Legislature(2019 - 2020)BARNES 124

03/18/2019 03:15 PM LABOR & COMMERCE

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Audio Topic
03:15:57 PM Start
03:17:10 PM Confirmation Hearing(s): Real Estate Commission
03:52:25 PM HB48
04:11:39 PM HB44
04:35:47 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Consideration of the Governor's Appointees: Real TELECONFERENCED
Estate Commission
-- Public Testimony <Time Limit May Be Set> --
*+ HB 48 TEMP STATE EMPLOYEES IN PART EXEMPT SVCE TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
*+ HB 44 AUTOMATED TELLER MACHINES: FEES TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Public Testimony --
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
          HOUSE LABOR AND COMMERCE STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                         
                         March 18, 2019                                                                                         
                           3:15 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
                             DRAFT                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Adam Wool, Co-Chair                                                                                              
Representative Gabrielle LeDoux, Co-Chair                                                                                       
Representative Zack Fields                                                                                                      
Representative Sara Hannan                                                                                                      
Representative Louise Stutes                                                                                                    
Representative Dave Talerico                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Josh Revak                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CONFIRMATION HEARING(S):                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Real Estate Commission                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Michael Tavoliero - Anchorage                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     - CONFIRMATION(S) ADVANCED                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 48                                                                                                               
"An Act  removing from  the exempt service  of the  state persons                                                               
who are employed  in a professional capacity to  make a temporary                                                               
or special  inquiry, study, or  examination as authorized  by the                                                               
governor  and including  those persons  in  the partially  exempt                                                               
service of the state."                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD & HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 44                                                                                                               
"An Act relating to fees for using an automated teller machine;                                                                 
and providing for an effective date."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD & HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB  48                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: TEMP STATE EMPLOYEES IN PART EXEMPT SVCE                                                                           
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) WILSON                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
02/20/19       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/20/19       (H)       L&C, FIN                                                                                               
03/18/19       (H)       L&C AT 3:15 PM BARNES 124                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB  44                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: AUTOMATED TELLER MACHINES: FEES                                                                                    
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) ORTIZ                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
02/20/19       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/20/19       (H)       L&C                                                                                                    
03/18/19       (H)       L&C AT 3:15 PM BARNES 124                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL TAVOLIERO, Appointee                                                                                                    
Real Estate Commission                                                                                                          
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as appointee to the Real Estate                                                                
Commission.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TAMMIE WILSON                                                                                                    
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  As prime sponsor, presented HB 48.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REMOND HENDERSON, Staff                                                                                                         
Representative Tammie Wilson                                                                                                    
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions during the hearing on HB                                                              
48, on behalf of Representative Wilson, prime sponsor.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAN ORTIZ                                                                                                        
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  As prime sponsor, presented HB 44.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CAROLINE HAMP, Staff                                                                                                            
Representative Dan Ortiz                                                                                                        
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions during the hearing on HB                                                              
44, on behalf of Representative Ortiz, prime sponsor.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
BRUCE RENARD, Executive Director                                                                                                
National ATM Council, Inc. (NAC)                                                                                                
Jacksonville, Florida                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified and answered questions during the                                                              
hearing on HB 44.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
PAUL THOMAS, Owner                                                                                                              
Alaska Cache Liquor Inc                                                                                                         
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified during the hearing on HB 44.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SARAH OATES, President/CEO                                                                                                      
Alaska Cabaret, Hotel, Restaurant and Retailers Association                                                                     
(CHARR)                                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 44.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:15:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  GABRIELLE LEDOUX  called the  House Labor  and Commerce                                                             
Standing   Committee    meeting   to    order   at    3:15   p.m.                                                               
Representatives  Talerico, Fields,  Stutes,  Hannan, LeDoux,  and                                                               
Wool were present at the call to order.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
^CONFIRMATION HEARING(S):  Real Estate Commission                                                                               
        CONFIRMATION HEARING(S):  Real Estate Commission                                                                    
                                                                                                                              
3:17:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX announced that the  first order of business would                                                               
be the confirmation hearing on the Real Estate Commission.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:17:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL  TAVOLIERO,  Appointee,  Real Estate  Commission,  stated                                                               
that he has  been a real estate licensee since  2008.  He pointed                                                               
out that  the real estate  industry accounts for a  large portion                                                               
of the  state's economy.   The real  estate industry is  not just                                                               
about selling  property and  making money, he  said, "there  is a                                                               
much deeper emotional  and pragmatic aspect to our  industry.  It                                                               
is about  bringing people together  and giving them the  tools to                                                               
address  the social  and  economic  issues in  their  life."   He                                                               
opined  that  buying  a  house  is  more  than  just  a  property                                                               
investment, "it  is really about home  ownership, family, future,                                                               
and happiness.  It is about  continuing to improve the quality of                                                               
life in Alaska  with the expansion of a  professional real estate                                                               
community."   He related  that he has  worked in  both commercial                                                               
and  residential and  done large  and small  investments, further                                                               
noting that  the real estate  industry creates thousands  of jobs                                                               
and  is a  vital  part  of community  development  and growth  in                                                               
Alaska.   He suggested that  "accomplishing these  goals requires                                                               
strong   partnerships  between   the  state   legislature,  local                                                               
government,  and the  real  estate industry."    He concluded  by                                                               
stating  that  efforts made  by  the  Real Estate  Commission  to                                                               
develop professional standards  are "proudly substantial", adding                                                               
that   "professional  investigations   and  remedies   which  are                                                               
meaningful  and  fare to  the  public  must  be foremost  in  the                                                               
commission's mindset."                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS,  referencing an  email Mr.  Tavoliero sent                                                               
to  the  legislature  that  featured a  Facebook  post  by  Carol                                                               
Carmen,  asked  if  he  was   communicating  in  his  role  as  a                                                               
gubernatorial  appointee to  the Real  Estate Commission  when he                                                               
wrote, "Yes, totally agree.   But the legislature, especially the                                                               
house majority and  senate leadership, are deaf  to this opinion.                                                               
Therein lies the  frailty of opaque state government  in the dark                                                               
wet recesses of a cave called Juneau."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO,  in response to  Representative Fields,  asked how                                                               
that  would  impact his  ability  to  serve  on the  Real  Estate                                                               
Commission.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS  questioned  whether Mr.  Tavoliero  wrote                                                               
that comment as  a representative of the governor or  if it was a                                                               
personal opinion.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO acknowledged that it was a "private" opinion.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS asked  for Mr.  Tavoliero to  elaborate on                                                               
the meaning  of "the  frailty of opaque  state government  in the                                                               
dark wet recesses of a cave called Juneau."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO   opined  that  the  government   should  be  more                                                               
transparent, adding "that's why you and I serve the way we do."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS,  referencing Senator Kiehl's reply  to Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero's   aforementioned   email,   in  which   Kiehl   wrote                                                               
"decisions are made by representatives  and senators who Alaskans                                                               
elect  and send  to the  state capitol."   Representative  Fields                                                               
inquired as  to the  meaning of  Mr. Tavoliero's  response, which                                                               
read, "LOL says the hound as he runs with the fox."                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO replied  "we've got  to  cover both  sides of  the                                                               
coin.  We've got to serve the state."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS  repeated  his question,  asking  for  the                                                               
meaning of  the phrase "LOL  says the hound  as he runs  with the                                                               
fox."                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO said  it is an old Sam Ervin  comment that was used                                                               
during President Nixon's investigation.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS  asked  Mr.   Tavoliero  to  whom  he  was                                                               
comparing Senator Kiehl.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO asserted that it was a comment not a comparison.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS  said  he   was  not  familiar  with  that                                                               
reference, but  it sounded like  a metaphor.  He  maintained that                                                               
he was just  trying to figure out the meaning  of Mr. Tavoliero's                                                               
comment.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO stated that his  job was to promote public interest                                                               
and that's all he was doing.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS   reread  the   phrase  in   question  and                                                               
suggested that  Mr. Tavoliero  was comparing  Senator Kiehl  to a                                                               
hound.  He asked if this was  true or if Mr. Tavoliero was trying                                                               
to say something else.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO replied that it was  just a comment on the need for                                                               
transparency.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS questioned  how "says the hound  as he runs                                                               
with the fox" signifies transparency.   He asked Mr. Tavoliero to                                                               
explain the meaning behind that phrase.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO maintained  that the  meaning was  about "the  big                                                               
picture"  and  the government  needing  to  be more  transparent,                                                               
adding  that  he   was  "at  a  loss"  and  unsure   as  to  what                                                               
Representative Fields was asking him.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:25:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX  acknowledged that Mr. Tavoliero  said the phrase                                                               
was an old Sam Ervin statement.   The problem, she said, was that                                                               
nobody  knew what  it  meant.   She  asked  him,  once again,  to                                                               
explain the  meaning behind "LOL says  the hound as he  runs with                                                               
the fox."                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  reiterated that  he was alluding  to the  need for                                                               
more transparency, noting "it's about  the entire process that we                                                               
serve for our state."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS concluded that  the meaning was incoherent.                                                               
He  asked Mr.  Tavoliero  to explain  the  connection to  Richard                                                               
Nixon and Sam Ervin in greater detail.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  purported that  Sam Ervin  was the  prosecutor for                                                               
Watergate, adding that one of  the difficulties he was faced with                                                               
was "the opaqueness"  of the federal government.   After all, Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero opined,  there were many  things done wrong.   He asked                                                               
Representative Fields if he agreed.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS reread  Mr. Tavoliero's original statement,                                                               
"therein lies the frailty of  opaque state government in the dark                                                               
wet recesses of  a cave called Juneau" and  questioned whether he                                                               
was suggesting that  state government is comparable  to the level                                                               
of  criminality that  existed in  Washington DC  under the  Nixon                                                               
administration.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO   restated  that  the  suggestion   was  for  more                                                               
transparency.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS  noted that  he was  not enlightened  as to                                                               
what "says the hound as he runs with the fox" means.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:27:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN pointed  out  that  Mr. Tavoliero's  "very                                                               
abbreviated" resume showed  that he had been a  real estate agent                                                               
since  2008.   She asked  him if  he was  working as  a full-time                                                               
realtor during that 10-year period.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO answered yes.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN  sought  clarification   as  to  what  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero  did for  work  during  the 30  years  between being  a                                                               
paralegal and becoming a realtor.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO replied that he had been a small business owner.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN asked  Mr. Tavoliero  to elaborate  on the                                                               
kinds of businesses that he had owned.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  explained that he  operated a  transmission repair                                                               
shop for 15 years, as well as other "odd jobs" during that time.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN,  referencing Mr.  Tavoliero's 10  years of                                                               
experience, asked what his vision and  goals would be as a member                                                               
of the Real  Estate Commission.  She inquired as  to how he would                                                               
bring more transparency to state government.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  stated that he  would promote a stronger  level of                                                               
professionalism in  the real estate  industry, while at  the same                                                               
time  supporting and  bringing in  new licensees.   He  explained                                                               
that last year  there were licensees lost due to  lack of renewal                                                               
and he would like to encourage  more people to join the industry.                                                               
He  related that  the  single  most important  part  of the  Real                                                               
Estate  Commission is  protecting  the public  and  serving as  a                                                               
"consumer  protection  group,"  adding  that he  took  that  very                                                               
seriously.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN asked  Mr.  Tavoliero if,  during his  ten                                                               
years as  a real  estate agent  in Alaska,  he had  been involved                                                               
with the Realtors Political Action  Committee (RPAC) or served on                                                               
their board in any capacity.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO replied that had  worked with their board and their                                                               
"political process," further  noting that he paid  his dues every                                                               
year.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN sought  clarification  as  to whether  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero had  ever served  on RPAC's  board or  political action                                                               
committee, or if he had just  been buying and selling real estate                                                               
and paying dues to their organization.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  explained that  he had  served on  their political                                                               
policy board as  well as their ethics board, but  never on RPAC's                                                               
actual board itself.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:31:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR WOOL  asked Mr. Tavoliero  to explain the makeup  of the                                                               
board.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  sought clarification as to  whether Representative                                                               
Wool was referring to the "Anchorage real estate board."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR WOOL remarked  that he was referring to  the state board                                                               
that  Mr.  Tavoliero  claimed  to have  worked  with  on  various                                                               
subcommittees.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO explained  that there  are several  boards through                                                               
the National  Association of Realtors (NAR)  that are established                                                               
in Alaska.  He  stated that the only one he  had ever worked with                                                               
on a peripheral level was the Anchorage real estate board.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  WOOL  asked if  Mr.  Tavoliero  was familiar  with  the                                                               
Alaska board of realtors.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO maintained that he  was not familiar with the board                                                               
of realtors.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  WOOL  inquired  as  to  what  part  of  the  state  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero worked in.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO replied  that he  worked  in Southcentral  Alaska;                                                               
Anchorage, Eagle River,  Chugiak, and the valley.   He added that                                                               
he had  worked in Fairbanks as  well.  He disclosed  that he owns                                                               
property in North  Pole, Alaska and was developing  homes in that                                                               
area.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:33:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STUTES  asked Mr.  Tavoliero  what  board he  was                                                               
currently being appointed to.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO answered, "the Alaska Real Estate Commission."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STUTES, in  response to  Mr. Tavoliero,  asked if                                                               
that was a statement or a question.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO reiterated  that his appointment was  to the Alaska                                                               
Real Estate Commission.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:34:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX  inquired as  to  what  the Alaska  Real  Estate                                                               
Commission does.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO  opined  that  it   protects  the  public  through                                                               
regulation for consumer protection  and enhances and develops the                                                               
profession  itself.   He added  that testing,  fees, and  all the                                                               
general provisions for licensing  are done through the commission                                                               
as well.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX,  referencing Mr.  Tavoliero's resume,  asked for                                                               
the names of  the businesses he owned or people  he worked for in                                                               
the 30-year gap between attending  San Francisco State University                                                               
and becoming a real estate agent.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO  replied  that he  owned  the  AAMCO  Transmission                                                               
franchise in Anchorage for several years.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX asked Mr. Tavoliero  to clarify the dates that he                                                               
owned the franchise.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  stated that it  was in  the 1980s, after  which he                                                               
worked transmission repair.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX  questioned  whether  Mr.  Tavoliero  owned  the                                                               
businesses himself.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO answered yes.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX  asked  Mr.  Tavoliero  for  the  names  of  his                                                               
transmission businesses.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO relayed that he owned A Accurate Transmission.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX inquired as to how long he owned that business.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO replied that he owned  it until 2005 or 2006, after                                                               
which he went  on disability and then became a  real estate agent                                                               
in 2008.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX asked  Mr.  Tavoliero if  he  had ever  declared                                                               
bankruptcy on any of his businesses.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  answered no  and asked how  that would  affect his                                                               
ability to serve on the Real Estate Commission.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX reminded  Mr.  Tavoliero that  she  was the  one                                                               
asking questions.   She asked him  again if he had  ever declared                                                               
bankruptcy.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO stated that he had not.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:38:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR WOOL  asserted that the  conversation started  out about                                                               
transparency  and  the  lack thereof,  however,  every  time  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero  was asked  a  question the  committee  members had  to                                                               
"pull teeth" to  get basic information.  He pointed  out that Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero's  resume  was  scant   and  that  his  responses  were                                                               
lacking.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   HANNAN   addressed  Mr.   Tavoliero's   property                                                               
development, asking  him if he  owned or was partnering  with the                                                               
contracting business  that was  developing the  homes.   She also                                                               
inquired as to the name of the contracting business.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO replied that he  was pursuing that project with his                                                               
wife for  retirement purposes.   He explained  that they  found a                                                               
contractor in  the Fairbanks area  and have  built one home.   He                                                               
added that he hoped to build two or three more.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN asked  if his use of a  real estate license                                                               
was important in  that transaction, whether it was  in the rental                                                               
process or the search for a contractor.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  stated that he does  get a commission as  a result                                                               
of  the completed  project  but  that he's  not  involved in  the                                                               
rental process.  He noted that  he and his wife contracted with a                                                               
property manager.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN  inquired as to Mr.  Tavoliero's opinion on                                                               
the statewide residential building  code proposals that have come                                                               
up in pieces of legislation over the past few years.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO said  that  he  was unsure  because  he relied  on                                                               
contractors for that.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:40:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX   remarked  that   she  was  astounded   by  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero's last  answer, adding that  it seemed to  be something                                                               
that real estate agents might know  about.  She pointed out that,                                                               
as an  associate broker, Mr.  Tavoliero must work  under someone.                                                               
She asked him who that was.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO  reported that  he  worked  for Core  Real  Estate                                                               
Group, LLC.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX  asked where  it's headquartered  out of  and who                                                               
the principal broker is.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO stated  that Core  Real  Estate Group,  LLC is  in                                                               
Eagle River, Alaska and the  brokers are Derek Hert and Anneliese                                                               
Cooper.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX  asked Mr.  Tavoliero  how  long he  had  worked                                                               
there.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  explained that  he helped  start the  business and                                                               
has worked there for three years.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX sought  clarification  as to  who Mr.  Tavoliero                                                               
worked for prior to working for Core Real Estate Group, LLC.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO revealed that he  previously worked for EXIT Realty                                                               
and then  a company called  Signature.   He added that  both were                                                               
located in Eagle  River, Alaska; however, he was  unsure of their                                                               
current status.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:42:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS addressed  Mr. Tavoliero's Twitter account,                                                               
referencing  a  (tweet)  by  Paul   Joseph  Watson  that  he  had                                                               
retweeted on June  4, 2017, which read, "Theresa  May says Terror                                                               
ideology is 'a  perversion of Islam.'  She  obviously hasn't read                                                               
the Q'uran."  He asked if,  in retweeting that, Mr. Tavoliero was                                                               
trying  to  say  that  terrorist  ideology  is  part  of  Islamic                                                               
teachings.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO alleged that he did not remember tweeting that.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS   referenced  another  retweet   from  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero's  account,   which  read,  "Make  no   mistake,  these                                                               
medieval  butchers won't  stop.   Islam  is  not compatible  with                                                               
Western Civilization."   He  further noted  two more  tweets from                                                               
Mr. Tavoliero's account  on May 27, 2017, which  read, "You can't                                                               
be polite  or tolerable of those  who blindly and deftly  want to                                                               
kill  you.   Our  only option  is to  destroy  them" followed  by                                                               
"People of  Mindanao support President Duterte's  efforts to kill                                                               
all  the terrorists!"   Representative  Fields  pointed out  that                                                               
Rodrigo  Duterte   has  been  widely  criticized   for  murdering                                                               
civilians in his country.  He  asked Mr. Tavoliero if he believed                                                               
that Islam is a threat to  Western civilization and, to quote Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero's tweet, "our only option is to destroy them."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  maintained that  he did  not remember  the Twitter                                                               
comments  and sought  clarification  as to  the  question he  was                                                               
being asked.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS re-summarized  Mr. Tavoliero's  tweets and                                                               
questioned whether  Mr. Tavoliero believed that  violence against                                                               
Muslims is acceptable,  as some of his tweets  suggest that Islam                                                               
is a threat to western civilization.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO answered, "no it's not."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS asked  Mr.  Tavoliero why  he would  write                                                               
those things.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO alleged that he  had a "Filipino virtual assistant"                                                               
setup  his account  who he  believed  to be  responsible for  the                                                               
tweets in question, adding that he did not remember them.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS sought  to  clarify  Mr. Tavoliero's  last                                                               
statement, asking  if he  had a social  media manager  that wrote                                                               
things for him.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TAVOLIERO   restated  that   he  had  a   "Filipino  virtual                                                               
assistant"  who  helped  set  up   a  website  and  social  media                                                               
accounts.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS asked who that individual was.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  maintained that the virtual  assistant only worked                                                               
for  him  for a  short  period  of time  and  that  he could  not                                                               
remember their name.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS  asked if that  person wrote tweets  on Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero's behalf.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO answered, "not to my knowledge."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:47:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX  pointed  out   the  inconsistency  between  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero's statements, in which  he blamed his virtual assistant                                                               
for tweeting things he didn't agree  with on his behalf, and then                                                               
said he didn't  know anything about that.  She  added that it was                                                               
confusing.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO  agreed that  it was confusing  because he  did not                                                               
remember the tweets.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:48:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS  remarked that,  in closing, the  tweets in                                                               
question  seemed to  come from  the same  Michael Tavoliero  with                                                               
whom they were  speaking to, adding that they  are public record.                                                               
He said he was left  confused about whether Mr. Tavoliero thought                                                               
exterminating mass  numbers of people from  a particular religion                                                               
was appropriate, which is "disturbing."                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. TAVOLIERO declared that  Representative Fields comment wasn't                                                               
appropriate and "how dare you say that."                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FIELDS read  "You can't be polite  or tolerable of                                                               
those who blindly  and deftly want to kill you.   Our only option                                                               
is to  destroy them" and pointed  out that now Mr.  Tavoliero was                                                               
trying to  say he did not  agree with that statement,  which came                                                               
from  his Twitter  account.   He remarked  that this  was a  more                                                               
reasonable position than "supporting wholesale murder."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:49:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX opened  public  testimony.   After  ascertaining                                                               
that no one wished to testify, she closed public testimony.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR WOOL reiterated that the  conversation started out about                                                               
transparency,  however, more  they spoke  with Mr.  Tavoliero the                                                               
less  transparent he  was   He related  that they  had to  "drill                                                               
deep" to  get basic resume  information and  found a lot  of work                                                               
experience that was not on Mr. Tavoliero's resume.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS read  the following  from Mr.  Tavoliero's                                                               
resume, "I bring business experience to  the table.  My skills in                                                               
negotiations,  management,  relationship-building, and  community                                                               
outreach  will  benefit  all"  and   reminded  members  that  Mr.                                                               
Tavoliero was  comparing the  legislature, in  particular Senator                                                               
Kiehl,  to  a  criminal  investigation  in  Washington  DC.    He                                                               
expressed concern  that Mr. Tavoliero emailed  "flippant" remarks                                                               
to  all  state  elected  officials  and  displayed  a  record  of                                                               
espousing violent  ideology which, he opined,  is not appropriate                                                               
for  someone in  a  public  position.   He  concluded by  echoing                                                               
Representative Wool's  comments regarding Mr. Tavoliero'  lack of                                                               
concern, knowledge,  and experience  that would  seem appropriate                                                               
for this position.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  WOOL  made a  motion  to  advance the  confirmation  of                                                               
Michael   Tavoliero,  appointee   to  the   Alaska  Real   Estate                                                               
Commission, to the joint session  for consideration.  He reminded                                                               
members  that  signing  the  reports  regarding  appointments  to                                                               
boards  and commissions  in no  way reflects  individual members'                                                               
approval  or   disapproval  of  the  appointees,   and  that  the                                                               
nominations  are merely  forwarded  to the  full legislature  for                                                               
confirmation or rejection.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX reminded  listeners  that the  committee has  no                                                               
choice other  than to  recommend appointees  be forwarded  to the                                                               
joint session for consideration;  therefore, Mr. Tavoliero's name                                                               
was forwarded.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
        HB  48- TEMP STATE EMPLOYEES IN PART EXEMPT SVCE                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:52:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX announced  that the next order  of business would                                                               
be HOUSE  BILL NO. 48, "An  Act removing from the  exempt service                                                               
of the state persons who  are employed in a professional capacity                                                               
to make a temporary or  special inquiry, study, or examination as                                                               
authorized by  the governor  and including  those persons  in the                                                               
partially exempt service of the state."                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:52:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TAMMIE WILSON, Alaska  State Legislature, as prime                                                               
sponsor  of HB  48, introduced  the bill  and read  the following                                                               
sponsor statement [original punctuation provided]:                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     AS 39.25.110(9)  was supposed to allow  the governor to                                                                    
     appoint  someone   for  some  "temporary   and  special                                                                    
     inquiry". Because  they are  temporary, exempts  do not                                                                    
     get PERS  or regular  State leave, health  insurance or                                                                    
     other  State benefits.  However,  the  statute has  not                                                                    
     been used in  that manner. It has instead  been used to                                                                    
     establish   positions  without   the   intent  of   the                                                                    
     positions  being temporary,  which  would then  entitle                                                                    
     employees to PERS and all other benefits.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     The purpose of  HB 48 is to  discontinue the historical                                                                    
     practice   by  the   Executive  Branch   of  using   AS                                                                    
     39.25.110(9)  to  unilaterally  establish  highly  paid                                                                    
     executive  level temporary  exempt positions  that have                                                                    
     no salary limits. There  are positions established many                                                                    
     years ago  using this statute  that still  exist today.                                                                    
     Some  are  unbudgeted  and  do  not  appear  in  agency                                                                    
     position  counts. Several  attempts have  been made  to                                                                    
     obtain a  complete list of these  positions and current                                                                    
     salary   levels,   but   these   attempts   have   been                                                                    
     unsuccessful.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     HB  48 is  intended to  eliminate the  establishment of                                                                    
     "temporary  exempt" positions  and instead  place these                                                                    
     positions in the partially  exempt service. Persons may                                                                    
     be "appointed" to  partially exempt positions, however,                                                                    
     they will  be subject to  salary limits like  all other                                                                    
     state employees.  HB 48  will force  the administration                                                                    
     to be  more transparent and  allow all employees  to be                                                                    
     treated fairly.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON  addressed the 0-dollar fiscal  note, which                                                               
she  said  could  be interpreted  as  the  administration  either                                                               
attempting  to  withhold  their exempt  positions  or  expressing                                                               
indifference because it doesn't impact them.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:54:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN  expressed concern that the  words "exempt"                                                               
and "temporary  exempt" were being  used interchangeably.   After                                                               
looking at  the statute, she  said, it appeared that  the current                                                               
bill  speaks to  those  under AS  39.25.110(09) [Exempt  Service;                                                               
persons employed in  a professional capacity to  make a temporary                                                               
or special  inquiry, study  or examination  as authorized  by the                                                               
governor],  which   are  temporary;  however,  they   were  being                                                               
referred to as exempt.   She continued by saying that referencing                                                               
those positions as exempt is  precarious because exempt positions                                                               
are a much  broader category.  Alaska's  deputy attorney general,                                                               
for  example,  is  an  exempt position  and  isn't  temporary  in                                                               
nature.  She  asked if the term or phrasing  for that subcategory                                                               
should be "temporaries."                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON acknowledged that  it was one specific area                                                               
of statute  that would be  eliminated and deferred to  her staff,                                                               
Remond Henderson.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
3:56:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REMOND  HENDERSON, Staff,  Representative  Tammie Wilson,  Alaska                                                               
State  Legislature, on  behalf  of  Representative Wilson,  prime                                                               
sponsor of HB  48, stated that the current  bill was specifically                                                               
designed  to  address  only   those  temporary  exempt  positions                                                               
established by AS 39.25.110(09).                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN   surmised  that  the  current   bill  was                                                               
intended for political appointees that  were hired for a specific                                                               
purpose.  She suggested including  a timeframe that would dictate                                                               
the  length  of  their  temporary   employment.    She  asked  if                                                               
Representative Wilson had considered that.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON replied  that she  was unsure  because the                                                               
administration  was not  responsive.   She reflected  on a  phone                                                               
call from an  anonymous caller who informed her of  a position in                                                               
Anchorage that was  being paid an "exorbitant" amount  and had no                                                               
Position  Control  Number  (PCN),  adding  that  this  particular                                                               
position  was  not   political.    She  explained   that  if  the                                                               
governor's office had  extra money and wanted to  hire someone as                                                               
a  temporary  employee  there  would  be  no  way  to  find  that                                                               
position.   Alternatively,  they could  be  put into  a PCN  and,                                                               
unlike others  who wouldn't go  through this  process, designated                                                               
to  the correct  job classification  with a  corresponding salary                                                               
and benefits.   However, under AS 39.25.110(09)  someone could be                                                               
making  twice as  much as  another individual  with the  same job                                                               
title, solely because they were  hired by the governor under that                                                               
specific part  of the statute.   She opined that this  should not                                                               
be happening, and it was time for it to end.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HANNAN  related  that she  shared  Representative                                                               
Wilson's concern.   She restated her suggestion of  putting a one                                                               
or  two-year  timeframe  on  temporary  exempt  positions.    She                                                               
pointed out  that the  process to make  a position  exempt exists                                                               
under  that  same  statute,  which  involves  going  through  the                                                               
personnel board, classification, and a  public notice period.  It                                                               
still allows an individual to  be appointed, she noted, and avoid                                                               
the  probationary   period  that  one  would   encounter  with  a                                                               
classified  job.    She  questioned  whether  defining  how  long                                                               
'temporary' was would mitigate those  temporary hires that end up                                                               
working for 10-years off the books with no PCN.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON emphasized  that  she  was more  concerned                                                               
with  the hidden  employee  names and  funds  than the  temporary                                                               
aspect.   She offered  her belief  that, originally,  the statute                                                               
was for projects that required  hiring someone for a short amount                                                               
of  time   who  would  be   paid  more  for   their  "specialized                                                               
knowledge;"  however,  the  way  it's been  used  over  time  has                                                               
strayed from  that initial intent.   She  opined that as  long as                                                               
this particular  part of the  statute exists it will  continue to                                                               
be abused.  She  further noted that adding a timeframe  of 3 or 6                                                               
months  would  not help  designate  a  specific salary  to  these                                                               
positions, like most jobs have.   She pointed out that this would                                                               
not  take  away the  [governor's]  ability  to write  a  specific                                                               
contract for someone.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:00:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES  asked for  an example of  the type  of job                                                               
being discussed.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR  HENDERSON   described  a  unit   within  the   Department  of                                                               
Corrections  (DOC) called  an  "investigative  unit" under  which                                                               
they established temporary  exempt positions titled "Professional                                                               
Conduct  Investigator"  using  the aforementioned  statute.    He                                                               
stated that the  position received 173,000 dollars  in salary and                                                               
benefits  and further  noted that  it was  created in  FY 17  and                                                               
existed  until the  current commissioner  cut it  from the  FY 20                                                               
budget.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES posited that  temporary exempt positions do                                                               
not receive benefits.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:02:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON acknowledged that  they are not supposed to                                                               
receive benefits  under the  statute's original  intent; however,                                                               
it's not being utilized accordingly.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES surmised that  there are some employees who                                                               
receive a salary  and benefits but are off the  books and have no                                                               
PCN.  She asked if this was correct.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON replied  that some positions do  have a PCN                                                               
while  others do  not.    She explained  that  if the  governor's                                                               
office had  money left in  their budget, they could  hire someone                                                               
underneath AS 39.25.110(09)  and not give them a PCN.   She noted                                                               
that  positions like  that, which  you can't  find in  the budget                                                               
books, are what makes things difficult.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:03:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HENDERSON added  that some  [positions] are  identified, for                                                               
example, by a  letter "T" in front  of the last 3  letters of the                                                               
PCN.  He  stated that the only  way to truly figure  out how many                                                               
of those  positions exist is  to contact each department  and ask                                                               
them to provide that information.   He explained that the current                                                               
bill moves  one particular part  of the statute  AS 39.25.110(09)                                                               
[persons employed in a professional  capacity to make a temporary                                                               
or special  inquiry, study  or examination  as authorized  by the                                                               
governor] from Exempt Service [AS  39.25.110] to Partially Exempt                                                               
Service [AS 39.25.120],  which subjects the appointment  to a pay                                                               
plan that  is established under  statute.  He further  noted that                                                               
the governor  can still appoint  someone up  to a step  F, unless                                                               
there  are extenuating  circumstances that  can justify  the need                                                               
for a higher  paying position.  The difference, he  said, is that                                                               
someone would  no longer be  able to be  placed in a  high paying                                                               
position without a rationale.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:05:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX  asked  who  would   approve  the  hire  if  the                                                               
administration wanted to employ someone beyond a step F.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HENDERSON offered  his belief  that it  was reviewed  by the                                                               
personnel board.   Nonetheless, he  said he would follow  up with                                                               
clarification from the Department  of Administration, Division of                                                               
Personnel and Labor Relations.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:07:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FIELDS revealed  that  he  had asked  Legislative                                                               
Finance and the administration to  account for the personnel cost                                                               
of  political  appointees  in  the  executive  branch  and  never                                                               
received  a  response.    He  acknowledged that  he  had  been  a                                                               
political  appointee himself  and  understands that  they are  an                                                               
important part  of the democratic process;  however, everyone has                                                               
a right to understand how the  executive branch is organized.  He                                                               
expressed his appreciation  for the current bill  in the interest                                                               
of transparency.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX  acknowledged that knowing the  personnel cost of                                                               
political  appointees in  the executive  branch would  be helpful                                                               
information to  have.  She  suggested that  Representative Wilson                                                               
follow up on that request.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:07:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON asserted  that she  had already  requested                                                               
that  information multiple  times, which  is why  she had  looked                                                               
forward  to  seeing  the  fiscal  note  from  the  Department  of                                                               
Administration to  see if  they would list  any of  the appointed                                                               
positions.   She concluded that  the governor would be  okay with                                                               
the current bill's proposed changes due to the lack of response.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX stated  that  she was  having  a difficult  time                                                               
comprehending why  there is a  0-dollar fiscal note,  adding that                                                               
it should probably  be a negative fiscal note.   She said she was                                                               
hopeful that by the bill's  next hearing the administration would                                                               
provide an explanation.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON noted that the  bill was going to the House                                                               
Finance Committee  next where  they would  probably ask  the same                                                               
question.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:08:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  WOOL inquired  as to  Alaska's statutory  definition of                                                               
"exempt"  and "partially  exempt."   He noted  the importance  of                                                               
accounting  for employee  positions and  salaries in  the budget,                                                               
adding that it should be "a basic condition of transparency."                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON agreed  to follow  up on  the definitions.                                                               
She mentioned that the last time  she went through the budget she                                                               
found two people with the same PCN number, which she thought to                                                                 
be strange.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:10:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at-ease at 4:10 p.m.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:11:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX announced that HB 48 was held over.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
             HB  44-AUTOMATED TELLER MACHINES: FEES                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:11:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX announced that the final order of business would                                                                
be HOUSE BILL NO. 44, "An Act relating to fees for using an                                                                     
automated teller machine; and providing for an effective date."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:12:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAN ORTIZ,  Alaska  State  Legislature, as  prime                                                               
sponsor, presented  HB 44.   He paraphrased parts of  the sponsor                                                               
statement [included in  the committee packet], which  read in its                                                               
entirety as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
      The intent of this bill is to allow retail automatic                                                                      
       teller machines (ATMs) to charge a withdraw fee on                                                                       
     transactions made by international bank card holders.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Currently,  independently owned  ATMs are  not able  to                                                                    
     charge  a fee  on  transactions  made by  international                                                                    
     card  holders. Our  current law  only pertains  to ATMs                                                                    
     owned by  state-sponsored banks  or credit  unions, and                                                                    
     does not  include retail  and individually  owned ATMs.                                                                    
     Because  of  this  gap, retail  ATMs  cannot  charge  a                                                                    
     withdraw fee  on transactions  from bank  cards outside                                                                    
     of the United States.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Alaska welcomes millions of visitors  each year, with a                                                                    
     large  percentage of  those visitors  from  out of  the                                                                    
     country. In  the summer of  2016 alone,  nearly 300,000                                                                    
     international  visitors  came  to  Alaska.  Retail  ATM                                                                    
     owners   cannot   charge   fees  on   these   tourists'                                                                    
     transactions.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Multiple  other state    have  already  passed laws  to                                                                    
     close this gap and allow  retail ATM owners to charge a                                                                    
     transaction fee to international card holders.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:14:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX asked  if domestic card holders can  be charged a                                                               
withdraw fee.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ORTIZ  answered  yes.    He  explained  that  the                                                               
current  bill would  "close the  gap" and  allow privately  owned                                                               
ATMs  to  charge international  users  [a  withdraw fee],  adding                                                               
that, currently,  retail ATM owners charge  domestic card holders                                                               
more  to  make   up  for  the  rates  they   don't  receive  from                                                               
international  users.   He  stated that  the  current bill  would                                                               
allow  private  owners  to  set  a  fee  for  withdraws  made  by                                                               
international  card users,  which  would  increase their  revenue                                                               
from international  tourists.   He further noted  that HB  44 has                                                               
received  support from  Alaskan ATM  owners; the  Alaska Cabaret,                                                               
Hotel,  Restaurant  and  Retailers Association  (CHARR)  and  the                                                               
National ATM Council, Inc. (NAC).                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
4:15:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES  inquired as  to the difference  between an                                                               
international user and a "regular" user.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ORTIZ explained  that an  international user  was                                                               
"anyone from a foreign country other than the United States."                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES  surmised that an international  user would                                                               
be recognized by  their bank being located outside  of the United                                                               
States.  She asked if this was correct.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:16:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CAROLINE  HAMP, Staff,  Representative  Dan  Ortiz, Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature, on behalf of Representative  Ortiz, prime sponsor of                                                               
HB  44, acknowledged  that it  was  the card  holder's bank,  not                                                               
their nationality, that was significant.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:16:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN said  she had made the  presumption that if                                                               
an ATM  couldn't charge a fee  then the bank card  wouldn't work,                                                               
when, in reality,  an international card holder can  use the ATM,                                                               
but no fee is recovered.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ORTIZ said that was correct.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN asked  if ATM owners were  allowed to block                                                               
users if they couldn't charge them a fee.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ORTIZ replied  that he did not know  the answer to                                                               
that question.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:17:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR WOOL, as  an ATM owner himself, disclosed  a conflict of                                                               
interest.   In  response to  Representative Hannan,  he explained                                                               
that  he bought  his [ATM]  machine  from a  private company  who                                                               
processes the transactions and compensates  him monthly.  He said                                                               
he was unsure  as to whether that company  can block transactions                                                               
from  specific  banks,  adding that  foreign  card  holders  most                                                               
likely use  the machine without  being charged the  withdraw fee.                                                               
Nonetheless,  he  revealed that  even  if  they  had to  pay  the                                                               
withdraw fee  and he was  making money off every  transaction, he                                                               
still wouldn't  be inclined to  lower the  fee.  He  concluded by                                                               
expressing his support for the current bill.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES  sought clarification  on the  withdraw fee                                                               
and whether  it concerned the exchange  rate or if it  was simply                                                               
the  extra fee  a card  holder is  charged when  they use  an ATM                                                               
machine that does not belong to their bank.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ORTIZ confirmed that it was the extra fee.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:20:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX recognized Bruce Renard  and asked him if private                                                               
ATM machine owners can block foreign transactions.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
BRUCE  RENARD, Executive  Director,  National  ATM Council,  Inc.                                                               
(NAC), pointed  out that it's  a misnomer to  refer to an  ATM as                                                               
"private" because each  one has a sponsoring bank.   He explained                                                               
that  60 percent  of  ATMs  in the  United  States  are owned  by                                                               
entrepreneurs   and   business   owners  and   referred   to   as                                                               
"independent  ATMs," despite  being  operated  pursuant to  their                                                               
sponsoring bank.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX  interjected,  asking  Mr. Renard  if  he  could                                                               
answer  her previously  stated  question and  save  the rest  for                                                               
public testimony.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. RENARD  consented and offered  his belief  that, technically,                                                               
blocking [foreign  transactions] could be  done, but it  would be                                                               
in violation  of the network rules.   He explained that  all ATMs                                                               
are subject  to compliance with  the rules of the  global finance                                                               
network, who wouldn't approve of  blocking.  He further described                                                               
the  situation [in  Alaska]  as "a  catch-22"  because ATMs  must                                                               
allow  these  international   transactions  that,  theoretically,                                                               
could be  blocked.  He noted  that Alaska is the  last state with                                                               
this glitch.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  LEDOUX inquired  as to  why her  Wells Fargo  bank card                                                               
only   works   in  certain   ATM   machines   when  she   travels                                                               
internationally.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  RENARD  stated  that   different  countries  have  different                                                               
protocols,  however,  Visa  and   Mastercard  cards  should  work                                                               
everywhere,  which is  why they  are  so dominant.   He  remarked                                                               
that,  in general,  ATMs should  accept US  cards abroad,  and if                                                               
they don't it's unique to that country.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:24:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HANNAN  stated that  she intended to  support this                                                               
piece   of   legislation   because  Alaska   receives   so   many                                                               
international visitors.   She asked if a statute  had been passed                                                               
to  allow  ATMs   to  charge  fees  on   domestic  card  holders'                                                               
transactions.    She  sought  clarification  as  to  why,  in  an                                                               
industry  that is  highly regulated  by  the federal  government,                                                               
Alaska   was  the   last  state   with  this   glitch  concerning                                                               
transaction fees.  She asked  if international fees were excluded                                                               
from federal banking law.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   ORTIZ  offered   his  understanding   that  when                                                               
regulations   around  ATM   use  were   established,  they   left                                                               
independently owned machines  out of the equation.   He explained                                                               
that, currently, institutions like Wells  Fargo can charge a fee,                                                               
but  for  some  reason,  Alaska   remains  the  one  place  where                                                               
individually owned  ATMs cannot  charge international users.   He                                                               
added that passing the current bill  would put Alaska on par with                                                               
the other 49 states.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:26:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX opened public testimony.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:27:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. RENARD addressed the intent of  the current bill, which is to                                                               
solve the glitch  that is specific to Alaska  and its interaction                                                               
with the global network rules.   That interaction has resulted in                                                               
the inability  of Alaska's independently  owned ATMs to  charge a                                                               
reasonable fee  on transactions made  by international  bank card                                                               
holders.    He  pointed  out   that  federal  law  placed  a  fee                                                               
disclosure  requirement  and  the  ability  to  opt  out  on  any                                                               
surcharge  established  by ATM  owners.    This has  resulted  in                                                               
independently  owned  ATM  surcharges  remaining  low,  generally                                                               
within two  to three dollars,  whereas surcharges from  Bank ATMs                                                               
(other than one's own) may be  twice as high.  He reiterated that                                                               
HB 44  would fix the  glitch that is  currently in Alaska  law by                                                               
allowing  ATMs to  charge  the same  fees  to international  card                                                               
holders as they do domestic card  holders.  By doing so, he said,                                                               
it would  create a  level playing field  between bank  owned ATMs                                                               
and independently owned ATMs.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:33:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PAUL THOMAS, Owner, Alaska Cache  Liquor Inc, noted that he owned                                                               
the ATM located  inside his business as well as  14 other ATMs in                                                               
Juneau.  He stated that  the current bill would put independently                                                               
owned ATMs  on par with  all of the other  ATMs.  He  pointed out                                                               
the  impact that  being located  close to  international traveler                                                               
departure  points has  on  ATM  operators.   The  docks, being  a                                                               
prominent   departure  point   for   international  cruise   ship                                                               
passengers,  means  independent ATMS  in  that  area will  see  a                                                               
considerable  amount  of "no  charge"  fees,  which could  prompt                                                               
owners to  raise the surcharge.   He  urged members to  even "the                                                               
playing field."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:34:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SARAH  OATES, President/CEO,  Alaska  Cabaret, Hotel,  Restaurant                                                               
and   Retailers  Association   (CHARR),   noted   that  she   was                                                               
representing  many business  owners  from all  across the  state,                                                               
many of whom have independent  ATMs in their establishments.  She                                                               
expressed their support  for the current bill, as  it would allow                                                               
for  independent ATM  owners to  collect  the same  fee as  large                                                               
financial institutions.   She stated that current  law puts small                                                               
business owners  at a  disadvantage by forcing  them to  "eat the                                                               
cost"  of  international fees  rather  than  passing them  on  to                                                               
consumers.  She concluded by  reiterating that Alaska CHARR fully                                                               
supports "this  very fair  piece of  legislation that  would help                                                               
small Alaskan businesses."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:35:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR LEDOUX closed public testimony  and announced that HB 44                                                               
was held over.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:35:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                              
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
Labor and  Commerce Standing Committee  meeting was  adjourned at                                                               
[4:35] p.m.                                                                                                                     

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
Michael Tavoliero_Redacted.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
Commission Hearing: Michael Tavoliero
HB044 Sectional Analysis 2.26.19.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HL&C 3/20/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
HB044 Sponsor Statement 2.26.19.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
HB 44 Fiscal Note.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
HB044 ver A 3.15.19.PDF HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
HB044 Supporting Document-Support Letters 2.26.19.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HL&C 3/20/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
HB044 Supporting Document-Support Letter National ATM Council 3.15.19.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HL&C 3/20/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
2019.HB 44.Backup Support Letters.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HL&C 3/20/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
HB044 Additional Document-ATM Location Study 3.15.19.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 44
HB048 Sponsor Statement 3.4.19.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 48
HB0048 ver M 3.4.19.PDF HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 48
HB 48 Fiscal Note.pdf HL&C 3/18/2019 3:15:00 PM
HL&C 3/20/2019 3:15:00 PM
HB 48