Legislature(1997 - 1998)

03/20/1997 01:10 PM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                         March 20, 1997                                        
                           1:10 p.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman                                       
 Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman                                        
 Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair                                      
 Representative Fred Dyson                                                     
 Representative Joe Green                                                      
 Representative William K. ("Bill") Williams                                   
 Representative Irene Nicholia (via teleconference)                            
 Representative Reggie Joule                                                   
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 21                                                 
 Relating to amendment of Title VIII of the Alaska National Interest           
 Lands Conservation Act.                                                       
      - HEARD AND HELD                                                         
 HOUSE BILL NO. 151                                                            
 "An Act relating to personal hunting of big game by big game guides           
 while clients are in the field and to use area registration for               
 portions of additional guide use areas by registered guides."                 
      - MOVED CSHB 151(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                   
 * HOUSE BILL NO. 144                                                          
 "An Act authorizing the Department of Environmental Conservation to           
 charge certain fees relating to registration of pesticides and                
 broadcast chemicals; and providing for an effective date."                    
      - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                
 * SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 128                                   
 "An Act relating to water quality; directing the Department of                
 Environmental Conservation to conduct water quality research;                 
 establishing the Water Science Oversight Board; and providing for             
 an effective date."                                                           
      - BILL CANCELLED                                                         
 HOUSE BILL NO. 19                                                             
 "An Act relating to licensing of sport fishing services operators             
 and fishing guides; and providing for an effective date."                     
      - BILL CANCELLED                                                         
 (* First public hearing)                                                      
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  HJR 21                                                               
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MASEK, Ogan                                     
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 02/12/97       314    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/12/97       314    (H)   RESOURCES, STATE AFFAIRS                          
 03/13/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 03/13/97              (H)   MINUTE(RES)                                       
 03/20/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 BILL:  HB 151                                                               
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN                                            
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 02/21/97       424    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/21/97       425    (H)   RESOURCES                                         
 03/06/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 03/06/97              (H)   MINUTE(RES)                                       
 03/11/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 03/11/97              (H)   MINUTE(RES)                                       
 03/20/97              (H)   RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                        
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 ANGIE MORGAN                                                                  
 P.O. Box 127                                                                  
 Aniak, Alaska  99557                                                          
 (No telephone number provided)                                                
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 21.                                     
 THOMAS TILDEN                                                                 
 P.O. Box 786                                                                  
 Dillingham, Alaska  99576                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 842-2259                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 21.                                     
 TERRY HOEFFERLE, Chief Executive Officer                                      
 Bristol Bay Native Association                                                
 P.O. Box 310                                                                  
 Dillingham, Alaska  99576                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 842-5257                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HJR 21.                       
 DARLENE PETERSON, Tribal Administrator                                        
 Chuathbaluk Traditional Council                                               
 P.O. Box CHU                                                                  
 Chuathbaluk, Alaska  99557                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 467-4313                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 21.                                     
 OLGA BOROWSKI, Vice Chairman                                                  
 Chuathbaluk Traditional Council                                               
 P.O. Box CHU                                                                  
 Chuathbaluk, Alaska  99557                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 467-4313                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 21.                                     
 MARK JACOBS, JR.                                                              
 P.O. Box 625                                                                  
 Sitka, Alaska  99835                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 747-8168                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 21.                                     
 RICHARD SLATS                                                                 
 Chevak Traditional Council                                                    
 P.O. Box 140                                                                  
 Chevak, Alaska  99563                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 858-7428                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HJR 21.                       
 GEORGE MORGAN, JR.                                                            
 (No address provided)                                                         
 Upper Kalskag  99607                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 471-2328                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HJR 21.                                     
 RICHARD GUTHRIE                                                               
 P.O. Box 240163                                                               
 Anchorage, Alaska  99524                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 243-7766                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 151.                          
 GARY KING, JR.                                                                
 2024 Stonegate Circle                                                         
 Anchorage, Alaska  99515                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 522-1164                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 151; suggested amendment.                
 KURT WEST, Licensing Supervisor                                               
 Division of Occupational Licensing                                            
 Department of Commerce and Economic Development                               
 P.O. Box 110806                                                               
 Juneau, Alaska  99811-0806                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 465-2588                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 151.                                     
 BILL LOMAX                                                                    
 355 Dailey Avenue, Number 28                                                  
 Anchorage, Alaska  99515                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 522-3263                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 151.                                     
 WAYNE WOODS                                                                   
 P.O. Box 1503                                                                 
 Palmer, Alaska  99645                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 746-2534                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 151; suggested amendment.                
 CAPTAIN JOEL HARD, Commander                                                  
 B Detachment                                                                  
 Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection                                      
 Department of Public Safety                                                   
 435 South Valley Way                                                          
 Palmer, Alaska  99645-6494                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 746-9139                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided department's position and answered              
                      questions regarding HB 151.                              
 EDWARD GRASSER, Legislative Assistant                                         
    to Representative Beverly Masek                                            
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 432                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-2679                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Explained amendment to HB 151.                           
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 97-28, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 0001                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing                    
 Committee meeting to order at 1:10 p.m.  Members present at the               
 call to order were Representatives Ogan, Hudson, Masek, Dyson,                
 Green, Williams, Nicholia (via teleconference from Fairbanks) and             
 Joule.  Representative Barnes was excused, traveling in her                   
 HJR 21 - REQUESTING CONGRESS TO AMEND ANILCA                                
 Number 0102                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was House              
 Joint Resolution No. 21, relating to amendment of Title VIII of the           
 Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA).                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the motion to move HJR 21 from                  
 committee, made by Representative Barnes at the March 13 hearing,             
 was on the table when that meeting adjourned.                                 
 Number 0149                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON made a motion to table the previous motion            
 and noted that Representative Barnes was now absent.  There being             
 no objection, it was so ordered.                                              
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the current meeting was to take                 
 testimony by invitation, primarily from people unable to testify on           
 March 13 because of lack of teleconference lines.  He did not                 
 intend to move HJR 21 that day.                                               
 Number 0275                                                                   
 ANGIE MORGAN testified via teleconference from Aniak.  Born in                
 Upper Kalskag, 30 miles away, she works for the Kuskokwim Native              
 Association, Natural Resources and Subsistence.  She testified "on            
 behalf of our people from this region."                                       
 MS. MORGAN said economic and cultural survival of the Alaska Native           
 community is the principal reason why the U.S. Congress enacted its           
 rural subsistence preference in 1980.  There are few jobs and                 
 little cash in rural areas.  Hunting, fishing and gathering provide           
 Native people with productive work and self-esteem.  If the                   
 subsistence-based economies and cultures of Alaska's villages fail,           
 there will be devastating consequences.                                       
 MS. MORGAN invited Representative Masek to revisit Native villages.           
 She herself lived in Anchorage almost ten years.  When she moved              
 back, she needed to relearn the village lifestyle.  Where she                 
 lives, a loaf of bread costs $2.85.  People only buy meat at the              
 store when they must.  It costs a middle-sized family $18,000 per             
 year for food without subsistence.  With welfare reform and high              
 energy costs, rural residents are having a hard time.                         
 Number 0690                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN clarified that HJR 21 does not call for amending             
 the rural preference portion of ANILCA.                                       
 Number 0720                                                                   
 THOMAS TILDEN testified via teleconference as a citizen from                  
 Dillingham.  He grew up in a small village 40 miles away.  He hopes           
 legislators do not think Representative Masek is speaking on behalf           
 of the Native people.  He is almost offended by what is being                 
 attempted.  He wishes legislators would come to the villages and              
 discuss the impacts of amending ANILCA.                                       
 MR. TILDEN said with the rural subsistence preference prior to                
 1989, there were no detrimental effects to the state.  He believes            
 Title VIII of ANILCA protects Alaska Natives' customary and                   
 traditional way of life.  Ironically, the Alaska constitution                 
 provides for protection of natural resources or habitat, but not              
 for Alaska Natives, who have long been part of the ecosystem.                 
 Number 0941                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that he was in Mr. Tilden's village in 1980            
 or 1981 and had been up and down that river numerous times.                   
 The teleconference operator advised that Robin Samuelson had                  
 elected to have Terry Hoefferle testify on his behalf.                        
 Number 0986                                                                   
 TERRY HOEFFERLE, Chief Executive Officer, Bristol Bay Native                  
 Association (BBNA), testified via teleconference from Dillingham.             
 The BBNA had opposed, by resolution and on the floor of the Alaska            
 Federation of Natives (AFN) convention, the federal government's              
 stepping in to manage Alaska's resources, in part because elder               
 statesmen remembered clearly what it was like when the federal                
 government managed the fisheries.  Mr. Hoefferle had never thought            
 he would prefer federal over state management.                                
 Number 1023                                                                   
 MR. HOEFFERLE read into the record Resolution 97-42, opposing HJR
 21, passed the previous day by the BBNA board of directors:                   
 "Whereas:  the Bristol Bay Native Association is a tribal                     
 organization serving 31 Alaska Native communities, each of which is           
 heavily dependent upon subsistence use of fish and game; and                  
 "Whereas:  the laws of the State of Alaska provide no meaningful              
 priority or protection for subsistence use of fish and game because           
 they equate recreational [sic]; and                                           
 "Whereas:  if the current policies and laws of the State of Alaska            
 regarding subsistence use of fish and game are extended to apply              
 statewide, then Alaska Native culture, tradition and indeed village           
 life itself will eventually be destroyed because of continuing                
 urban population growth and resultant pressure on fish and game               
 resources; and                                                                
 "Whereas:  cutbacks on government spending on welfare and other               
 services in rural Alaska are making subsistence even more                     
 essential; and                                                                
 "Whereas:  the only meaningful legal protection for subsistence and           
 the continued vitality of Native subsistence-based culture is Title           
 VIII of the Alaska Native Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA);           
 "Whereas:  House Joint Resolution 21 has been introduced in the               
 Alaska State Legislature and asks Congress to amend Title VIII of             
 ANILCA in a manner which will effectively destroy the protection it           
 gives to subsistence; and                                                     
 "Whereas:  some of the changes requested by HJR 21 would have no              
 practical effect, as they reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of           
 the law, for example:  State and private land are already excluded            
 from definition of public land in ANILCA, and ANILCA already                  
 neither confirms nor denies the existence of tribal sovereignty and           
 Indian country in Alaska; and                                                 
 "Whereas:  HJR 21 contains many other inaccuracies of law and fact;           
 "Whereas:  HJR 21 is cleverly worded to distort the truth and                 
 appears to intend to work a subterfuge on the people of Alaska; and           
 "Whereas:  among the falsehoods in HJR 21 are that its title                  
 implies it is for a mere amendment to Title VIII, whereas it would            
 actually gut the protections for subsistence uses in Title VIII;              
 that views expressed in HJR 21 are not a plurality of opinion in              
 Alaska, but a minority; polls have continually shown a majority               
 preference for a constitutional amendment to restore a rural                  
 subsistence priority to state law; Title VIII of ANILCA does not              
 `unnecessarily' encroach upon state authority but is a reasonable             
 and necessary exercise of congressional authority to meet the trust           
 obligations of the United States government toward Native                     
 Americans; Title VIII of ANILCA does not contradict the 10th                  
 Amendment to the U.S. Constitution; both state and federal courts             
 have consistently upheld the constitutionality of Title VIII                  
 against [the] Tenth Amendment and other constitutional challenge;             
 Number 1206                                                                   
 "Now therefore be it resolved by the Board of Directors of the                
 Bristol Bay Native Association on behalf of itself and the                    
 following Alaska Native communities:  Aleknagik, Chignik Bay,                 
 Chignik Lagoon, Chignik Lake, Clarks Point, Dillingham, Egegik,               
 Ekuk, Ekwok, Igiugig, Iliamna, Ivanof Bay, Kanatak, King Salmon,        
 Kokhanok, Koliganek, Levelock, Manokotak, Naknek, New Stuyah        
 Newhalen, Nondalton, Pedro Bay, Perryville, Pilot Point, Point            
 Heiden, Portage Creek, South Naknek, Togiak, Twin Hills and                 
 Ugashik; that they ardently oppose HJR 21 and urge its defeat in            
 the state legislature and its rejection by Congress.                          
 "Be it further resolved that copies of this resolution be sent to             
 the Alaska congressional delegation; Governor Tony Knowles, the               
 honorable Bruce Babbitt, Secretary of Interior; Senator Ben                   
 Nighthorse Campbell; Senator Daniel Inouye; the House and Senate              
 leadership in the Alaska State Legislature; State Senator Lyman               
 Hoffman; and Representatives Ivan Ivan and Carl Moses.  Signed:               
 Daniel Nielsen, President."                                                   
 Number 1271                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON said in following this issue for ten to twenty             
 years, he had heard and experienced polarization between rural and            
 urban Alaskans.  He thanked Mr. Hoefferle for mentioning possible             
 inconsistencies in HJR 21 and said they would look at those.  He              
 asked whether Mr. Hoefferle did not support, ultimately, Alaska               
 managing its own fish and wildlife resources.                                 
 Number 1341                                                                   
 MR. HOEFFERLE wished he could say yes.  However, he believes HJR 21           
 asks for substantial changes that would gut the effective                     
 protections of subsistence that ANILCA provides.  He expressed                
 sadness at the legislature's treatment of rural Alaskans, including           
 refusal to let Alaskans vote on the subsistence issue or place it             
 on the ballot for a constitutional amendment.  In light of welfare            
 reform and possible elimination of 32 positions in the Department             
 of Health and Social Services, he is losing faith in the                      
 legislature's commitment to protect Alaskans and meet their needs.            
 Number 1461                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON commented that one major problem is that this is           
 a multifaceted, polarized situation.                                          
 Number 1514                                                                   
 DARLENE PETERSON, Tribal Administrator, Chuathbaluk Traditional               
 Council, testified via teleconference.  She said Natives have a               
 right to live their way of life.  However, they must always defend            
 themselves to the legislature on subsistence, welfare and whatever            
 else arises.  She suggested there be more time to get informed                
 about legislation.                                                            
 Number 1604                                                                   
 OLGA BOROWSKI, Vice Chairman, Chuathbaluk Traditional Council,                
 testified via teleconference.  She asked what changes would occur             
 if subsistence came under state management.                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied that HJR 21 does not call for a change to            
 rural preference.  Rather, it calls for Alaskans to define terms              
 like "traditional," "customary," and "rural."                                 
 MS. BOROWSKI said after her monthly food stamps run out, she must             
 rely on subsistence, which she believes should be managed by the              
 federal government.                                                           
 Number 1701                                                                   
 MARK JACOBS, JR., testified via teleconference from Sitka, saying             
 he is 73 years old and has been involved in politics for over 50              
 years.  When ANILCA was pending in Congress, the Alaska legislature           
 took action to comply with it.  "It was a piece of legislation that           
 we agreed with, and that was for Native and non-Native alike," he             
 said.  "And then we began to have challenges from sportsmen's                 
 associations.  And to us, this endangered our inherent rights."               
 MR. JACOBS said the state and federal governments, including the              
 U.S. Congress, do not use the word "inherent."  Instead, they use             
 "traditional and customary."  He claims inherent rights, not                  
 subject to legislation, which he has possessed all his life and               
 which are immune to statutory regulation.  He said inherent rights            
 are common law rights, and there are no common law violations                 
 against a constitutional government, which includes both federal              
 and state constitutions.                                                      
 Number 1775                                                                   
 MR. JACOBS said under the statehood act, the state and its people             
 were required to disclaim any right or title, including fishing, to           
 any land claimed and owned by Indians, Eskimos and Aleuts.  He                
 referred to the state constitution, Article XII, Section 12, and              
 said it contains the word "forever" and cannot be changed, not even           
 by the federal government.  "Inherent rights is in the same                   
 category as not being subject to statutes," he said.                          
 MR. JACOBS stated, "To begin with, when we first filed our land               
 claims suit, it was a trespass suit.  And I have noticed that there           
 is no language in the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act that                
 we've sold the lands.  We still own it.  And it is still a trespass           
 on state -- on Alaska lands.  We still own it and claim it, and               
 that the act guarantees us maximum participation when the Native              
 rights are in ...."  Mr. Jacobs said he wished he could spend a day           
 or an hour with the committee.                                                
 Number 1851                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN invited Mr. Jacobs to visit in Juneau and said he            
 would inform Mr. Jacobs if he plans to be in Sitka.  He commented             
 that if every indigenous person in Alaska claimed an inherent right           
 to take whatever fish and game they see fit, Alaska would have an             
 anarchy and would probably lose the resource.  He believes some               
 kind of cohesive management is necessary.  Nonetheless, he                    
 expressed respect for Mr. Jacobs' opinion.                                    
 Number 1890                                                                   
 RICHARD SLATS, Chevak Traditional Council, testified via                      
 teleconference in opposition to HJR 21.  He read the following into           
 the record:                                                                   
 "The Kashunamiut are a federally recognized tribe who is                      
 represented by their tribal government, the Chevak Traditional                
 Council, whose primary goal is to protect the health, safety and              
 welfare and the inherent traditional and cultural rights of the               
 Kashunamiut and for their best interests.  Let this acknowledge               
 that we are in opposition of the House Joint Resolution No. 21, as            
 it infringes upon our inherent rights and will exploit our                    
 ancestral lands which are located on the Yukon Kuskokwim Delta                
 National Wildlife Refuge, which has been protected by -- or we feel           
 which has been protected by ANILCA, Title VIII, Subsistence Use and           
 Management, as it is written.                                                 
 "ANILCA Title VIII should not be amended because the resolution HJR
 21 contradicts the whole purpose of Title VIII.  These amendments             
 are also directly contradicting the RurAL CAP subsistence round               
 table, which was held in Anchorage February 1997.  The State of               
 Alaska may be out of compliance of ANILCA, Title VIII, concerning             
 subsistence.  The State of Alaska tends to lean towards sports,               
 commercial and other special interest groups that are not aware of            
 the importance of the subsistence issues and use for the rural                
 "The following are section responses to the `further resolved' of             
 the proposed resolution:                                                      
 "(1)  Public land is already defined in the Federal Register,                 
 Volume 57, No. 20, and ANILCA, Title VIII.                                    
 "(2)  Congress is already authorized to take over management if               
 [the] state is not in compliance.                                             
 [Resolve (3) not addressed]                                                   
 "(4)  Section 807 provides for protection of subsistence users, and           
 repeal would undermine authority of the federal judicial system.              
 "(5)  The customary and traditional use, subsistence use and rural            
 are defined in the Federal Register, Volume 57, No. 20, January 30,           
 1992, proposed rules of the Department of Interior, under Section             
 4, Definition of Subpart A - General Provision.  They are listed as           
 such in the final Subsistence Management for Federal Public Lands             
 in Alaska, which attests to the Webster's definition of [sic].  The           
 definition of the aforementioned terms are already defined and what           
 this resolution proposes to do is to authorize the State of Alaska            
 to rewrite the Webster's Dictionary to soothe Masek's and Ogan's              
 HJR 21.                                                                       
 "(6)  Under Title VIII, Section 804, the subsistence preference is            
 already addressed. ... The House Joint Resolution 21 contradicts              
 the purposes and policies of ANILCA, Title VIII.                              
 "(7)  Tribal sovereignty and Indian country issues have been                  
 decided in favor of the tribes across Alaska but is presently in              
 the appeal process; no amendments should even be considered because           
 court cases on these issues are and may be pending.                           
 "(8)  The State of Alaska ... should not have an option because if            
 subsistence management is handed to the State of Alaska, it would             
 be their obligation to establish regional advisory councils,                  
 meaning they should be mandated to establish such councils rather             
 than to choose to do so.                                                      
 "(9)  The Sections (8) and (9) proposed amendments are addressed in           
 Section 805(a)(2) and (3)(D)(iv).                                             
 "(10)  The sale of fish and wildlife taken for subsistence uses               
 supplements incomes for expenses incurred for hunting necessities,            
 ammunition, gasoline and oil and other gears to do more subsistence           
 hunting and fishing."                                                         
 Number 2108                                                                   
 MR. SLATS concluded that HJR 21 contradicts Title VIII of ANILCA.             
 Furthermore, there are provisions in 16 U.S.C. 3119 for the state             
 to enter into a cooperative agreement, rather than rewriting the              
 whole purpose and policy section of Title VIII.  The Kashunamiut,             
 the Chevak Traditional Council, Chevak Tribal Courts and their                
 departments oppose HJR 21, which they feel is a direct assault                
 against Alaska Natives.                                                       
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced that testifiers could fax comments to              
 (907) 465-3265.                                                               
 Number 2190                                                                   
 GEORGE MORGAN, JR., testified via teleconference from Upper                   
 Kalskag.  He and his ancestors had managed fish and game all their            
 lives.  They knew not to waste, and they respected the animals and            
 fish.  While they were being restricted on chum salmon, however,              
 others were catching 700,000 fish.  Mr. Morgan said 70 percent of             
 his food comes from subsistence.                                              
 MR. MORGAN stated, "We were here first.  We will always manage our            
 land better than the state and federal governments."  He said the             
 federal government assisted in managing resources.  The state                 
 government, however, has taken away money for advisory councils and           
 welfare, while allocating $1 million "to fight your own people."              
 He opposes HJR 21 because it does not protect what was agreed upon.           
 MR. MORGAN suggested meetings in places such as Bethel, Nome,                 
 Barrow and Kodiak.  He thanked Representative Masek for bringing              
 this up so people could comment.  He believes the federal                     
 government will do a better job for now.  Currently, there is a lot           
 of fish and game; he hopes this can be worked out before it is too            
 late.  He suggested 90 percent or more of state funding comes from            
 rural Alaska.  "Please don't take our subsistence way of life away.           
 We depend on that," he concluded.                                             
 Number 2308                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that public testimony was closed.                    
 REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS said he wants to settle the                      
 subsistence issue.  The state is in a critical position with                  
 subsistence.  The federal government has taken hold, and it will be           
 difficult to "get them out of our house."  The federal government             
 is not using biological science to manage Alaska's hunting and                
 fishing.  When the federal government managed Alaska's fisheries,             
 there were no fish.                                                           
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS reported that Senators Stevens and                    
 Murkowski had told him it is up to the legislature and the governor           
 to solve it, whether through ANILCA, the state constitution, or               
 both.  He said subsistence will stop commercial fishing, hunting              
 and even logging throughout Alaska.  Alaska is losing its                     
 resources.  He cannot stress enough how important it is for Alaska            
 to take care of the subsistence problem.                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS believes everyone affected must come to the           
 table.  He did not recall hearing one rural community in favor of             
 HJR 21.  He stated his hope that everyone can get past the                    
 polarization.  "We're only hearing one side of it, and we only have           
 one side of the fix," he said.  "We need both sides, the rural                
 communities talking on this also."                                            
 TAPE 97-28, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 0006                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS advised that he had asked the Speaker of              
 the House to hold a majority caucus on the subsistence problem.  He           
 believes an issue as controversial as this requires time.  He                 
 suggested going to rural Alaska and asked that HJR 21 be held until           
 after the caucus.                                                             
 Number 0059                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said much of what he is hearing from rural                   
 communities is fear and mistrust.  He thinks the perception is that           
 the agenda behind HJR 21 is eliminating subsistence.  However, that           
 is not the objective.  It is simply trying to let Alaskans resolve            
 this.  He believes if Alaska is to settle it as a state, it must be           
 done the first half of this legislative session.                              
 Number 0110                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE explained that his given name means               
 "when a whale is caught in the village and the person is getting              
 the membrane from the liver for the purpose of using it to make a             
 drum, to get a softer sound."  He said subsistence is more than               
 just hunting and fishing.  It goes into every fiber of the people             
 in rural Alaska, down to how they carry their names.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated, "I would submit that if we were to go            
 to our congressional delegation, bringing people who are at odds              
 over this issue, and letting them know that we are coming to the              
 table to try to resolve this, that our congressional delegation               
 would work very hard to get a waiver and an extension."  He                   
 indicated Senator Murkowski had mentioned that.                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE said he opposes HJR 21.  First, there is                 
 general mistrust in rural areas, some of which relates to the                 
 state's advocating for sport hunting and fishing.  While that                 
 brings in tens of millions of dollars to the Alaskan economy,                 
 subsistence gathering by rural Alaskans brings in little in terms             
 of new economy.                                                               
 Number 0262                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE referred to federal management, or no                    
 management, and said prior to 1971 or 1972, polar bears were nearly           
 extinct from sport hunting.  Since the Endangered Species Act, both           
 polar bear and walrus populations have bounced back.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked that the sponsor consider tabling HJR 21           
 so that people can come to the table with no agenda, to see if                
 progress can be made.  He believes state management, if it can be             
 accomplished, is best.  He would rather settle this issue with the            
 600,000 Alaska residents, as opposed to the 600 million who have              
 access through the federal government system.  However, he also               
 believes they must come to the table with no agenda, or at least              
 with more openness.                                                           
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE expressed appreciation for holding over the              
 resolution and allowing additional testimony.                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE discussed teaching his children about the gift           
 of sharing.  He said for years, he believed that meant giving a               
 little of the harvest to another person.  Then he heard discussion            
 from elders who were unable to go out anymore.  They asked the                
 children where they went and how they got the foods.  As the                  
 children recanted the tales, there was deep spiritual bonding                 
 between the generations.  He indicated there is more to subsistence           
 than comes across on telephone lines.  He asked that the committee            
 go to where the expertise lies.                                               
 Number 0449                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA spoke via teleconference.  She                  
 thanked Co-Chairman Ogan for hearing the resolution again.  She               
 concurred with Representative Joule's comments.  Subsistence                  
 provides food to supplement rural people's budgets, and it is a tie           
 to Native traditional and cultural practices.  "We take great pride           
 in having these activities, which helps us to bond with others in             
 our communities," she said.  She emphasized that when a moose or              
 caribou is taken, they attempt to utilize every part of it.                   
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA said HJR 21 weakens the rural priority for            
 subsistence under Title VIII of ANILCA.  "We cannot let you do                
 that," she said, emphasizing that subsistence is necessary to                 
 supplement the rural lifestyle.                                               
 Number 0639                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said he believes this is a process at                   
 impasse.  People are talking to, but not with, each other.  If one            
 element is missing, it is trust.  He acknowledged concerns of both            
 rural residents and people worried about violating equal access               
 provisions within the constitution.  He is convinced there is                 
 enough for everyone in Alaska.  But how to re-establish that trust            
 is the question.  He said if nothing else, HJR 21 has clearly                 
 articulated the difficulty Alaskans are having in solving a problem           
 that really should not be a problem.                                          
 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON acknowledged that some feel there is a                  
 conspiracy or power play to remove something they feel spiritually            
 connected to.  "And I don't believe that's the case, but I think              
 it's perception," he said.  He expressed frustration at the                   
 inability to come up with the "trust equity" needed to solve this             
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN concurred.                                                   
 Number 0825                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked when HJR 21 would be heard again.             
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said although it would be before the committee               
 again, he wanted to work with Representative Williams on the caucus           
 Number 0859                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he identifies with Co-Chairman Hudson's             
 remarks.  While HJR 21 on its face is a bright, imaginative and               
 incisive attempt to solve the problem without going to either                 
 extreme, it is not widely perceived that way.  There is more work             
 to do to help people understand the intention.  He believes there             
 will be no progress until trust is built and people start talking.            
 Unfortunately, he believes Alaskans are a long ways from that.                
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he, Co-Chairman Hudson and Representative           
 Green just returned from the Yukon Territory, where parties are               
 halfway through the process of resolving similar problems.                    
 Although they have gone about it in a reasonable manner, with                 
 everyone at the table, it has been a 20-year process to date.                 
 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON concurred with Co-Chairman Ogan that "we're              
 under the gun here on time."  The problem has been brewing for one            
 or two hundred years, and it is long past the optimum time to get             
 started.  Now, the legislature would try to play catch-up, make up            
 for lots of real and imagined past injustices, and try to get past            
 the paranoia and prejudice to arrive at a solution.  Although he              
 will work hard, he guesses it will not get done in a timely                   
 Number 1016                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN believes these issues were perceived to have been            
 settled during statehood.  Since then, however, they had unraveled.           
 Number 1035                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK said it is important that Alaskans               
 work together.  She believes HJR 21 provides a good avenue for                
 debating what needs to be done at the state level on subsistence.             
 There have been 20 years of debate, money spent, studies done, and            
 commissions and boards put together.  Recently, RurAL CAP conducted           
 a round table discussion including statewide Native                           
 representatives; although invited, she was unable to attend because           
 of the legislative session.                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said in continuing discussions with her family           
 in Anvik, where she grew up, she has never heard of shortages of              
 fish and game.  She believes rural areas increasingly depend on               
 federal and state grant money.  She further believes the AFN,                 
 despite good intentions, is using subsistence to polarize people              
 and distort the real problems.                                                
 Number 1279                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said HJR 21 addresses questions of rural                 
 versus urban, race against race, dual management, and whether the             
 federal government can continue to define subsistence regulations.            
 She emphasized that nothing in HJR 21 removes protection for                  
 subsistence.  She has lived the rural and subsistence lifestyle,              
 and nobody can take that from her.  Although a hundred years ago              
 there was a true subsistence lifestyle, now people are caught                 
 between two different worlds.                                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK acknowledged that Natives and those who have             
 moved to Alaska all have culture and tradition.  She believes in              
 respecting that.  Equality is one of the most important issues, and           
 that is how the United States was born 200 years ago.                         
 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said in no other state has the federal                   
 government taken away the state's right and ability to manage its             
 fish and wildlife.  At both the state and federal levels, money               
 goes to rural areas to strengthen the economy and help with                   
 education, health and social problems.  She emphasized that there             
 are no bad or ill feelings on the part of legislators.  She pointed           
 out that unfortunately, many jobs out there are state or other                
 government jobs.  She said HJR 21 allows the state to make                    
 decisions on definitions yet still retains the rural preference,              
 which will not go away, even in times of shortage.                            
 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK said the bigger issue is that the state must             
 act.  The only other idea has been to change the state                        
 constitution.  However, she believes that currently the majority of           
 Alaskans want to see the constitution protected.                              
 Number 1542                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN commended participants for the level of debate and           
 the decorum of all involved.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN reminded the committee that inaction is a            
 Number 1597                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called an at-ease at 2:32 p.m.  He called the                
 meeting back to order at 2:35 p.m.  He announced the committee                
 would hold HJR 21 over and reminded the public that testimony was             
 HB 151 - BIG GAME GUIDES AND REGISTRATION AREAS                             
 Number 1685                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was House               
 Bill No. 151, "An Act relating to personal hunting of big game by             
 big game guides while clients are in the field and to use area                
 registration for portions of additional guide use areas by                    
 registered guides."  Before the committee, adopted on March 11 as             
 a work draft, was proposed committee substitute 0-LS0618\B,                   
 Utermohle, 3/11/97.                                                           
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN, sponsor, briefly recapped the bill.  He opened              
 the meeting for public comment.                                               
 Number 1830                                                                   
 RICHARD GUTHRIE testified via teleconference from Anchorage in                
 support of HB 151.  A guide outfitter, he said everyone he had                
 spoken with supports prohibiting a guide from hunting while with a            
 client.  There had been past abuses of that.                                  
 MR. GUTHRIE commented on Section 5.  In a few situations, land                
 ownership boundaries do not coincide with guide use area                      
 boundaries.  For example, he has a permit from the National Park              
 Service to hunt in a park reserve that overlaps two different state           
 guide use areas.  In the past, through the regulations, he could              
 register in the use area where his camp had been for over 17 years,           
 and he was allowed to use that portion of the adjacent guide use              
 area for which his National Park Service permit was valid.  If he             
 lost that, using the area would no longer be economically viable              
 because of recent changes in seasons and species open to hunting.             
 Number 2072                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that the practice addressed in Section 5             
 was previously allowed in regulation.  However, it was not included           
 in the legislation that passed.  It is limited in scope, affects              
 few people and is only in areas where nobody else can hunt.  He               
 believes it is common sense.                                                  
 Number 2121                                                                   
 GARY KING, JR., testified via teleconference from Anchorage.  He              
 had worked the previous session with Senator Halford and                      
 Representative Ogan to put the new guide statutes in place.                   
 Although he favors the concept of Section 5, he does not favor the            
 MR. KING said he has guided in an area since 1971.  After 1980,               
 when the National Park Service came in, he was permitted to use a             
 certain geographical area.  However, when it was mapped, one line             
 did not coincide with his federal permitting area, cutting off                
 eight to ten square miles that would have significant financial               
 impact should he be unable to use it.  He is one of several guides            
 in this situation.                                                            
 MR. KING suggested rewording Section 5, page 4, beginning with line           
 30, to read, "in which the registered guide is already registered             
 if the registered guide can demonstrate to the department that he             
 holds a valid federal permit to conduct guided hunting in that                
 portion of the adjacent area where the portion of the guide's                 
 existing federal permit area was mapped into an adjacent area                 
 because state guide use area boundaries do not coincide with                  
 federal permit or concession areas."                                          
 Number 2452                                                                   
 KURT WEST, Licensing Supervisor, Division of Occupational                     
 Licensing, Department of Commerce and Economic Development, came              
 forward at Co-Chairman Ogan's request.                                        
 TAPE 97-29, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 0006                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. West to comment on Mr. King's proposed             
 MR. WEST asked to hear it again.                                              
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN requested that Mr. King fax it.                              
 MR. KING said his comments were included in a letter of March 5,              
 1997, faxed to Co-Chairman Ogan's office.                                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said he did not see it in the file.                          
 Number 0104                                                                   
 MR. KING noted that he had also sent letters to the Department of             
 Commerce and Economic Development over the last year.  He offered             
 to fax it again, however.                                                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN advised that there would be no quorum soon and               
 that he wished to move the bill.  He said it could possibly be                
 amended on the House floor.  He asked that Mr. King fax his                   
 wording.  Co-Chairman Ogan would run it by the legislative drafter            
 and ask Mr. West to compare with the language of the old                      
 regulations.  He asked Mr. King whether, to his knowledge, his                
 wording coincides with the previous policy.                                   
 MR. KING said it does not 100 percent parallel the language of the            
 old regulations.  "And as you recall, I had a problem with the old            
 regs when they were drafted," he added.                                       
 Number 0215                                                                   
 BILL LOMAX testified via teleconference from Anchorage.  He concurs           
 with Mr. King that the language is unfair.  He said the new mapping           
 process could annex a portion of an existing permit area into an              
 additional guide use area.  Changing the language, which affects a            
 number of guides, would make it a much cleaner bill.                          
 Number 0292                                                                   
 WAYNE WOODS testified via teleconference from Mat-Su.  He proposed            
 adding a new subsection to Section 2, page 4, following line 1, to            
 read, "(19) it is unlawful for a transporter to remain in the field           
 with clients beyond the normal duties of dropping off or retrieving           
 clients, meat and hunting equipment."                                         
 MR. WOODS said there is beginning to be quite a problem with                  
 transporters remaining in the field with clients and assisting with           
 hunting.  He said the Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection is             
 having a difficult time making a case for guiding without a license           
 without placing some constraints on the transporter industry.  "I             
 don't mind taking on a higher level of responsibility, but I want             
 a corresponding measure of protection for my license by the state             
 for doing this," he explained.                                                
 MR. WOODS said Captain Joel Hard had testified March 15, 1997, at             
 the Board of Game hearing that the lowest level of regulatory                 
 compliance is with drop-off hunters serviced by transporters,                 
 whereas the highest level of compliance has been by guides and                
 local resident hunters.  He said this problem is starting to have             
 an impact on the general hunting public, with greater restriction             
 on seasons and bag limits in part due to this problem.  He believes           
 it can be rectified simply by making this amendment.                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Captain Hard to comment.                               
 Number 0454                                                                   
 CAPTAIN JOEL HARD, Commander, B Detachment, Division of Fish and              
 Wildlife Protection, Department of Public Safety, testified via               
 teleconference.  He had been asked to address the Board of Game               
 about enforcement concerns relating to the Mulchatna herd in Units            
 17, 19 and 9.  In that testimony, he stated that the division's               
 experience in those units, with that caribou herd, is that they see           
 the highest rate of wanton waste compliance, and salvage                      
 requirements being met, by subsistence and guided hunters.  The               
 lowest compliance rate in that area is by nonresident and resident            
 drop-off hunters.                                                             
 Number 0527                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether that is basically a fly-in hunt.               
 CAPTAIN HARD said yes, although there is some boat traffic hunting            
 in Unit 17, primarily, and then up into 19.                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether people taking others on boat hunts             
 were accompanying them in the field and assisting with the hunt.              
 CAPTAIN HARD indicated in those areas, they rarely see transporters           
 using boats.  The boat traffic there is primarily from resident               
 Number 0576                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there are areas having problems with           
 transporters accompanying hunters and hunting with them in the                
 CAPTAIN HARD explained, "We have investigated a number of cases and           
 received complaints, I'm going to say primarily in my experience in           
 Southeast Alaska with spring bear hunters, where we're seeing some            
 transporters accompanying clients beyond the point of beaching.               
 And it's difficult for us to determine whether or not there is a              
 guiding activity ongoing, or if there's just an accompanying for              
 the pleasure of the outing."                                                  
 CAPTAIN HARD continued, "Without specific statements or evidence of           
 remuneration, it's difficult to make a criminal case of guiding               
 without a license.  I think the current regulation, although it was           
 intending to prevent transporters from accompanying people in the             
 field, it doesn't clearly state that you cannot do that."                     
 Number 0661                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN offered an amendment, 0-LS0618\B.1, Utermohle,               
 3/18/97, which read:                                                          
      Page 3, line 26:                                                         
           Delete "class-A assistant guide"                                  
           Insert "person who is licensed as a registered guide, a           
           class-A assistant guide,"                                         
      Page 3, line 28:                                                         
           Delete "class-A assistant guide or the assistant guide"           
           Insert "person"                                                   
      Page 3, line 29:                                                         
           Delete "class-A assistant guide or assistant guide"               
           Insert "person"                                                   
      Page 3, line 31, through 4, line 1:                                      
           Delete "class-A assistant guide or assistant guide"               
           Insert "person"                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained that the intention is to prevent guides            
 from hunting in the field.  However, Eddie Grasser, aide to                   
 Representative Masek, had felt there was a loophole because a guide           
 contracted with another guide does not fall under the current                 
 Number 0732                                                                   
 EDWARD GRASSER, Legislative Assistant to Representative Beverly               
 Masek, explained he had noticed a loophole.  As the bill is                   
 written, registered or master guides, as Mr. Grasser had been, may            
 not hunt while in the field if they contract with a client.                   
 Neither may an assistant guide do so.  However, a registered guide            
 working for another registered or master guide was not precluded              
 from doing so.  Thus, the amendment.                                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said the drafters felt this amendment takes care             
 of the problem.                                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN made a motion to adopt the amendment.  There                
 being no objection, it was so ordered.                                        
 Number 0848                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS made a motion to move the committee                   
 substitute, as amended, from committee with individual                        
 recommendations.  There being no objection, CSHB 151(RES) moved               
 from the House Resources Standing Committee.                                  
 Number 0861                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee             
 meeting at 2:59 p.m.                                                          

Document Name Date/Time Subjects