Legislature(2001 - 2002)
03/26/2001 03:25 PM House L&C
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE LABOR AND COMMERCE STANDING COMMITTEE
March 26, 2001
3:25 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Andrew Halcro, Vice Chair
Representative Kevin Meyer
Representative Pete Kott
Representative Norman Rokeberg
Representative Harry Crawford
Representative Joe Hayes
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Lisa Murkowski, Chair
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 128
"An Act relating to employment of certain minors in
agriculture."
- HEARD AND HELD; ASSIGNED TO SUBCOMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 67
"An Act requiring proof of motor vehicle insurance in order to
register a motor vehicle; and relating to motor vehicle
liability insurance for taxicabs."
- BILL HEARING POSTPONED
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 128
SHORT TITLE:EMPLOYMENT OF MINORS IN AGRICULTURE
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)OGAN
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
02/14/01 0317 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
02/14/01 0317 (H) L&C
02/14/01 0317 (H) REFERRED TO LABOR & COMMERCE
03/26/01 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 108
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Introduced the bill as the sponsor of HB
128.
RICHARD MASTRIANO, Director
Division of Labor Standards and Safety
Department of Labor and Workforce Development (DLWD)
3301 Eagle Street
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified for the division in opposition to
HB 128.
LARRY DeVILBISS, Carrot Farmer;
State Board Member, Alaska Farm Bureau
HC04-9302
Palmer, Alaska 99645
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 128.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 01-40, SIDE A
Number 0001
VICE CHAIR ANDREW HALCRO called the House Labor and Commerce
Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:25 p.m. Those present
at the call to order included Representatives Halcro, Kott,
Rokeberg, and Hayes; Representatives Meyer and Crawford arrived
as the meeting was in progress.
HB 128-EMPLOYMENT OF MINORS IN AGRICULTURE
VICE CHAIR HALCRO announced that the committee would hear HOUSE
BILL NO. 128, "An Act relating to employment of certain minors
in agriculture."
Number 0053
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of
HB 128, stated that he introduced the bill because he lives in
an agricultural district in Palmer and is surrounded by farms;
farms require a great deal of labor, he said. One of [these
farms], owned by Larry DeVilbiss, grows carrots. He stated that
the Department of Labor and Workforce Development (DLWD) has to
sign a work permit for a person who is between the ages of
fourteen and seventeen who wishes to work on a farm. There is a
generation of kids that don't have a work ethic, he emphasized,
and many get in trouble.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN remarked that the labor laws are well-
meaning and there are some appropriate reasons for them;
however, in the long run, [these laws] have actually harmed our
young people by not teaching them a good work ethic. Plus, he
said, [farmers] are dependent on inexpensive labor that is
undesired by adults. He recounted that many farmers have told
him that they have had people quit working on the farm because
they can make more money on the [Alaska Temporary Assistance
Program (ATAP)].
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked the committee to seriously consider
passing the bill out of committee, thereby doing something for
Alaskan kids but also doing something to help an industry that
isn't viable in this state. He commented that farming is a
viable industry but it has gotten a bad reputation in past years
because all of the big projects that the state tried to jump-
start failed. There are some tenacious people out there who are
making a living at this, and they work extremely hard, he said.
If Alaska ever gets into a national security situation in the
Pacific Rim and shipping is cut off from the Lower 48, [Alaska]
is going to have some real problems and Alaskans will be glad
that there are some people with [stockpiles of vegetables].
Number 0399
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES asked what information is available that
indicates that this is a problem. In looking through the bill
information, he said, he isn't seeing anything regarding
problems that the farms are having with the time between when a
person submits a work permit and when the commissioner of labor
signs off on that permit. He referred to the sponsor statement
where it says that a local [Matanuska-Susitna] Valley farmer had
informed Representative Ogan of this, but other than that, he
remarked, the information to justify the bill [is absent].
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN responded that the committee's packet should
have included a list from the Farmers Association of things it
would like to see accomplished. He deferred the question to
Larry DeVilbiss, carrot farmer.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Representative Ogan if he envisioned
children over fourteen years of age picking vegetables or also
operating machinery.
Number 0568
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied that it would depend on the kid;
however, he wouldn't want young kids that weren't his own
working on dangerous machinery because of the possibility of a
liability suit if an injury occurred. There is a lot of "hand"
work that needs to be done; for example, Mr. DeVilbiss grows
organic carrots, which are picked by hand and then sorted and
washed.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT stated that there is a [limitation] in
statute that a combination of school and work hours can't exceed
nine hours a day. And he pointed out that there is also a
prohibition in AS 23.10.350 that precludes employment of a
person under eighteen in an occupation dangerous to life or
limb. He said driving a tractor or working around a combine
would fall into that category, so [kids] would be precluded from
doing those jobs.
Number 0714
VICE CHAIR HALCRO stated that Representative Ogan had made the
comment about kids growing up without a work ethic. He referred
to an article he came across last night, which he provided for
the committee, showing that minors in the workplace are a
growing problem in most of the states. Currently, an estimated
5.5 million students between the ages of twelve and seventeen
work, which represents about two-thirds of the high school kids,
compared to less than 5 percent, 50 years ago. Due to the low
unemployment rate, employers are going out trying to hire
younger kids. It appears that this bill gives a "blanket"
approval for any minor at least fourteen years of age who can
get written permission from his or her parents to work on a
farm. He expressed approval if the minor is picking vegetables;
however, if [these minors] will be working around [machinery],
it is cause for alarm. He asked Representative Ogan if he is
aware of what is required when an employer fills out the [work
permit].
Number 0820
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN deferred the question to Mr. DeVilbiss. He
added that the timeliness of the DLWD is an obvious problem or
else the Farmers Association wouldn't have asked for it.
Number 0840
VICE CHAIR HALCRO mentioned that this brings up a larger issue:
the training wage and the effectiveness with which the DLWD
handles the requests from various employers.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG pointed out that the committee is
looking at youth employment, the training wage, and the problems
revolving around the departments. He said he has been told that
the use of a conveyor belt would be restricted under the
Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) or other
standards, which, he said, he finds very disconcerting.
Philosophically, he supports the bill; however, he asked
Representative Ogan if it is his intention that there be no
hourly restrictions and so forth. He said he is unsure as to
how this all fits into the whole statutory scheme.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN explained that [the bill] would allow the
parent to give permission for the kid to work on a farm, which
he said should be good enough. The state isn't the parents.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that if [a kid] is under
seventeen years of age, he or she could only work 30 hours [a
week]. He asked if this is in the same statute, because this is
not in the Wage and Hour Act.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN pointed out that this doesn't change any
laws; he said there are adequate protections in place. All the
[legislation does] is this: instead of the commissioner or the
department playing the parent, the parents are making the
judgment call.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO pointed out that the formality is put in place
to make sure that rules are followed and kids are protected.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN agreed but said he would also assume that
this doesn't exclude people from following the law or limiting
liability if they don't.
Number 1000
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said this doesn't do anything to upset the
remaining portion of Title 23 that deals with children in
employment. He said his concern is that if, for example, there
was a new OSHA requirement, how would the parent know that he or
she wasn't in violation of that OSHA regulation or rule?
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked: How does a bureaucrat that approves
the permit know whether [infractions to OSHA regulations] are
there unless they go out and inspect [work sites]? He expressed
confidence that [the division] could go around and do this
anyway to make sure that workers are safe; it doesn't change
anything.
Number 1074
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES asked who would be liable if something
happened to the child; he said it sounds as if [the legislature
is] taking away the state's responsibility and putting the onus
on the parent. So if the child was working with machinery, for
example, would the state be liable if something happened?
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said logic tells him that the employer would
be liable because the business has to maintain workers'
compensation for workers.
Number 1153
RICHARD MASTRIANO, Director, Division of Labor Standards and
Safety, Department of Labor and Workforce Development (DLWD),
via teleconference, stated that he, too, lives in the Matanuska
Valley and said Mr. DeVilbiss is his borough assembly
representative; he is familiar with the farming situation out in
the valley; however, he is charged with the enforcement of child
labor laws. And one of the tools that the division uses to
enforce those laws is the work permit.
MR. MASTRIANO went on to answer some of the questions raised by
committee members. The work permit is the vehicle to find out
what the employer is going to have the child doing: what
equipment the child will be working with; what the rate of pay
will be; and when payday is. Another part of the permit is an
authorization that the parent signs after reviewing the upper
half of the work permit to see what the kid will be doing. [The
parents] fill it out, and it becomes the parent's authorization
to the commissioner or the department to allow the child to
work. Then the permit is submitted to the department for
review. It is reviewed for hazardous orders and whether the
individual, in his or her age group, can perform the work listed
on the permit.
Number 1266
MR. MASTRIANO gave an example. There are a number of kids who
have driver's licenses and drive back and forth to school. He
said [kids] work to help finance cars, insurance, and so forth.
One of the things prohibited in state and federal law is minors
under eighteen years of age driving a tractor that is over 20
horsepower. Most of the tractors that he sees in the fields are
usually over 20 horsepower, so a kid wouldn't be able to drive a
tractor unless that child was the child of the owner of the
farm. If parents were just going to be authorized to allow
their kids to work for a farm, they might not know about that
particular hazard. Agriculture is one of the most grueling and
hazardous occupations in the United States, he said, and
Alaska's laws are more stringent than those in other states.
[Alaska] requires a work permit for children from age fourteen
until the seventeenth birthday. Once the seventeenth birthday
is reached, the child only needs proof of age to show that he or
she is over sixteen. At that point, he said, it becomes the
responsibility of the department to go out and ensure that the
child isn't doing something that is a health hazard.
Number 1368
MR. MASTRIANO explained that the work permit also allows [the
division] to review other potential hazardous such as toxins
used in farm work, and gives [the division] the opportunity to
warn a farmer of potential muscular or skeletal repetitive-
motion injuries.
Number 1425
MR. MASTRIANO stated that [the division] is generally able to
turn a faxed work permit around in a matter of hours if proof of
the individual's age is submitted along with the permit.
However, one of the things that employers like to fax is a
driver's permit, but since it has a hologram on it, it blurs out
the birth date unless the lightest setting is used when copies
are made. He said many employers think that [the division]
wants to be able to see what the minor looks like, but that
really isn't the concern. When the division sends [the work
permit] back saying that it is illegible, [an employer] will try
to get the picture to come out right without reading the
statement that says it is the birth date that is needed.
MR. MASTRIANO said a number of [employers] fax in birth
certificates and [the division] is able to turn those around
almost immediately. If the work permit comes to the office
overnight or past 4 p.m., it may not be returned until the next
day. He added that [the division] has three offices that review
and sign work permits; and across the state, the job service
offices fax work permits [to the division]. People can go there
to have one sent if they don't have a fax machine.
MR. MASTRIANO explained that it is important that [the employer]
give [the division] the fax number or address where the work
permit can be sent. He stated that [the division] tries to
accommodate the employer. Allowing parents to authorize work
without the department's review could place kids in a harmful
situation without the knowledge of the parent or even the
employer, because the employers don't know all of the hazardous
orders. As long as there are hazardous orders, [the division]
is required to enforce them, he explained.
Number 1554
VICE CHAIR HALCRO pointed out that one of the reasons for this
legislation is the concern that "by the time the request works
its way through the maze of beuracracy, the harvest season is
over." He sought verification that Mr. Mastriano had said that
[the work permits] are normally turned around in a couple of
hours unless there is a problem.
MR. MASTRIANO replied affirmatively. In the summertime, he
said, because the fax machine is so popular, it may take longer
than an hour because on some days [the division] processes 200
to 300 work permits. The fax machine can't keep up; there is
one person assigned to handle nothing but work permits and get
them to an investigator to review.
Number 1602
VICE CHAIR HALCRO asked: If the situation occurs in which the
fax doesn't come in clearly or information needs to be followed
up on, what is the average timeframe for a response of approval
or denial?
MR. MASTRIANO said it depends on what [the division is] looking
for; ordinarily, a form will be faxed back telling the employer
what is needed for approval. This generally goes back about the
same time that the work permit would, but, again, is based on
how busy the telephone is at the time.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO asked if there has ever been a situation in
which [the division] denied a permit because a minor was going
to be working around harmful chemicals or unsafe machinery.
Number 1681
MR. MASTRIANO replied that there have been several occasions,
none that he could recall in the farm industry regarding
chemicals, but situations in which kids were going to work on a
potato digger, which is equipment considered hazardous for
anyone under the age of eighteen. [The division] has denied
several work permits to have kids doing other types of work such
as slicing food, or working with bakery machinery or
construction equipment not authorized for minors to be around.
He said [the division] has also had parents come in and withdraw
their authorization for their child to work, and those are
handled in the same expeditious manner.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked: If a child works under the direct
supervision of a parent in a business owned and operated by the
parent, is he or she exempt from that permitting process?
MR. MASTRIANO replied that [the parents] are exempt from the
child labor law altogether. What the parent is told is that
[the division] hopes that the child isn't going to be placed in
a situation that is going to cause injury or harm. He explained
that one of the caveats for that is that [the child] must be in
the direct supervision of the parent; the parent can't leave the
child in someone else's supervision.
Number 1759
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT referred to Section 2, paragraph (2), of the
bill, "The minor performs the work in the physical presence of
one of the minors parents or legal guardians". He asked whether
[Alaska] has any provisions that would afford that same
opportunity if custody of that minor has been set by court order
to another person who is granted legal custody of that minor.
MR. MASTRIANO responded that the work permit says that the
parent or legal guardian must authorize the work. If a child
comes in to [the division office] and says that he or she isn't
getting along with his or her parents, and is living with
someone else - unless the guardian is court-appointed - [the
division] won't issue a work permit.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked if Section 2, paragraph (2), is even
necessary.
Number 1848
MR. MASTRIANO stated that if the work permit requirement is
eliminated, then it is necessary in agriculture because the
parent is authorizing [the child] to work. For paragraph (2),
no written authorization would need to be given to the farmer;
just the presence of the parent would be enough to allow the
child to work with the parent.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO pointed out that the provision in law that
says it has to be a legal guardian makes sense because if there
was a minor who disconnected from his or her family and was
living with someone else, and the minor was injured or killed,
certainly the parents could bring suit against the state for
allowing the minor to do that.
MR. MASTRIANO went on to another point. He said one of the
questions asked was regarding ages of minors and work
requirements. He explained that fourteen- and fifteen-year olds
do have an hour requirement. When school is not in session,
they are allowed to work up to 40 hours a week, no more than 8
hours a day, and cannot start before 5 a.m. or work after 9 p.m.
When school is in session, the requirement is stricter and
becomes 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., no more than 18 hours a week, and no
more than 9 hours a day combining school and work. For
fourteen- and fifteen-year-olds, [the division] really restricts
hours, but for sixteen- and seventeen-year-olds, the only
restriction is that they cannot work more than six days a week.
Number 1963
MR. MASTRIANO said [the division] has had a number of requests
from schools to try to change that, but at this point it
remains. People under the age of eighteen are the only
employees currently in the state that are required to have a 30-
minute break if required to work six consecutive hours.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Mr. Mastriano to direct him to the
section that deals with the hours that a minor under sixteen can
work.
MR. MASTRIANO stated that he didn't have this information with
him, but said it is in the child labor section; he offered to
get it for the committee. He added that the hours are listed on
the front page of the work permit so there is no [confusion].
Number 2011
VICE CHAIR HALCRO asked Mr. Mastriano if the department opposes
HB 128.
MR. MASTRIANO replied affirmatively. He said there are other
ways to help the farmers if they are having difficulty with the
work permit process, and he said he would be willing to work
with them to eliminate [the problems]. When asked what [that
assistance might] be, he replied that he has offered to go out
to the [Matanuska-Susitna] Valley, particularly at harvest time,
and be available for the farmers hiring help. He understood
that when [a farmer] needs help, it is needed right away.
MR. MASTRIANO explained that the same thing was encountered in
the fish processing [industry], where a number of sixteen- and
seventeen-year-olds are hired. [The division] makes itself
available; the employer goes out and hires the kids that it
thinks it's going to need for fish processing; and [the
division] signs the work permits, reviews the work, and goes out
to each of the processing plants and walks the slime line to see
where these individuals will be employed before starting work.
This affords the opportunity to point out anything hazardous to
the employer, and the employer then has the work permits ready
so when the time comes, the kids can be called to work.
Number 2061
MR. MASTRIANO pointed out that [the division] offered to do the
same thing for the farmers. [The division] will go out and make
itself available in the valley prior to harvest time and get all
the workers hired; when it's time to harvest, [the employer]
will be ready to go. He expressed a concern that if a lot of
these kids are going to be used for harvest help, and won't be
full-time employees, they may not be covered by workers'
compensation [insurance]. Workers' compensation has an
exemption for harvest and part-time help, he said, so there may
be a liability there for the farmer that he or she may not be
aware of.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO asked what percentage of these work permits
take longer than a couple of hours to process.
MR. MASTRIANO replied that this includes very few. This is the
first time he has ever had a complaint about the work permit
turnaround [time], although he has had a complaint about the
fact that [the division] requires proof of age. [The division]
has made every accommodation possible, he said, and has even
gone so far as to go out to the Alaska State Fair and sit there
for two days before the fair opens to ensure that any child who
wants to work at the fairgrounds is afforded the opportunity to
come in and get a work permit.
Number 2178
LARRY DeVILBISS, Carrot Farmer; State Board Member, Alaska Farm
Bureau; via teleconference, thanked the committee and
Representative Ogan for considering this legislation. Up until
last summer he was operating in ignorance about a lot of the
state laws, he said; there are probably not a lot of other
farmers testifying because they were shocked to find out what
the law was. By the time the education process is over, more
will be coming forward; however, at this point they are afraid
to incriminate themselves. He said when he called the DLWD last
summer and was told about the work permit conditions and
restrictions, he said he didn't have any problems; however, he
had difficulty with the forms. [His farm] is about five miles
from the end of an optic line, so the fax machine [output] is
dirty, and every time he tried to fax a permit, he'd get a fax
back from [the division] saying that it couldn't be signed
because it was illegible. He was informed that he'd have to go
to Anchorage or to an office in Wasilla.
Number 2331
MR. DeVILBISS exclaimed that he frankly threw his hands in the
air and decided it wasn't going to work because he couldn't
drive to Anchorage everytime he had a kid who wanted to work.
And a lot of times, he said, he isn't looking for workers; it's
the parents coming to him wanting their kids to start to learn
how to work. He stated that all "we" are asking for is a waiver
on requiring the commissioner's signature because a lot of these
situations come up with short notice, oftentimes racing a
rainstorm when trying to put in hay, and a person isn't going to
be messing with paperwork then.
MR. DeVILBISS said "we're" willing to take the forms, sign them,
get the proper signatures from the parents, and conform to all
of the restrictions. He mentioned that all of the other farm
states use the federal exemption, which isn't even noted on the
back of the work permit or applied in Alaska. This completely
waives the hazardous restriction for kids ages sixteen to
eighteen working in agriculture. At this time, he said, "we"
only want to be able to have the work permits on file, the same
for as payroll information and so forth.
Number 2395
MR. DeVILBISS stated that he's had many parents get angry when
he has told them that they had to get a signature from the
commissioner of labor before their kids can work for him. He
said he doesn't come to the committee with a bad attitude, but
expressed that there is a tough labor situation, which really
became apparent last year. He said he is growing organic
carrots, which require approximately 1,000 man-hours for every
acre to keep the weeds out; this doesn't have anything to do
with harvesting and bagging the carrots, he expressed. What was
typically done was to give a section of a field to a family to
tend, and [the family] would get half of the gross proceeds. He
was consoled to hear that when kids are working with their
parents in that situation, it is all right, although he said it
was difficult [to decipher] that from reading the state law.
MR. DeVILBISS said he is forwarding the federal regulation, and
the state regulations from a couple of other states, to
Representative Ogan's office; those show how difficult [Alaska
has] made it for agricultural [endeavors]. What is being asked
for is very minimal, he said, and he asked the committee to
consider the bill.
TAPE 01-40, SIDE B
Number 2474
VICE CHAIR HALCRO asked Mr. DeVilbiss whether he knows every
year when his crops are going to be harvested.
MR. DeVILBISS replied that he knows within certain parameters
but said most of it is weather-related. When asked whether he
knows the approximate timeframe, he answered affirmatively. And
when asked about Mr. Mastriano's offer to come out and make
himself available, and whether that might be better than
eliminating the provision altogether, he responded that it would
certainly help. This fall when the carrot harvest started, he
had no clue how he was going to get the carrots in. At one
point, he'd just about decided that it wouldn't happen, because
by then, he knew the kids had to have this paperwork; most of
them show up unannounced, because they've heard word-of-mouth.
He said if Mr. Mastriano happened to be there, then it would
work.
Number 2385
MR. DeVILBISS surmised that his farm would be open to Mr.
Mastriano's inspection anyway, so he didn't know why the work
permit information couldn't just be on file.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER asked how dangerous it is to harvest
carrots, and asked how the youths are being used in the carrot
harvesting process.
MR. DeVILBISS explained that almost all of the labor that goes
into harvesting carrots is in the weeding, which is done on
hands and knees; there are no chemicals, and it is tedious work.
Part of [the family's] agreement in taking care of that section
of the field is that it gets harvested as well, which involves
pulling the carrots out and putting them into 1,000-pound boxes,
which are carried into the root cellar. It is certainly not
more dangerous than [harvesting] hay. Most of the parents that
come out are not concerned and are well aware of what their
children are capable of. He reiterated that he just wants to
hold the paperwork and mail it at a later date. He said "we"
are also not asking to be exempt from workers' compensation. He
said he's never had a problem collecting workers' compensation
on seasonal farm labor.
MR. DeVILBISS expressed that he has had a few claims over the
years, and there was never a problem; his workers' compensation
says exactly what people are going to be doing and the seasonal
nature of it.
Number 2179
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked for verification from Mr.
DeVilbiss that he doesn't use conveyor belts or machinery when
harvesting carrots.
MR. DeVILBISS replied affirmatively. He said the carrots are
pulled out of the ground by hand; once in a while, however, if
the ground is hard, he'll drive a lifter through that goes
underneath the carrot bed and lifts the bed up. The only thing
that moves at any stage, he said, is when the carrots are being
bagged. There is a conveyor, which moves at one revolution
every ten minutes that moves the carrots along so they can be
stuffed into bags. Upon being asked if the processing and
packaging is as labor-intensive as the harvesting, Mr. DeVilbiss
replied that it is not as labor-intensive but goes on a lot
longer and there are less people involved. During the carrot
harvest, there are days when 100 to 250 people are working in
the field; when the carrot bagging is done, a half a dozen
people normally do it.
Number 2081
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG commented that the commissioner of labor
came before this committee and indicated that there are problems
with minors working in agriculture as it relates to conveyor
belts and other machinery, which, Representative Rokeberg said,
is of great concern to him. He asked Mr. DeVilbiss if he is
familiar with the federal requirements for minors working.
MR. DeVILBISS said he would be sending it to Representative
Ogan's office. The most educational tool that a person could
have is the work permit, which he thought could be obtained in
Juneau. He explained that on the front side of the form the
parents, the employer, and the commissioner have to sign; there
is also a requirement to sign as well a notice in big black
print up at the top that says that it must be completed and
approved before minor children begin work. The back of the form
lists all of the prohibitions for minors and has the state and
federal laws that apply. He invited Mr. Mastriano out to view
his operation and let him know what kids could do, although he
thought he was complying with [the law].
Number 1991
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said the DLWD has the ability to write
any regulations that it wants on child activities, and he said
he is concerned about that; the testimony from various
businesses throughout the state has been that it has become
almost impossible to employ underaged people.
MR. DeVILBISS offered his assistance. Upon being asked whether
he uses hazardous chemicals on his organic carrot farm, he
responded that [his farm] went completely organic this year, but
up to this time his farm only had certain fields that were
certified organic. On the organic fields, the only labor is
"hand" labor, and the same acre that takes 1,000 man-hours to
weed in an organic field can be weeded with $35 of chemicals in
a non-organic field.
Number 1883
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Mr. Mastriano if there are any
occupations in [Alaska] for which work permits are not required.
MR. MASTRIANO replied in the negative, unless the parent of the
minor owns the business. And when asked whether there are
occupations in which children under the age of fourteen can
work, he responded that these children can babysit, deliver
newspapers, and even be their own employer, such as taking his
or her father's lawnmower and cutting lawns; however, it can't
be done for a business. And when asked what would be the
difference between a child under the age of fourteen picking
carrots or working in a cannery casing cans, Mr. Mastriano said
minors under the age of sixteen can no longer work in [fish]
processing plants. Those under sixteen can work in an office in
a processing plant if the office is away from the plant.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT stated that he is not seeing the amendment
that deleted this from the statute.
Number 1806
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Mr. Mastriano if that was changed
by regulation.
MR. MASTRIANO remarked that he believed so.
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES said if this legislation passes, this
doesn't just address farms that don't use a lot of equipment;
this would open it up to any farm that uses industrial equipment
or anything else. He asked whether that is correct.
MR. MASTRIANO responded affirmatively and said it would affect
farms all over the state.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO closed public testimony on HB 128.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said this fits right in with the issue
of working minors and the training wage situation. He said
maybe people just throw their hands up in the air and don't even
want to deal with the DLWD. He said probably most of the
farmers in the state are knowingly or unknowingly breaking the
law because of the difficulties. He said [the legislature] had
better look into that. This needs to be expanded beyond just
agriculture, and this is a critical industry that [the
legislature] needs to be able to support. [The state] has been
so concerned about protecting people that [people] can't even
get jobs.
Number 1685
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT stated that he agrees with the concerns
expressed by Representative Rokeberg; however, even if the
permitting process is eliminated, the same problems will exist
because most of those farmers won't know the parameters under
which children under eighteen can be hired. Unless the
restrictions are on the permit itself when receiving it, most of
the farmers will still be operating outside the confines of the
law.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG emphasized that he would like to know
what the federal law is and how it is handled. He said he
thinks it is up to this committee, if it can come up with a new
format outlining the commissioners' responsibilities. He said
he thought Mr. DeVilbiss was suggesting that the names be
submitted [to the division] and then kept on record along with a
description of the type of employment. And if there is a clear
need for the DLWD to look into it, [then that can happen], but
just to say no or delay the process, in his opinion, doesn't
work.
Number 1611
VICE CHAIR HALCRO said when he first read the bill packet he
thought it was alarming because there was an assertion here that
by the time [the work permit] worked its way through the
bureaucracy the harvest season was over; yet, the testimony from
Mr. Mastriano was that it takes a couple of hours. If something
is faxed in and there is an immediate response, or if the only
reason one doesn't get an immediate response is because the form
is either incomplete or illegible, he said he doesn't see why
[the legislature] should eliminate all of these important
protections. And as Mr. Mastriano stated, [the division] has
denied applications in the past where minors were working around
hazardous chemicals or machinery. He said he doesn't see the
need for it. There was only testimony from one person, and this
person had problems with a fax machine. [If this legislation
passes] it would eliminate all of the requirements and
conditions allowing any minor who is at least fourteen and who
can get consent from his or her parents to start working on a
farm without any oversight from the DLWD.
Number 1560
VICE CHAIR HALCRO said he agrees with less bureaucracy; however,
this puts some protections in place to protect those under
eighteen working in environments that may or may not be
hazardous. He said he doesn't see the overwhelming need.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said he agreed with Representative Rokeberg
and thought that a lot of people are out there breaking the law
who feel as [Mr. DeVilbiss] does. There are enough factors
working against farmers without having to deal with a
bureaucracy.
Number 1471
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he suspected that Representative Meyer
was correct. When an entire year's income is lying in a field
and [the farmer] is required to fax 100 work permits [for
minors] to pull carrots out of the ground, how asinine is that,
he asked. He said in one night, a whole year's income could
freeze in the ground, and 100 faxes have to be faxed in to get
help? Some of these people are the biggest risk takers in the
world, he exclaimed - they and fisherman.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO expressed his understanding, but asked if
throwing out the entire set of regulations as it pertains to
getting approval for those under seventeen is the way to do it.
Mr. DeVilbiss had stated that he knows every year when harvest
season is, he has ample time to plan, and as Mr. Mastriano
testified, it takes a couple of hours for turnaround. And Mr.
Mastriano has demonstrated the ability to go out and process
applications right there on-site. However, when getting down to
the question of whether regulations should be eliminated, he
said, "No." Not everyone has the same type of farm, and
eliminating these regulations will put workers at risk, without
proper protection. He said he isn't sure where the headache is.
He said if it is being said that 100 workers are going to be
needed immediately, then any business is going to need to plan a
little more in advance.
Number 1237
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES asked about the hiring pattern.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said it depends on the situation; the
weather could change very quickly, and when that happens, he
bets that the farmers are just getting on the phone and calling
workers. He said he would like to see if there is some way to
streamline this. For example, at the beginning of the season [a
minor] applies for a permit, there is sign-off on what [the
employer] can do with the [minors]; everyone knows the rules,
and protections are in place. Once that is done, [the farm
owner] is subject to inspection. If the parents want to let
their kid work, why should the state become the parent, he
asked.
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES requested verification of his understanding
that fourteen-year-olds can't do this work without being under
the direct supervision of their parents unless the parent owns
the business.
Number 1114
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to Section 2(c), which read in
part:
A minor who is at least fourteen years of age may be
employed in agriculture without the written
authorization of the commissioner [under (a)] of this
section if: [(1) the employer] receive[s] consent form
[(A) both] the minor's parents or guardian[s]; or from
paragraph (2): the minor performs the work in the
physical presence of one of the minors presence or
[legal guardians].
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN explained that it is "either or." [Minors]
could [work] as defined under subsection (c) or under paragraph
(2).
Number 1075
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said this bill removes the commissioner's
responsibility to sign off on the work permit, but it doesn't
eliminate statutory requirements regarding the hours or the
times that minors can work. He said if his livelihood was
dependant on the time of year that he could pick his crops, he
would probably "throw caution to the wind" on those statutes.
He expressed that there are probably a lot of farmers out there
who are not aware of the statutory requirements or the
permitting requirement. He asked Mr. Mastriano whether the work
permit includes a copy of the statutes dealing with the five or
six areas that [the committee] has been talking about. He also
asked whether the data on the permit is used for statistical
analysis to determine how many seasonal farm workers [Alaska]
has.
MR. MASTRIANO said he knows of no statistical data that is used
or gleaned from the process. [The division] keeps copies of the
work permits, and the original is sent back to the employer
along with the proof of age if an original birth certificate was
used. When asked how long the work permits are good for, he
stated that a [new work permit is required] every time a minor
obtains a new job. He said each work permit is job-specific,
and [the division] needs to know that the minor isn't in a life-
threatening or hazardous situation.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT, referring to Mr. DeVilbiss' situation,
asked Mr. Mastriano if he would be authorized to go to the high
school and recruit so that when the picking season began, Mr.
DeVilbiss would just call [the minors] to work.
Number 0879
MR. MASTRIANO commented that that is exactly what the fish
processors do. [Processors] get a contact number from these
people and call them in when they are needed. He said they can
certainly get the work permits on file, and [the permits] should
be in place before the child starts to work. When asked how
long the work permits are good for, and whether a farmer could
submit work permits in May for the picking season in September,
he replied affirmatively, as long as the child is "your"
employee. [The division] has several employers that hire kids
at fourteen with the same work permit; the duties don't change,
and the employee is still working there at age sixteen or
seventeen under the same work permit. The only thing that may
have changed is the rate of pay, which can be corrected on the
work permit.
MR. MASTRIANO explained that the only time the work permit
ceases to be any good is if the employee quits the job and goes
to work elsewhere.
Number 0685
VICE CHAIR HALCRO asked Mr. Mastriano about compliance from
other areas of agricultural.
MR. MASTRIANO said he thought that Representative Ogan was
probably right: there are probably a number of farmers who
don't submit work permits. There are a number of employers that
don't believe in the work permit process, he said, and the only
time [the division] finds that out is by going out and
investigating. If a minor is found working without a work
permit, the employer is given the appropriate paperwork in order
to get them right with the law. He said the division has no
penalty under statute; however, if it is a hazardous order, [the
DLWD] turns it into the United States Department of Labor
(USDOL), and [USDOL] would also do an investigation.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Mr. Mastriano on what grounds work
permits are denied.
MR. MASTRIANO clarified that it could be either from [an
inspection done or from the information on the work permit], but
most of the time it is from the information that the employer
puts down. For example, [the division] has had a number of
fifteen-year-olds employed in restaurants that have a restaurant
designation. They can't be employed in that [category], he
explained, under the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board (ABC)
rules until sixteen years of age. Generally, [the division]
stamps "denied" on the application and calls the employer to
inform him or her of the reason that the application was denied.
If it is [denied] due to [a restriction on] certain equipment
and the employer can allow the kid to do something else, [the
division] will ask the employer to resubmit the work permit
after eliminating the hazardous order on the permit. In that
case, there is a box on the permit showing an amended work
permit.
Number 0532
MR. MASTRIANO, upon being asked if that is done over the phone
or out in the field, responded that both are done. If it is a
faxed application and can be addressed over the phone, that can
be done; however, sometimes [the division] will go out and do an
inspection on-site. Oftentimes, the employer tells [the
division] about a piece of equipment that [the division] isn't
sure about, so the inspector will go out and do an inspection to
determine whether the piece of equipment is hazardous. Since
Alaska uses the hazardous order guidelines set forth by the
USDOL, if there are any questions [the division] will contact
the USDOL's child labor representative and explain the
equipment.
MR. MASTRIANO, responding to a question about the number of work
permits issued by the DLWD last year, stated that there were
close to 11,000. And he surmised that less than 200 were
denied. He reiterated that a minor can't work in a restaurant
with a restaurant designation until sixteen years of age, and he
stressed that this is not a DLWD regulation but an ABC
regulation.
Number 0367
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES said the statute states that only the
commissioner of labor can sign off on work permits. He asked if
it could be the commissioner's designee.
MR. MASTRIANO responded affirmatively. He said there is a
designee in the offices in Juneau, Fairbanks, and Anchorage.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he wanted to hold the bill over to
compare Alaska's work permits to those in federal regulations,
to possibly come up with a more streamlined system that might
save money.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO asked Representative Rokeberg if he was
volunteering to chair a subcommittee.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied affirmatively.
VICE CHAIR HALCRO announced that HB 128 was being sent to a
subcommittee chaired by Representative Rokeberg that would also
include Representatives Meyer and Hayes.
[HB 128 was held over.]
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Labor and Commerce Committee meeting was adjourned at 5:00 p.m.
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