Legislature(2003 - 2004)

03/03/2003 01:05 PM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         March 3, 2003                                                                                          
                           1:05 p.m.                                                                                            
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
Representative Mike Chenault, Co-Chair                                                                                          
Representative Hugh Fate, Co-Chair                                                                                              
Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair                                                                                        
Representative Cheryll Heinze                                                                                                   
Representative Bob Lynn                                                                                                         
Representative David Guttenberg                                                                                                 
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
Representative Carl Gatto                                                                                                       
Representative Kelly Wolf                                                                                                       
Representative Beth Kerttula                                                                                                    
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS                                                                                                           
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission                                                                                    
     Sara Palin - Wasilla                                                                                                       
     Randy Ruedrich - Anchorage                                                                                                 
- CONFIRMATION(S) ADVANCED                                                                                                      
Commissioner, Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                                                              
     - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                                                  
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                               
No previous action to record                                                                                                    
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
SARA PALIN, Appointee                                                                                                           
to the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission                                                                               
Wasilla, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as  an appointee to the Alaska Oil                                                               
and Gas Conservation  Commission; provided background information                                                               
and answered questions.                                                                                                         
RANDY RUEDRICH, Appointee                                                                                                       
to the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission                                                                               
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as  an appointee to the Alaska Oil                                                               
and Gas Conservation  Commission; provided background information                                                               
and answered questions.                                                                                                         
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
TAPE 03-9, SIDE A                                                                                                             
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR HUGH FATE called the  House Resources Standing Committee                                                             
meeting to  order at 1:05  p.m.  Representatives  Fate, Chenault,                                                               
Heinze, Masek,  and Guttenberg  were present  during the  call to                                                               
order.    Representative  Lynn  arrived as  the  meeting  was  in                                                               
CONFIRMATION HEARING                                                                                                          
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission                                                                                    
CO-CHAIR FATE announced  the only order of business  would be the                                                               
confirmation  hearings on  the appointments  of  Sarah Palin  and                                                               
Randy   Ruedrich  to   the  Alaska   Oil  and   Gas  Conservation                                                               
Number 0159                                                                                                                     
The committee took an at-ease from 1:06 p.m. to 1:10 p.m.                                                                       
Number 0255                                                                                                                     
SARAH PALIN,  Appointee to  the Alaska  Oil and  Gas Conservation                                                               
Commission (AOGCC),  testified.  Ms.  Palin said the  pipeline is                                                               
half  full, which  translates into  questionable funding  for the                                                               
Alaska  State Troopers,  education, road  maintenance, and  other                                                               
state essentials.  She said  she appreciated being [appointed] to                                                               
a  public  seat  to  help   maximize  the  recovery  of  Alaska's                                                               
resources  for  all Alaskan's.    She  said  AOGCC's task  is  to                                                               
maximize recovery and  to eliminate waste, and her  role at AOGCC                                                               
will be  to play  a part  of that.   She  talked about  using the                                                               
administrative skills that  she gleaned as the  [former] mayor of                                                               
Wasilla and as president of  the Alaska Conference of Mayors, and                                                               
she said she believed she would be able to help in the AOGCC.                                                                   
Number 0422                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked Ms. Palin  what qualified her for this                                                               
Number 0439                                                                                                                     
MS. PALIN indicated that the  position requires being a member of                                                               
the  public   and  does  not  require   a  technical  background.                                                               
Therefore, she suggested, she is  qualified for the position, and                                                               
she referred to  her resume for an explanation  of her employment                                                               
history.  She said as a  lifelong Alaskan, she is very interested                                                               
and  concerned about  the oil  and gas  industry and  all of  the                                                               
resources in  Alaska.   She said she  thought the  combination of                                                               
her qualifications,  her interest,  and her concerns  would allow                                                               
her to serve and assist the commission.                                                                                         
Number 0528                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE HEINZE said Ms. Palin  was a "shining star" in the                                                               
[mayoral] election  and that  the people of  Alaska have  come to                                                               
trust  her.   She indicated  she was  in support  of Ms.  Palin's                                                               
appointment to AOGCC.                                                                                                           
Number 0583                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  suggested that the public  position is                                                               
very important, and  he asked Ms. Palin what  her perspective was                                                               
of the role of AOGCC.                                                                                                           
MS. PALIN suggested that perhaps  AOGCC has been underutilized in                                                               
terms of  outreach and cooperative  efforts with  other agencies,                                                               
departments,  and  commissions,  which  she said  are  needed  to                                                               
maximize  recovery  of  the  state's resources.    She  said  she                                                               
envisions her role  as being instrumental in  ensuring that AOGCC                                                               
is utilized appropriately and is able  to work with the public in                                                               
educational  matters  and with  other  necessary  agencies.   She                                                               
talked about a resolution which  was passed by the permanent fund                                                               
board of trustees that related to  oil and gas issues.  She noted                                                               
that the [commission] is still  discussing the resolution and the                                                               
direction it  will take,  and she  explained that  the resolution                                                               
asked AOGCC to be prepared  to take action to increase production                                                               
from state  leases.  She said  this means that AOGCC  is going to                                                               
have to  do some outreach  and be  utilized in terms  of reaching                                                               
out to other  areas, bodies, and public members  to work together                                                               
to  ensure  that  the  permanent  fund  resolution  is  addressed                                                               
Number 0768                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  noted that  Ms. Palin's  husband works                                                               
for the [oil]  industry, and he asked her how  she felt about the                                                               
potential of a conflict of interest.                                                                                            
MS.  PALIN  indicated  that  her   husband  is  employed  by  [BP                                                               
Exploration (Alaska), Inc.]  as a production operator.   She said                                                               
her husband has  nothing to do with management  or policy setting                                                               
and  doesn't  request  drilling  permits.   Ms.  Palin  said  her                                                               
husband's role in  the industry is not anything  that AOGCC would                                                               
be  dealing  with.    She   said  she  had  talked  with  several                                                               
[officials],  including  the governor  and  his  chief of  staff,                                                               
about the  potential for  a conflict, and  she indicated  she has                                                               
tried to  ensure that  people are  aware that  her husband  is an                                                               
employee  of the  industry,  so  it is  never  a  question.   She                                                               
indicated that a current AOGCC  commissioner, Dan Seamount, has a                                                               
potential conflict because his wife  is employed as a manager for                                                               
a  company in  the industry.   Ms.  Palin said  Mr. Seamount  was                                                               
confirmed  to [AOGCC]  and hadn't  had an  issue with  conflicts.                                                               
She suggested that  Mr. Seamount's situation has  set a precedent                                                               
that [having a spouse who works  in the industry] should be okay.                                                               
She said this dictates that  people with potential conflicts must                                                               
prove themselves  to be fair  and objective in dealing  with [the                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG   said  he  appreciated   Ms.  Palin's                                                               
efforts  to meet  a higher  standard, and  he suggested  that all                                                               
[Alaskan's] have a  vested interest in the health of  the oil and                                                               
gas industry in the state.                                                                                                      
CO-CHAIR  FATE asked  Ms.  Palin if  she has  had  time to  study                                                               
[AOGCC's] mission and responsibilities.                                                                                         
MS.  PALIN  said  she  had  been studying  the  mission  and  she                                                               
wondered if the legislature would  request AOGCC to "shift gears"                                                               
or  expand its  mission to  help meet  more of  the legislature's                                                               
CO-CHAIR FATE  asked Ms. Palin  if she had a  clear understanding                                                               
of her responsibilities on the commission.                                                                                      
MS. PALIN indicated her understanding  of her responsibilities is                                                               
becoming  clearer, and  she suggested  that some  staff who  have                                                               
experience  are still  "maneuvering  through."   She  said it  is                                                               
known that the appropriate agencies  are working together for the                                                               
greater  good   of  maximizing  the   recovery  of   the  state's                                                               
resources.  Ms. Palin suggested  that several departments such as                                                               
the  Department of  Natural Resources  (DNR),  the Department  of                                                               
Revenue, and  the Department of Environmental  Conservation (DEC)                                                               
are involved.   She suggested  that AOGCC's mission  statement is                                                               
open  to interpretation  and that  she and  others would  have to                                                               
maneuver  through   it  to  ensure   [they  all  have   the  same                                                               
Number 1102                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR FATE suggested the  Federal Energy Regulatory Commission                                                               
(FERC) would be  [involved with a future gas  pipeline in Alaska]                                                               
and that  there would  be times when  AOGCC and  FERC [disagree].                                                               
He  asked  Ms.  Palin  if   she  thought  her  involvement  as  a                                                               
commissioner of AOGCC would be necessary in that situation.                                                                     
MS. PALIN said  AOGCC's job is to protect the  public interest in                                                               
the  exploration  and development  of  the  state's oil  and  gas                                                               
resources,   and  to   maximize  the   ultimate  recovery   while                                                               
protecting property  rights, the environment, and  the health and                                                               
safety of  [the public].   She indicated AOGCC would  be involved                                                               
because [of its obligation] to protect the public interest.                                                                     
CO-CHAIR FATE said the Regulatory  Commission of Alaska (RCA) and                                                               
FERC will  be setting tariffs  that are based on  production, and                                                               
he suggested that production is  what the AOGCC would be involved                                                               
in.   He suggested  that production and  the eventual  terms that                                                               
are set for the tariff could be of some interest to AOGCC.                                                                      
MS. PALIN  said she could  foresee the AOGCC playing  an advisory                                                               
role at the  very least, and working with [FERC]  in those "value                                                               
issues" on recovery.                                                                                                            
Number 1316                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN told  Ms.  Palin that  he  thought that  she                                                               
would be an excellent public  member of the commission because of                                                               
her  background and  her long-demonstrated  ability to  listen to                                                               
concerns and communicate  concerns to a broad  range of Alaskans.                                                               
He  expressed  strong  support for  Ms.  Palin's  appointment  to                                                               
Number 1375                                                                                                                     
RANDY RUEDRICH, Appointee to the  Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation                                                               
Commission, testified.   Mr. Ruedrich said he has  an interest in                                                               
this  commission,  since  much   of  the  governor's  concept  of                                                               
"turning  Alaska  around"  relates  to  increasing  oil  and  gas                                                               
production.   He  said  he  felt it  was  terribly important  for                                                               
someone  who  has a  long,  positive  knowledge  of oil  and  gas                                                               
activities  to be  on  the  commission.   Mr.  Ruedrich said  his                                                               
career  goes back  to the  early 1970s  when he  was involved  in                                                               
determining the actual  permafrost loads on casings.   He mention                                                               
putting the whole  concept of resource recovery in  jeopardy.  He                                                               
said the  field rules  are still  related to  that work  that was                                                               
done and published  in 1975.  He said he  got intrigued by Alaska                                                               
and  came north  to work  on the  Slope full-time  as a  drilling                                                               
engineer and drilling foreman.                                                                                                  
MR. RUEDRICH  explained that his  career led him to  other places                                                               
to do the same  thing, but it always led him back  to Alaska.  He                                                               
said it  ultimately led him to  coming back in 1994,  to work for                                                               
Doyon,  Limited, on  the contractor  side after  25 years  in the                                                               
operator side of  the business, and more recently  to working for                                                               
small  lease holders  that  have  the ambition  to  do things  in                                                               
Alaska.   He  said  he had  been looking  at  trying to  maximize                                                               
production, and at  the entire gambit from the Cook  Inlet to the                                                               
North  Slope, to  ensure  that  there is  as  much  of a  healthy                                                               
economy derived  from "this  side of  the equation"  as possible.                                                               
Mr.  Ruedrich said  he  thought it  was one  of  the most  useful                                                               
things he  could do for Alaska,  and felt it was  the right thing                                                               
to  do.   He said  he was  very pleased  when Governor  Murkowski                                                               
appointed him to the commission.                                                                                                
Number 1538                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  HEINZE  told  the  committee that  she  knew  Mr.                                                               
Ruedrich personally and  held him in high regard.   She asked Mr.                                                               
Ruedrich for his response to  an [Anchorage Daily News] editorial                                                             
[regarding his involvement in the political process].                                                                           
MR. RUEDRICH said  he had already, because of  changes in federal                                                               
law, taken  steps to not  be involved as the  functional chairman                                                               
for  state activities  for the  Republican  Party.   He said  the                                                               
"central committee" has  already defined that as the  role of Ms.                                                               
Paulette  Simpson,  and that  his  involvement  in the  political                                                               
process  in  strictly  relative  to   the  federal  side  of  the                                                               
Republican Party.   He  said there  are virtually  no "relational                                                               
activities" between  being on the  commission and those  types of                                                               
activities.    Mr.  Ruedrich  said  he felt  that  there  was  no                                                               
conflict  or issue  at hand,  since all  of the  state activities                                                               
will be under the able direction  and control of Ms. Simpson, who                                                               
is vice-chair of the party and chairman for state operations.                                                                   
Number 1640                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG noted Mr.  Ruedrich's comment about not                                                               
being interested  in [AOGCC] until  recently.  However,  he said,                                                               
Mr. Ruedrich's resume  suggests he'd been involved  in this field                                                               
all of  his life.  He  applauded Mr. Ruedrich for  his continuing                                                               
responsibility  and expanded  roles,  and he  said [AOGCC]  seems                                                               
like   a   good   place  for   somebody   with   his   expertise.                                                               
Representative  Guttenberg talked  about  the role  of the  party                                                               
chair and about  the reorganization of state  and national roles.                                                               
He  said parties  have a  responsibility to  "do quite  a bit  of                                                               
reorganizing as they want, also."   He remarked, "I can't see how                                                               
you can separate them out."                                                                                                     
MR. RUEDRICH said current federal  law makes doing the separation                                                               
very  straightforward.   He explained  that under  the Bipartisan                                                               
Campaign  Reform Act  of 2002,  to  be involved  in both  federal                                                               
activities  and nonfederal  activities  - in  other words,  state                                                               
activities - could be found to be  a federal felony.  He said the                                                               
federal sentencing guidelines  have been defined at  this time as                                                               
a  one-to  four-year  prison  term.    He  said  the  [Bipartisan                                                               
Campaign  Reform  Act]  makes  it  very  apparent  that  defining                                                               
rigorous  separation of  authority is  necessary, and  under that                                                               
law, no  single entity can be  both on the federal  and the state                                                               
side at  the same  time.   He suggested that  it is  only natural                                                               
that  there is  a  division of  authority to  adhere  to the  new                                                               
federal law, and he said it's  with that in mind that in January,                                                               
the Republican Party took those  steps to be in compliance before                                                               
new activities  were engaged in,  after the most  recent election                                                               
cycle.   He said  the rationale  is bound by  federal law  to the                                                               
level of  criminal misconduct  if one  goes beyond  it, so  it is                                                               
very straightforward  and will  be followed  very carefully.   He                                                               
remarked,  "The  state  side,  essentially, it  drops  out  as  a                                                               
positive by-product of my disassociation that they're in."                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG said he  assumed Mr. Ruedrich would not                                                               
be attending any party functions.                                                                                               
MR.  RUEDRICH said  he did  not attend  the House  Majority event                                                               
that  was held  in Juneau.   He  said the  state convention  this                                                               
coming year will essentially be  a federal convention and will be                                                               
carried as  a federal activity  to elect  delegates to go  to the                                                               
national  convention.    He  said   different  events  will  have                                                               
different  connotations, and  for that  reason would  be defined,                                                               
and he  would not  be participating either  as host,  sponsor, or                                                               
participant  in House  or  Senate activities  in  this state  for                                                               
those [events].   He said  he would potentially  be participating                                                               
in  things that  are related  to  the federal  side of  political                                                               
operations, which are, by law, differentiated.                                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG expressed  concern about  the public's                                                               
MR. RUEDRICH  said to  his knowledge, there  has not  been anyone                                                               
from the  petroleum industry who has  appeared as a speaker  at a                                                               
Republican Party  event in more  than five years, and  he doesn't                                                               
recall ever having had such happen.   He said it is not something                                                               
that  would  be  terminated;  it's something  that's  never  even                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG said there  is a strong perception that                                                               
there  would be  a conflict  and he  thought the  Anchorage Daily                                                             
News editorial illustrated that.  He said he is concerned.                                                                    
Number 1948                                                                                                                     
MR. RUEDRICH  assured Representative  Guttenberg that  his duties                                                               
will be to  this job as a state employee,  to maximize production                                                               
and revenue,  as is  appropriate, under  the statutes  granted to                                                               
[AOGCC] by  the legislature.  He  said it would be  his intent to                                                               
have  no  involvement in  those  endeavors  that are  related  to                                                               
electing  [officials]  to  state  office,  since  those  are,  by                                                               
federal  law, clearly  separated.   Mr.  Ruedrich said  he has  a                                                               
limited  desire  to  raise  the  potential  for  grounds  for  an                                                               
investigation, much  less for a  conviction, so he would  be very                                                               
diligent at not  giving the perception of any  involvement in the                                                               
House and Senate activities for the 2004 election cycle.                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG said  Mr. Ruedrich  kept referring  to                                                               
the House and Senate campaign committees.                                                                                       
MR.  RUEDRICH said  the  governor's campaign  will  not be  until                                                               
2006, and the same rules would apply.                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG said  the Republican  Party of  Alaska                                                               
was able to receive both federal and state donations.                                                                           
MR. RUEDRICH  said clearly  the Republican  Party of  Alaska will                                                               
have to  have very  distinct -  as it  always has  had -  but now                                                               
separated events,  rather than  singular events  for fundraising.                                                               
He  said  there  would  be  federal  fundraising  and  nonfederal                                                               
fundraising activities.                                                                                                         
Number 2065                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  told Mr. Ruedrich  that his  resume reflects                                                               
an  exceptional list  of qualifications  for this  position.   He                                                               
said considering  the role that oil  and gas is going  to play in                                                               
the  future of  Alaska,  he couldn't  imagine appointing  anybody                                                               
else  to  this position.    He  said he  was  in  support of  Mr.                                                               
Ruedrich's appointment to AOGCC.                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  FATE turned  attention to  Mr. Ruedrich's  professional                                                               
qualifications,  and  he  asked  if  the  applicable  engineering                                                               
percentage  represents  the  amount  of  time  he  had  spent  in                                                               
specific engineering endeavors.                                                                                                 
MR. RUEDRICH remarked:                                                                                                          
     What I tried to do there  is, instead of looking at the                                                                    
     total  time   served  and  saying   it's  kind   of  an                                                                    
     engineering  job [and]  therefore ...  the entire  time                                                                    
     would  be applicable,  I looked  at what  the job  was.                                                                    
     ... For  example, the research  engineer role  from '72                                                                    
     to  '75   was  totally   involved  in   the  subsurface                                                                    
     engineering  work  for  Prudhoe   wells,  so  it's  100                                                                    
     percent applicable.                                                                                                        
     The time spent  later, in the early  '80s, for example,                                                                    
     the two-year period, about half  of that time was spent                                                                    
     in   such  tasks   as  managing   people  and   related                                                                    
     operational  issues  that  were not  truly  engineering                                                                    
     So, that's  about a  50 percent  activity, or  half the                                                                    
     time would count  toward applicable time to  be a down-                                                                    
     hole  engineer or  surface  process  engineer, the  two                                                                    
     items that  are the principal attributes  identified in                                                                    
     this  position  as  it  is defined  in  statute  or  in                                                                    
     The time  I spent in the  North Sea, ... the  job title                                                                    
     was  operations manager;  a huge  portion of  that time                                                                    
     was spent investigating  a highly complicated technical                                                                    
     venture  in   terms  of   a  failure   of  well-control                                                                    
     equipment and participating in  a formal inquiry, which                                                                    
     took almost two full years of  the time I was in the UK                                                                    
     [United Kingdom], and so while  I had a generalized job                                                                    
     title, a  lot of  this was  just a  very high  level of                                                                    
     technical engineering work.                                                                                                
Number 2228                                                                                                                     
     Subsequent to  that and  in parallel  with that  when I                                                                    
     was   not  engaged   in   that   project,  there   were                                                                    
     productions operations activities,  as well as drilling                                                                    
     activities, that had pure  engineering content, as well                                                                    
     as  what I  would call  management oversight.  ... What                                                                    
     I've  tried to  do  is characterize  in  each of  those                                                                    
     facets of my  past the percentage of the  time that was                                                                    
     ... [related  to] engineering, rather  than supervising                                                                    
     human resource issues and budgets and so forth.                                                                            
     To try  to come  up with  a proper  characterization of                                                                    
     what  one  does in  about  a  ... 33-year  professional                                                                    
     lifetime,  ... since  I graduated  from  school with  a                                                                    
     doctorate in engineering -- and  I characterize that as                                                                    
     having about  20 years that are  directly applicable to                                                                    
     the skills that are defined  in this particular role of                                                                    
     subsurface work as a functioning petroleum engineer.                                                                       
     ... In 1983  ... [and 1984], I was the  ... chairman of                                                                    
     the  local society  petroleum  [of] engineers  chapter,                                                                    
     and in  ... 1980, I  was the  vice chairman of  the San                                                                    
     Joaquin  Valley,  Bakersfield, California,  chapter  of                                                                    
     the society of petroleum engineers.   So, as a chemical                                                                    
     engineer by  degree, I have basically  worked my entire                                                                    
     career, by definition, as  a petroleum engineer working                                                                    
     in subsurface and pipeline related work.                                                                                   
CO-CHAIR FATE asked Mr. Ruedrich how  he thought he would use his                                                               
background of experience in the position of commissioner.                                                                       
Number 2337                                                                                                                     
MR. RUEDRICH  said his hope is  that [AOGCC] can be  flexible and                                                               
creative enough,  both as  a regulatory body  and as  a technical                                                               
entity,  to ensure  that new  technology  comes into  play in  an                                                               
orderly manner  in the  Alaskan oilfields,  and [that  AOGCC] has                                                               
the  opportunity  to  provide reliable  "public-sector  technical                                                               
input" to whatever  major projects might be seen  for gas offtake                                                               
from  the  North  Slope,  whether  those  are  gas-to-liquids  or                                                               
pipelines.   He  suggested  that the  future  production of  that                                                               
resource is important to the  state.  Mr. Ruedrich suggested that                                                               
[AOGCC] is an  excellent "spokesman" for the public  of Alaska in                                                               
ensuring that  is reinforced  by the  state government  by people                                                               
who  have  long-term  continuing positions  as  commissioners  at                                                               
Number 2397                                                                                                                     
CO-CHAIR FATE  asked Mr. Ruedrich  if he believed being  the head                                                               
of  a  major  political  party   would  have  an  effect  on  his                                                               
performance as a commissioner.                                                                                                  
MR. RUEDRICH, in response, said absolutely not.                                                                                 
Number 2441                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  LYNN made  a motion  to move  the nominations  of                                                               
Sarah  Palin  and  Randy  Ruedrich  to the  Alaska  Oil  and  Gas                                                               
Conservation   Commission  forward   to  the   full  bodies   for                                                               
consideration.   There being no  objection, the  confirmations of                                                               
Sarah  Palin and  Randy  Ruedrich were  advanced  from the  House                                                               
Resources Standing Committee.                                                                                                   
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:03 p.m.                                                                 

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