Legislature(1997 - 1998)

04/10/1997 01:15 PM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                         April 10, 1997                                        
                           1:15 p.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman                                       
 Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman                                        
 Representative Fred Dyson                                                     
 Representative Joe Green                                                      
 Representative William K. ("Bill") Williams                                   
 Representative Reggie Joule                                                   
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair                                      
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 Representative Irene Nicholia                                                 
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 HOUSE BILL NO. 198                                                            
 "An Act relating to regional dive fishery development associations            
 and to dive fishery management assessments; and providing for an              
 effective date."                                                              
      - MOVED CSHB 198(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                   
 CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 7(RLS) am                                              
 "An Act reducing certain resident sport fishing, hunting, and                 
 trapping license fees, increasing certain nonresident sport fishing           
 license and tag fees, and relating to nonresident sport fishing and           
 hunting licenses and tags; and providing for an effective date."              
      - MOVED HCS CSSB 7(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                 
 SENATE BILL NO. 19 am                                                         
 "An Act relating to enforcement of federal laws relating to fish              
 and game; and repealing the power and duty of the commissioner of             
 Fish and Game to assist in the enforcement of federal laws relating           
 to fish and game."                                                            
      - HEARD AND HELD                                                         
 (* First public hearing)                                                      
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  HB 198                                                               
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) WILLIAMS, Hudson, Kookesh,                      
 Grussendorf, Elton                                                            
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 03/14/97       668    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 03/14/97       668    (H)   FSH, RESOURCES                                    
 04/09/97              (H)   FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 04/09/97              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 04/10/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 BILL:  SB 7                                                                 
 SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) DONLEY, Sharp                                          
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 01/03/97        15    (S)   PREFILE RELEASED 1/3/97                           
 01/13/97        15    (S)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/13/97        15    (S)   RES, FIN                                          
 01/29/97              (S)   RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205                 
 01/29/97              (S)   MINUTE(RES)                                       
 02/03/97              (S)   RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205                 
 02/03/97              (S)   MINUTE(RES)                                       
 02/06/97       246    (S)   RES RPT  CS  3DP 2NR   NEW TITLE                  
 02/06/97       246    (S)   DP:  HALFORD, GREEN, SHARP                        
 02/06/97       246    (S)   NR:  LEMAN, LINCOLN                               
 02/06/97       246    (S)   FISCAL NOTES TO SB & CS (F&G-2)                   
 02/11/97       283    (S)   CORRECTED ZERO FN TO SB (DPS)                     
 02/11/97       283    (S)   ZERO FN TO CS (DPS)                               
 02/18/97              (S)   FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                 
 02/25/97       491    (S)   FIN RPT  CS  2DP 5NR   NEW TITLE                  
 02/25/97       492    (S)   DP: SHARP, DONLEY; NR: ADAMS, PARNELL             
 02/25/97       492    (S)   NR: PHILLIPS, PEARCE, TORGERSON                   
 02/25/97       492    (S)   FNS TO CS (F&G-2)                                 
 02/25/97       492    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FNS APPLY TO CS                     
 02/26/97              (S)   RLS AT 12:30 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203                 
 02/26/97              (S)   MINUTE(RLS)                                       
 03/05/97       567    (S)   RULES TO CALENDAR W/CS  NEW TITLE 3/5             
 03/05/97       567    (S)   DP:KELLY; CALENDAR: LEMAN, TORGERSON;             
 03/04/97       567    (S)   NR:DUNCAN; DNP: TAYLOR                            
 03/04/97       567    (S)   FN TO CS (F&G)                                    
 03/04/97       567    (S)   PREVIOUS FN ( F&G)                                
 03/04/97       567    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FN APPLIES TO CS (DPS)              
 03/05/97       575    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                              
 03/05/97       575    (S)   RLS  CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                      
 03/05/97       575    (S)   ADVANCED TO THIRD READING                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 03/05/97       575    (S)   READ THE THIRD TIME  CSSB 8(RLS)                  
 03/05/97       576    (S)   PASSED Y17 N3                                     
 03/05/97       576    (S)   EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE                 
 03/05/97       576    (S)   MACKIE  NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION                 
 03/06/97       604    (S)   RECON TAKEN UP    IN THIRD READING                
 03/06/97       604    (S)   RETURN TO SECOND FOR AM 1                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 03/06/97       605    (S)   AM NO  1    OFFERED BY MACKIE                     
 03/06/97       605    (S)   AM NO  1    ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                  
 03/06/97       605    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 03/06/97       606    (S)   PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y17 N3                  
 03/06/97       606    (S)   EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE                 
 03/06/97       606    (S)   TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                
 03/07/97       576    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 03/07/97       577    (H)   FSH, RESOURCES, FINANCE                           
 03/24/97              (H)   FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 03/24/97              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 03/26/97       848    (H)   FSH RPT  CS(FSH) 1DP 3NR                          
 03/26/97       848    (H)   DP: OGAN                                          
 03/26/97       848    (H)   NR: AUSTERMAN, IVAN, HODGINS                      
 03/26/97       848    (H)   SENATE FISCAL NOTE (F&G) 2/25/97                  
 03/26/97       848    (H)   SENATE FISCAL NOTE (F&G) 3/5/97                   
 03/26/97       848    (H)   SENATE ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DPS)                     
 04/08/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 BILL:  SB 19                                                                
 SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) SHARP, Taylor, Donley                                  
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 01/03/97        19    (S)   PREFILE RELEASED 1/3/97                           
 01/13/97        19    (S)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/13/97        19    (S)   RES, JUD                                          
 02/05/97              (S)   RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205                 
 02/05/97              (S)   MINUTE(RES)                                       
 02/06/97       247    (S)   RES RPT  6DP 1NR                                  
 02/06/97       247    (S)   DP: HALFORD, TAYLOR, TORGERSON,                   
 02/06/97       247    (S)   GREEN, SHARP;    NR:  LINCOLN                     
 02/06/97       247    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DPS)                            
 02/19/97              (S)   JUD AT 1:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                     
 02/19/97              (S)   MINUTE(JUD)                                       
 02/20/97       428    (S)   JUD RPT  3DP                                      
 02/20/97       428    (S)   DP:  TAYLOR, PARNELL, PEARCE                      
 02/20/97       428    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FN (DPS)                            
 02/21/97              (S)   RLS AT 10:45 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203                 
 02/21/97              (S)   MINUTE(RLS)                                       
 02/24/97       469    (S)   RULES TO CALENDAR & 1NR  2/24/97                  
 02/24/97       473    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                              
 02/24/97       473    (S)   AM NO  1     OFFERED BY SHARP                     
 02/24/97       473    (S)   AM NO  1     ADOPTED Y14 N5 A1                    
 02/24/97       474    (S)   ADVANCED TO THIRD READING                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 02/24/97       474    (S)   READ THE THIRD TIME  SB 19 AM                     
 02/24/97       474    (S)   COSPONSOR(S): DONLEY                              
 02/24/97       475    (S)   PASSED Y15 N4 A1                                  
 02/24/97       475    (S)   ADAMS  NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION                  
 02/25/97       502    (S)   RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP                      
 02/25/97       502    (S)   TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                
 02/26/97       478    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/26/97       478    (H)   RESOURCES, JUDICIARY                              
 04/10/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 KYLE JOHANSEN, Legislative Administrative Assistant                           
    to Representative Bill Williams                                            
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 424                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-3424                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented sponsor statement for HB 198.                  
 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison                                              
 Office of the Commissioner                                                    
 Department of Fish and Game                                                   
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, Alaska  99802-5526                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 465-6143                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided department's position and answered              
                      questions regarding HB 198.                              
 EDWARD T. GRAY                                                                
 147 Price, Number C                                                           
 Sitka, Alaska  99835                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 747-7888                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 LARRY TRANI, President                                                        
 Alaska Harvest Divers Association                                             
 2008 Halibut Point Road                                                       
 Sitka, Alaska  99835                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 747-8114                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 GEORGE ELIASON                                                                
 102 Kuhnle                                                                    
 Sitka, Alaska  99835                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 747-6817                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 JAMES R. DENNIS                                                               
 P.O. Box 591                                                                  
 Craig, Alaska  99921                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 826-3010                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 RICHARD POLLEN, Plant Manager                                                 
 Norquest Seafoods, Incorporated                                               
 P.O. Box 138                                                                  
 Craig, Alaska  99921                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 826-3556                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198 on behalf of              
                      Norquest and as a city council member.                   
 LINDA SLITER                                                                  
 428 Bawden                                                                    
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 225-7188                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 198.                       
 MELINDA WEST                                                                  
 P.O. Box 9493                                                                 
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 723-5022                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 198; suggested             
                      amendments in the event it passes.                       
 STERLING SLITER, President                                                    
 Alaska Harvest Divers Association                                             
 428 Bawden                                                                    
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 198.                                     
 RODNEY LINTON                                                                 
 852 Harding                                                                   
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 225-3025                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 198.                                     
 JACK SHAY, Mayor                                                              
 Ketchikan Gateway Borough                                                     
 344 Front Street                                                              
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99801                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 225-7429                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 PATRICK LAWS                                                                  
 P.O. Box 9270                                                                 
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 225-4293                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 198 as written.            
 RAY CAMPBELL                                                                  
 P.O. Box 23216                                                                
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 247-3626                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 198.                       
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 HARLEY ETHELBAH                                                               
 P.O. Box 972                                                                  
 Petersburg, Alaska  99833                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 772-2390                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198, with                     
 STEPHEN LaCROIX, Dive Program                                                 
 Norquest Seafoods, Incorporated                                               
 P.O. Box 6092                                                                 
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 247-5686/225-6664                                           
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 GIG DECKER, President                                                         
 Wrangell Harvest Divers Association                                           
 P.O. Box 2138                                                                 
 Wrangell, Alaska  99929                                                       
 Telephone:  (907) 874-3110                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 AARON J. CUMMINS                                                              
 P.O. Box 949                                                                  
 Petersburg, Alaska  99833                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 772-3409                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 CLAY BEZENEK, President                                                       
 Southeast Alaska Harvest Divers Association                                   
 P.O. Box 6464                                                                 
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 225-3738                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 198.                          
 KAREN BRAND, Legislative Assistant                                            
    to Senator Dave Donley                                                     
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 508                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-3892                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented sponsor's position on SB 7.                    
 JOHN GLASS, Colonel, Director                                                 
 Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection                                      
 Department of Public Safety                                                   
 5700 East Tudor Road                                                          
 Anchorage, Alaska  99507-1225                                                 
 Telephone:  (907) 269-5509                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided department's position and answered              
                      questions regarding SB 7 and SB 19.                      
 JOSEPHINE HARDY, Legislative Secretary                                        
    to Senator Bert Sharp                                                      
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 516                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-3004                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented sponsor statement on SB 19.                    
 GEORGE UTERMOHLE, Attorney                                                    
 Legislative Legal and Research Services                                       
 Legislative Affairs Agency                                                    
 130 Seward Street, Suite 409                                                  
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-2450                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided department's position and answered              
                      questions regarding SB 19.                               
 DICK BISHOP, Executive Director                                               
 Alaska Outdoor Council                                                        
 211 Fourth Street, Number 302A                                                
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 463-3830                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of SB 19.                           
 PAULA TERRELL, Researcher                                                     
    for Representative Irene Nicholia                                          
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 409                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-6858                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on behalf of Tanana Chiefs                     
                      Conference in opposition to SB 19.                       
 DALE BONDURANT                                                                
 HC1, Box 1197                                                                 
 Soldotna, Alaska  99669                                                       
 Telephone:  (907) 262-0818                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of SB 19.                           
 RICHARD ANDREW                                                                
 P.O. Box 7211                                                                 
 Ketchikan, Alaska  99901                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 225-2463                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of SB 19.                           
 TAPE 97-40, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 0001                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON called the House Resources Standing                   
 Committee meeting to order at 1:15 p.m.  Members present at the               
 call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Dyson, Green and             
 Williams; there was a quorum.  Representative Joule arrived at 1:18           
 p.m.  Representatives Masek, Barnes and Nicholia were absent.                 
 [The first minute of tape is blank due to teleconference                      
 malfunction.  Co-Chairman Hudson called an at-ease at 1:16 p.m.  He           
 called the meeting back to order at 1:17 p.m.]                                
 HB 198 - DIVE FISHERY MANAGEMENT ASSN. & ASSESSMNT                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON announced the first order of business was House            
 Bill No. 198, "An Act relating to regional dive fishery development           
 associations and to dive fishery management assessments; and                  
 providing for an effective date."  Before the committee was the               
 original version of the bill.  Although a committee substitute had            
 been voted out of the House Special Committee on Fisheries, that              
 version had not been read across the House floor.                             
 Number 0115                                                                   
 KYLE JOHANSEN, Legislative Administrative Assistant to                        
 Representative Bill Williams, read the sponsor statement into the             
 "Southeast Alaska dive fishermen have been attempting for the past            
 decade to establish orderly, consistent and stable fisheries                  
 capable of providing dependable economic opportunity for                      
 themselves, their families and the communities of Southeast.  The             
 urgency to create an economically viable fishery is highlighted by            
 the recent closure of the region's largest employer and the other             
 related negative economic impacts on the economy of Southeast                 
 "Substantial untapped dive fishery resources have been identified             
 through diver and Fish and Game underwater activities for over a              
 decade.  Many of the Southeast communities have placed the                    
 development of the dive fishery as a priority item in economic                
 development documents and locally developed legislative budget                
 priorities.  The dive fishery resources appear to be abundant and             
 diverse throughout the region.  The small sea cucumber and geoduck            
 fisheries in Southeast have a combined annual ex-vessel value of $2           
 million to $2.5 million.                                                      
 "In California, the urchin fishery has ranged in ex-vessel value              
 from $16 million to $39 million annually from 1990 to 1996.                   
 Geoducks range in price from $6/pound live to $3.50/pound                     
 processed.  Alaskan waters contain abundant amounts of these                  
 fishery resources plus many others not currently harvested.  This             
 legislation will encourage the identification and development of              
 these resources.  The potential for future jobs for harvesters,               
 processors and the support industries is considerable.                        
 "The commitment to work together with Fish and Game is evidenced in           
 the red sea urchin fishery.  In 1996, the Alaska Department of Fish           
 and Game, after a test fishery, was unable to open the red sea                
 urchin fishery because of a lack of funding.  Based on positive               
 results in this test fishery and a vision to diversify and develop            
 their local economy, the Ketchikan Gateway Borough provided funding           
 to Fish and Game to conduct bio-assessment surveys needed to open             
 a fishery.                                                                    
 "The Borough continued its involvement by facilitating and                    
 participating in a local task force comprised of Borough personnel,           
 divers, processors and the department.  The resulting plan was for            
 processors to `forward fund' the management costs of the fishery,             
 with agreements to recoup their funding through a 5 cents/pound               
 assessment on the divers.  Thus, in January 1997, a red sea urchin            
 fishery opened in districts 1 through 4 in the Ketchikan and Craig            
 "This temporary fishery opening is based on a one-time source of              
 funding that will expire at the end of this fiscal year, June 30,             
 1997.  In order to continue this fishery and to develop the other             
 dive fishery resources, a stable source of funding is necessary.              
 "The August 1996 red urchin management plan states:  `Developing a            
 long-term program to fund the costs of stock assessment, research             
 and management remains an outstanding issue.  If sufficient funds             
 are not provided to the department each year, the fishery will not            
 open.'  This is the dilemma divers face, and House Bill 198                   
 provides a creative and progressive vehicle to move towards that              
 "House Bill 198 does not mandate but allows the creation of                   
 regional dive fishery development associations for the purpose of             
 developing dive fisheries and creates a working relationship                  
 between the divers and the Department of Fish and Game to develop             
 annual operating plans.  This legislation is permissive, and once             
 a regional association is formed, divers can hold a ballot election           
 of all [interim-use] permit holders to answer two questions:                  
 First, shall we assess ourselves?  And second, at what rate shall             
 we assess ourselves?                                                          
 "If approved by election, divers would be assessed, the state would           
 collect, and the legislature may appropriate the assessment back to           
 ADF&G.  The appropriation will be based on the mutually developed             
 annual operating budget and plan.  Fish and Game would then fund              
 the specific purposes outlined in the legislation for the regional            
 dive fishery development association and the Fish and Game.                   
 "All the appropriate checks and balances are in place, and all the            
 parties are held accountable.  In addition, all other fisheries               
 business taxes are collected and deposited into the general fund.             
 "House Bill 198 is a positive step forward by the private sector to           
 support economic development and diversification without seeking a            
 general fund appropriation.  Time is of the essence.                          
 Representative Williams would appreciate your support of this                 
 legislation for passage this session, and keep the economic                   
 development for Southeast moving forward."                                    
 Number 0505                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS advised that committee packets include           
 letters of support from the City of Craig, City of Wrangell and               
 City and Borough of Sitka, as well as from the Sitka Chamber of               
 Commerce, Wrangell Fisheries Incorporated, Sitka Sound Seafoods,              
 Norquest Seafoods, Incorporated, the Seafood Producers Cooperative            
 and others.                                                                   
 Number 0556                                                                   
 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison, Office of the Commissioner,                 
 Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), came forward to testify,                 
 noting he had also testified the previous day before the House                
 Special Committee on Fisheries.  He indicated the committee                   
 substitute, voted out of that committee but not read across the               
 House floor, had contained changes requested by the ADF&G.                    
 Number 0601                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON advised that the committee needed to adopt as a            
 work draft version 0-LS0415\T, Utermohle, 4/9/97.                             
 Number 0671                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON made a motion to adopt that as a work               
 draft.  There being no objection, 0-LS0415\T, Utermohle, 4/9/97 was           
 before the committee.                                                         
 Number 0695                                                                   
 MR. BRUCE discussed changes made at the ADF&G's request.  The                 
 sponsor had agree to two changes, incorporated in this version, and           
 a third was still under discussion.                                           
 MR. BRUCE referred to page 2, lines 4 through 7.  He said the first           
 change relates to composition of the board of directors of the dive           
 association.  The ADF&G believes its representation should reflect            
 all stakeholders involved in development of the resource, not just            
 harvesters.  The sponsor agrees with this change.                             
 MR. BRUCE referred to page 8, line 7.  He said the second change              
 relates to the annual operating plan.  The earlier version had the            
 dive association responsible for writing the fishery's annual                 
 operating plan, with the ADF&G assisting.  The ADF&G believes                 
 actual management and development of the management plan should be            
 by public officials with no vested interest in the fishery; for               
 good reason, it is done that way in all fisheries.  Under the new             
 version, the ADF&G will develop the plan with cooperation,                    
 assistance and input from the industry.  The sponsor agrees to                
 Number 0871                                                                   
 MR. BRUCE provided general comments on the bill.  The ADF&G is very           
 interested in developing these under-utilized resources.  These               
 resources offer an opportunity not only for economic development              
 but also for Alaska to build a new fisheries model that does not              
 suffer from problems associated with more historic fisheries.  The            
 latter were developed largely by outside interests, not necessarily           
 with a maximum concern for benefits to Alaskans.  This offers an              
 opportunity for Alaska to start over again, at least on these                 
 fisheries, and do it right.                                                   
 MR. BRUCE said questions about the big picture relate to sustained            
 yield, preventing overharvest, preventing boom-and-bust cycles and            
 ensuring maximum benefits to Alaskans and communities.  There is              
 certainly less benefit if the state goes to great efforts to                  
 develop these resources and then most benefits leave the state.               
 MR. BRUCE said unfortunately, the timing of opportunities to                  
 develop these resources coincides with reduced general fund                   
 appropriations to the ADF&G.  To develop a new fishery, the ADF&G             
 must remove money from an existing one.  Hence, the introduction of           
 HB 198.  The sponsor is looking for some way to provide a source of           
 funding for development of new fisheries that does not subtract               
 resources from management of existing fisheries.                              
 Number 1011                                                                   
 MR. BRUCE does not believe, however, that this bill alone will                
 accomplish that.  Program receipts, such as these, are generally              
 considered by the legislature as part of the general fund                     
 appropriation for the department.  If additional program receipt              
 funds flow into the ADF&G's general fund appropriation, funds from            
 elsewhere would be eliminated.  Divers could justifiably claim they           
 expect their fishery to go forward with these funds because they              
 are coming forward to tax themselves.                                         
 MR. BRUCE suggested one way to deal with this issue.  The                     
 designated program receipt bill, introduced by the Governor in both           
 the House and the Senate, establishes designated program receipts             
 as an "other fund" category, rather than a general fund category.             
 If that passes, Mr. Bruce believes the objectives of HB 198 would             
 be achieved.                                                                  
 Number 1122                                                                   
 MR. BRUCE discussed the second concern, which relates to the big              
 picture and the chance to develop Alaska's new fisheries the right            
 way.  The bill is a funding mechanism.  The ADF&G believes                    
 additional issues should be addressed now.  Five years down the               
 road, they do not want to end up with the same structure as they              
 have in some older fisheries from which Alaskans are not receiving            
 maximum benefits.  A number of species with development potential             
 are not currently being developed.  Some are dive resources, some             
 are not.  Mr. Bruce cited octopus as an example.  The ADF&G is                
 looking for a mechanism to address broader public policy issues               
 underlying and guiding development of these new fisheries, which              
 would apply to a variety of species statewide.                                
 MR. BRUCE acknowledged that is not the sponsor's intention.  He               
 said the ADF&G applauds what Representative Williams is trying to             
 do.  Unfortunately, even in early development of the urchin fishery           
 the ADF&G is seeing all-too-familiar characteristics of the older             
 fisheries' development model.  Increasing product is already                  
 leaving the state, which concerns them.                                       
 Number 1247                                                                   
 MR. BRUCE discussed the third change the ADF&G seeks.  They suggest           
 launching a public/private task force or working group to examine             
 policy issues and possible or existing models.  They expect that to           
 take one or two years.  At the end of that time, they want to                 
 revisit this whole issue, including how the funding mechanism is              
 working and how it ties in with the bigger policy issues.  For that           
 reason, they request a sunset on the bill.                                    
 MR. BRUCE said this new approach deserves an opportunity.  However,           
 the ADF&G has concerns about an individual fishery believing they             
 are funding a particular management program, rather than having               
 funds go into the broad base of government and then being part of             
 the legislature's general appropriation to the department.                    
 Although the sense of ownership fishermen may feel over the                   
 management and managers may work all right, it may cause problems.            
 The ADF&G, through the sunset provision, would come back and make             
 sure this serves the public interest and is not causing                       
 inadvertent, undesired consequences.                                          
 MR. BRUCE stated that the ADF&G sees this as an interim funding               
 approach that may become permanent.  Another reason for revisiting            
 the issue is that it may serve as a precedent for other fisheries             
 Alaskans may want to develop.  Furthermore, if it works for new               
 fisheries, people in existing fisheries may also want it.                     
 Number 1462                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS agreed this is a new approach and that                
 other fisheries may be interested in such a concept.  However, he             
 does not support a sunset clause.  If it does not work, the                   
 legislature can change it later.  He asked for input from the                 
 Number 1589                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked whether there is a sunset on the Northern            
 Southeast Regional Aquaculture Association (NSRAA), for example.              
 MR. BRUCE said no.  He noted, however, that during the hatchery               
 forums, people had felt maybe there should have been.                         
 Number 1608                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON advised there is a sunset on the Alaska Seafood            
 Marketing Institute (ASMI) 1 percent salmon marketing tax.  He                
 stated the belief that a small, emerging fishery such as this would           
 receive "enough daylight and hard looks" because it is new and                
 exotic.  He applauded participants in the fishing industry in                 
 general for putting their money up.  He does not take a firm                  
 position that a sunset is necessary.                                          
 Number 1648                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN concurred.  He also agreed that if                   
 something is not working or needs modified, that can be done either           
 through regulation or the legislative process.                                
 Number 1725                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether Mr. Bruce envisions that some              
 control through bag limits or seasonal limits may be required.                
 MR. BRUCE replied that the fishery is managed on a quota basis,               
 based on inventory and assessment of the resource and what it can             
 maintain as a sustained yield.                                                
 Number 1743                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether some sea urchins would be                  
 brought to the surface to extract roe and whether that falls under            
 the category of "roe stripping."                                              
 MR. BRUCE said the roe is the edible, marketable part of the                  
 product.  To his knowledge, it is the only part currently sold.               
 Prices quoted earlier were for roe.                                           
 Number 1781                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether somehow the ADF&G would be able            
 to determine that by extracting roe, the fishery would not be                 
 MR. BRUCE said yes.                                                           
 Number 1788                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether there are possible alternate               
 methods, such as robot arms or urchin pots, or whether this would             
 always remain a dive fishery.                                                 
 MR. BRUCE said someone testified the previous day about experiments           
 with alternative harvest methods for sea urchins.  The dive method,           
 successful in other parts of the country, has been what the                   
 industry has focused on; Mr. Bruce assumes that is the best way.              
 Number 1824                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether the ADF&G or the sponsor has               
 checked to see how this would affect other fisheries such as                  
 MR. BRUCE said as part of the ADF&G's assessment and inventory, to            
 some extent it looks at relationships between different species.              
 They do not believe there are detrimental affects on other                    
 resources such as crab as a result of harvesting urchins.                     
 Number 1862                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON suggested divers could provide the department              
 more information, from a management perspective, than currently               
 Number 1880                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked whether the ADF&G would encourage, if              
 not require, that kind of feedback from divers.                               
 MR. BRUCE replied that he believes that is the principal idea in              
 this cooperative relationship.                                                
 Number 1960                                                                   
 EDWARD T. GRAY testified via teleconference from Sitka.  A diver              
 and member of the Alaska Harvest Divers Association, he deferred to           
 the sponsor statement for the many reasons why he supports the                
 bill.  He had ten years of experience meeting with a string of                
 ADF&G officials in unsuccessful bids to secure funds.  He said the            
 first allocations in Sitka happened around 1989.  Since then, there           
 have been closures and reduced quotas while large quantities of               
 unharvested products have gone unutilized year after year because             
 of inability to secure funds.                                                 
 MR. GRAY said they are committed to the association concept.  It              
 contains the "appropriate checks" to provide security to the                  
 divers.  He has no philosophical preference about who should pay or           
 why.  He is happy with the 3 percent salmon tax, both in what it              
 has done for him and the salmon fleet.  Mr. Gray concluded by                 
 thanking the sponsor and saying he has renewed hope of going                  
 forward because of this bill.                                                 
 Number 2043                                                                   
 LARRY TRANI, President, Alaska Harvest Divers Association,                    
 testified via teleconference from Sitka.  His association,                    
 representing about 50 divers in the area, unanimously supports HB
 198.  He pointed out that for years, divers have requested that               
 ADF&G expand various dive fisheries or open new ones.  The answer             
 has always been that there is not enough money in the ADF&G budget            
 to meet those requests.  Now, the ADF&G is facing budget cuts.                
 Requests will only be met if the industry comes forward with the              
 money.  Although naturally members would prefer that the state pick           
 up the tab to develop fisheries, because that is unlikely to happen           
 in the near future, they urge passage of the committee substitute             
 for HB 198.                                                                   
 Number 2105                                                                   
 GEORGE ELIASON testified via teleconference from Sitka.  A lifelong           
 fisherman, he has been diving 20 to 30 years.  He supports HB 198             
 on behalf of himself, his two sons and the two divers he works                
 with.  It will provide a long-term, economically viable dive                  
 fishery for his region.  He believes these renewable resources will           
 remain unharvested without such a bill, which would be unfortunate            
 for divers, processors, deck hands, consumers and support services.           
 This sounds like a win-win situation, and Southeast Alaska needs              
 the jobs.                                                                     
 Number 2178                                                                   
 JAMES R. DENNIS testified via teleconference from Craig in support            
 of the bill.  Although there is no dive organization there, he                
 believes he can speak for a major portion of the area's divers.               
 While nobody wants to think they are paying more than their share,            
 this is realistic in light of budget cuts.                                    
 Number 2247                                                                   
 RICHARD POLLEN, Plant Manager, Norquest Seafoods, Incorporated,               
 testified via teleconference from Craig, specifying he is also a              
 member of the city council.  He said as a processor in Craig, he              
 fully supports the bill.  Norquest is currently involved in the sea           
 urchin fishery.  Employing 35 people, they contribute $2,500 per              
 day in payroll to the community, providing jobs that would                    
 otherwise not be there.  At any given time, they have five to                 
 twelve divers working for them, each with a deck hand on board.               
 MR. POLLEN, speaking as a city council member, advised that the               
 City of Craig had voted unanimously to contribute start-up money in           
 one way or another.  He said this fishery offers the city revenue             
 in the form of a fish tax, which is sorely needed.                            
 Number 2316                                                                   
 LINDA SLITER testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in                   
 opposition to the bill.  The wife of a diver, she is an equal                 
 partner in the Linda Lou (ph), a dive vessel.  She asked where                
 start-up costs for the association would come from.  The                      
 association will need an office; equipment; travel money; an                  
 executive director, secretary and other employees; and a paid                 
 lobbyist to watch-dog the budget yearly to ensure money collected             
 goes to the dive fisheries.  She asked:  If the proposed                      
 association goes to the state loan fund for an operation's loan,              
 who would pay it back?  She further asked whether divers would                
 start out "in the red" with a loan to repay before any money can be           
 appropriated for management.                                                  
 MS. SLITER said the association sounds like an expensive layer of             
 bureaucracy between divers and the ADF&G.  If the bill passes, an             
 association forms, and an election is held to determine the amount            
 of assessment, she said it would take at least two years before tax           
 proceeds find their way into the ADF&G budget.  She asked who will            
 foot the bill until that tax is a reality.                                    
 MS. SLITER had heard rumors that the proposed association would               
 seek disaster fund money given to Southeast communities by the                
 federal government.  Convincing communities to fund an association            
 whose goals are extremely unclear will be a battle all its own.               
 Once salmon, herring, crab and shrimp fisheries find out about                
 this, participants will demand their fair share of the disaster               
 fund money from their communities.  She asked whether it is the job           
 of communities to fund fisheries programs managed by the ADF&G.               
 MS. SLITER finds it hard to believe a state with no need for a                
 state income tax, and which distributes millions of dollars to                
 residents yearly through permanent fund dividends, cannot come up             
 with $300,000 to fund a multimillion-dollar fishery.  A self-                 
 imposed tax for management of a fishery is precedent-setting.  She            
 asked when participants in other fisheries would be requested to              
 fund management of their fisheries as well.                                   
 MS. SLITER noted that she has worked for the Southern Southeast               
 Regional Aquaculture Association for 18 years.  They are partially            
 funded by a 3 percent tax self-imposed by the fishermen of                    
 Southeast Alaska.                                                             
 TAPE 97-40, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 0006                                                                   
 MS. SLITER concluded by saying the sea urchin fishery is able to              
 become one of the highest revenue-generating industries in Alaska.            
 It would be economically unsound for the state not to fund the                
 fishery once it is established and paying the 3 percent raw fish              
 tax.  She urged delay of HB 198 until all avenues of state funding            
 have been exhausted and all fisheries are being managed equitably.            
 Number 0064                                                                   
 MELINDA WEST testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in                   
 opposition to HB 198.  A harvest diver, she spoke on behalf of                
 herself, her husband and 40 other divers who had signed a petition            
 against the bill.  They believe it is unconstitutional and                    
 discriminatory against one user group.  A tax amounting to 14                 
 percent would be required to manage and enforce the fishery and               
 support the dive association attached to the bill.  Ms. West said             
 dive fisheries will pay a 3 percent raw fish tax next year.  They             
 will therefore pay for management of the fishery twice.  If dive              
 fisheries expand and stabilize, the 3 percent tax would generate              
 more than enough revenue to make the fishery self-sustaining.                 
 Number 0116                                                                   
 MS. WEST suggested modifications in the event the bill passes.                
 First, the "user pay" tax should be across-the-board for all                  
 fisheries.  Second, the cooperative management statement, which               
 "fooled all the divers on this bill to start with," should be put             
 back in.  Third, the ability to use the tax for dive association              
 management should be eliminated; she believes those should be                 
 separate issues.                                                              
 MS. WEST also wants to delete the requirement that divers must have           
 bought and paid for their permits 90 days before being allowed to             
 vote.  Many divers cannot afford permits until the day before they            
 fish, and many are fronted money to do so.  The present scheme                
 would not provide good representation for the vote on the tax.                
 MS. WEST said furthermore, the tax should be dedicated.  She                  
 stated, "We would support this tax on those grounds, because we are           
 not opposed to supporting our fishery.  We are opposed to this bill           
 as it is written."  She specified they do not want to pay a                   
 lobbyist $50,000 per year to get their money back through the                 
 general fund.  "I think this is the biggest flaw of this bill, is             
 that general fund," she added.                                                
 Number 0161                                                                   
 MS. WEST suggested if they pay for management, they have the right            
 to call the shots.  This must be cooperative management, and they             
 would be looking at competitive bids for management, as perhaps               
 someone else could do it for better and cheaper than the ADF&G.               
 MS. WEST concluded by saying no consideration should be given to              
 any unproven method of self-taxation that singles out a certain               
 user group to fund management by the ADF&G.  She referred to the              
 previous day's hearing, where someone had "pointed out the $60                
 million that comes in on the raw fish tax, and only $20 million of            
 it comes back."  She feels this is a bit of mismanagement.                    
 Number 0222                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON referred to dedicated funds and said in his                
 experience with the legislature, that is impossible without a                 
 constitutional amendment.  He asked that Ms. West fax her proposed            
 amendments to the committee.                                                  
 Number 0264                                                                   
 STERLING SLITER, President, Alaska Harvest Divers Association,                
 testified via teleconference from Ketchikan.  A member of the sea             
 urchin task force, he has worked with the ADF&G since the inception           
 of this concept.  He said Geron Bruce echoes their concerns                   
 regarding collected taxes going into the general fund.  For this              
 reason, as written, they cannot support the bill.  Not opposed to             
 taxing themselves if necessary, they believe there must be a                  
 mechanism that would allow taxes generated by divers to go back               
 into their industry.                                                          
 Number 0295                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON commented that over the years, the legislature             
 has made diligent efforts to ensure that assessments collected from           
 the NSRAA and others go back to appropriate areas; this applies as            
 well to ASMI and to the raw fish tax that generally supports the              
 industry.  He said there is a moral commitment on his part, and he            
 believes also on the part of his colleagues, that if they collect             
 the tax for this particular purpose, they would do their level best           
 to guarantee it goes back to the ADF&G for the management, growth             
 and development of that industry.                                             
 Number 0333                                                                   
 RODNEY LINTON testified via teleconference from Ketchikan.  A                 
 harvest diver, he supports HB 198 but is concerned about changes in           
 the committee substitute, including deletion of cooperative                   
 management terms.  Although supportive of having a way to                     
 supplement state funding for the fishery, he does not believe they            
 should have to fund the whole thing.  He also likes the idea of               
 this mechanism to develop new dive fisheries such as for clams,               
 scallops or octopus.  Mr. Linton wants the tax funds to be                    
 designated for the dive fishery, as in the designated program                 
 receipts bill he has been hearing about.  He asked the number of              
 that bill.                                                                    
 Number 0391                                                                   
 MR. BRUCE said HB 78 and SB 55.                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON agreed program receipts ought to be designated             
 to the extent possible.  He said he wishes to see changes to                  
 differentiate between monies collected generally and those                    
 collected for specific purposes.                                              
 Number 0426                                                                   
 JACK SHAY, Mayor, Ketchikan Gateway Borough, testified via                    
 teleconference.  The previous Monday, the assembly had voted                  
 unanimously to authorize him to send a letter in support of HB 198.           
 In talking with dive harvesters and processors, they had been                 
 impressed with the excellent economic opportunity, which would help           
 in part to rescue the area's economy.  Until the timber industry is           
 healthy again, they look forward to having a healthy dive fishery.            
 MAYOR SHAY advised that the only resistance they had heard was from           
 a few divers who believe they should not be assessed because the              
 ADF&G should do this.  In addition, the Kake Tribal Corporation               
 gave a presentation in Juneau the previous week, citing the fact              
 that processing occurs outside Alaska.  He said, similar to the               
 timber industry, until an enterprise can be guaranteed or be more             
 certain, people would not make a capital investment towards local             
 processing.  He noted that local processors have been processing              
 urchin roe.  However, a certain amount of expertise needs to be               
 built in to enhance the product and make it more cost-effective for           
 foreign markets.                                                              
 MAYOR SHAY said that "the proposals that have been made for                   
 amending the measure seem to be perfectly reasonable; as a matter             
 of fact, I like very much the inclusion of a local government                 
 involvement in the board of directors, and also the other proposal            
 seems to be perfectly acceptable here."  He urged passage of the              
 bill, saying the borough is fully committed to assisting in this              
 new enterprise.                                                               
 Number 0550                                                                   
 PATRICK LAWS testified via teleconference from Ketchikan,                     
 specifying he dives off the vessel Mach-I.  He opposes the bill as            
 currently written.  He cannot believe the state cannot come up with           
 a little money to help fund this fishery.                                     
 Number 0592                                                                   
 RAY CAMPBELL testified via teleconference from Ketchikan, saying he           
 is a harvest diver statewide.  He opposes HB 198.  The previous               
 year at this time, a moratorium had been placed on dive fisheries.            
 He was cut out under the moratorium but qualified as a dungeness              
 diver, in a fishery with three people in it.  Now, there is a bill            
 to tax him to help develop fisheries that do not even include him.            
 He believes that is wrong.  He further believes it is wrong to lump           
 all dive fisheries and try to manage four or five fisheries as one.           
 He suggested if there are problems with the urchin fishery, they              
 should come up with a bill taxing that fishery for itself.                    
 MR. CAMPBELL said he had called the sponsor's office twice in the             
 past month to ask why the dungeness dive fishery was included in              
 this bill.  He noted it was not included in the moratorium bill.              
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked for Mr. Campbell's phone number and             
 said he would contact him.                                                    
 Number 0704                                                                   
 HARLEY ETHELBAH testified via teleconference from Petersburg.  A              
 diver and statewide fisherman, he said this should be looked at as            
 a whole, for other fisheries as well.  He has participated in the             
 geoduck fishery for five years and has been working with the ADF&G            
 to try to expand that.  After five years, it is obvious to him that           
 the ADF&G does not have the money to do the surveys and expand it.            
 He sees HB 198 as a great opportunity for these fisheries.                    
 MR. ETHELBAH believes cooperative management should be included in            
 the bill, as it once was.  Divers could work with the ADF&G in the            
 surveys, as they are trained in looking for geoducks, urchins and             
 so forth.  Referring to the requirement that permit fees be paid              
 before voting, he said, "I think that's great that that's in the              
 bill, because it means that serious divers will be voting, and                
 those not willing to pay their permit fees won't be voting."                  
 Number 0811                                                                   
 STEPHEN LaCROIX, Dive Program, Norquest Seafoods, Incorporated,               
 came forward to testify.  He runs the dive program for Norquest,              
 which has processing plants in Craig, Petersburg and Ketchikan.  In           
 the recent dive fishery, they took one-half million pounds of                 
 urchins, almost 20 percent of the quota.  They have employed 70               
 people full time.  It is a good fit for his company, and it                   
 transforms part-time seasonal workers into full-time employees.  He           
 noted that it requires five people on shore to service one diver in           
 the water.                                                                    
 MR. LaCROIX stated that Norquest supports HB 198 because it puts a            
 secure funding structure in place for them to make investments                
 necessary to compete with established players in the business.  He            
 said so far, they had collected over $23,000 in voluntary                     
 assessments from the divers in this business.  "And we only have              
 about $480 that remains to be collected, in other words, money that           
 was not voluntarily donated," he stated.  "So that shows the kind             
 of support that we've got from the divers that are working for us."           
 Number 0885                                                                   
 GIG DECKER, President, Wrangell Harvest Divers Association, came              
 forward to testify, noting that his association is part of                    
 Southeast Alaska Harvest Divers Association.  Wrangell has had a              
 mill closure, and people are interested in going to work, not only            
 as divers but through attracting processing and all the jobs                  
 associated with it.  He expressed excitement about the bill and               
 said he totally supports it.                                                  
 Number 0943                                                                   
 AARON J. CUMMINS came forward to testify.  A lifelong commercial              
 fisherman from Petersburg, he completely supports the bill.  He               
 believes it is ironic that for the last few years, he has left                
 town, crossing vast resources of undeveloped fisheries to work in             
 the Bering Sea and California.  He would much rather be at home.              
 He believes these fisheries can be expanded.  Right now in                    
 Petersburg there are 25 divers, who often take an additional diver            
 along.  If this fishery could be enhanced to where they earn more             
 per diver, many would gladly buy their own boats.  They could quit            
 working as deck hands for others, opening up new jobs for younger             
 people in the communities.  In addition, more boats would generate            
 additional shipyard work, and so on.  He restated his support.                
 Number 1020                                                                   
 CLAY BEZENEK, President, Southeast Alaska Harvest Divers                      
 Association, came forward to testify.  A Ketchikan resident, he has           
 fished in Alaska 15 years, and 100 percent of his income derives              
 from harvest of "creatures from the sea."  With the exception of              
 one dissenting vote, his association fully supports HB 198.  It               
 provides a reliable funding source for all developing dive                    
 fisheries, as well as a direct link for a cooperative working                 
 relationship with the ADF&G.  He noted that dive fisheries are                
 unique in that the gear used is a human being, not gillnets or                
 hooks.  He believes special consideration should be given to any              
 fishery that is "so human-interactive," and that HB 198 addresses             
 this important issue.                                                         
 MR. BEZENEK advised that they now voluntarily assess themselves for           
 management costs set forth by the ADF&G for the urchin fisheries.             
 This is not new to them.  This bill provides a tried-and-true                 
 assessment vehicle that guarantees a funding source for years to              
 come.  As a commercial salmon fisherman as well, he is completely             
 satisfied with the job the aquaculture association does with                  
 assessment dollars.  He expects to be similarly satisfied when this           
 becomes law.  It will allows businesses, both small and large, to             
 formulate business plans for processing these products.  It will              
 also allow development of new dive fisheries currently identified             
 but not bio-assessed.  He believes HB 198 is important to all                 
 Southeast Alaska towns.                                                       
 Number 1131                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked if anyone else wished to testify, then               
 closed public testimony.                                                      
 Number 1156                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS advised that he had worked with the ADF&G             
 on the cooperative management language removed from the bill.  In             
 talking with them, he understands the department will come up with            
 a plan but divers will still have a say.  He feels comfortable with           
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Geron Bruce whether that is his                      
 Number 1212                                                                   
 MR. BRUCE replied yes, they are interested in working with people             
 in the dive industry on shaping and developing the fishery.  He               
 added that the ADF&G does this kind of thing routinely.  In pretty            
 much all fisheries, there are working groups and an advisory                  
 committee system.  "We want to work with people affected by fishery           
 management and have the benefit of their knowledge and expertise in           
 shaping management," he concluded.                                            
 Number 1245                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE commented that he supports this.  He              
 cautioned, however, that in efforts to try to curtail spending, the           
 legislature should not limit development of areas that need a jump-           
 start for economic development.                                               
 Number 1316                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN said this is a statement of the                        
 legislature's support of people in Southeast Alaska in recognition            
 of mill closures.                                                             
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON acknowledged suggested amendments by testifiers            
 and said obviously the committee could not deal with amendments               
 that were not before them.  He did not intend to hold the bill.               
 However, he asked that proposals be advanced to Representative                
 Williams; if amendments would enhance the bill and maintain its               
 intentions, he suggested the sponsor would not hesitate to offer              
 those on the House floor.                                                     
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS said either on the floor or the other side.           
 Number 1396                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move the committee                      
 substitute, 0-LS0415\T, Utermohle, 4/9/97, from the committee with            
 accompanying fiscal notes and individual recommendations.  There              
 being no objection, CSHB 198(RES) moved from the House Resources              
 Standing Committee.                                                           
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON turned the gavel over to Co-Chairman Ogan for              
 the next item of business.                                                    
 Number 1436                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was CS for              
 Senate Bill No. 7(RLS) am, "An Act reducing certain resident sport            
 fishing, hunting, and trapping license fees, increasing certain               
 nonresident sport fishing license and tag fees, and relating to               
 nonresident sport fishing and hunting licenses and tags; and                  
 providing for an effective date."  Before the committee was HCS               
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to concern expressed at the previous                
 hearing over lack of a general one-year nonresident license.  He              
 advised that Representative Masek, not currently present, had                 
 provided a proposed amendment at that hearing.                                
 Number 1537                                                                   
 KAREN BRAND, Legislative Assistant to Senator Dave Donley, came               
 forward to testify.  She said if it was the committee's will to               
 remove restrictions in Section 8, Senator Donley would request that           
 the committee entertain intent language for Section 1; Ms. Brand              
 had a copy of that proposed language.                                         
 Number 1655                                                                   
 JOHN GLASS, Colonel, Director, Division of Fish and Wildlife                  
 Protection, Department of Public Safety, came forward to testify.             
 He referred to the suggestion made previously that the 14-day                 
 licenses would assist the department in determining who harvests              
 fish through sports fishing and in keeping some sort of record that           
 those were being sold.  "And I don't believe that is the case at              
 all," he stated.  "It would not help us in that manner or in that             
 direction at all."                                                            
 Number 1693                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said it had been asserted by the sponsor that it             
 would at least create a paper trail for people who continually buy            
 these licenses, allowing those people to be "flagged" as those                
 willing to continue to stay all summer and potentially keep canning           
 and preserving fish to take outside for commercial sale.                      
 COLONEL GLASS said he thinks that would be on a case-by-case basis.           
 Number 1743                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Colonel Glass to explain how they                      
 investigate those cases, what methodology they use, and what kind             
 of success they have had.                                                     
 COLONEL GLASS responded that they were receiving quite a few                  
 complaints from the Kenai River in particular.  They put people               
 under cover there last year and were able to make four cases.                 
 Three people had since pled out and one case is set to go to trial            
 April 28.  In that case, an undercover agent had purchased fish               
 from people harvesting on the Kenai, home-canning the fish and                
 selling them there.  That case had generated from a retired trooper           
 from Colonel Glass's division who purchased home-canned Alaska                
 salmon at a garage sale in Tucson or Phoenix, Arizona.                        
 Number 1813                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked how they become aware of these and whether             
 they note license numbers of people who have been there all year,             
 for example.                                                                  
 COLONEL GLASS said those largely came from complaints from Kenai              
 citizens who observed these people camped in campgrounds along                
 there.  Division personnel would drive by and take photographs.               
 For example, one photograph shows 14 cases of salmon already                  
 Number 1867                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN pointed out that it is not illegal to process 14             
 cases of salmon.  He suggested people would have to be caught                 
 selling it.                                                                   
 COLONEL GLASS affirmed that.  They had put an undercover person               
 into the campground, who was able to purchase the salmon.                     
 Number 1887                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether the cases they had made so far had             
 been where people were selling fish in campgrounds in Alaska.  He             
 explained that concern was over people financing their trips to               
 Alaska by selling salmon outside Alaska.                                      
 COLONEL GLASS said home processing develops two real concerns.                
 First, the Department of Environmental Conservation (ADEC) has a              
 concern because it could possibly be tainted.  He suggested such              
 fish sold outside Alaska could also taint the image of Alaska's               
 salmon.  He believes it is the intent of both the Administration              
 and the legislature to have a fine product.  Only one or two                  
 instances could cripple the salmon industry.                                  
 COLONEL GLASS said the other concern is that it is really not                 
 illegal for somebody to sell Alaska's home-canned salmon in                   
 Phoenix, for example, because Alaska law does not apply in Arizona.           
 He believes part of this legislation's intent is to address that.             
 Number 1976                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked whether Colonel Glass believes it would be           
 a disincentive if people had to check in for license renewal.  He             
 suggested a periodic review may cause them to feel that someone has           
 an eye on them.  He further asked whether Colonel Glass believes              
 purchasers of licenses are adequately informed about restrictions             
 on sale and the reasons why.                                                  
 COLONEL GLASS said he did not know what Co-Chairman Hudson means by           
 "checking in" those people.  As far as information given at the               
 time of sale, depending on which vendor it is, there will be a                
 different answer whenever a license is sold.  "And it causes us               
 considerable problems when we're doing these types of                         
 investigations," he said.                                                     
 COLONEL GLASS advised that most investigations regarding                      
 nonresident licenses occur after the fishing and hunting seasons,             
 usually in November or December.  Most nonresidents have long since           
 gone south by that time.                                                      
 Number 2107                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked whether there are other alternatives               
 that Colonel Glass had thought of that might get the legislature              
 where they intend to go.                                                      
 COLONEL GLASS replied that the one that he knows has been discussed           
 is setting a quota for number of fish harvested by a nonresident.             
 However, that may bring up constitutional issues and he does not              
 know where that stands.                                                       
 Number 2197                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said from Colonel Glass's testimony, he is hearing           
 that this would not necessarily be an enforcement tool but could              
 possibly be a deterrent.                                                      
 COLONEL GLASS agreed it may dissuade somebody if they must                    
 continually buy licenses.  However, as a way of keeping track, he             
 does not believe it would help the department in that regard.                 
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN suggested basically it is a judgment call on                 
 whether or not this will provide a disincentive for people to stay            
 here and fish all summer, which may have other consequences.                  
 Number 2267                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked whether Colonel Glass supports the              
 14-day maximum currently in the bill.                                         
 COLONEL GLASS replied that he does not believe the 14-day license             
 would be any additional assistance to the department.                         
 Number 2319                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked if anyone else wished to testify or if                 
 anyone had questions for the Department of Law representative in              
 the audience.  He then closed public testimony.                               
 Number 2406                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS made a motion to adopt Amendment 1,                   
 provided previously by Representative Masek, which read:                      
      Page 2, lines 16 - 28:  Delete                                           
 TAPE 97-41, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 0006                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked whether the amendment would restore the              
 general, annual nonresident fishing license at $150.                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN affirmed that.                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON said it takes away the limited criteria                    
 presently in the bill.                                                        
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said that criteria was in there for commercial               
 fishermen, related to another bill that may or may not make it                
 through the process.                                                          
 Number 0066                                                                   
 MS. BRAND advised that Senator Donley had expressed at the last               
 hearing that if it was the will of the committee to adopt such an             
 amendment, he would not oppose it.  However, if adopted, he                   
 requested consideration of his proposed intent language.                      
 Number 0133                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there was any objection to Amendment           
 1.  There being none, Amendment 1 was adopted.                                
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called a brief at-ease at 2:52.  He called the               
 meeting back to order at 2:55 p.m.                                            
 Number 0155                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS made a motion to adopt Amendment 2, offered           
 by the sponsor, which read:                                                   
      Page 1                                                                   
      Line 6                                                                   
           "*Section 1.  It is the Intent of the Legislature that              
      the fee increases for non-resident sport fishing licenses in             
      this legislation help discourage current abuses by non-                  
      residents harvesting sport-caught fish for the purpose of                
      selling them.  The legislature requests the Board of Fish                
      [sic] also address this problem and adopt a quota system to              
      limit non-residents [sic] catch of sport fish."                          
 Number 0167                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked if there was any objection.  There being               
 none, Amendment 2 was adopted.                                                
 Number 0155                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to move HCS CSSB7(FSH), as                   
 amended, from committee with attached fiscal notes and individual             
 recommendations.  He asked unanimous consent.  There being no                 
 objection, HCS CSSB7(RES) moved from the House Resources Standing             
 SB 19 am - REPEAL FED ENFORCEMENT DUTIES/F&G COMSNR                         
 Number 0269                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next item of business was Senate               
 Bill No. 19 am, "An Act relating to enforcement of federal laws               
 relating to fish and game; and repealing the power and duty of the            
 commissioner of Fish and Game to assist in the enforcement of                 
 federal laws relating to fish and game."                                      
 Number 0288                                                                   
 JOSEPHINE HARDY, Legislative Secretary to Senator Bert Sharp, read            
 the sponsor statement into the record:                                        
 "Senate Bill 19 repeals the present statutory mandate (AS                     
 16.05.050(1)) that the State of Alaska will assist the federal                
 government agencies in the enforcement of federal laws and                    
 regulations as they apply to fish and game resources in Alaska.               
 "In light of aggressive federal actions to assume management of               
 fish and game over large areas of our state in violation of our               
 statehood compact, Senator Sharp believes that repealing this                 
 statute is prudent and in the best interests of the citizens of               
 MS. HARDY added that this bill was a section of the previous year's           
 SB 77, which passed both bodies but was vetoed by the Governor.               
 Number 0420                                                                   
 GEORGE UTERMOHLE, Attorney, Legislative Legal and Research                    
 Services, Legislative Affairs Agency, came forward to answer                  
 Number 0437                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON referred to a letter dated April 8, 1997, from             
 the Department of Law.  He asked whether Mr. Utermohle believes the           
 current version of SB 19 presents any major conflict with Alaska              
 enforcement officers in the conduct of their business.                        
 Number 0490                                                                   
 MR. UTERMOHLE said he had read that letter and that the points                
 contained in that letter are valid.  To the extent that a state law           
 enforcement officer is put in an awkward position by virtue of any            
 cross-deputization received from a federal agency, this will cause            
 problems for that officer.  The burden put on the officer is                  
 determining which laws are in conflict and therefore which laws the           
 officer will be unable to assist the federal government in                    
 enforcing.  He concluded, "He's going to end up requiring to have             
 a lawyer at his side in the field."                                           
 Number 0551                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON said having been an enforcement officer himself            
 for over 20 years with the U.S. Coast Guard, where there was                  
 multiple-agency enforcement responsibility, it does put somebody in           
 a delicate situation.  He asked whether officers are sworn to                 
 uphold the federal and state constitutions, as well as the laws of            
 the state.                                                                    
 MR. UTERMOHLE said he could not say what the text of the oath is.             
 Number 0622                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked whether the intent of SB 19 is to cover            
 all land in the state of Alaska.                                              
 MR. UTERMOHLE replied yes, this is to be a law of general                     
 applicability, applicable throughout the state.                               
 Number 0651                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to the federal government taking over               
 management of Alaska's fisheries in October.  He asked whether SB
 19 would preclude Alaska's Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection           
 from enforcing fisheries laws in navigable waters.                            
 MR. UTERMOHLE replied, "At this point, I don't think anyone knows             
 what the extent of the federal takeover might be come this fall.              
 What this bill would preclude is preclude a state protection                  
 officer from assisting a federal officer in enforcing federal law             
 that is contrary, or conflicts with, a state law, that is ...                 
 equally applicable to that situation."                                        
 Number 0714                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN suggested the federal government managing Alaska's           
 fisheries is a conflict with state law.  He asked, assuming that              
 can reasonably be considered a conflict, whether state officers               
 would be precluded from doing fisheries enforcement work in                   
 navigable waters.                                                             
 MR. UTERMOHLE replied, "No, they would not be precluded from                  
 enforcing state law."  He further explained, "They will not be able           
 to assist a federal officer in enforcing a federal law that is                
 contrary to a state law that addresses that exact situation."                 
 Number 0804                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said for example, if the federal government                  
 precluded fishing but state law did not, and state officers caught            
 someone fishing in violation of the federal law, they could not,              
 under SB 19, do anything about it.  But as long as it agreed with             
 state law, they could.                                                        
 MR. UTERMOHLE agreed.  As long as the law is not in conflict with             
 a state statute, it would be enforceable by a state officer.                  
 Number 0864                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE mentioned there are different priorities in              
 MR. UTERMOHLE said at some point, different prioritizations or                
 allocations of resources would be reflected in regulations                    
 applicable on the grounds.  That is where enforcement problems                
 would arise.                                                                  
 Number 0948                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS referred to Mr. Utermohle's earlier comment           
 about needing an attorney present.                                            
 MR. UTERMOHLE said an officer will have to determine what is a                
 conflict between state and federal law in deciding whether to                 
 assist a federal officer.                                                     
 Number 1009                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether that is not usually the district               
 attorney's job, with the cop writing a ticket and the district                
 attorney looking at it.  They throw a few out and they get                    
 precedents, he said.                                                          
 MR. UTERMOHLE replied that this requires the officer in the field             
 to not assist, before any court determination.  The officer must              
 make that determination.                                                      
 Number 1041                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE suggested when that is the case, what really             
 suffers is the resources.                                                     
 Number 1073                                                                   
 JOHN GLASS, Colonel, Director, Division of Fish and Wildlife                  
 Protection, Department of Public Safety, came forward again to                
 testify on SB 19.  He said they had followed this bill since its              
 inception and had testified before the Senate about concerns.  He             
 submitted a letter from Commissioner Otte addressing the Department           
 of Public Safety's concerns; attached was a discussion with                   
 Assistant Attorney General Stephen M. White regarding some of the             
 Department of Law's concerns with this bill relating to definition            
 of "in conflict with".                                                        
 Number 1116                                                                   
 COLONEL GLASS said his agency is extremely concerned with the                 
 ability to work with federal agents in protecting resources in                
 Alaska.  He has 81 commissioned personnel to work 586,000 square              
 miles.  Taking away their ability to work with federal counterparts           
 would be counterproductive to their efforts.                                  
 COLONEL GLASS indicated various attorneys have given different                
 responses as to what conflict will be under the bill.  That also              
 concerns them a great deal.  He referred to Co-Chairman Hudson's              
 questions about a constitutional oath.  As a state trooper, he has            
 a copy of it.  He said 24 years ago, he took this oath to defend              
 and support both the federal and state constitutions.  He said that           
 oath is administered to every Alaska state trooper, both for fish             
 and wildlife and other protection.  He believes SB 19 may in fact             
 jeopardize that oath of office.                                               
 COLONEL GLASS is extremely concerned about the additional burden              
 placed on officers in the field of trying to determine what "in               
 conflict" means between state and federal laws at any given time.             
 This frequently requires federal and state judges, as well as                 
 supreme courts and courts of appeals, months to determine.  "They             
 want us to determine it on the spot, in the field, when we're                 
 working with a federal agency," he said.  "I think that puts an               
 unfair burden on my people."                                                  
 COLONEL GLASS concluded by stating he does not believe SB 19 is in            
 the best interest of the resources of Alaska, which he is here to             
 Number 1233                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON said the issue of a federal law that essentially           
 violates the state constitution places it squarely in front of the            
 courts, but it has not been fully resolved.  He stated that the               
 Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA) is in                
 conflict with Alaska's constitution.  He asked what kind of                   
 guidance Colonel Glass gives field officers in dealing with                   
 conflicts involving gray areas.                                               
 COLONEL GLASS responded, "I don't have an answer for you, because             
 I don't know what to tell them.  It is a major problem for this               
 division, absolutely, sir."                                                   
 Number 1325                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to the Babbitt court suit, which he said            
 was dropped with prejudice by this Administration.  He asked                  
 whether there were other areas this would affect.  Specifically, he           
 asked whether it would affect the Lacey Act.                                  
 COLONEL GLASS at first said that presently, it probably will not.             
 In fact, they were having a difficult time finding state laws in              
 direct conflict with federal laws, rules and regulations relating             
 to fish and game resources.  Down the road, however, some could be            
 COLONEL GLASS then acknowledged it may, in fact, affect the Lacey             
 Act.  He stated, "My fear and concern is if we quit cooperating               
 with the federal agencies, they may in turn quit cooperating with             
 us, as a retaliation, if you will."  He explained that they                   
 consistently use the Lacey Act to assist in prosecution of big game           
 guides for same-day-airborne activities, for example; those guides            
 have a far greater capability of "reaching out to the Lower 48,"              
 where most guided hunts originate.  It could possibly affect Lacey            
 Act use by the federal government, he said.                                   
 Number 1423                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the Lacey Act relates to transporting           
 game illegally taken under Alaska law across state lines.                     
 COLONEL GLASS clarified it is for game or trophies.  "And that's              
 where the Lacey Act really goes into effect, is when they do take             
 a trophy in Alaska and transport it out of the state line," he                
 said.  "That's where we use it.  All of those are misdemeanors, and           
 at the current Department of Law, they do not, or will not, even,             
 transport witnesses back up from the Lower 48 to prosecute the                
 misdemeanors.  Therefore, that's why we use the Lacey Act in that             
 regard, in order to get our prosecution on those cases."                      
 Number 1459                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said this bill, as written, would not directly               
 affect that unless it affects the relationship between the federal            
 and state authorities.                                                        
 COLONEL GLASS said that is correct, unless somewhere down the road            
 the Board of Game or legislature passes a law in conflict with the            
 Lacey Act.  It is an unknown.  "And I believe that's really what              
 our concern is because most of this bill is unknown, to what effect           
 it will have on us," he concluded.                                            
 Number 1498                                                                   
 DICK BISHOP, Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council, came                 
 forward to testify in favor of SB 19.  He said he found the                   
 discussion absolutely fascinating in that it is totally lopsided.             
 There had been no discussion of the compromise of the integrity of            
 state law or state law enforcement agencies as a result of putting            
 them in a position of having to enforce a law that is inconsistent            
 with state law and the state constitution.  All testimony thus far            
 had simply said, "Gee, this puts them in a tough spot to make a               
 decision."  Acknowledging that Colonel Glass's crew is overworked             
 and has too many rules to enforce, he said they must make decisions           
 at least that difficult many times a day, in order to decide                  
 whether to write tickets or not.                                              
 MR. BISHOP indicated he had experience as a former deputized                  
 officer with the ADF&G.  He cited a personal example where he                 
 fishes for both personal and commercial use near the Tanana River,            
 fishing under state law that protects the resource.  He envisions             
 a possible situation where federal rules prohibit him to fish there           
 because it may compromise opportunities for subsistence uses in               
 that drainage, for example.  The state law may say that the                   
 resource has the capability of sustaining a use that federal                  
 government prohibits.  He suggested asking a state enforcement                
 officer to enforce a law inconsistent with the state statute and              
 the constitution would place a conscientious officer in an                    
 untenable position.  Therefore, he believes there is every reason             
 to support this amendment to Title 16.                                        
 Number 1669                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked whether Mr. Bishop knows why                    
 subsistence was put in ANILCA.                                                
 MR. BISHOP said yes.  First, many people felt the subject had not             
 been adequately addressed under the Alaska Native Claims Settlement           
 Act (ANCSA).  And second, in order for the environmental movement             
 to successfully legislate, or have legislated, immense parks and              
 refuges in the state, they had to make a deal to accommodate                  
 subsistence uses in order to get those large parks.                           
 Number 1711                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked which of those examples Mr. Bishop              
 MR. BISHOP replied, "I was there.  They both operated on the                  
 negotiations at that time."                                                   
 Number 1719                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS said, "What you're saying then is                     
 subsistence is into ANILCA because it wasn't clear enough or the              
 state and federal government wasn't living up to their word in                
 making subsistence available to the Native community."                        
 MR. BISHOP replied that he had not said that.  "What I did say was            
 that some people believed that it needed to be addressed in ANILCA            
 because it had not been adequately addressed in ANCSA," he                    
 clarified.  "I personally did not say that either the state or the            
 federal government was remiss in providing for it."                           
 Number 1745                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS said subsistence was mentioned during                 
 negotiations over ANCSA.  He suggested that was part of a deal made           
 then.  He said, "And apparently it was believed by this state to              
 agree to even have that portion, Title VIII, in ANILCA.  Otherwise            
 it probably wouldn't be in ANILCA."  He asked whether Mr. Bishop              
 agrees with that.                                                             
 MR. BISHOP replied, "Yes, that's right.  There was an agreement ...           
 by the state of Alaska at that time to go along with that                     
 compromise, even though at that time, the state representatives               
 were advised that there was every probability that the rural                  
 priority in ANILCA was going to be unconstitutional under the state           
 constitution.  The state nevertheless agreed to it."                          
 Number 1816                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS said as far as ANILCA and the state's                 
 agreement to get Title VIII in ANILCA, subsistence was not lived up           
 to.  He said in an ANCSA conference report it says the Secretary of           
 Interior and the state of Alaska will take care of subsistence for            
 Natives.  In 1980, the state said that "the only way you're going             
 to get subsistence into ANILCA is if you make it for rural                    
 communities and leave Natives out -- leave the word `Natives' out."           
 He asked whether that is correct.                                             
 MR. BISHOP replied, "Yes, the state at that time did say that if              
 the state was going to be expected to participate in management,              
 that they would be unable to do so under the state's constitution             
 if the priority was limited to Alaska Natives.  And so the                    
 suggestion was made that - actually, I don't think by the state -             
 but it was made, in fact, it was insisted upon, that the term                 
 `rural' be included.  It was very interesting because the state, as           
 you probably know, had passed a subsistence priority law in 1978,             
 which did not include the term `rural.'  And the rationale of                 
 passing that law was that if the state had a subsistence law that             
 related to subsistence uses, it would be unnecessary to include               
 such a provision in ANILCA."                                                  
 MR. BISHOP continued, "However, when the negotiations continued on            
 ANILCA, the argument was made, `Well, the state has a subsistence             
 law; therefore, there should be no objection to putting it in                 
 federal law,' and it was included.  Then, just to make it a little            
 more complicated, the representative of the Alaska Federation of              
 Natives said the law that is in state statutes is not adequate                
 because it does not specify rural; therefore, if AFN is going to              
 agree to this compromise - the compromise at large of ANILCA in               
 total - there is going to have to be `rural' put into the                     
 subsistence priority.  And that was the ultimatum.  That was made             
 by Don Mitchell (ph).  I was sitting at the table when he made it."           
 MR. BISHOP indicated the state's response was negative.  He said              
 they were advised it may well be unconstitutional.  But everybody             
 wanted to get past ANILCA, and so they agreed to it.  He noted that           
 although they were advised it was probably unconstitutional, it had           
 not yet been determined.  The state tried to comply with that law             
 and passed a statute in 1986 that conformed to the rural priority             
 of federal law.  However, in 1989, it was found unconstitutional              
 under Alaska's constitution.  He suggested that while they had been           
 hoping for the best, it turned out it was the wrong thing to have             
 Number 1985                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS said he understands that subsistence was              
 part of ANCSA.  He suggested there was an agreement with the Native           
 community relating to ANCSA that should be lived up to.                       
 MR. BISHOP commented that in ANCSA, there are at least a couple of            
 places where reference to subsistence is made.  One is in the                 
 conference report mentioned by Representative Williams, which said            
 it was anticipated both the state and federal governments would               
 ensure that subsistence needs of Alaska Natives are addressed.  In            
 addition, an earlier report by then-Secretary Morton (ph) pointed             
 out that "it was anticipated, in the Department of Interior's                 
 recommendation on lands for selection by Native corporations, that            
 those lands would be used not only for economic development but to            
 support subsistence needs and activities of Alaska Natives."  He              
 concluded by suggesting that reading ANCSA or ANILCA is a little              
 like reading the Bible, in that people can often reach their own              
 Number 2065                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the bill would be held over.                    
 Number 2080                                                                   
 PAULA TERRELL, Researcher for Representative Irene Nicholia,                  
 reported that Representative Nicholia was ill.  She said Gabe Sam,            
 "fish and wildlife staff person" for Tanana Chiefs Conference,                
 Incorporated, had asked her to testify on his behalf, as he had               
 been unable to get a teleconference line from Fairbanks.  She                 
 advised that the Tanana Chiefs Conference, which represents                   
 approximately 70 villages in Representative Nicholia's district, is           
 strongly opposed to SB 19.                                                    
 Number 2131                                                                   
 DALE BONDURANT testified via teleconference from Kenai in support             
 of SB 19, saying he opposes any "quasi-support for federal mandated           
 subsistence priority for restricted classes of resource users."  He           
 adamantly opposes federal takeover of management of Alaska's fish,            
 wildlife and waters.  Even more adamantly, he opposes amending the            
 state constitution "just to assume a lackey type of responsibility            
 with no true authority."                                                      
 MR. BONDURANT, referring to the Alaska Supreme Court McDowell               
 decision, said it addressed the state's defense of "it's third                
 purpose" or unconstitutional compliance with ANILCA.  He quoted, "A           
 third purpose to comply with ANILCA in order to retain state fish             
 and game control on federal lands.  It is difficult to view this as           
 a sufficiently important purpose.  ANILCA does not require state              
 compliance.  State control merely for the sake of control is a                
 questionable goal when the terms infringe upon the open access                
 values of Article II."                                                        
 MR. BONDURANT said in the past, he had questioned ADF&G employees             
 as to why they even participate as advisors in the federal                    
 subsistence regulation hearings; he said they feel obligated to               
 furnish expert advice to help with resource protection.  "But I've            
 told them that they are in fact helping the enemy, the feds, in an            
 infringement of Alaska statehood authority to manage these public             
 trust resource properties," he stated.  "Those who claim that                 
 Alaska must amend the state constitution `common use' and `no                 
 exclusive right or special privileges' clauses, to gain subjugated            
 management, ignore that this makes Alaska responsible but the state           
 will be given no actual authority under federal oversight.  And               
 even worse, it will require the abrogation of an equal protection             
 under the law in Article I, Section 1."                                       
 MR. BONDURANT asked:  If the federal government was enforcing the             
 right to barter for cash, would Alaskan enforcement agents be                 
 expected to enforce that?  He referred to earlier discussion of the           
 oath to uphold state and federal constitutions.  "Maybe this is the           
 lever we need to get into the Supreme Court with the problems with            
 ANILCA," he said, suggesting the state try to obtain a ruling on              
 giving priority to a segment of the population for use of this                
 public trust resource.                                                        
 Number 2281                                                                   
 RICHARD ANDREW testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in                 
 support of SB 19.  An Alaska resident for 43 years, he believes               
 this will provide a wake-up message to the federal government that            
 if they are going to take over Alaska's fish and game, the state is           
 unwilling to help.  He thanked the sponsors.                                  
 Number 2305                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked if anyone else wished to testify, then                 
 concluded the meeting.  (SB 19 am was held over.)                             
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee             
 meeting at 3:35 p.m.                                                          

Document Name Date/Time Subjects