that he did not                                                               
want to  see someone come forward  and say that he/she  was not a                                                               
guide, but a guide/outfitter.                                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  summarized that  change was done  as a                                                               
means of clarification.                                                                                                         
Number 1008                                                                                                                     
RON SOMERVILLE, Vice  Chair, Board of Game,  testified in support                                                               
of HB 442, and answered questions  from the members.  He referred                                                               
to a  letter in  the members'  packet [dated  March 18,  2003] in                                                               
which  the Board  of  Game requested  that  the members  consider                                                               
reestablishment of a Big Game Commercial Services Board.                                                                        
MR.  SOMERVILLE  told  the  members that  he  checked  with  Mike                                                               
Fleagle from  McGrath, who is Chairman  of the Board of  Game, to                                                               
clarify  his personal  assessment  as to  where  he believes  the                                                               
board is  going in asking  that the Big Game  Commercial Services                                                               
Board  be reconsidered.   The  primary interest  of the  Board of                                                               
Game is  fostered by a couple  of points, he said.   The guiding,                                                               
outfitting,  and air  taxi industries  in  Alaska are  legitimate                                                               
industries  for a  variety of  reasons.   He commented  that they                                                               
provide a  lot of services and  have spread some of  the economic                                                               
benefits of  Alaska's wildlife throughout  the state.   The Board                                                               
of  Game  is  concerned  about   maintaining  and  enhancing  the                                                               
industry as a legitimate use of wildlife, Mr. Somerville stated.                                                                
MR. SOMERVILLE  told the members  that one problem the  board has                                                               
run into  relates to the guides/outfitters/transporters,  and the                                                               
unregulated massive deployment of big  game hunters in some areas                                                               
of the state.   In some cases there are  legitimate complaints by                                                               
rural residents that an area is  being inundated, and there is no                                                               
mechanism to control  this, he explained.  For  example, if there                                                               
is a complaint  of air taxi operators dropping a  large number of                                                               
hunters in the Kobuk River, the  Board of Game can say that there                                                               
is a  problem and initiate  a tiered system for  subsistence, but                                                               
it  is difficult  to get  out  of it,  he commented.   The  other                                                               
option is  to say that  the use of  aircraft will not  be allowed                                                               
for the  first six weeks of  the season.  Mr.  Somerville pointed                                                               
out   that  penalizes   local  residents   or  legitimate   guide                                                               
operators.   The Board  of Game  does not  have the  authority to                                                               
single out  certain segments of  the transportation  industry and                                                               
try to  regulate it.  He  explained that it is  difficult because                                                               
the local residents will come to  the board saying that they wish                                                               
this problem to  be fixed, but the board does  not have the tools                                                               
to do that.                                                                                                                     
MR. SOMERVILLE acknowledged  that another part of  the problem is                                                               
that it  is difficult to  tell if the complaints  are legitimate,                                                               
even though  they are perceived  to be legitimate.   He explained                                                               
that no documentation exists so the  board does not know if there                                                               
are  50, 100,  150, or  250 hunters  in an  area at  a particular                                                               
time.  If  there were documentation then the board  could come up                                                               
with  some  kind of  equation  on  hunter  pressure.   This  bill                                                               
doesn't address that  part of the air  transportation system, but                                                               
the  board believes  it should  be part  of this  legislation, he                                                               
Number 1290                                                                                                                     
MR. SOMERVILLE  told the members  that he has spent  time talking                                                               
with Rick  Urion [Director,  Division of  Occupational Licensing,                                                               
Department  of  Community  and  Economic  Development],  and  the                                                               
Anchorage  Chamber  of Commerce  on  this  issue.   He  told  the                                                               
committee the idea that was suggested  and that he agrees with is                                                               
that  some  of  this  problem  can  be  addressed  by  additional                                                               
regulations and enforcement.                                                                                                    
MR. SOMERVILLE commented that if  the members reject this bill he                                                               
suggests that  the legislature  look for some  other way  to give                                                               
Mr.  Urion and  staff  some way  to have  better  control of  the                                                               
industries  which  are  under  the purview  of  the  Division  of                                                               
Occupational Licensing.                                                                                                         
MR. SOMERVILLE  shared that he  believes the benefits of  a board                                                               
are  somewhat obvious  if the  legislation  is crafted  properly.                                                               
One important point is that there  would be focus from people who                                                               
are interested in  the industry which is being  regulated.  There                                                               
would  be  the motivation  to  do  something about  the  problems                                                               
facing the industry; the expertise  to do something about it; and                                                               
the result  would be the  development of  enforcement, standards,                                                               
and ethics,  he said.   Mr. Somerville  told the members  that he                                                               
believes Mr.  Urion is  capable of  getting all  of this  down on                                                               
paper, but  the ability to implement  it in the field  would be a                                                               
matter of debate.                                                                                                               
MR. SOMERVILLE suggested  that if this legislation  is crafted in                                                               
a certain  way it  could be  an opportunity for  the board  to be                                                               
used in  a slightly  different fashion.   It could  be used  as a                                                               
mechanism  to enhance  the people's  use of  the resource  in the                                                               
rural areas for economic purposes.   In other words, he suggested                                                               
that  the Big  Game Commercial  Services  Board be  used to  help                                                               
craft  courses for  people  in smaller  communities  so they  can                                                               
become class  A assistant  guides for  instance.   Mr. Somerville                                                               
suggested that  the legislation be  modified so that  course work                                                               
could be  used as a  substitute for  part of the  requirements to                                                               
become  a class  A assistant  guide.   It would  be a  tremendous                                                               
benefit to an adult living in a  small community who has 15 or 20                                                               
years of hunting experience and  maintaining trophy animals to be                                                               
able to take a  course and qualify so that he  could work under a                                                               
guide.  It would  be a way to enhance the  use of these resources                                                               
for  commercial  purposes, Mr.  Somerville  said.   He  told  the                                                               
committee that  Mr. Fleagle pointed out  to him that it  would be                                                               
necessary for there  to be a change in attitude  in some of these                                                               
small communities to accept this.   Providing this opportunity is                                                               
a legitimate way to provide  economic opportunities for people in                                                               
Rural Alaska, he stated.                                                                                                        
Number 1506                                                                                                                     
MR.  SOMERVILLE asked  that there  be some  accommodation in  the                                                               
bill that  says if  hunters or big  game animals  are transported                                                               
that some  reporting requirements  must be implemented  and given                                                               
to the Board of  Game.  He told the members  that this would help                                                               
the Board of  Game in addressing some of the  complaints that are                                                               
received.   It  would  also help  the  enforcement staff  because                                                               
there would  be documentation of  when someone was in  the field.                                                               
In summary  Mr. Somerville said that  he believes this is  a good                                                               
start.    He  said  he  recognizes   that  some  of  this  is  an                                                               
evolutionary process,  but believes this  is a move in  the right                                                               
Number 1521                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG referred to  the handout on definitions                                                               
[Sec.  08.54.790.   DEFINITIONS.]  in which  both  the guide  and                                                               
outfitters are considered a service.   He asked for clarification                                                               
that transporters are not considered a service.                                                                                 
MR. SOMERVILLE  suggested that Representative Guttenberg  look at                                                               
transportation  services in  AS  08.55.010 where  it exempts  air                                                               
taxi operators who  take big game [hunters],  incidental to their                                                               
other activities.  So if  transporters are doing this service for                                                               
this purpose  then it would be  covered, but if it  is incidental                                                               
to other  activities then  the service would  not be  covered, he                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG  asked  if  it would  be  the  board's                                                               
intention to include transporters.                                                                                              
MR. SOMERVILLE replied  yes.  The board believes  it is important                                                               
to  include all  air  taxi operators  or  transporters that  take                                                               
hunters  and big  game  to  ensure that  some  kind of  reporting                                                               
requirement is met.                                                                                                             
Number 1584                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM  said that  Section 23 of  HB 442  would amend                                                               
Alaska statute that pertains to  the waiting period for reporting                                                               
violations.   It raises  the number  of days from  20 days  to 40                                                               
days.  She asked Mr. Somerville to comment on that change.                                                                      
MR. SOMERVILLE  suggested that she  check with the  Department of                                                               
Community and  Economic Development on the  rationale behind that                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH  suggested that the change  in reporting                                                               
time  was  likely  implemented  in   an  effort  to  protect  the                                                               
MR. SOMERVILLE  commented that one  of the major purposes  of the                                                               
board is  to provide  protection to  the consumer,  the industry,                                                               
and   the  state.     He   added  that   well-regulated  wildlife                                                               
populations  that are  used by  transporters is  a benefit  to us                                                               
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM referred  to page 2, line 4,  where the makeup                                                               
of the  seven members of the  board are outlined.   She asked Mr.                                                               
Somerville  what his  feelings are  on  the makeup  of the  seven                                                               
member board.                                                                                                                   
MR. SOMERVILLE commented  that his personal view is  that this is                                                               
a reasonable articulation of the number  of people.  He said that                                                               
if the bill is expanded to  address more of the air taxi industry                                                               
issues  then  it might  be  important  to adjust  the  membership                                                               
Number 1763                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA  referred to  page 11, line[s  14 though]                                                               
17, where  there is  a change in  the revocation  standard, which                                                               
     (d) The  board [DEPARTMENT] shall permanently  revoke a                                                                
     transporter license  or any class  of guide  license if                                                                    
     the board  [DEPARTMENT] finds after a  hearing that the                                                                
     license   was  obtained   through  fraud,   deceit,  or                                                                    
     intentional [INNOCENT] misrepresentation.                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA  pointed out that  the way the  law reads                                                               
now it says  that the board can  revoke a license if  it is found                                                               
after  a hearing  that the  license was  obtained through  fraud,                                                               
deceit, or  "innocent" misrepresentation.  The  bill would change                                                               
that  word to  "intentional."   She commented  that the  statutes                                                               
reads a  lot more logically to  her with the change  in language.                                                               
Representative  Kerttula  asked Mr.  Somerville  if  this was  an                                                               
MR.  SOMERVILLE suggested  that she  ask someone  on staff  about                                                               
that point.                                                                                                                     
Number 1832                                                                                                                     
MATT   ROBUS,  Director,   Division  of   Wildlife  Conservation,                                                               
Department of  Fish and Game,  testified on HB 442,  and answered                                                               
questions from  the members.   He explained that since  the Board                                                               
of Game  and the division work  so closely together much  of what                                                               
he says will sound familiar  to member Somerville's presentation.                                                               
Although the  three departments most involved  in the transporter                                                               
and  guiding  industries  have  met,   there  has  not  yet  been                                                               
consensus with respect to HB 442.                                                                                               
MR.  ROBUS told  the  members that  he believes  this  is a  very                                                               
important issue.  He said that  over the years he has worked with                                                               
the  Board   of  Game  in   its  attempt  to   regulate  wildlife                                                               
populations.   He said  he believes  that there  is at  least one                                                               
important  component of  resource wildlife  management for  which                                                               
the Board  of Game  is not  well equipped to  handle.   Mr. Robus                                                               
pointed out  that the authority  the Board  of Game has  and that                                                               
the department  works with are focused  on biological management.                                                               
When  there  is  a  biological  problem  it  can  be  dealt  with                                                               
effectively,   he  commented.      When  the   board,  with   the                                                               
department's  input, adjusts  seasons,  bag  limits, methods  and                                                               
means  for  hunting, it  can  and  does provide  for  sustainable                                                               
harvests of  Alaska's wildlife  populations.   The Board  of Game                                                               
also  allocates wildlife  resources  between  users according  to                                                               
provisions in  several state statutes, including  the subsistence                                                               
statute.   These  are  based  on the  abundance  of the  wildlife                                                               
population and the relationship to the demand from hunters.                                                                     
Number 1945                                                                                                                     
MR. ROBUS explained  that when it comes to  the conflicts between                                                               
different groups of hunters the  Board of Game's tools are poorly                                                               
adapted because  it was  not originally  created to  handle these                                                               
issues.    In many  cases  the  conflicts  are societal  and  not                                                               
biological.  A  body to regulate societal problems  would be much                                                               
more  successful  in  filling  in  the  gap  in  management  that                                                               
presently exists, he summarized.                                                                                                
MR.  ROBUS said  for example,  one of  the common  conflicts that                                                               
occurs  are  between  local  and  rural  hunters,  and  non-local                                                               
hunters of  all types  that are  brought into  an area  and which                                                               
impedes  each  others interests  in  hunting.   These  are  often                                                               
related  to how  different groups  are distributed  in space  and                                                               
time in the  field.  He explained that it  often occurs below the                                                               
point where  there is a biological  issue that needs to  be dealt                                                               
with in  some kind of  restriction in hunting opportunities.   In                                                               
those situations  the Department of  Fish and Game and  the Board                                                               
of Game can  do little to improve the situation,  he stated.  The                                                               
board   cannot  eliminate   hunter  groups,   like  non-residents                                                               
hunters, who  always seem  to get the  blame for  problems unless                                                               
there is a real  biological need to do so.   Given the impacts to                                                               
the  guiding  industry   and  the  revenue  to   the  state,  the                                                               
elimination  of the  hunter  groups should  not  be considered  a                                                               
successful solution anyway, he said.                                                                                            
Number 2016                                                                                                                     
MR. ROBUS told the members that  for these reasons he believes it                                                               
is necessary for  the state to effectively  manage the activities                                                               
of big game guiding, outfitting,  and the transporter industry as                                                               
a compliment  to what the  Board of Game is  equipped to do.   He                                                               
pointed out  that the  only pathways  the Board  of Game  and the                                                               
Department of Fish and Game  have in eliminating hunter conflicts                                                               
are draconian.  It would have  to eliminate a group of hunters or                                                               
a type of  access, and that is not a  very satisfactory solution,                                                               
he commented.   Mr. Robus  went on to say  that the lack  of good                                                               
regulatory handles  on these industries  has meant that  the only                                                               
allocation ability available has been  on the part of the federal                                                               
government on federal  lands.  The state has had  to give up some                                                               
degree  of authority  on  the management  of  hunting on  federal                                                               
lands  because the  department lacks  the  authority to  allocate                                                               
between the  different parts of  these industries,  he explained.                                                               
Mr.  Robus summarized  that  although there  is  not a  consensus                                                               
opinion yet, he  is testified today to validate the  need of such                                                               
Number 2120                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  KERTTULA asked  Mr. Robus  how bad  the conflicts                                                               
have become.   She questioned whether  the Board of Game  will be                                                               
forced to close areas to hunting.                                                                                               
MR. ROBUS  replied that  the board  is already  in the  middle of                                                               
those  kinds of  problems.    The Upper  Kobuk  River  is a  good                                                               
example where  in the  last couple  of years  the board  got very                                                               
close to  enacting a  controlled use area  which would  not allow                                                               
transported  hunters  and  non-resident hunters  because  of  the                                                               
level of  conflict with  local users.   Since  then some  of that                                                               
problem shifted  to other areas of  the state, he commented.   At                                                               
the board  meeting next week  the same problem will  be addressed                                                               
in the Middle Kuskokwim, in units  19A and 19B, where there are a                                                               
lot of local rural users with  a tradition of using the area, and                                                               
there   are   also  both   guided   and   unguided  hunters   who                                                               
traditionally have  come into  the area.   In recent  years, with                                                               
the  moose  populations not  doing  very  well, the  problem  has                                                               
escalated into a  big allocation issue, and may  result in hunter                                                               
groups being excluded, Mr. Robus explained.                                                                                     
Number 2200                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH  asked Mr.  Robus if  the fines  play an                                                               
integral part in what the department is trying to achieve.                                                                      
MR. ROBUS  reiterated his statement  that three  departments have                                                               
met to  come to some  consensus on  this.  Those  departments are                                                               
the Department of Public Safety,  the Department of Community and                                                               
Economic Development, and the Department  of Fish and Game.  Even                                                               
though fish and game biologists  are usually deputized to do some                                                               
enforcement, the Department  of Fish and Game is  not the primary                                                               
enforcement agency, he  explained.  Mr. Robus said  that he would                                                               
defer the answer to that question to the other two departments.                                                                 
Number 2260                                                                                                                     
JOE  KLUTSCH, Member,  Alaska  Professional Hunters  Association,                                                               
testified on HB 442 and answered  questions from the members.  He                                                               
told the members  that he has lived in Rural  Alaska for 32 years                                                               
as  an  assistant guide,  owner  of  a small  sportfishing  guide                                                               
business, and  has been a registered  guide since 1979.   In 1973                                                               
the  original Guide  License and  Control Board  was established.                                                               
Even  as an  assistant  guide  he told  the  members he  attended                                                               
everyone of those meetings through  the 1970s and into the 1980s.                                                               
It  was quite  a learning  process  that provided  him with  some                                                               
historical  perspective on  this issue.    In 1989  the Big  Game                                                               
Commercial Service Board was formed  and he attended all of those                                                               
meetings as well, he said.                                                                                                      
Number 2305                                                                                                                     
MR.  KLUTSCH  told  the  members  that  there  are  a  number  of                                                               
justifications   that  members   of   the   association  see   in                                                               
reestablishing a board.   First of all it is  a public forum that                                                               
allows for  interaction between  all the  effected parties.   Not                                                               
just  guides and  transporters, but  the land  managers as  well.                                                               
That has  been absent for the  last seven or eight  years and has                                                               
caused a  lot of problems.   It has  created a disconnect  in the                                                               
enforcement  and  establishment of  regulations,  he  said.   Mr.                                                               
Klutsch explained  that there  is no  substitute for  this forum.                                                               
There  is  nowhere  else  to   hear  other  people's  issues  and                                                               
concerns.   There has  been an  effort to  do this  through phone                                                               
calls and e-mails, but it does not work, he stated.                                                                             
MR.  KLUTSCH   pointed  out  another   problem  related   to  the                                                               
sunsetting of  the board.   When  this occurred  Alaska abrogated                                                               
many  of  its  regulatory   and  management  responsibilities  to                                                               
various federal agencies such as  the U.S. National Park Service,                                                               
the U.S. Fish and Wildlife  Service, and the U.S. Forest Service,                                                               
he explained.   Mr. Klutsch  clarified that without the  board in                                                               
place federal agencies began to  take it upon themselves to begin                                                               
to   design    permitting   schemes   and    regulatory   schemes                                                               
independently to deal  with situations that they  were really not                                                               
familiar  with.   Mr. Klutsch  told  the members  that under  the                                                               
former  board's  process  these individuals  would  attend,  have                                                               
their say,  could hear what the  other concerns were, and  at the                                                               
end  of  the  process  a   regulation  would  be  developed  that                                                               
reflected everyone's needs.  He pointed  out that when there is a                                                               
board  process   there  is  an   institutional  knowledge   or  a                                                               
continuous flow of  historical background and knowledge.   As the                                                               
administration changes a new director  and new people come on who                                                               
do not  have the  background or  collective memory  to understand                                                               
how the  board has arrived  at this point  and where it  needs to                                                               
go, he explained.  Mr. Klutsch said  that a board is able to work                                                               
through the  various bureaucracies and  respond in a  more timely                                                               
fashion.   If it  is done administratively  the same  process can                                                               
take months or  years and requires tremendous effort  on the part                                                               
of industry to influence the outcome of regulations.                                                                            
Number 2478                                                                                                                     
MR.  KLUTSCH   commented  that  Representative  Samuels   did  an                                                               
excellent job  in covering  the issue  of the  different agencies                                                               
that manage  land.  There are  seven agencies in all,  five state                                                               
agencies  and two  federal agencies.    He asked  the members  to                                                               
remember  that each  of these  agencies has  different management                                                               
responsibilities   and  management   statements.     Mr.  Klutsch                                                               
commented  that   it  is  extremely   difficult  for   anyone  to                                                               
individually deal with each of  these agencies which would result                                                               
in regulations  that reflect  industries needs.   There  has been                                                               
concern over the years that  more regulations have been developed                                                               
than  are  needed.   The  guiding  industry  does not  want  more                                                               
regulations,  but more  effective,  enforceable regulations,  Mr.                                                               
Klutsch stated.   There has been  a real absence of  that in past                                                               
years,  and  it  is  the  industry's hope  that  this  bill  will                                                               
accomplish those  goals.   He said  he believes  a board  will be                                                               
able to accomplish these goals in a measured manner.                                                                            
Number 2540                                                                                                                     
MR.  KLUTSCH  said  in  summary  that  he  cannot  overstate  how                                                               
important the  members of the  industry and association  feel the                                                               
establishment of this board is.   This issue has been extensively                                                               
discussed and  there is widespread support  for the reinstitution                                                               
of a board.  The industry wants  the board to be fair and to work                                                               
effectively to maintain  a proper management system  in the state                                                               
of Alaska, he  concluded.  This legislation  will defend wildlife                                                               
management  and  provide  stability   in  both  the  guiding  and                                                               
transporter industries.                                                                                                         
Number 2579                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked if Mr.  Klutsch knows why the board was                                                               
MR. KLUTSCH responded  that there were a  combination of factors.                                                               
He  said he  believes there  was confusion  on the  part of  some                                                               
members of  the public  and several legislators  as to  the value                                                               
and function of  the board.  It was perceived  that the board was                                                               
misdirected  and  was   creating  unnecessary  regulations  which                                                               
served as impediments to the industry.                                                                                          
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN  asked  if  Mr. Klutsch  believes  this  new                                                               
legislation  would address  some of  those issues.   How  is this                                                               
bill different than what was in place before.                                                                                   
MR. KLUTSCH  said he thinks  the organization and makeup  of this                                                               
board,  which includes  representation  of guides,  transporters,                                                               
and members of public, and with  the input from state and federal                                                               
agencies could be far more responsive.   He told the members that                                                               
the audit report  was very favorable in that the  prior board was                                                               
responsive and  cost effective.   He said he believes  this board                                                               
could  be an  improvement  over the  previous  board because  the                                                               
results of an absence of the board is known.                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR MASEK  invited Representatives Samuels and  Fate to join                                                               
the members at the committee table.                                                                                             
Number 2715                                                                                                                     
PAUL JOHNSON testified  on HB442 and answered  questions from the                                                               
members.   He told the  members that he has  been a guide  for 30                                                               
years and  a lodge  owner in  Southeast Alaska.   He  pointed out                                                               
that this industry is not one  that has come forward to the state                                                               
to ask for loans, disaster  relief, or advertising.  The industry                                                               
has  done  it themselves,  but  what  it  is  asking for  now  is                                                               
reasonable  regulations so  this $110  million industry  can stay                                                               
viable.  It is losing ground, he stated.                                                                                        
MR.  JOHNSON  commented  that the  Department  of  Community  and                                                               
Economic  Development  cannot  address the  problems  facing  the                                                               
industry in-house.   The industry  is willing  to pay for  and do                                                               
this themselves, he  stated.  For example, there  are problems in                                                               
one part of the state that do  not exist in another part, and on-                                                               
going issues  with agencies  that formerly  were directed  to the                                                               
board  where compromises  were  worked out,  he  explained.   One                                                               
point that  needs to be  addressed is  the issue of  rural needs.                                                               
This  bill provides  for two  private landholders  to sit  on the                                                               
board,  which he  believes  is  important as  there  are over  44                                                               
million acres of privately owned land  in Alaska.  When the board                                                               
got sunsetted it  was working on including people  in the economy                                                               
in rural areas.  There were testings in some rural areas and in-                                                                
roads  were being  made.   He  said that  it  is an  evolutionary                                                               
process and believes it needs to go forward.                                                                                    
Number 2836                                                                                                                     
MR. JOHNSON  said that he believes  that it is essential  to have                                                               
this board's  interaction with  Board of Game  members.   He told                                                               
the members  that currently there  is a huge disconnect  going on                                                               
between  the state  departments.   Mr. Johnson  believes problems                                                               
with transporters cannot be resolved  through statute and must be                                                               
done through regulation  because the issues are so  complex.  Mr.                                                               
Johnson said he  believes that these problems  are best addressed                                                               
through  a board  process where  everyone gets  a chance  to have                                                               
their say.                                                                                                                      
MR. JOHNSON  responded to  an earlier question  as to  the reason                                                               
this board  was sunsetted, by  providing the committee  with some                                                               
historical background.   He said that the board got  a vote of 38                                                               
to  1  vote  to  extend  the  sunset  [in  the  Alaska  House  of                                                               
Representatives],  and the  bill  was sent  to  the Alaska  State                                                               
Senate where  it was held in  committee.  There was  never a vote                                                               
in the senate, if  it had come to the floor for  a vote, it would                                                               
have passed, he stated.                                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN commented  that  is the  information he  was                                                               
looking for.                                                                                                                    
Number 2894                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR  MASEK asked  Mr.  Johnson to  comment  on the  question                                                               
Representative Guttenberg mentioned  concerning the definition of                                                               
guides versus guide/outfitter.                                                                                                  
MR. JOHNSON explained that in  territorial days the U.S. Fish and                                                               
Wildlife Service handled  the guiding industry, then  in 1972 the                                                               
guide board was established.  There  were a number of issues that                                                               
needed to  be addressed  so the legislature  setup a  task force.                                                               
Henry  Springer was  the  chair.   The  result  was that  several                                                               
outfitters  were  grandfathered  in  as  guide/outfitters.    Mr.                                                               
Johnson commented that  he realizes this is a bit  confusing.  He                                                               
explained  that the  task  force put  hats  on different  people.                                                               
Part of the problem that occurred  is that during the work of the                                                               
task  force a  decision  came  down on  the  "common use  clause"                                                               
called the  Owsichek decision [Owsichek v.  State Guide Licensing                                                             
and Control  Board] which that  raised the ire of  one particular                                                             
senator.  Mr. Johnson  went on to say that the  hats were put on,                                                               
a new board was created which  expanded its purview beyond just a                                                               
guide board, it became a  commercial services board that included                                                               
transporters.   It  also included  a private  landholder and  the                                                               
board of game.  It had an  excellent audit, and it was paying its                                                               
own way, he said.                                                                                                               
TAPE 04-6, SIDE B                                                                                                             
Number 2976                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR  DAHLSTROM asked  if Mr.  Johnson  would be  comfortable                                                               
commenting  on an  earlier questions  she asked  and referred  to                                                               
page 12,  line 14, where there  is a change in  reporting from 20                                                               
days to 40 days.                                                                                                                
MR. JOHNSON responded  that the reason for the change  in days is                                                               
that those who  are in the field and have  two 10-day hunts, back                                                               
to back, find  that the cut off days in  reporting violations can                                                               
create problems.  For example, if  a guide comes back and reports                                                               
a violation  on the  22nd day,  there is  an automatic  fine, Mr.                                                               
Johnson added.  A 40-day time  period allows that extra time that                                                               
may be  necessary when considering  weather conditions  and other                                                               
things that could happen in the  field, he explained.  The change                                                               
in time  will not impact  any investigation that may  take place,                                                               
he noted.                                                                                                                       
Number 2885                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM asked Mr. Johnson  what the current process is                                                               
in terms of reporting a violation.                                                                                              
MR. JOHNSON replied that he has  never reported a violation so he                                                               
cannot honestly speak from experience.   He told the members that                                                               
if  there  were a  violation  he  would  call the  public  safety                                                               
officer in  Hoonah on the  phone to  advise him, and  the officer                                                               
would come straight out.                                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE  STEPOVICH  asked Mr.  Johnson  how  high the  new                                                               
maximum fine would be under the new statute.                                                                                    
MR. JOHNSON said he believes it was raised to $5,000.                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE  STEPOVICH  said  he  believes  the  maximum  fine                                                               
before was set at $30,000.                                                                                                      
MR. JOHNSON said  he could not comment.   He said that  is one of                                                               
the unfortunate  aspects of not  having a board because  if there                                                               
were one he would be better advised.                                                                                            
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH clarified that  the board will establish                                                               
the fines at their discretion.                                                                                                  
MR. JOHNSON said that is correct.   He told the members that when                                                               
there   was   a   board,  the   Department   of   Public   Safety                                                               
representative  would  attended  the board  meetings,  the  board                                                               
members would interact with the  department, and regulations were                                                               
established that  worked in the  field.   All the work  that went                                                               
into that  task force just  fell through  the cracks and  that is                                                               
sad, he said.                                                                                                                   
CO-CHAIR  MASEK   referred  to  an  earlier   question  posed  by                                                               
Representative Kerttula  about Section 19 where  the language was                                                               
changed from "innocent" to "intentional".   She asked Mr. Johnson                                                               
to comment on that point.                                                                                                       
MR. JOHNSON  replied that  he likes  the word  intentional rather                                                               
than innocent.                                                                                                                  
CO-CHAIR  MASEK announced  that Representative  Gatto has  joined                                                               
the meeting at 2:04 p.m.                                                                                                        
Number 2686                                                                                                                     
RICK  URION,   Director,  Division  of   Occupational  Licensing,                                                               
Department of  Community and  Economic Development,  testified in                                                               
support of  HB 442 and answered  questions from the members.   He                                                               
thanked the  guiding industry for  bringing this bill  forward as                                                               
the system  is broken and  needs to be  fixed.  The  division has                                                               
been criticized because  it is not vigorously  enforcing the laws                                                               
and not fining people thousands of  dollars.  He told the members                                                               
that  the division  is absolutely  hamstrung.   In recent  months                                                               
there have been a number of  complaints against guides.  Some are                                                               
probably justified  and some  not, but  there is  no way  to tell                                                               
because  there  is  no  contract   and  nothing  in  writing,  he                                                               
explained.  It is simply a "he said versus he said" situation.                                                                  
MR. URION explained that the laws  are written in such a way that                                                               
it cannot be interpreted.  For  example, two months ago there was                                                               
a  request from  a guide  who wanted  the division  to define  in                                                               
writing what "in  the field" means.  Mr. Urion  commented that it                                                               
sounds like a  reasonable request; however, he is not  able to do                                                               
that.  In this case there is a  lake with a small community and a                                                               
school at  one end.   This guide  has a house  that is  located 3                                                               
miles  from that  community that  is only  accessible by  boat or                                                               
plane.  He lives there year-round.   Mr. Urion asked if the guide                                                               
is in the  field.  The answer  is no, he said.   Three miles from                                                               
that community is  a cabin and another guide who  uses that cabin                                                               
only during the hunting season.  Is  he in the field?  The answer                                                               
is yes, he stated.  Mr.  Urion commented that with laws like that                                                               
how can  the division give any  fines.  The division  cannot even                                                               
define "in the field."                                                                                                          
MR.  URION summarized  that the  system is  broken and  needs the                                                               
legislature's attention  to fix  it.   The division  has specific                                                               
recommendations to make it better.                                                                                              
Number 2574                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF  asked for clarification on  the house versus                                                               
the cabin.                                                                                                                      
MR.  URION  explained that  he  is  talking about  two  different                                                               
guides, one who  lives in a house,  and the other who  stays in a                                                               
cabin  during hunting  season.   He  commented  that the  guide's                                                               
cabin is twice as big as the  other guide's house.  Size does not                                                               
enter into it.                                                                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked if the house  is a permanent abode.  He                                                               
commented that should be the defining factor between the two.                                                                   
MR. URION  replied that this  punishes the  guy who goes  out and                                                               
lives in the bush.                                                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE  WOLF  responded that  he  does  not want  to  see                                                               
someone punished for  living in the bush.  Living  in a permanent                                                               
abode  can mean  that an  individual can  get a  resident fishing                                                               
license for  instance.  A  permanent abode can be  a recreational                                                               
vehicle (RV) on blocks.                                                                                                         
Number 2498                                                                                                                     
ROBERT HARDY, registered big game  guide, testified on HB 442 and                                                               
answered questions  from the members.   He  shared that he  has a                                                               
seasonal home outside of Wasilla, and  lives the rest of the year                                                               
in the  Talkeetna Mountains  where he works  as a  registered big                                                               
game  guide and  an eco-tourism  operator.   Mr.  Hardy told  the                                                               
members  that he  is  testifying in  opposition to  HB  442.   He                                                               
acknowledged  that there  are issues  with the  transporter/guide                                                               
industry as it currently exists.                                                                                                
MR. HARDY  explained that he  has witnessed and  suffered through                                                               
the frustration of the Board of Game  process.   As both a member                                                               
of the  public and former member  of the board he  recognizes the                                                               
issues  related  to allocation  between  the  two industries  and                                                               
other Alaskan  residents, both  rural and  non-rural.   Mr. Hardy                                                               
said that he does not believe  this issue can be addressed in the                                                               
bill as it is currently written.   What occurred in the past with                                                               
the  Big Game  Commercial Services  Board was  a disfunctionality                                                               
that was  brought about by a  board that was largely  composed of                                                               
industry  peers  or  the  "good old  boys  club"  that  benefited                                                               
itself, he stated.                                                                                                              
Number 2374                                                                                                                     
MR. HARDY  said that he does  not believe this legislation  is in                                                               
the best  interest of the  resource for other Alaskans.   Without                                                               
creating something  in statute that  addresses the  protection of                                                               
other Alaskans' interest  he said he does not see  the benefit of                                                               
creating  a board  that  generates regulations  for  itself.   He                                                               
suggested  the members  look at  other ways  to address  the real                                                               
issues, such  as the  number of  operators in  the field  and the                                                               
number  of  their  clientele.     Mr.  Hardy  suggested  that  to                                                               
accomplish  it would  be  necessary to  reinvent  an area  system                                                               
under a  limited entry perspectives  for the industries  and then                                                               
set a board within that statute to establish regulations.                                                                       
CO-CHAIR  MASEK announced  that  the committee  will continue  to                                                               
take public testimony,  and there will be  additional hearings on                                                               
HB 442.  She announced that the bill will be held in committee.                                                                 
HB 345-CAMPSITE FEES: DISABLED VETERANS/SENIORS                                                                               
Number 2274                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR  DAHLSTROM announced  that  the next  order of  business                                                               
would be HOUSE  BILL NO. 345, "An Act relating  to fees for state                                                               
park developed campsites; and providing for an effective date."                                                                 
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM  told the members  the HB 345, version  23 LS-                                                               
1299\A, is before the committee.                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STEPOVICH asked if  there were previous amendments                                                               
to the bill.                                                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM  replied that to  her knowledge there  were no                                                               
other previous amendments.                                                                                                      
Number 2209                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO commented  that  the reason  Representative                                                               
Stepovich asked if  there were previous amendments is  that as he                                                               
[Representative Gatto] was going  through the materials and found                                                               
two other amendments that were  labeled Amendment 1 and Amendment                                                               
2.  He  just wanted to verify that the  amendment the members are                                                               
looking at  is Amendment 1  and not Amendment 3.   Representative                                                               
Gatto said  he understands that  Representative Fate  offered the                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE FATE replied that is correct.                                                                                    
The committee took an at-ease from 2:15 p.m. to 2:17 p.m.                                                                       
CO-CHAIR  DAHLSTROM clarified  that  there  were some  amendments                                                               
that were handed  out during the last hearing, but  they were not                                                               
adopted.   She  announced that  the committee  will move  forward                                                               
with Representative Stepovich's amendment.                                                                                      
Number 2140                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN moved  Amendment  1, labeled  23-LS1299\A.2,                                                               
Luckhaupt, 2/4/04, which reads as follows:                                                                                      
     Page 2, lines 5 - 8:                                                                                                       
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
          Insert "(d) The department shall issue (1) free                                                                   
     of  charge to  a  disabled veteran  [VETERANS] of  this                                                            
     country who is a resident of  this state, or (2) for an                                                                
     annual fee  of $10 to a  resident of this state  who is                                                                
     60  years  of  age  or  older,  an  annual  state  park                                                                
     developed campsite permit."                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEPOVICH commented  that as  a veteran  a person                                                               
has paid his/her  dues.  He said he believes  since the person is                                                               
a  disabled veteran  means all  the more  that it  should not  be                                                               
necessary  to get  more from  him/her.   Representative Stepovich                                                               
said  he  strongly  supports  veterans.   When  he  thinks  of  a                                                               
disabled veteran he thinks that  person is disabled and served so                                                               
that he can be where he is today.                                                                                               
CO-CHAIR  DAHLSTROM asked  if  there are  any  objections to  the                                                               
motion.  There being no objection, Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                     
Number 2043                                                                                                                     
JIM  POUND,  Staff  to Representative  Hugh  Fate,  Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature, testified on behalf  of Representative Fate, sponsor                                                               
of  HB 345.    He proposed  the that  the  committee address  two                                                               
proposed  amendments  to  HB  345  having  to  do  with  campsite                                                               
location.    He explained  that  in  the  urban areas  of  Alaska                                                               
private campsites  are often  available.   It is  somewhat unfair                                                               
for the State  to compete directly with these  private for profit                                                               
companies, he said.  Mr.  Pound suggested the following amendment                                                               
be considered by the committee:                                                                                                 
     Page 1, line 9, after "to use a"                                                                                           
     Insert "non-urban"                                                                                                         
     Page 2, line 5, after "Sec. 2"                                                                                             
     Insert "(f)  In this section "non-urban"  is defined as                                                                    
     a state  park developed  campsite located outside  of a                                                                    
     ten-mile radius of a city center."                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked what number of this amendment is.                                                                     
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM replied Amendment 2.                                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA  moved Amendment 2.   [Amendment language                                                               
previously stated]                                                                                                              
There being no objection, Amendment 2 was adopted.                                                                              
CO-CHAIR DAHLSTROM announced that the bill will be held in                                                                      
committee for additional testimony.                                                                                             
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:20 p.m.                                                                 

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