Legislature(1999 - 2000)

04/26/1999 03:25 PM L&C

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
    HOUSE LABOR AND COMMERCE STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                                 
                   April 26, 1999                                                                                               
                     3:25 p.m.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative Norman Rokeberg, Chairman                                                                                        
Representative Andrew Halcro, Vice Chairman                                                                                     
Representative Jerry Sanders                                                                                                    
Representative Lisa Murkowski                                                                                                   
Representative John Harris                                                                                                      
Representative Tom Brice                                                                                                        
Representative Sharon Cissna                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Dental Board of Examiners                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Dr. Kenneth L. Crooks - Dillingham                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Real Estate Commission                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Linda L. Freed - Kodiak                                                                                                         
Larry Spencer - Juneau                                                                                                          
Eleanor F. Oakley - Palmer                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     - CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 50 am                                                                                                           
"An Act relating to certain boiler and pressure vessel inspections                                                              
and inspectors; and providing for an effective date."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED SB 50 am OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 110                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the sale, offer to sell, and labeling of fluid                                                              
milk, meat, and meat products."                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 167                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to mobile home dealers."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHB 167(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 51(L&C)                                                                                                  
"An Act relating to barbers, hairdressers, manicurists, and                                                                     
cosmetologists; providing that the only qualification necessary for                                                             
licensure as a manicurist, other than payment of fees, is                                                                       
completion of a class that is 12 hours in duration, addresses                                                                   
relevant health, safety, and hygiene concerns, and is offered                                                                   
through a school approved by the Board of Barbers and Hairdressers;                                                             
and providing for an effective date."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 183                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the powers and duties of the chair of the                                                                   
Alaska Public Utilities Commission; relating to membership on the                                                               
Alaska Public Utilities Commission; and relating to the annual                                                                  
report of the Alaska Public Utilities Commission."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
(* First public hearing)                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
BILL: SB 50                                                                                                                     
SHORT TITLE: BOILER AND PRESSURE VESSEL INSPECTIONS                                                                             
SPONSOR(S): LABOR & COMMERCE BY REQUEST                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 1/28/99       109     (S)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 1/28/99       110     (S)  L&C                                                                                                 
 2/18/99               (S)  L&C AT  1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203                                                                   
 2/18/99               (S)  MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                              
 2/18/99               (S)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 2/19/99       306     (S)  L&C RPT  3DP 1NR                                                                                    
 2/19/99       306     (S)  DP: MACKIE, HOFFMAN, DONLEY;                                                                        
 2/19/99       306     (S)  NR: LEMAN                                                                                           
 2/19/99       306     (S)  FISCAL NOTE (LABOR)                                                                                 
 2/19/99       306     (S)  FIN REFERRAL ADDED                                                                                  
 3/09/99               (S)  FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                  
 3/09/99               (S)  MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                              
 3/09/99               (S)  MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                         
 3/09/99       452     (S)  FIN RPT   3DP 5NR                                                                                   
 3/09/99       452     (S)  DP: TORGERSON, ADAMS, DONLEY;                                                                       
 3/09/99       452     (S)  NR: PARNELL, GREEN, PETE KELLY,                                                                     
 3/09/99       452     (S)  WILKEN, LEMAN                                                                                       
 3/09/99       452     (S)  PREVIOUS FN (LABOR)                                                                                 
 3/10/99               (S)  RLS AT 11:45 AM FAHRENKAMP 203                                                                      
 3/10/99               (S)  MINUTE(RLS)                                                                                         
 3/11/99       475     (S)  RULES TO CALENDAR  3/11/99                                                                          
 3/11/99       476     (S)  READ THE SECOND TIME                                                                                
 3/11/99       477     (S)  MOTION TO ADVANCE TO 3RD W/DRAWN                                                                    
 3/11/99       477     (S)  THIRD READING 3/12 CALENDAR                                                                         
 3/12/99       495     (S)  READ THE THIRD TIME  SB 50                                                                          
 3/12/99       495     (S)  RETURN TO SECOND FOR AM 1                                                                           
 3/12/99       495     (S)  UNAN CONSENT                                                                                        
 3/12/99       495     (S)  AM NO 1  ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                                                                       
 3/12/99       495     (S)  AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                                                                      
 3/12/99       496     (S)  PASSED Y16 N1 E3                                                                                    
 3/12/99       496     (S)  EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE                                                                   
 3/12/99       497     (S)  TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                  
 3/15/99       453     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 3/15/99       453     (H)  L&C, FIN                                                                                            
 4/21/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 4/21/99               (H)  HEARD AND HELD                                                                                      
 4/21/99               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 4/26/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 110                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: SALE/LABELING OF MILK PRODUCTS                                                                                     
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) HARRIS, Dyson                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 2/24/99       300     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 2/24/99       300     (H)  L&C, JUD                                                                                            
 3/10/99       418     (H)  COSPONSOR(S): DYSON                                                                                 
 3/15/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 3/15/99               (H)  HEARD AND HELD                                                                                      
 3/15/99               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 4/19/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 4/19/99               (H)  HEARD AND HELD                                                                                      
 4/19/99               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 4/23/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 4/23/99               (H)  <BILL POSTPONED TO 4/26>                                                                            
 4/26/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 167                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: REPEAL MOBIL HOME DEALER REGISTRATION                                                                              
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) COWDERY BY REQUEST                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 3/31/99       625     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 3/31/99       625     (H)  L&C, FIN                                                                                            
 4/23/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 4/23/99               (H)  HEARD AND HELD                                                                                      
 4/23/99               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 4/26/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
BILL: SB 51                                                                                                                     
SHORT TITLE: LICENSING OF COSMETOLOGISTS                                                                                        
SPONSOR(S): COMMUNITY & REGIONAL AFFAIRS                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 2/01/99       126     (S)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 2/01/99       126     (S)  L&C, FIN                                                                                            
 2/16/99               (S)  L&C AT  1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203                                                                   
 2/16/99               (S)  MOVED CS (L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                     
 2/16/99               (S)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 2/18/99       285     (S)  L&C RPT  CS  1DP 3NR  NEW TITLE                                                                     
 2/18/99       285     (S)  NR: MACKIE, DONLEY, HOFFMAN;                                                                        
 2/18/99       285     (S)  DP: TIM KELLY                                                                                       
 2/18/99       286     (S)  FISCAL NOTES TO SB AND CS (DEC, DCED)                                                               
 3/16/99               (S)  FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                  
 3/16/99               (S)  SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                             
 3/17/99               (S)  FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                  
 3/17/99               (S)  HEARD AND HELD                                                                                      
 3/17/99               (S)  MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                         
 3/17/99               (S)  MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                         
 3/26/99               (S)  FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                                                                  
 3/26/99               (S)  MOVED CS (L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                     
 3/26/99               (S)  MINUTE(FIN)                                                                                         
 3/26/99       699     (S)  FIN RPT  6DP 1NR 1AM  (L&C) CS                                                                      
 3/26/99       699     (S)  DP: TORGERSON, PARNELL, PHILLIPS,                                                                   
 3/26/99       699     (S)  ADAMS, WILKEN, LEMAN; NR: DONLEY;                                                                   
 3/26/99       699     (S)  AM: GREEN                                                                                           
 3/26/99       699     (S)  FISCAL NOTE TO CS (DEC)                                                                             
 3/29/99               (S)  RLS AT 12:00 PM FAHRENKAMP 203                                                                      
 3/29/99               (S)  MINUTE(RLS)                                                                                         
 3/31/99       750     (S)  RULES TO CALENDAR  AND 1 OR 3/31/99                                                                 
 3/31/99       753     (S)  READ THE SECOND TIME                                                                                
 3/31/99       753     (S)  L&C  CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                                                                        
 3/31/99       753     (S)  ADVANCED TO THIRD READING                                                                           
 3/31/99       753     (S)  UNAN CONSENT                                                                                        
 3/31/99       754     (S)  READ THE THIRD TIME  CSSB 51(L&C)                                                                   
 3/31/99       754     (S)  PASSED Y17 N1 E2                                                                                    
 3/31/99       754     (S)  EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE                                                                   
 3/31/99       756     (S)  TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                                                                  
 4/07/99       666     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 4/07/99       666     (H)  L&C, FIN                                                                                            
 4/14/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 4/14/99               (H)  HEARD AND HELD SUBCMTE APPOINTED                                                                    
 4/14/99               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 4/26/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 183                                                                                                                    
SHORT TITLE: ALASKA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION                                                                                 
SPONSOR(S): SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UTIL RESTRUCTURING                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 4/09/99       702     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                                                                   
 4/09/99       702     (H)  URS, L&C                                                                                            
 4/14/99               (H)  URS AT  8:00 AM BUTROVICH ROOM 205                                                                  
 4/14/99               (H)  SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                             
 4/16/99               (H)  URS AT  2:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                         
 4/16/99               (H)  MOVED CSHB 183(URS) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                
 4/16/99               (H)  MINUTE(URS)                                                                                         
 4/20/99       880     (H)  URS RPT  CS(URS) NT 6DP                                                                             
 4/20/99       880     (H)  DP: PORTER, KOTT, COWDERY, HUDSON,                                                                  
 4/20/99       880     (H)  GREEN, ROKEBERG                                                                                     
 4/20/99       880     (H)  ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DCED)                                                                             
 4/20/99       880     (H)  REFERRED TO L&C                                                                                     
 4/23/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
 4/23/99               (H)  HEARD AND HELD                                                                                      
 4/23/99               (H)  MINUTE(L&C)                                                                                         
 4/26/99               (H)  L&C AT  3:15 PM CAPITOL 17                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
PETE FELLMAN, Researcher                                                                                                        
   for Representative John Harris                                                                                               
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 110                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
Telephone:  (907) 465-4859                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Explained changes in the Version I committee                                                               
substitute for HB 110 on behalf of the bill sponsor.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
JANICE ADAIR, Director                                                                                                          
Division of Environmental Health                                                                                                
Department of Environmental Conservation                                                                                        
555 Cordova Street                                                                                                              
Anchorage, Alaska 99501                                                                                                         
Telephone:  (907) 269-7644                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 110.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MARGARET CARR                                                                                                                   
3505 Woodland Park Drive                                                                                                        
Anchorage, Alaska 99517                                                                                                         
Telephone:  (907) 243-4234                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 110.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
PETER TORKELSON, Researcher                                                                                                     
   for Representative Cowdery                                                                                                   
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 204                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
Telephone:  (907) 465-3879                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Explained proposed amendment to HB 167 on                                                                  
behalf of the bill sponsor.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
GALE KINCAID, Owner/Operator                                                                                                    
Triad Sales Company, Incorporated                                                                                               
3200 Seward Highway, Number 203                                                                                                 
Anchorage, Alaska 99503                                                                                                         
Telephone:  (907) 277-5655                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 167.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MAC CAREY, President                                                                                                            
Alaska Manufactured Housing Association;                                                                                        
President, Carey Homes, Incorporated                                                                                            
3317 Mountain View Drive                                                                                                        
Anchorage, Alaska 99501                                                                                                         
Telephone:  (907) 272-5414                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 167.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
BEN MARSH, Executive Secretary                                                                                                  
Alaska Manufactured Housing Association                                                                                         
2550 Denali, Suite 1310                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska 99503                                                                                                         
Telephone:  (907) 278-3615                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 167.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CATHERINE REARDON, Director                                                                                                     
Division of Occupational Licensing                                                                                              
Department of Commerce and Economic Development                                                                                 
P.O. Box 110806                                                                                                                 
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0806                                                                                                       
Telephone:  (907) 465-2534                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions regarding HB 167.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COWDERY                                                                                                     
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 204                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
Telephone:  (907) 465-3879                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Sponsor of HB 167.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
JIM BALDWIN, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                         
Governmental Affairs Section                                                                                                    
Civil Division (Juneau)                                                                                                         
Department of Law                                                                                                               
P.O. Box 110300                                                                                                                 
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300                                                                                                       
Telephone:  (907) 465-3600                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions regarding HB 183.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
WALT WILCOX, Legislative Assistant                                                                                              
   to Representative Bill Hudson                                                                                                
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 108                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
Telephone:  (907) 465-6820                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on HB 183 as aide to the                                                              
House Special Committee on Utilities Restructuring, the bill                                                                    
sponsor.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REED STOOPS, Lobbyist                                                                                                           
   of General Communications, Incorporated                                                                                      
240 Main Street, Number 600                                                                                                     
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
(907) 463-3223                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 183.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ERIC YOULD, Executive Director                                                                                                  
Alaska Rural Electric Cooperative Association, Incorporated                                                                     
211 Fourth Avenue                                                                                                               
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
Telephone:  (907) 463-3636                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 183.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SAM COTTEN, Chairman and Commissioner                                                                                           
Alaska Public Utilities Commission                                                                                              
Department of Commerce and Economic Development                                                                                 
1016 West Sixth Avenue                                                                                                          
Anchorage, Alaska 99501-1963                                                                                                    
Telephone:  (907) 276-6222                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions on HB 183.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
JONATHON LACK, Legislative Assistant                                                                                            
   to Representative Andrew Halcro                                                                                              
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 418                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                                                                            
Telephone:  (907) 465-4939                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Commented on HB 183.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-46, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN NORMAN ROKEBERG called the House Labor and Commerce                                                                    
Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:25 p.m.  Members present                                                               
at the call to order were Representatives Rokeberg, Halcro,                                                                     
Murkowski, Harris, Brice and Cissna.  Representative Sanders                                                                    
arrived at 4:09 p.m.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Dental Board of Examiners                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0081                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced that the committee would consider Dr.                                                               
Kenneth L. Crooks for the Board of Dental Examiners.  Chairman                                                                  
Rokeberg noted that Dr. Crooks has been a licensee in Alaska since                                                              
1980.  Dr. Crooks is a reappointment.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO moved to forward the name of Dr. Kenneth L.                                                               
Crooks for the Board of Dental Examiners.  There being no                                                                       
objection, it was so ordered.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG explained that the signing of transmittal letters                                                             
by individual members did not reflect an intent by any member to                                                                
vote for or against an individual during any further sessions for                                                               
the purpose of confirmation.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Real Estate Commission                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0167                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced that the committee would consider Linda                                                             
L. Freed, a Kodiak resident, for the Real Estate Commission.                                                                    
Chairman Rokeberg noted that he is acquainted with Ms. Freed who is                                                             
the public member on the commission.  He commented that Ms. Freed                                                               
is well-respected by the commission and has done a fine job.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO moved to forward the name of Linda L. Freed                                                               
for the Real Estate Commission.  There being no objection, it was                                                               
so ordered.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced that the committee would next consider                                                              
Larry Spencer, a Juneau resident, for the Real Estate Commission.                                                               
Chairman Rokeberg reminded the committee that Mr. Spencer testified                                                             
before the committee this year.  Chairman Rokeberg noted that Mr.                                                               
Spencer is a well-known and well-respected  businessman in the                                                                  
Juneau community and the real estate community throughout the                                                                   
state.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG  moved to forward the name of Larry Spencer for                                                               
the Real Estate Commission.  There being no objection, it was so                                                                
ordered.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced that the committee would next consider                                                              
Eleanor F. Oakley, a Palmer resident, for the Real Estate                                                                       
Commission.  Chairman Rokeberg noted that Ms. Oakley is also an                                                                 
reappointee and served the commission well in the past.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO moved to forward the name of Eleanor F.                                                                   
Oakley for the Real Estate Commission.  There being no objection,                                                               
it was so ordered.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0299                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called a brief at-ease at 3:30 p.m.  The                                                                      
committee came back to order at 3:31 p.m.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SB 50 am - BOILER AND PRESSURE VESSEL INSPECTIONS                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 0307                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business                                                              
is SB 50 am, "An Act relating to certain boiler and pressure vessel                                                             
inspections and inspectors; and providing for an effective date."                                                               
The chairman informed the committee that he had attended meetings                                                               
subsequent to the previous committee hearing on SB 50 [April 21,                                                                
1999].  It was decided that his suggestion to refine the scope of                                                               
the plumbing inspectors to make them more available and involve the                                                             
municipalities would require further work.  Noting the time                                                                     
required to move legislation, the chairman indicated the                                                                        
legislation before the committee does provide for certification of                                                              
additional inspectors within the department which will hopefully be                                                             
a step forward in addressing the backlog and safety issue before                                                                
the state.  Chairman Rokeberg announced he would not make any                                                                   
amendments, as he had originally planned, to SB 50 am and requested                                                             
that the bill be moved out of committee.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0366                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO made a motion to move SB 50 am out of                                                                     
committee with individual recommendations and the attached zero                                                                 
fiscal note.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI questioned where the legislation goes                                                                  
next.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG answered that SB 50 am goes to the House floor.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE commented that this is a change in revenue                                                                 
source and therefore it is technically a zero fiscal note.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG informed the committee he was pleased with the                                                                
response he received from the department [Department of Labor] but                                                              
the department believed that moving in the direction and scope the                                                              
chairman desired would slow the legislation's progress.  Chairman                                                               
Rokeberg reiterated that he would like to move the legislation on                                                               
its way.  There being no objection, SB 50 am moved out of the House                                                             
Labor and Commerce Standing Committee.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0452                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called an at-ease at 3:33 p.m.  The committee                                                                 
came back to order in less than a minute.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
HB 110 - SALE/LABELING OF MEAT/MILK PRODUCTS                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0456                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business                                                              
is HB 110, "An Act relating to the sale, offer to sell, and                                                                     
labeling of fluid milk, meat, and meat products."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS, the bill sponsor, noted almost everything                                                                
controversial had been removed from the legislation, but there is                                                               
still something else.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned if the committee had a CS [committee                                                               
substitute] to adopt.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0502                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
PETE FELLMAN, Researcher for Representative John Harris, Alaska                                                                 
State Legislature, came forward.  He confirmed that Version I is                                                                
the working version.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
There was some discussion among the committee regarding the                                                                     
location of the proposed committee substitute in the bill packets.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0558                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO made a motion to adopt the Version I proposed                                                             
committee substitute (CS) for HB 110, labeled 1-LS0408\I,                                                                       
Bannister, 4/20/99, as a working document.  There being no                                                                      
objection, it was so ordered.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Pete Fellman to explain the changes                                                                     
reflected in Version I.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN explained that any references to the meat and milk                                                                  
products were removed in order to reduce some of the confusion and                                                              
concerns.  The concerns regarding the ten percent ownership and the                                                             
bottling company were also removed; therefore, the legislation will                                                             
now fall under existing statute regarding enforcement.  No changes                                                              
were adopted as far as the labeling that refers to bST [bovine                                                                  
somatotropin], rbST [recombinant bovine somatotropin], or rBGH                                                                  
[recombinant bovine growth hormone].                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0635                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI questioned if the legislation contains                                                                 
language recommend by the department [Department of Environmental                                                               
Conservation (DEC)] regarding the disclaimer.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN replied that the language does not include a                                                                        
disclaimer.  He explained that after a lot of research it was                                                                   
determined that if the disclaimer language was included, it would                                                               
actually be considered mislabeling.  Current information indicates                                                              
that there is a difference in milk that comes from cows injected                                                                
with bST.  Mr. Fellman stated, "The disclaimer says that there is                                                               
no difference in milk, when, in fact, that was written in 1993.                                                                 
... Since then, the technology has grown and has changed, so now                                                                
they can indeed test milk and indicate that there is a difference.                                                              
The difference itself is not the bST.  The difference, itself, is                                                               
the IGF-1 [insulin-like growth factor 1], ... and they can test for                                                             
that."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE wondered if IGF-1 was a hormone, and asked how                                                             
a hormone was made.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 0719                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN explained that when a cow is given rBGH, the levels of                                                              
IGF-1 the cow synthesizes increase.  The difference in levels of                                                                
IGF-1 between cows that have not been given bST and those that have                                                             
been given bST can be measured.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN referred to research by Samuel S. Epstein [Samuel S.                                                                
Epstein, MD, Professor of Environmental Medicine, University of                                                                 
Illinois School of Public Health; Chairman, Cancer Prevention                                                                   
Coalition] included in the bill packet.  Mr. Epstein has shown that                                                             
can be proven.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS commented, "I know you brought along some                                                                 
samples of what other states have allowed. ... I know one of the                                                                
concerns of the department at the last hearing was that, what                                                                   
Representative Murkowski just said, that there wasn't enough                                                                    
disclaimer in there.  ... Other states, it seems like, have-how                                                                 
many states were there? 26?"                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0794                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN replied that there are 26 states.  He has also included                                                             
in the bill packet a list of all the companies processing milk                                                                  
today, some of which do not use any disclaimers.  Mr. Fellman                                                                   
indicated he found two examples of labeled milk products at the                                                                 
grocery store here in Juneau.  These two companies do not use any                                                               
disclaimers at all, but simply label their milk "hormone free" or                                                               
"no hormones used."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked that the record show Mr. Fellman provided                                                               
visual aids [Organic Valley half-and-half, Wisconsin; Horizon                                                                   
Organic yogurt, Boulder, Colorado].  He commented the competitors                                                               
are already sending these products into the state, asking if that                                                               
is correct.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE agreed; the companies are claiming that their                                                              
products are organic.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0840                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN indicated the labeling is "no hormones used."  Under                                                                
the 1993 federal guidelines they would not be able to do that.  The                                                             
other thing Mr. Fellman noted is that these are just guidelines.                                                                
Referring to page 2 of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA),                                                                  
Department of Health and Human Services, handout included in the                                                                
bill packet, Mr. Fellman indicated the FDA has given itself some                                                                
real leeway.  The guideline is not a law; it's a recommendation for                                                             
the states.  Some leeway has also been left in this so that the                                                                 
agency cannot be held accountable as technology or things change.                                                               
Mr. Fellman referred the language at the bottom of the FDA's Docket                                                             
No. 94D-0025, "Interim Guidance on the Voluntary Labeling of Milk                                                               
and Milk Products From Cows That Have Not Been Treated With                                                                     
Recombinant Bovine Somatotropin".  [The paragraph Mr. Fellman                                                                   
referred to on page 2 of this document read:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     The guidance presented here reflects FDA's interpretation                                                                  
     of the act and may be relevant to States' interpretation                                                                   
     of their own similar statutes.  This document does not                                                                     
     bind FDA or an State, and it does not create or confer                                                                     
     any rights, privileges, benefits, or immunities for or on                                                                  
     any persons.  Furthermore, this document reflects FDA's                                                                    
     current views on this matter. This document reflects                                                                       
     FDA's current views on this matter.  FDA may reconsider                                                                    
     its position at a later date in light of any comments it                                                                   
     receives on this guidance document.]                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN explained this is why FDA has not come out against                                                                  
these individual companies that are labeling milk "no hormones                                                                  
used."  He confirmed for Representative Harris that this is the                                                                 
information from the FDA.  The other information they have was                                                                  
submitted by DEC and was derived from this 1993 FDA guideline.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0941                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS asked if Mr. Fellman had received any other                                                               
information.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN answered in negative.  He indicated he had been unable                                                              
to contact the FDA by telephone.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said, "Looking at that label, they say just                                                                
plain and flatly 'no hormones used.'"                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted the label on the Organic Valley                                                                         
half-and-half from Wisconsin says "No antibiotics or hormones ever                                                              
used."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE wondered if the ability to say "not treated                                                                
with rBGH" is being established into statute.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN affirmed that.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE questioned if it would be better to say "no                                                                
hormones ever used" or "we're not using rBGH".  He thinks the                                                                   
second language might make other people wonder what other hormones                                                              
might be used.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN agreed.  The first bill submitted, which Mr. Fellman                                                                
said was a good bill, where it simply said "no hormones used."                                                                  
However, in an attempt to clarify things, they had focused on that                                                              
specific hormone.  That is the specific hormone FDA has laid out in                                                             
its guidelines.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked if he could use the cream in his coffee.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated that he would defer to the state of                                                                    
Wisconsin who seems to have a vested interest in dairy products.                                                                
He indicated Wisconsin's labeling appears to be the least                                                                       
comprehensive and, he would think, most beneficial to the state's                                                               
dairy farmers.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1058                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted she has not had a chance to read Dr.                                                             
Epstein's very current, March 22, report.  Representative Murkowski                                                             
referred to discussion with the department [DEC] at the previous                                                                
hearing, where the department indicated the disclaimer should be                                                                
included.  She wondered if Dr. Epstein's research is something they                                                             
should be relying on as statutes are being crafted if it is just                                                                
one scientist's opinion.  Representative Murkowski questioned what                                                              
harm it does to say the scientific evidence is not clear.  She                                                                  
mentioned discussion on the House floor on April 23 and 26, where                                                               
the legislature chose to disagree with a certain study published in                                                             
a certain journal.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1148                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN directed Representative Murkowski to the references                                                                 
that Mr. Epstein has cited.  He pointed out that Mr. Epstein has                                                                
cited many concerns dating as far back as 1982 and from many                                                                    
different sources of research.  Mr. Fellman indicated the problem                                                               
with including the disclaimer is that it is not true; it can be                                                                 
proven that there is a difference between cows treated with the                                                                 
hormone and those that are not.  Another issue revolves around                                                                  
advertising.  The more words used, the less effective the                                                                       
advertisement.  Mr. Fellman stated that an advertisement such as                                                                
"note: this is from cows not treated with bST or rBGH" is simple,                                                               
clear and does falls within the federal guidelines.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted that although the FDA is not                                                                     
necessarily the final word on any of this, she mentioned Dr.                                                                    
Epstein's mention that "the FDA has ignored such evidence reported                                                              
by the author in peer review scientific publications over the last                                                              
decade."  This makes her wonder what is going on between Dr.                                                                    
Epstein and the FDA.  However, she pointed to what she terms a very                                                             
strange statement, "It should be further emphasized that senior FDA                                                             
officials and industry consultants are members of Codex, which                                                                  
meets in secrecy and relies on unpublished industry assurances of                                                               
safety."  Representative Murkowski indicated it sounds like Dr.                                                                 
Epstein is trying to establish some kind of a conspiracy here.  She                                                             
commented she is not asking the questions to be obstreperous, she                                                               
indicated she just wants to make sure "we don't get ourselves                                                                   
sideways on this because we have taken one individual's study and                                                               
said, 'By God, times have changed and Epstein is right.'"  It is                                                                
her understanding that FDA has not signed off on Dr. Epstein's                                                                  
studies.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1330                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FELLMAN reiterated that Mr. Epstein's study is a composite of                                                               
many different studies.  He pointed out that rBGH has not been                                                                  
approved in Canada, France, Italy, Ireland, Great Britain, The                                                                  
Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Austria, et cetera.                                                             
He wondered, if one man [Mr. Epstein] has it out for the FDA, why                                                               
then do all these other countries have a concern with rBGH and                                                                  
IGF-1.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS said it seemed to him that the department                                                                 
wanted to include language which said that it has not been proven,                                                              
similar to the way that tobacco manufacturers have on their surgeon                                                             
general's warning indicating that smoking has been proven to be                                                                 
harmful.  He believes that this has been stripped down to the point                                                             
where all that is left is a statement on these products that says                                                               
"milk in this product is not from cows treated with rBGH" or "milk                                                              
in this product is from cows not treated with rbST".  He feels that                                                             
the statement is brought down to a very basic level and is not                                                                  
misleading.  It is his impression that the more language which is                                                               
included, the more confusing the statement can be.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1429                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JANICE ADAIR, Director, Division of Environmental Health,                                                                       
Department of Environmental Conservation, came forward.  She                                                                    
indicated she had provided an e-mail message to Representative                                                                  
Rokeberg from Robert Hennes.  Mr. Hennes is from the FDA's Region                                                               
10 and does the Grade A milk review for the state of Alaska.  Mr.                                                               
Hennes' e-mail read:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Janice:                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     After calling FDA's Division of Food Labeling, the                                                                         
     interim rbST milk labeling policy of 1994, a copy                                                                          
     previously provided to you, is still the guidance                                                                          
     provided by FDA.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Without the qualifying statement, i.e. "No significant                                                                     
     difference has been shown between milk derived from                                                                        
     rbST-treated and non-rbST-treated cows".  it [It] may                                                                      
     imply that milk from untreated cows is safer or of higher                                                                  
     quality than milk from treated cows.  Such an implication                                                                  
     would provide labeling that would be determined to be                                                                      
     false and misleading.  Therefore, without the qualifying                                                                   
     statement, FDA would determine the labeling to be false                                                                    
     and the milk product to be misbranded.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     If you have any further questions or concerns, please                                                                      
     feel free to contact me.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADAIR stated it is her concern that milk producers in Alaska                                                                
who label their product without this qualifying statement would be                                                              
precluded from selling their milk to the military or to schools                                                                 
using federal dollars to buy the milk because FDA would determine                                                               
the milk to be misbranded.  She commented, "We are precluded in                                                                 
this bill from requiring any additional language, and if that's                                                                 
necessary to keep the markets open for the milk, my concern is that                                                             
we're kind of cutting them off at the pass.  The military and                                                                   
schools represent two of the biggest customers for the two dairy                                                                
processors in Alaska.  If FDA, until they change their policy,                                                                  
which, as was noted, it is a policy,  it's not a regulation, but                                                                
FDA is terrible about regulating through guidance.  They do this to                                                             
us all the time.  If this is what they want to see on it, if it's                                                               
not on it, then ... federal money can't be used to buy the milk.                                                                
And that's our concern."                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1547                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI referred to page 3, the end of line 1 to                                                               
line 3, of Version I, "Milk products offered for wholesale or                                                                   
retail sale in this state are not required to contain any further                                                               
label information related to the use of rBGH or rBST in milk                                                                    
products."  Representative Murkowski suggested eliminating the                                                                  
entire sentence so that any Alaskan producer that wanted to sell to                                                             
the military or to the schools could use the disclaimer language;                                                               
this would get them past the FDA issue.  She indicated other                                                                    
farmers or producers could chose to either use or not use the FDA                                                               
language.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADAIR agreed that would be the easiest fix.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked Representative Harris if there is a                                                                 
penalty for a milk producer whose products are found to contain                                                                 
hormones.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS answered in the negative, adding, "It's a                                                                 
misdemeanor class, whatever, it falls along under this.  It doesn't                                                             
state it in here, but it states it in other statutes it falls                                                                   
under."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG inquired, "So, within the Chapter, there's a                                                                  
misdemeanor (indisc.) if there's non-compliance?"                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADAIR stated that there is in existing statute.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if the department verifies this.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADAIR answered yes.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1636                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked what happens if there is a naturally                                                                
occurring trace of a hormone found and the milk producer or farmer                                                              
does not know about it.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS believed there would be a penalty.  He                                                                    
indicated he thought the dairy farmer or producer would have to be                                                              
very, very sure that they don't have that before signing the                                                                    
affidavit.  Representative Harris further indicated he did not                                                                  
think there would be a problem with the restriction on sales to the                                                             
federal government the department had mentioned; the producer or                                                                
farmer would chose to remove the labeling if they wished to do                                                                  
this.  He noted the labeling is not mandatory.  If someone wishes                                                               
to label in this manner, these are the certain guidelines to follow                                                             
and that someone cannot falsely advertise.  He indicated he thought                                                             
a prudent business person would make the decision that is best                                                                  
business-wise.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1733                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if Ms. Adair would prefer to see the                                                                    
sentence Representative Murkowski referred to on page 3, Version I,                                                             
deleted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADAIR answered in the affirmative.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented that that makes it entirely                                                                         
discretionary on the part of the milk producer.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADAIR stated, "And however the labeling requirements are                                                                    
changed in the future, then we can adjust."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if that would give the department more                                                                  
comfort with the bill.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. ADAIR answered in the affirmative.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS requested an at-ease.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1758                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called an at-ease from 3:57 p.m.  The committee                                                               
came back to order at 4:01 p.m.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS requested that the legislation be held until                                                              
the next scheduled meeting.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee would hold the                                                                        
legislation over at the sponsor's request.  He indicated the                                                                    
committee would proceed to the next bill.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1776                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called an at-ease at 4:02 p.m.  The committee                                                                 
came back to order at 4:03 p.m.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted he understands there is someone wishing to                                                              
testify on HB 110 from Anchorage via teleconference, Margaret Carr.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1798                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MARGARET CARR testified via teleconference from Anchorage in                                                                    
support of HB 110.  Ms. Carr noted she is representing herself.                                                                 
She provided the following testimony:                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     "I am here to urge you to support HB 110.  I think HB
     110, allowing the labeling of dairy products free of                                                                       
     recombinant bovine growth hormone, ... will support my                                                                     
     right and the right of all consumers to know what goes                                                                     
     into those products we buy.  There's still controversy                                                                     
     out there.  I've done a bit of reading on recombinant                                                                      
     bovine growth hormone and I believe that there's still                                                                     
     unanswered questions about the effects of this synthetic                                                                   
     hormone on the health of cows and on [the] health of                                                                       
     people, and I think the least we can do is have the                                                                        
     choice to ... buy products that are free of rBGH.  And I                                                                   
     think a simple statement on the product is simply                                                                          
     granting us the right to get that information.  Thank                                                                      
     you."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG confirmed there were no questions for Ms. Carr.                                                               
The chairman indicated HB 110 would be held over.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
HB 167 - REGULATION OF MOBILE HOME DEALERS                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1850                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business                                                              
is HB 167, "An Act relating to mobile home dealers."  The chairman                                                              
recognized the presence of Representative John Cowdery, the bill                                                                
sponsor, and indicated the intent is to first take testimony.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
PETER TORKELSON, Researcher for Representative Cowdery, Alaska                                                                  
State Legislature, came forward briefly and said he would be                                                                    
available to answer questions as they arise.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG requested the testimony of Mr. Kincaid in                                                                     
Anchorage, questioning what the gentlemen have decided.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1887                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
GALE KINCAID, Owner/Operator, Triad Sales Company, Incorporated,                                                                
testified via teleconference from Anchorage.  He informed the                                                                   
committee there was  meeting this morning which did not decide                                                                  
anything.  Mr. Kincaid requested the committee's support of HB 167.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that Mr. Kincaid had sent the committee                                                                 
notification that repealing the entire law or establishing a sunset                                                             
would be acceptable; he asked if that was correct.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID said that was correct.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1922                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MAC CAREY, President, Alaska Manufactured Housing Association                                                                   
(AMHA); President, Carey Homes, Incorporated, testified next via                                                                
teleconference from Anchorage.  Mr. Carey suggested that there                                                                  
might be some further study to determine if there might be                                                                      
obstacles to competition with regards to the smaller dealerships.                                                               
A small dealership may have difficulties obtaining the bond at all.                                                             
Mr. Carey stated that the Alaska Manufactured Housing Association                                                               
has voted HB 167 down in light of consumer protection.  If a real                                                               
estate agent does not have a warranty, but does have a bond, then                                                               
mobile home dealers should be bonded as well.  Mr. Carey said that                                                              
a "yes" vote on HB 167 would leave consumers with no protection.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked if Mr. Carey of the association had                                                                  
received any complaints regarding mobile home dealers in general or                                                             
requests for regulation.  Normally, there is a consumer group                                                                   
advocating regulatory oversight of an industry.  Representative                                                                 
Brice said that in his six years in the legislature, no                                                                         
organization or constituents have requested oversight [of the                                                                   
mobile home industry].  He questioned if they were hearing things.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY answered in the affirmative.  The association has a                                                                   
number of mobile home park managers who hear complaints monthly                                                                 
when collecting space rent.  The intent of the bill was to help                                                                 
curb those complaints.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 2055                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted, then, that the complaints are not                                                               
necessarily directed at the dealer, but are being heard about                                                                   
through the mobile home park managers.  She asked what the specific                                                             
nature of the complaints might be.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY specified that the complaints range anywhere from fraud                                                               
to holding earnest money, titling and taxes.  Taxes is a big                                                                    
complaint.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked if those complaints are forwarded to                                                             
the Division of Occupational Licensing or whether those complaints                                                              
actually result in any action or claim against any of the dealers.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY commented on the small size of some of these dealers, the                                                             
person might just have a car with a sign on it, and the chances of                                                              
getting anything from these dealers would be very slight to begin                                                               
with.  Mr. Carey added that some of the mobile home owners are not                                                              
very sophisticated and are accustomed to being "walked on."                                                                     
However, Mr. Carey indicated he does not want that stigma on                                                                    
people's dealings with his industry.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 2118                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG identified one of the main problems as the fact                                                               
that used dealers only do a small volume in relation to the cost of                                                             
the bond and the license.  He asked if Mr. Carey would consider an                                                              
amendment which would exempt mobile home dealers that do a                                                                      
specified volume of business.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY reiterated that he was willing to return to the                                                                       
association to research the issue further in order to offer more                                                                
specifics.  Mr. Carey felt that new and used dealerships should                                                                 
have the same bonding but he was open-minded.  He informed the                                                                  
committee that AMHA, which is comprised of mobile home park                                                                     
managers, owners, suppliers, and new and used dealerships, has 20                                                               
members who voted against HB 167.  Therefore, Mr. Carey would have                                                              
to present Chairman Rokeberg's proposal to the association members.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG explained the legislative process is such that HB
167 has further committee referrals.  This legislation would next                                                               
be heard in the House Finance Standing Committee.  House Bill 167                                                               
must go through the House Rules Standing Committee and then to the                                                              
House floor before being forwarded to the Senate.  He pointed out                                                               
that Mr. Carey could certainly appeal to the bill sponsor regarding                                                             
any further adjustments he (Mr. Carey) would deem necessary.  The                                                               
chairman suggested that Mr. Carey continue working on this issue to                                                             
attempt to arrive at an industry consensus.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 2221                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked how many of the association's                                                                    
members are dealers.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY believed that there are five or six dealers in the                                                                    
association.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO noted the question had been why didn't people                                                             
go to the proper authorities and complain about fraud.                                                                          
Representative Halcro noted Mr. Carey had replied that some of                                                                  
these used dealers are "fly-by-night guys" who drive around with a                                                              
sign on their car.  He requested that Mr. Carey elaborate on that                                                               
comment.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY noted he was not sure he had used the word                                                                            
"fly-by-night."  He indicated that such dealers would not have much                                                             
to lose.  Mr. Carey said, "In other words, if I was to go ahead --                                                              
if I bought a $20,000 ... or a $80,000 home from them and I went to                                                             
go ahead and sue them; what am I going to get?  With the $50,000                                                                
bond, there's something to go after; otherwise, chances are their                                                               
assets may be very little."  Mr. Carey emphasized that he is not                                                                
merely concerned with the mobile home dealers today, he is also                                                                 
concerned with what will happen in the future.  Currently,                                                                      
manufactured housing comprises 30 percent of all new [housing]                                                                  
permits in the Lower 48.  Therefore, Mr. Carey would suspect that                                                               
the manufactured housing industry would blossom in Alaska as well.                                                              
Therefore, today's new home would be tomorrow's used home.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2297                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked if the manner in which the smaller                                                                  
dealers operate has some kind of negative spin-off on others in the                                                             
industry.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY answered in the negative.  He clarified that the size of                                                              
the dealership is not important, mentioning George Reed who                                                                     
testified at the previous hearing [April 23] as an example of an                                                                
very reputable small dealer.  He emphasized he would not want to                                                                
hamper any small business.  Mr Carey did not like HB 167 as it is                                                               
because it takes away the accountability from the agents for the                                                                
small and the large consumer.  He emphasized the importance of                                                                  
having some recourse for the consumer.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG requested that Mr. Carey inform the committee of                                                              
the consumer protection provided before HB 436 [Nineteenth                                                                      
Legislature].                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY explained that the DMV [Department of Motor Vehicles] had                                                             
a $10,000 bond in order to go into business.  That $10,000 bond was                                                             
not reinstated when the dealer went out of business.  The                                                                       
manufactured and mobile home industry did determine that there                                                                  
should be a bond and that a $50,000 is not all that much.  Upon                                                                 
discussions with George Reed this morning, Mr. Carey stated, "Maybe                                                             
there is some room, if a guy can't spend $2,000 a year and trust me                                                             
$2,000 a year to go into this business is not much; $2,000 a year                                                               
to get his bonds, but his financial make-up may not be substantial                                                              
enough to get that bond.  Maybe we should reevaluate that."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if Mr. Carey's testimony was that there is                                                              
no longer any DMV bond which was the reason for the passage of the                                                              
statute in the first place.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY said that was correct.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 2453                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BEN MARSH, Executive Secretary, Alaska Manufactured Housing                                                                     
Association, testified next via teleconference from Anchorage.  Mr.                                                             
Marsh stated, "I might just reiterate what Mr. Carey said and point                                                             
out that at our meeting this morning, ... we did not have any                                                                   
meeting of the minds as to what would by the proper level of a                                                                  
bond.  Maybe [$]50,000 isn't the right figure.  We wanted to talk                                                               
about that some more, maybe 25 [$25,000], maybe 15 [$15,000]..."                                                                
[TESTIMONY INTERRUPTED BY AUTOMATIC TAPE CHANGE]                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-46, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH continued, "...controls, you know don't know he doesn't                                                               
have to have a trust account, for example.  He doesn't have to                                                                  
segregate money that is put in his car for earnest money.  He                                                                   
doesn't have to check on what the taxes are owed on the unit that                                                               
he's selling.  Maybe the buyer finds out about it through his                                                                   
(indisc.) a little later."  Mr. Marsh said that the volume of                                                                   
complaints is unknown.  Perhaps, there are not many complaints made                                                             
against the bond merely because there is a bond requirement.  Mr.                                                               
Marsh said that something should be in place.  No industry dealing                                                              
with the public without recourse should be allowed to proceed                                                                   
totally unregulated.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0059                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted that there is a fax, dated April 26,                                                             
1999, in the committee packet from Mr. Kincaid.  That fax requests                                                              
continuing the hearing today and sunset HB 167.  A second fax                                                                   
signed by Mr. Marsh, states that the fax is from Mr. Kincaid, Mr.                                                               
Carey, Mr. Reed, and Mr. Marsh.  The second fax requests that the                                                               
committee postpone action on HB 167.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID clarified that he wanted the committee to pass HB 167                                                               
with a sunset as discussed last Friday, March 23, 1999.  Therefore,                                                             
repealing the legislation.  He said that his inclusion on the fax                                                               
requesting the postponement of HB 167 was an error.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if Mr. Kincaid believed it appropriate to                                                               
include an exemption regarding the level of sales per units per                                                                 
year.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID said that the volume of business is not the problem.                                                                
He explained that most used dealers cannot qualify to be bonded.                                                                
Mr. Kincaid believed that he was the only used dealer that is                                                                   
licensed and bonded.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG closed the public testimony.  He noted that the                                                               
committee should have an amendment proposed by the sponsor.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0163                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORKELSON explained, as the sponsor's representative, that                                                                  
after last Friday's March 23 meeting, the language sunsetting HB
167 was drafted in case that was the will of the committee.  Mr.                                                                
Torkelson said he understands that it is technically not possible                                                               
to sunset the current statutes because no board is involved.                                                                    
Therefore, Mr. Torkelson interpreted that to mean repealing the                                                                 
Section requiring current licensure and dealer structure.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0190                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called an at-ease from 4:25 p.m.  The committee                                                               
came back to order at 4:26 p.m.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0196                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that this a complete repealer.  He asked if                                                             
there should be an effective date.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORKELSON said that point was discussed with the Division of                                                                
Occupational Licensing.  Many of the licenses are for a two-year                                                                
period and many would expire August 31, 1999.  He explained that                                                                
should HB 167 pass this year, the default 90-day effective clause                                                               
would make this bill effective around August 20, 1999, to August                                                                
30, 1999, depending upon when the bill would be signed by the                                                                   
Governor.  The language was eliminated in order to leave it open to                                                             
the committee or to utilize the default.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0238                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CATHERINE REARDON, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,                                                                
Department of Commerce and Economic Development came forward.  She                                                              
noted that the division administers this program.  In response to                                                               
the chairman's question, Ms. Reardon said that she believed if the                                                              
intent is to repeal this law, it would be best to do so before                                                                  
August 31, 1999, so no one would have to spend $500 [for the                                                                    
licensing fee].  She asked, in terms of ending the program, if the                                                              
desire would be to have all the bonds run out August 31, 1999, or                                                               
if it would be the desire hold onto the bonds in order to cover                                                                 
fraudulent acts that may have occurred this spring.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented that would be an area for the sponsor                                                               
to determine.  If some already do not have the bonds, the chairman                                                              
indicated it would be appropriate to refund the amount of the                                                                   
premium to the others when the program is repealed.  He remembered                                                              
Ms. Reardon's testimony to be that if HB 167 passed, the number of                                                              
licensees would be diminished to the point that it would be                                                                     
appropriate to end the program.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON agreed that continues to be her position.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG requested that the amendment be offered as a                                                                  
conceptual amendment in order to provide the drafter with the                                                                   
ability to make necessary corrections and conforming language.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said that he believed the drafter will request                                                             
the bonding issue to be addressed.  He asked if the intent is to                                                                
have immediate return of the bonds.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG answered in the affirmative.  Therefore, an                                                                   
effective date would be appropriate.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated the other option of requiring the                                                                
bonds be returned when the program is terminated.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 0354                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO expressed concern regarding an individual who                                                             
purchased a mobile home two or three weeks before the program is                                                                
terminated.  She asked what recourse that individual would have.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said there would be no recourse.  That is the                                                                 
public policy issue being faced.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON pointed out that this may be a weakness in the initial                                                              
law.  Other laws that hold bonds or certificate of deposit were                                                                 
directed in the law to keep the bond for three years past the last                                                              
license date in order to allow folks to move through the courts.                                                                
Ms. Reardon was not certain that there is a way to prevent someone                                                              
who chooses not to renew their license or bond on August 31, 1999,                                                              
and leaves town under the current law.  Perhaps, that could be                                                                  
corrected at this time.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COWDERY, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of                                                               
HB 167, commented that such issues could be addressed in the next                                                               
committee of referral, the House Finance Standing Committee.  He                                                                
said he would like the legislation to move forward if possible.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0410                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE suggested that the amendment be offered as                                                                 
written with a note attached requesting the bonding be addressed in                                                             
the House Finance Standing Committee.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated that another route could be the                                                                     
following.  He said, "Or do we want to do a conceptual amendment                                                                
and attach it to this regarding the bonding?  Then you can have a                                                               
CS [committee substitute] ... it can save those guys some time."                                                                
He questioned the committee's wishes regarding the bonding which                                                                
could be terminated as of August 31, 1999, or July 1, 1999.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE recommended the bonding be terminated as of                                                                
the effective date of HB 167.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked then if Representative Brice wished to have                                                             
a conceptual amendment to the amendment which would terminate the                                                               
bonding on the effective date.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE agreed.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG clarified that would make the default the                                                                     
effective date.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0482                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO moved that the committee adopt Amendment 1.                                                               
Amendment 1, an unlabeled printed amendment, read:                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, Line 1                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Delete all material                                                                                                        
     Insert:  "An act repealing the registration requirement                                                                    
     for mobile home dealers."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, Lines 3-7                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Delete all material                                                                                                        
     Insert:  "Section 1.  AS 08.67.010 - AS 08.67.080 is                                                                       
     repealed."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that there is a conceptual amendment to                                                                 
Amendment 1.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE explained, "That the amendment to Amendment 1                                                              
would state that the bonding requirements under this title would                                                                
end and the bonds would be returned upon the effective date of HB
167."                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI indicated the need to add language                                                                     
regarding the fact that the bond would not be released if there is                                                              
a claim pending against the bond.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE agreed and indicated the amendment to                                                                      
Amendment 1 would include Representative Murkowski's suggestion.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked if the testimony indicated that those                                                               
14 licensed and bonded dealers do not care that they are not                                                                    
bonded.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 0539                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said that the testimony was that 10 of those                                                                  
dealers did not want bonding.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said that she did not interpret the testimony                                                             
that way.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY agreed with Chairman Rokeberg's                                                                          
understanding of the testimony.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0562                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there are any objections to the                                                                      
amendment to Amendment 1 which reads as follows:  "Bond                                                                         
requirements under this title would end and returned upon the                                                                   
effective date of HB 167 unless there is a claim pending against                                                                
the bond."  There being no objection, the amendment to Amendment 1                                                              
was adopted.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there were any objections to Amendment                                                               
1 as amended.  There being no objection, Amendment 1 as amended was                                                             
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0590                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO made a motion to move HB 167, as amended, out                                                             
of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying                                                               
zero fiscal note.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG objected to comment.  He announced for those on                                                               
the teleconference that this would just be the beginning of their                                                               
fight.  The chairman suggested that the teleconference participants                                                             
continue the discussions with other members of the industry to                                                                  
attempt to attain consensus.  He explained that what has been done                                                              
is repeal the entire chapter.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no further objection, CSHB 167(L&C) moved out of the                                                                
House Labor and Commerce Standing Committee.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0647                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called a brief at-ease at 4:37 p.m.  The                                                                      
committee came back to order at 4:39 p.m.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CSSB 51(L&C) - LICENSING OF COSMETOLOGISTS                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0651                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business                                                              
is CSSB 51(L&C), "An Act relating to barbers, hairdressers,                                                                     
manicurists, and cosmetologists; providing that the only                                                                        
qualification necessary for licensure as a manicurist, other than                                                               
payment of fees, is completion of a class that is 12 hours in                                                                   
duration, addresses relevant health, safety, and hygiene concerns,                                                              
and is offered through a school approved by the Board of Barbers                                                                
and Hairdressers; and providing for an effective date."  The                                                                    
chairman requested that Representative Brice provide the                                                                        
subcommittee report on SB 51 [subcommittee: Representatives Brice                                                               
(chair), Murkowski and Cissna].                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0674                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE moved to adopt the proposed Version K House                                                                
committee substitute (CS) for CSSB 51(L&C) as the working document                                                              
before the committee.  Version K was labeled 1-LS0378\K,                                                                        
Lauterbach, 4/21/99.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there were any objections.  There being                                                              
none, Version K was adopted.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the subcommittee looked at a number of                                                                
issues, primarily some of the concerns raised by the chairman                                                                   
relating to competency testing and postsecondary education loans.                                                               
In Sections 3 and 6 of Version K, the subcommittee addressed the                                                                
question of testing for the course.  It has been clarified that a                                                               
test can be administered by the school, not the state, to show                                                                  
completion of the 12-hour course.  In Section 10, some superfluous                                                              
language relating to credential investigation fees was deleted.  No                                                             
one charges or administers credential investigation fees so that                                                                
was removed from the legislation.  Additionally, an Alaska-licensed                                                             
hairdresser does manicure work as part of that hairdresser's                                                                    
license, sometimes in the range of 200 to 300 hours, and is tested                                                              
for competency in that area as part of state regulation.  The                                                                   
subcommittee thought it was a bit redundant to require these people                                                             
who have gone above and beyond the provisions of the 12-hour                                                                    
manicurist's course to go back and obtain a manicurist's license                                                                
after receiving the hairdresser's license.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG confirmed from Representative Brice that is                                                                   
already in the requirements for hairdressers.  The chairman                                                                     
questioned how many hours are included within the hairdresser's                                                                 
[license].                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0796                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE answered that some schools are from 200 to 300                                                             
hours, here in Alaska.  In order to receive a hairdresser's                                                                     
license, an individual must successfully complete 15 [manicure]                                                                 
applications.  This is a standard established in regulation.                                                                    
Therefore, Representative Brice noted, the Board of Barbers and                                                                 
Hairdressers has recognized through the hairdresser requirements                                                                
and regulations the importance of manicurists and ensuring that                                                                 
they are adequately trained.  Representative Brice indicated                                                                    
Section 13 clarifies that the 12-hour basic health, safety and                                                                  
hygiene course should be geared toward the concerns of the                                                                      
manicurist as well as the customer because the manicurist is the                                                                
one exposed to the chemicals and the dust.  He indicated the dust                                                               
can cause "white lung."  Additionally, the subcommittee attempted                                                               
to clarify in Version K that the manicurist's license does not show                                                             
competency, it only shows course completion in health, hygiene, and                                                             
safety issues.  Representative Brice emphasized it was a big                                                                    
concern not to provide a statement that an individual has shown or                                                              
passed any competency requirements to practice manicuring.  The                                                                 
license should say the individual has completed a 12-hour course on                                                             
health, safety, and hygiene for both the manicurist and the                                                                     
customer.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0905                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG confirmed the hairdressers are the only ones                                                                  
exempted from the 12-hour course.  He further confirmed that anyone                                                             
else currently practicing manicuring is required to take the                                                                    
12-hour course.  The chairman confirmed from Representative Brice                                                               
that was one of the Senate's intention and is a positive note in                                                                
terms of the transition.  Chairman Rokeberg questioned if the                                                                   
hairdressers are grandfathered in for the 12 hours of health                                                                    
training.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE answered in the affirmative; hairdressers are                                                              
grandfathered in for the 12 hours because that training takes place                                                             
within the core curriculum of hairdressing.  However, no one else                                                               
is exempted.  Representative Brice indicated state licensure,                                                                   
showing that a person has successfully completed a course in                                                                    
health, safety and hygiene concerns, will be required for the                                                                   
practice of manicure.  He further indicated the penalty in Version                                                              
K for failure to complete the 12-hour course and obtain licensure                                                               
is a violation enforceable by the Department of Environmental                                                                   
Conservation (DEC).  Representative Brice noted the quality of the                                                              
12-hour course was not addressed by the subcommittee.  That is the                                                              
core policy argument the chairman is currently aware of:  Is it                                                                 
possible to teach health, safety, and hygiene concerns as they                                                                  
relate to manicure in 12 hours?  The subcommittee did not arrive at                                                             
a consensus on this point.  Representative Brice said his feeling                                                               
is anything less than 50 or 60 hours is "pretty much just blowing                                                               
in the wind."  He recognized the sponsor's desire to keep the                                                                   
length of time to a bare minimum, which resulted in the 12 hours.                                                               
However, the course still does not address application or more than                                                             
12 hours worth of the importance of health, safety, and hygiene                                                                 
concerns.  That is the one major outstanding issue.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated the subcommittee had spoken with                                                                 
Diane Barrans, Executive Director, Alaska Commission on                                                                         
Postsecondary Education (ACPE), Department of Education ["student                                                               
loans"].  Ms. Barrans had informed the subcommittee that the                                                                    
minimum length of a program to meet eligibility requirements for a                                                              
student loan is generally six weeks.  Therefore, this program would                                                             
not be eligible for student loans.  Representative Brice explained                                                              
he believes some of the reasons the subcommittee did not address                                                                
competency and the length of the course were because the                                                                        
legislation's title is fairly strictly written.  [CSSB 51(L&C),                                                                 
"... providing that the only qualification necessary for licensure                                                              
as a manicurist, other than payment of fees, is completion of a                                                                 
class that is 12 hours in duration, addresses relevant health,                                                                  
safety, and hygiene concerns, and is offered through a school                                                                   
approved by the Board of Barbers and Hairdressers ...."].                                                                       
Representative Brice said that he did not necessarily want to come                                                              
back with a recommendation which would create title problems                                                                    
although he believes, as a full committee, they do want to address                                                              
that.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1073                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG thanked the subcommittee for its work and                                                                     
confirmed the committee had no questions.  The chairman commented                                                               
he has been in communication with the bill sponsor, Representative                                                              
Brice and other interested parties.  Chairman Rokeberg said, "It                                                                
appears that the requirements of less than six weeks and there's                                                                
some timing there, we thought about coming up with something that                                                               
-- there is a 30-hour weekly course minimum, so if we can get 30                                                                
hours in that'd be a full week.  So, it looks like we're thinking                                                               
of something less than 180 hours to meet the statute."  He informed                                                             
everyone work would be done with the sponsor in order to reach an                                                               
agreement on a title change and increase the [course] hours while                                                               
keeping the hours below the threshold allowing a student loan.  The                                                             
chairman noted he thinks that is the sponsor's primary objective.                                                               
With that, Chairman Rokeberg indicated the committee would hold                                                                 
CSSB 51(L&C) over in order to allow the Senate to review the                                                                    
suggested changes.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO questioned if the intent is to make the                                                                   
program qualify for the student loan program.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG answered in the negative.  He indicated the                                                                   
intent is to increase the minimum requirements for licensure,                                                                   
mentioning the possible need for a grandfathering provision.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1165                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE informed the committee some of the comments he                                                             
received from people in Fairbanks were for a 30-hour application                                                                
and a 30-hour classroom program, for a total of 60 hours of                                                                     
training, as a bare minimum.  Others discussed a program of up to                                                               
100 hours.  Representative Brice noted that in review of other                                                                  
state statistics, up to 500 hours are required for this area.                                                                   
There are some serious associated health risks.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked if that was only referring to                                                                       
manicurists.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE answered in the affirmative.  He indicated 300                                                             
hours is required for a nail technician in Alabama, 350 hours for                                                               
a nail technician in Arizona, and 240 hours for a nail specialist                                                               
in Florida.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that would be the intention, to come to                                                                 
some agreement with the Senate.  The chairman identified the                                                                    
following issues to be addressed:  determining the level at which                                                               
existing businesses doing manicuring can continue, and increasing                                                               
the hours of the course which would require a title change in the                                                               
legislation.  Chairman Rokeberg restated that SB 51 would be held.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
HB 183 - ALASKA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
[Contains discussion relevant to SB 133.]                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1252                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced that the committee's next order of                                                                  
business is HB 183, "An Act relating to the powers and duties of                                                                
the chair of the Alaska Public Utilities Commission; relating to                                                                
membership on the Alaska Public Utilities Commission; and relating                                                              
to the annual report of the Alaska Public Utilities Commission."                                                                
The chairman indicated communications had been made with the other                                                              
body since HB 183's April 23 hearing with Mr. Wilcox's                                                                          
presentation of the House Special Committee on Utility                                                                          
Restructuring's committee substitute for HB 183, CSHB 183(URS)                                                                  
[Walt Wilcox, aide to the House Special Committee on Utility                                                                    
Restructuring].  Chairman Rokeberg noted the committee has several                                                              
amendments suggested by various parties and that Representative                                                                 
Halcro has provided an additional amendment.  The chairman                                                                      
indicated his intention to take up the amendments and bring forth                                                               
a committee substitute (CS) for examination, noting HB 183 has no                                                               
further committees of referral.  Chairman Rokeberg noted this would                                                             
also allow the committee to have a better feel for what is                                                                      
happening in the other body regarding legislation that could be                                                                 
along the same lines.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1355                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted she had a question at the conclusion                                                             
of the previous week's hearing [April 23] about the removal process                                                             
[of a commissioner by the governor].  Mr. Baldwin had indicated he                                                              
would be available at this hearing for testimony.  Representative                                                               
Murkowski indicated the removal process is in Section 2 of CSHB
183(URS).  [CSHB 183(URS), Section 2 read:                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     * Sec. 2.  AS 42.05.035 is repealed and reenacted to                                                                       
     read:                                                                                                                      
          Sec. 42.05.035.  Removal of commissioners.  The                                                                       
     governor may remove a commissioner from office only for                                                                    
     inefficiency, neglect of duty, or misconduct in office,                                                                    
     or because the member, while serving on the commission,                                                                    
     is convicted of a misdemeanor for violating a statute or                                                                   
     regulation related to public utilities or is convicted of                                                                  
     a felony.  The governor shall deliver to the commissioner                                                                  
     a copy of the charges against the commissioner.  The                                                                       
     commissioner shall have an opportunity to present a                                                                        
     defense in person or through counsel at a public hearing                                                                   
     before the governor or the governor's designee.  The                                                                       
     commissioner shall be informed of the hearing by                                                                           
     registered mail at least 10 days before the hearing date.                                                                  
     At the hearing, the commissioner may confront and                                                                          
     cross-examine adverse witnesses.  Upon removal of the                                                                      
     commissioner, the findings and a complete statement of                                                                     
     all charges made against the commissioner shall be filed                                                                   
     in the Office of the Lieutenant Governor.]                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1384                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JIM BALDWIN, Assistant Attorney General, Governmental Affairs                                                                   
Section, Civil Division (Juneau), Department of Law came forward.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked her question, noting it had been                                                                 
more of a general question.  In Section 2, she thinks there is a                                                                
very vague wording and reviewed the language relating the                                                                       
commissioner's defense.  She requested an explanation of how this                                                               
public process is envisioned, asking what one would have to go                                                                  
through in order to remove a commissioner under this CS.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN responded that this language is similar to the language                                                             
in AS 16.05.280, applying to the Board of Fisheries and the Board                                                               
of Game, and is also fairly similar to the language in AS                                                                       
31.05.007[(d)] applying to the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation                                                                  
Commission (AOGCC).  [AS 16.05.280 read:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
          Sec. 16.05.280. Removal of board members.  The                                                                        
     governor may only remove a board member for inefficiency,                                                                  
     neglect of duty, or misconduct in office, or because the                                                                   
     member while serving on the board is convicted of a                                                                        
     misdemeanor for violating a statute or regulation related                                                                  
     to fish or game or of a felony, and shall do so by                                                                         
     delivering to the member a written copy of the charges                                                                     
     and giving the member an opportunity to be heard in                                                                        
     person or through counsel at a public hearing before the                                                                   
     governor or a designee upon at least 10 days' notice by                                                                    
     registered mail.  The member may confront and                                                                              
     cross-examine adverse witnesses.  Upon removal, the                                                                        
     governor or a designee shall file in the proper state                                                                      
     office the findings and a complete statement of all                                                                        
     charges made against the member.]                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
[AS 31.05.007(d) read:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
          Sec. 31.05.007. Term of office; vacancy; removal.                                                                     
     (d) The governor may remove a commissioner from office for                                                                 
cause including but not limited to incompetence, neglect of duty or                                                             
misconduct in office.  A commissioner, to be removed for cause,                                                                 
shall be given a copy of the charges and afforded an opportunity to                                                             
be publicly heard in person or by counsel in the commissioner's own                                                             
defense upon not less than 10 days' notice.  If a commissioner is                                                               
removed for cause, the governor shall file with the lieutenant                                                                  
governor a complete statement of all charges made against the                                                                   
commissioner and the governor's finding based on the charges,                                                                   
together with a complete record of the proceedings.]                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN noted that because the officer has a property interest                                                              
in the office, in this case a salary is involved, due process has                                                               
to be accorded for removal.  Normally the governor would appoint a                                                              
qualified hearing officer who is usually legally trained, although                                                              
legal training is not necessary.  Mr. Baldwin explained that the                                                                
process is one in which there is a basic right to confront                                                                      
witnesses that have been brought forward in support of the grounds                                                              
for removal.  The officer who is charged or is defending his/her                                                                
title to the office has a right to examine and put in evidence                                                                  
before the hearing officer.  The hearing officer creates a record                                                               
and makes a recommendation to the governor.  The governor makes the                                                             
ultimate decision, and, hopefully, the record supports that                                                                     
decision.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted, then, that the governor is the                                                                  
final decision-maker.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN replied that he believes that is what is intended; it                                                               
is a recommended decision which goes to the governor.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1535                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI understands, from her reading of one of                                                                
the reports, that the [Alaska Public Utilities Commission (APUC)]                                                               
chairman receives the same salary as the other commissioners.  She                                                              
asked if this is correct.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN believed that is correct.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI indicated she assumes that the chair would                                                             
be paid somewhat more if he/she is being given truly broadened                                                                  
powers or authorities as outlined in CSHB 183(URS).                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN replied he does not know the answer to that.  He does                                                               
not know what the thought would be in that area.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted that concluded her questions.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1610                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said to Mr. Baldwin that he is concerned with one                                                             
of the amendments, marked H.3, regarding consumer complaints.  The                                                              
chairman asked if Mr. Baldwin saw any problems with this amendment                                                              
or cared to comment on it.  [Amendment H.3, labeled 1-LS0764\H.3,                                                               
Cramer, 4/21/99, read:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 5, following ";":                                                                                             
          Insert "relating to provisions for the resolution of                                                                  
     consumer complaints;"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, following line 19:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 7.  AS 42.05 is amended by adding a new                                                                       
     section to read:                                                                                                           
               Sec. 42.05.165.  Consumer complaints.  The                                                                       
          commission shall by regulation provide for                                                                            
                    (1) the expedited hearing and resolution                                                                    
          of consumer complaints; and                                                                                           
                    (2) penalties against a party to a                                                                          
          complaint who causes unjustified delays in a                                                                          
          consumer complaint proceeding."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.]                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN indicated that there may be some constraints regarding                                                              
can be done by regulation as far as prescribing penalties.  If the                                                              
intention is to impose a criminal-type penalty, he is not so sure                                                               
there is the power to do that by regulation.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated these are sanctions he is contemplating                                                                
because it would be for delaying or other tactics.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN added, "Something within - within the, not - not some                                                               
criminal (indisc.)."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG mentioned it is common to file for extensions as                                                              
a legal delaying tactic.  He said those are the types of things to                                                              
be avoided.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1749                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN noted the only comment he would have offhand is that                                                                
there is only so much that can be done by regulation, if that is                                                                
the thinking.  Mr. Baldwin indicated he did not see anything with                                                               
the rest of it, but would be happy to consult with his colleagues                                                               
who work with the commission every day.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG reiterated the intention is see whether to adopt                                                              
some of these amendments at this hearing and bring forward another                                                              
CS.  The chairman indicated he would be interested in Mr. Baldwin's                                                             
comments at the next hearing [April 28] on any of the items the                                                                 
committee might adopt.  The chairman indicated this would also be                                                               
forwarded to the APUC and other interested parties.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI, returning to the public hearing process,                                                              
questioned that there is nothing in the current language that would                                                             
put any kind of a time frame on it.  Mentioning due process,                                                                    
expediency, et cetera, she asked if it would be Mr. Baldwin's                                                                   
suggestion that there be any kind of a time frame within which the                                                              
which the charges go to the governor and a hearing be appointed.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1853                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN replied that one of the things that always bothers him                                                              
about these kinds of hearings is that they always turn into                                                                     
trial-type proceedings.  Although the initial idea is that it will                                                              
be a simple administrative hearing, it always turns into something                                                              
else.  Mr. Baldwin expressed that it is probably good there is the                                                              
latitude for that when warranted by a particular case.  It can turn                                                             
into a full trial-type proceeding.  He indicated the language in                                                                
CSHB 183(URS) leaves this pretty open-ended:  There is a notice                                                                 
period and it is a fairly quick time for the public officer to have                                                             
to respond.  Mr. Baldwin indicated, however, in the one other                                                                   
incident he has had experience with, there was a very involved                                                                  
factual proceeding and in order to accord the appropriate due                                                                   
process, "things just sort of had to run their course."  While                                                                  
attempting to specify deadlines to compress the proceedings might                                                               
be desirable from a management standpoint, this may not meet the                                                                
actual needs of the situation.  In other words, the hearing officer                                                             
may have to be developing theories for why these statutory                                                                      
deadlines need to be extended.  Therefore, it might not be wise to                                                              
stipulate those deadlines.  Once there is a hearing officer "on                                                                 
scene" who can assess the facts of the case, that person normally                                                               
proscribes an order for proceeding and that order is followed.  He                                                              
recommended not being too specific.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted discussion at the previous hearing                                                               
of "inefficiency" and asked if Mr. Baldwin could speak to that.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1980                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN indicated he had done some research regarding this and                                                              
suggested the committee might want to pick up the language in AS                                                                
31.05.007 [relating to the AOGCC], "The governor may remove a                                                                   
commissioner from office for cause including ...".  Mr. Baldwin                                                                 
explained this language is very close to the language in CSHB
183(URS), but he noted "cause" is a legal concept which connotes                                                                
some basic problem and not just mere inefficiency.  Mr. Baldwin                                                                 
indicated the current language in CSHB 183(URS) is based on AS                                                                  
16.05.280 [Boards of Fisheries and Game] which does not contain the                                                             
lead-in language about "for cause, including ...".                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 2058                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI commented she reads the language in CSHB
183(URS) as "removed 'only' for inefficiency, neglect of duty,                                                                  
misconduct, or because ...".  Representative Murkowski noted Mr.                                                                
Baldwin is suggesting "including" language.  This perhaps is more                                                               
appropriate than the narrower "only" language.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN indicated he prefers the AOGCC language, AS                                                                         
31.05.007(d), to the Boards of Fisheries and Game language, AS                                                                  
16.05.280, that CSHB 183(URS) was based on because the AOGCC                                                                    
language interjects "cause".  Mr. Baldwin believes it is implied                                                                
[in the current language] that cause is the basic ground for                                                                    
removal, but it does not mention it.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned, "Better than the Oil and Gas?"                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN answered in the affirmative, adding, "There's just a                                                                
slight change because it mentions (indisc.) may be room for cause                                                               
including..."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG agreed.  He questioned that "cause" is a term of                                                              
art.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN answered that it is a legal concept; it is a basic                                                                  
reasonable finding that there is a justified reason for removing                                                                
someone.  Mr. Baldwin relayed that he is having a hard time                                                                     
articulating it the way the courts say it, noting,  "Just because                                                               
somebody didn't show up for work on one day, or because someone                                                                 
can't seem to get their thoughts organized to do their work - it                                                                
implies something more basic than that, that affects the public                                                                 
interest the way the office is being exercised, things of that                                                                  
nature."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2189                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO noted the reference to "neglect of duty" in                                                               
CSHB 183(URS).  Representative Halcro noted one of the complaints                                                               
heard is that a number of the commissioners take an extended period                                                             
off.  He commented, "I think somebody said six weeks; somebody is                                                               
a commercial fisherman, they leave for six weeks.  Could that be                                                                
construed of neglect of duty ...?"                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN responded he is not sure of the facts Representative                                                                
Halcro is referring to.  Mr. Baldwin indicated one of the problems                                                              
would be whether it was authorized leave.  If the leave was                                                                     
authorized, there would not be the basic element that something is                                                              
occurring contrary to the public interest.  Mr. Baldwin indicated                                                               
the "cause" requirement is a safeguard, a standard, in certain                                                                  
respects, to protect the public interest but also the public                                                                    
officer who has a property right in the office.  A certain level of                                                             
proof must be reached to show that there is a basic ground or cause                                                             
for removal, and it requires some sort of violation of the public                                                               
interest.  Mr. Baldwin noted it is a term with a lot of legal                                                                   
meaning, a lot of case law.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG informed the committee there are a number of                                                                  
people listening via teleconference.  With that, the chairman                                                                   
stated he would entertain a conceptual amendment on page 2 from                                                                 
Representative Murkowski to remove "inefficiency" and add "cause"                                                               
and so forth.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 2361                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI made a motion to amend the legislation                                                                 
[CSHB 183(URS)] beginning on page 2, line 1, after "for" by                                                                     
deleting "inefficiency, neglect of duty, or misconduct in office"                                                               
and inserting "for cause including but not limited to incompetence,                                                             
neglect of duty or misconduct in office,".  [CSHB 183(URS), Section                                                             
2, as conceptually amended would read:                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     * Sec. 2.  AS 42.05.035 is repealed and reenacted to                                                                       
     read:                                                                                                                      
          Sec. 42.05.035.  Removal of commissioners.  The                                                                       
     governor may remove a commissioner from office only for                                                                    
     cause including but not limited to incompetence, neglect                                                                   
     of duty or misconduct in office, or because the member,                                                                    
     while serving on the commission, is convicted of a                                                                         
     misdemeanor for violating a statute or regulation related                                                                  
     to public utilities or is convicted of a felony.  ...]                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called a brief at-ease for a tape change.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-47, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI repeated the amendment.  Representative                                                                
Murkowski explained this then leaves in the language regarding                                                                  
conviction of a misdemeanor or a felony.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the amendment would be conceptual,                                                                  
mentioning he thinks the [legislative] drafting manual would not                                                                
require the "not limited to".  He asked if there were any                                                                       
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0101                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS wondered if there are definitions for                                                                     
"incompetence" and "cause".                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted "cause" is a legal term of art, referring                                                               
the question to Mr. Baldwin.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN responded that "cause" is a term which has a lot of                                                                 
meaning that has been established over many, many years and a lot                                                               
of court cases.  He explained it basically means that there has to                                                              
be some rational, reasonable basis for the claim of incompetence.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS asked who determines that.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN replied that it is ultimately determined by a hearing                                                               
officer after taking evidence; the hearing officer makes a                                                                      
recommendation to the governor who makes the ultimate decision.                                                                 
That decision can then be appealed to a court of competent                                                                      
jurisdiction.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG wondered if the same applied to "incompetence".                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN indicated it would be the same thing; all of these                                                                  
grounds are subject to the same kind of an analysis.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG mentioned something about an exhaustive                                                                       
discussion of incompetence, indicating this had possibly taken                                                                  
place a few years previously and Representative Brice might                                                                     
remember this.  The chairman confirmed there were no further                                                                    
questions for Mr. Baldwin.  Chairman Rokeberg asked if there was                                                                
any objection to adopting the conceptual amendment, indicating this                                                             
would be termed Amendment 1.  There being none, Amendment 1 was                                                                 
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0249                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG designated Amendment H.2 as Amendment 2.  The                                                                 
chairman referred to the amendments before the committee, noting                                                                
there was H.2, H.3., H.4 plus an accompanying amendment to H.4,                                                                 
H.6, H.7, and Representative Halcro's amendment.  Chairman Rokeberg                                                             
indicated the amendments would be numbered in accordance with their                                                             
numbers, and Representative Halcro's amendment would be designated                                                              
Amendment 8.  The chairman noted, in addition, he has an amendment                                                              
to the amendment to Amendment H.4.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0345                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG made a motion to adopt Amendment 2.  Amendment 2,                                                             
labeled 1-LS0764\H.2, Cramer, 4/21/99, read:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 5, following ";":                                                                                             
          Insert "relating to a management information                                                                          
     system;"                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, following line 1:                                                                                                  
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 9.  MANAGEMENT INFORMATION SYSTEM.  The                                                                       
     legislature encourages the Alaska Public Utilities                                                                         
     Commission to continue to develop its management                                                                           
     information system and to make the system available to                                                                     
     utilities and to the public."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI objected for purposes of discussion.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated that he would like to make an amendment to                                                             
the amendment.  The chairman indicated that he would like to                                                                    
include "electronically available and Internet availability".  He                                                               
feels this is a major issue.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI spoke to her objection, referring to                                                                   
testimony at the last hearing [April 23] from either Mr. Yould                                                                  
[Eric Yould, Executive Director, Alaska Rural Electric Cooperative                                                              
Association, Incorporated (ARECA)] or Mr. Rowe [Jim Rowe, Executive                                                             
Director, Alaska Telephone Association (ATA)].  Representative                                                                  
Murkowski noted the April 22, 1999, letter in the bill packet                                                                   
co-authored by both Mr. Rowe and Mr. Yould.  She commented they had                                                             
recommended that the management information system language be                                                                  
strengthened.  [The relevant portion of Mr. Yould's and Mr. Rowe's                                                              
joint 4/22/99 letter read:                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Although we are aware that the APUC is developing a                                                                        
     Management Information System for their dockets, we think                                                                  
     a legislative directive would assure the successful                                                                        
     completion of this project.  Therefore we think that it                                                                    
     would be appropriate to establish in statute this method                                                                   
     to manage dockets with the following language.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     "The commission shall establish a Management Information                                                                   
     System, accessible by the general public through the                                                                       
     Internet, for the purpose of tracking, scheduling and                                                                      
     managing all dockets within the commission."]                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative Murkowski referred to Mr. Yould's and Mr. Rowe's                                                                 
suggested language for establishment of the management information                                                              
system.  She noted this was as opposed to encouraging the APUC to                                                               
do this.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0423                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the use of "shall" would result in a                                                                
fiscal note associated with the legislation.  The chairman informed                                                             
the committee that the commission is already on the way, but one of                                                             
the issues is this availability on the "Net" [Internet] and that is                                                             
his reason.  Chairman Rokeberg indicated the drafter could rebuild                                                              
Amendment 2 by amendment, further indicating that the "encourages"                                                              
language rather than the "shall" language would allow it to be                                                                  
viewed as a friendly amendment to the amendment.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI offered, "The legislature encourages the                                                               
PUC [public utilities commission] to continue to develop its                                                                    
management information system, making the system accessible by the                                                              
general public through the Internet for the purposes of tracking,                                                               
scheduling and managing all dockets within the commission."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG mentioned Mr. Yould's and Mr. Rowe's joint                                                                    
letter.  He requested that Representative Murkowski restate her                                                                 
language for staff.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI restated the amendment to Amendment 2:                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     "The legislature encourages the PUC [public utilities                                                                      
     commission] to continue to develop its management                                                                          
     information system to make the system accessible by the                                                                    
     general public through the Internet for the purpose of                                                                     
     tracking, scheduling and managing all dockets within the                                                                   
     commission."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG confirmed everyone had that.  He asked if there                                                               
were any objections to the amendment to the amendment.  There being                                                             
none, the amendment to Amendment 2 was adopted.  Amendment 2 as                                                                 
amended read:                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 5, following ";":                                                                                             
          Insert "relating to a management information                                                                          
     system;"                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, following line 1:                                                                                                  
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 9.  MANAGEMENT INFORMATION SYSTEM.  The                                                                       
     legislature encourages the PUC to continue to develop its                                                                  
     management information system to make the system                                                                           
     accessible by the general public through the Internet for                                                                  
     the purpose of tracking, scheduling and managing all                                                                       
     dockets within the commission."                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there were any objections to the                                                                     
amendment as amended.  There being be none, Amendment 2 [as                                                                     
amended] was adopted.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0577                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG made a motion to adopt Amendment 3.  Amendment 3,                                                             
labeled 1-LS0764\H.3, Cramer, 4/21/99, read:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 5, following ";":                                                                                             
          Insert "relating to provisions for the resolution of                                                                  
     consumer complaints;"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, following line 19:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 7.  AS 42.05 is amended by adding a new                                                                       
     section to read:                                                                                                           
               Sec. 42.05.165.  Consumer complaints.  The                                                                       
          commission shall by regulation provide for                                                                            
                    (1) the expedited hearing and resolution                                                                    
          of consumer complaints; and                                                                                           
                    (2) penalties against a party to a                                                                          
          complaint who causes unjustified delays in a                                                                          
          consumer complaint proceeding."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE objected for discussion.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated he thinks the amendment's purpose is to                                                             
impress upon the commission the need to address those consumer                                                                  
complaints.  The chairman commented a guideline had not been                                                                    
stipulated; one of the amendments did have the prevailing party                                                                 
winning, but it was felt that was inappropriate also, because it is                                                             
usually a consumer against some kind of service provider.  The APUC                                                             
is the intermediary hearing officer.  However, the chairman                                                                     
expressed that it is the intention to send a very strong message                                                                
here that the commission draft regulation to take this issue up to                                                              
make sure it can expedite further, which reflects the (indisc.)                                                                 
report.  The commission is given a lot of flexibility here, but, he                                                             
commented, "It's a statutory kick in the rear end here to do it."                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 0653                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked if there is a backlog of consumer                                                                    
complaints; he wondered if there is a concern about complaints, if                                                              
complaints do exist, not being dealt with in a timely manner.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG quoted a portion of the "Message from the                                                                     
Chairman" of the APUC's 1998 annual report, "The consumer                                                                       
protection division of the Commission is one of our busiest and                                                                 
most important.  Our consumer specialists report 706 consumer                                                                   
complaints, a 23 percent increase over the previous year.  As one                                                               
of the few consumer response sections in state government, we feel                                                              
it is essential to have more resources in this area [Sam Cotten,                                                                
APUC Chairman]."  Chairman Rokeberg noted the budget does provide                                                               
nine more positions this year at APUC.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI referred to Mr. Yould's and Mr. Rowe's                                                                 
letter.  From under the heading "Consumer Complaints," she quoted,                                                              
"We are not aware of consumer complaints that languish.  Summaries                                                              
of consumer complaints are presented monthly at a public meeting                                                                
and upon occasion a particular complaint is reviewed.  We believe                                                               
staff resolves most consumer complaints without need for referral                                                               
to the commissioners."  Representative Murkowski said she had made                                                              
a notation on this amendment that Mr. Rowe had said that this                                                                   
particular amendment was moot; however, she does not remember where                                                             
that came from.  Representative Murkowski guesses she thinks it                                                                 
does not hurt to go ahead and put this in the statute so that it is                                                             
known that resolution of the consumer complaints will be provided                                                               
for by regulation.  She indicated that although there is no current                                                             
backlog of complaints, one could be anticipated, which justifies                                                                
the amendment.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0772                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE added he believes that all that is really                                                                  
being said is that the commission will establish for expedited                                                                  
hearings when necessary.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted it is a public policy statement; the                                                                    
legislature wants the commission to take up expedite the resolution                                                             
of these hearings.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE agreed; it would allow for areas where there                                                               
is a particular topic of high concern which needs to be                                                                         
fast-tracked above and beyond the regular process.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said that, on the other hand, it could be argued                                                              
on the other hand that it may be superfluous.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO indicated his agreement with the amendment                                                                
He indicated that even the NRRI [National Regulatory Research                                                                   
Institute] report speaks about how commissioners from around the                                                                
United States have agreed that in the near future much of the work                                                              
public utility commissions do will be directed toward protecting                                                                
consumers and (indisc.) markets and educating them [this appeared                                                               
to be quoted from the NRRI report].  Therefore, Representative                                                                  
Halcro thinks the amendment appropriate.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS questioned, then, if penalties would be set                                                               
by the commission.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG answered in the affirmative; the penalties would                                                              
be set via the regulations.  The chairman added, "And this is                                                                   
against the caveat from Mr. Baldwin put on earlier, that it would                                                               
have to be tested to make sure.  ... I'd consider them sanctions                                                                
(indisc.) hopefully the Department of Law will give us some further                                                             
recommendations on Wednesday [April 28] after (indisc.) chance to                                                               
review this."  The chairman asked if there were objections                                                                      
maintained to Amendment 3.  There being no further objection,                                                                   
Amendment 3 was adopted.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0901                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG made a motion to adopt Amendment 4, noting there                                                              
is an amendment [in printed form] to this amendment.  Amendment 4,                                                              
labeled 1-LS0764\H.4, Cramer, 4/23/99, read:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 13, following "(a)":                                                                                          
          Insert "Members shall be qualified as follows:                                                                        
                    (1) three members shall be at least one                                                                     
               of the following:                                                                                                
                         (A) a graduate of an accredited                                                                        
               school of law;                                                                                                   
                         (B) a graduate of an accredited                                                                        
               university with a major in engineering; or                                                                       
                         (C) a graduate of an accredited                                                                        
               university with a major in finance,                                                                              
               accounting, or business administration; and                                                                      
                    (2) two members shall be consumers.                                                                         
               (b)"                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Reletter the following subsection accordingly.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS objected for purposes of discussion.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG moved the amendment to Amendment 4.  The printed                                                              
amendment to Amendment 4 offered by Representative Rokeberg,                                                                    
labeled "AMENDMENT to Amendment h.4," read:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, Line 8                                                                                                             
          AFTER:  "accounting,"                                                                                                 
          INSERT:  "economics, public policy"                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there were any objections to the                                                                     
amendment to the amendment to the amendment.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE objected for purposes of discussion.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG explained that the amendment to amendment is to                                                               
add the academic studies of economics and public policy.  The                                                                   
chairman commented he wished to amend his amendment to the                                                                      
amendment and say "public administration".  He indicated that is                                                                
the formal term.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
There was some committee discussion regarding Willamette                                                                        
University, Chairman Rokeberg's and Representative Halcro's alma                                                                
mater, and the university mascot.  Representative Murkowski also                                                                
expressed approval of Willamette University as well.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0983                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA wondered if the addition of "or a degree in                                                               
a related field of study" to the amendment would be considered.                                                                 
She suspects there are degrees from different universities which                                                                
may have similar titles, but would perhaps be excluded if there are                                                             
specific degree name requirements.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG responded that the existing statute has                                                                       
specifically stipulated seats for law, accounting and engineering.                                                              
Significant testimony in the special committee was that this                                                                    
hampers the ability to find good quality people.  The purpose of                                                                
the amendment before the committee, in total, is to at least "raise                                                             
the bar" so that there are at least some requirements or so forth.                                                              
The chairman expressed his concerns regarding set requirements,                                                                 
noting he is actually lukewarm on the entire amendment.  Chairman                                                               
Rokeberg indicated CSHB 183(URS) basically reads "five public                                                                   
members."  He questioned whether the committee wanted to come up                                                                
with "weasel words" like "that have demonstrated competence and                                                                 
professionalism in other fields" rather than being specific as to                                                               
fields.  In other words, trying to raise the bar from just a public                                                             
member to demonstrated competency.  The chairman said would be                                                                  
happy to have the committee's input on this.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated some agreement.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1118                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the amendment in total narrowed it down                                                             
but it might perhaps be too narrow.  The chairman noted on the                                                                  
other hand, the possibility of simply having a public member,                                                                   
adding, "So if anybody can come up with some good weasel words to                                                               
general competency ..."  Chairman Rokeberg questioned the feelings                                                              
of the committee.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated he thinks he is agreeing with the                                                                
chairman.  It would be okay to sort of establish some standards,                                                                
but indicated he is not sure if they want to establish specific                                                                 
standards.  Representative Brice commented that he has been                                                                     
involved in enough floor fights and confirmation fights on the                                                                  
vagaries involved with what requirements are in statute and how                                                                 
people fit that.  He noted his opinion is somewhat that it is                                                                   
interesting concept but he doesn't know whether or not they will                                                                
get there from here.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the testimony in the special committee                                                              
regarding qualifications was that the legislature still reviews and                                                             
confirms the commissioners.  The chairman referred to the Real                                                                  
Estate Commission and the confirmation hearings of the Governor's                                                               
appointees to that body which had taken place at the beginning of                                                               
the meeting.  The chairman indicated that if those appointees had                                                               
not been known to him, the committee would have thoroughly grilled                                                              
them because those appointees make quasi-judicial decisions.  He                                                                
added, "And those people that serve on the APUC and some of these                                                               
other - and the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission and the                                                              
'Royalty (ph)' Commission [Alaska Royalty Oil and Gas Development                                                               
Advisory Board] have to make sure that they're competent to perform                                                             
that."  There are only so many positions that are appointments that                                                             
are not run concurrently with the governor.  There are those                                                                    
commissions that have appointments that survive the governorships                                                               
and have special quasi-judicial powers.  Amongst these is the APUC.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1277                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI admitted some confusion and wondered if                                                                
wondered if the intent was that at least three of the members shall                                                             
be one lawyer, one engineer and one (indisc.).                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that is not the intention.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI indicated, then, the intention of the                                                                  
amendment is that there is a list and that three are chosen from                                                                
that list and plus the two consumer members; therefore, more than                                                               
one person could be represented from an area on that list.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG agreed that was the intention, but he is backing                                                              
off even from the amendment.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted, if she may speak to the                                                                         
professional qualifications, she has not spent much time in front                                                               
of the APUC herself, but other members of the [law] firm she has                                                                
been involved with in the past have.  She stated she has learned                                                                
that it is helpful to have someone on the commission who has,                                                                   
especially in the engineering field, some understanding of                                                                      
engineering.  Representative Murkowski indicated the same thing                                                                 
probably applies with respect to having training in the field of                                                                
law, and financial and public administration fields.  She is                                                                    
concerned that people who do not have their own area of expertise                                                               
have to rely more on their staff.  Representative Murkowski                                                                     
commented, "And their staff is going to be the good staff and                                                                   
they're going to tell you what it is from their perspective, but                                                                
every now and again it's wise to question what your staff is                                                                    
saying, and you can't do that if you don't have a level of                                                                      
expertise in certain areas."  She also indicated the possibility of                                                             
a commissioner consulting another commissioner who has that                                                                     
expertise regarding staff recommendations; she thinks the                                                                       
professional expertise is a helpful thing to have.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1427                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA offered another possible change to the                                                                    
amendment.  She suggested, "a graduate of an accredited university                                                              
and proven professional experience with demonstrated - either                                                                   
specific skills required in service as a commissioner or just                                                                   
skills required in service as a commissioner", might work because                                                               
so many times people's experience is greater than their degree                                                                  
itself.  She feels that things other than the specific skills                                                                   
mentioned here are more handy to a group that is trying to solve                                                                
problems.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG agreed, but said, on the other hand, it is very                                                               
general.  The chairman also said he does not like the inclusion in                                                              
the original amendment that two of the members shall be consumers                                                               
and would rather just make them public members; there is no                                                                     
qualification whatsoever since anyone can be a consumer.  Chairman                                                              
Rokeberg commented he did not think that was appropriate; he feels                                                              
even those people who are ostensibly supposed to be representing                                                                
consumers in this area need to have the intellectual ability to                                                                 
take up the task.  Therefore, that speaks more to their point of                                                                
view than their intelligence or education - not to say that by                                                                  
implication that consumers are any less educated than any other                                                                 
professional.  The chairman indicated it was the construction that                                                              
troubled him.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1526                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE questioned how this would technically work.                                                                
He asked what would happen with the sitting commissioners:  Would                                                               
they have to have their backgrounds reviewed and would the                                                                      
commission have to be restructured around this formula on the                                                                   
effective date?                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI stated that the existing statutes already                                                              
state that there shall be one lawyer, one engineer and one                                                                      
accountant.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE commented that he was thinking backwards,                                                                  
indicating he had been somewhat confused.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked, "If this is already required then why                                                              
are ...?"                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI clarified that what is required is that                                                                
the commission have one lawyer, one engineer and one accountant.                                                                
The amendment would allow for three members to be chosen from  all                                                              
these different professions.  Therefore, it would be possible to                                                                
have two public administrators and one engineer, instead of one                                                                 
from each.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI and REPRESENTATIVE BRICE both agreed the                                                               
situation would be okay if the amendment was adopted.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI commented there is more flexibility with                                                               
this.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA agrees that there is more flexibility, but                                                                
she suggests opening it up just a tiny bit wider because there are                                                              
lots of resources out there.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1616                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS asked if the amendment to the amendment had                                                               
been approved yet.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG answered in the negative.  He commented the                                                                   
committee was having somewhat of an informal work session.  The                                                                 
chairman noted he had been thinking about something a little more                                                               
generic, "that the governor should consider the background,                                                                     
education and professional competency when appointing the public                                                                
members", because there are five public members in the current                                                                  
legislation [no required qualifications for any APUC commissioner].                                                             
This language would require that all five of the appointees would                                                               
have to have a good background, education and professional                                                                      
competency before being appointed.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI questioned that wouldn't it be assumed the                                                             
governor is checking that in the first place.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated it might be redundant.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI said she thought the chairman was applying                                                             
this to the two public members.  She likes that idea because it                                                                 
gives the public members some qualification.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO said the education and professional                                                                       
background of the first three public appointees has already been                                                                
mandated.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said that the bill could also be left alone.  The                                                             
legislation currently says five public members, but does not define                                                             
them.  The chairman indicated this was the special committee's                                                                  
decision after this same discussion.  He clarified that there are                                                               
the qualifications in existing statute for three of the seats.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI stated that she still likes the                                                                        
professional qualifications.  She reiterated that she likes having                                                              
a pool of professional qualifications to choose from for the first                                                              
three members and then having two public members.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if ARECA or ATA had any opinions on                                                                     
Amendment 4.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ERIC YOULD, Executive Director, Alaska Rural Electric Cooperative                                                               
Association, Incorporated, indicated he thinks ARECA has already                                                                
testified on this.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if Mr. Wilcox to comment as the                                                                         
representative of the bill sponsor.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1761                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
WALT WILCOX, Legislative Assistant to Representative Bill Hudson,                                                               
Alaska State Legislature, came forward as the aide the to House                                                                 
Special Committee on Utility Restructuring, the bill sponsor.  Mr.                                                              
Wilcox explained that the special committee had had lengthy                                                                     
discussion on this matter.  He stated, "As it turns out, the                                                                    
original reason for having a lawyer, an engineer and an accountant,                                                             
was when the commission was first formed it was a very small                                                                    
commission with very little staff, if any.  So, they had to perform                                                             
their own work.  They had to be their own lawyer, their own                                                                     
engineer, their own accountant.  Subsequent to that, I think we've                                                              
got nearly 50 employees that take that burden off of the                                                                        
commissioners.  So, from that perspective the Utility Restructuring                                                             
Committee decided that five at large members were the best way to                                                               
go for the simple reason that you had a larger pool to draw from,                                                               
keeping in mind that the checks and balances are there with the                                                                 
governor appointing and the legislature confirming the                                                                          
appointment."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG withdrew Amendment 4.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1810                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG made a motion to adopt Amendment 5.  The chairman                                                             
indicated the amendment's intention is to help expedite the matters                                                             
in the dockets before the commission.  It sets a deadline target,                                                               
but does allow the commission the flexibility to extend if need be.                                                             
He said, "It sends a big message and huge shot of a cannon across                                                               
the bow."  Amendment 5, labeled 1-LS0764\H.5, Cramer, 4/23/99,                                                                  
read:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 4, following ";":                                                                                             
          Insert "relating to hearings held by the Alaska                                                                       
     Public Utilities Commission;"                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, following line 19:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 7.  AS 42.05.141 is amended by adding a new                                                                   
     subsection to read:                                                                                                        
               (d) On the filing of a petition, application,                                                                    
          or complaint concerning a matter within the                                                                           
          jurisdiction of the commission under this chapter,                                                                    
          the chair of the commission shall promptly fix a                                                                      
          date for hearing.  The hearing shall be held                                                                          
          without undue delay.  The hearing may not be                                                                          
          scheduled to begin later than five months after the                                                                   
          petition, application, or complaint was filed                                                                         
          unless the commission approves an extension of time                                                                   
          for good cause.  After the conclusion of the                                                                          
          hearing, the commission shall enter its order                                                                         
          within 30 days."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 4, following line 5:                                                                                                  
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 11.  The provisions of AS 42.05.141(d),                                                                       
     enacted by sec. 7 of this Act, apply to petitions,                                                                         
     applications, and complaints first filed with the                                                                          
     commission on or after the effective date of this Act."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill section accordingly.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI questioned, then, if there are deadlines                                                               
of five months and orders being entered within 30 days as stated in                                                             
the amendment, what happens if they fail to comply.  She asked what                                                             
the enforcement is.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented the legislature cuts off their funding.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI referred to previous testimony, noting she                                                             
agrees that something needs to be done to eliminate the delays and                                                              
the backlog.  However, recognizing the complexities of some of                                                                  
these cases, she is concerned with a deadline.  Representative                                                                  
Murkowski noted it is quite possible that both parties would                                                                    
request continuances and this amendment would not allow a                                                                       
continuance.  These tariff rate cases go on for years, and it is                                                                
not necessarily because the commissioners are not acting                                                                        
expediently, it is because it is incredibly complex and the parties                                                             
need additional time.  Therefore, she thinks there needs to be                                                                  
something which says that expediency is important and should be the                                                             
number one priority, but she does not think a message should be                                                                 
sent conveying that the quality be sacrificed for the expediency.                                                               
Representative Murkowski indicated there needs to be a                                                                          
reasonableness provision.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG agreed.  However, his rejoinder would be  that                                                                
there is the ability to extend after the period.  There is no                                                                   
extension provision for the order being issued within 30 days after                                                             
the hearing.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO noted he agrees with Representative                                                                       
Murkowski.  He believes that it was brought up at the last hearing                                                              
that a quicker response would be accepted even though it may not be                                                             
well-thought out.  Representative Halcro referred to the NRRI                                                                   
report, commenting it does say that.  He apparently quoted, "Most                                                               
who commented on the training that had been provided for writing                                                                
orders regarded the training exercise as a failure."  Therefore,                                                                
timeliness is the key issue, but if "you slap this 30 days on them,                                                             
and if they have a more complex case that maybe takes a little bit                                                              
more homework to do, or they don't get their training in line in                                                                
time, I think ... you have some problems here."                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if anyone in the audience cared to comment.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1973                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REED STOOPS, Lobbyist for General Communications, Incorporated                                                                  
(GCI), came forward.  Mr. Stoops commented that he has also sat                                                                 
through all the hearings on this subject.  Not having dockets                                                                   
completed in a timely manner is probably the most common complaint                                                              
he has heard, and certainly his client has had ample experience                                                                 
with delays of years before decisions.  Mr. Stoops agrees with                                                                  
Chairman Rokeberg that the intent is to set at least a target date                                                              
for a deadline for a docket, which would be adequate in most cases.                                                             
Mr. Stoops noted the amendment clearly says the commission has the                                                              
opportunity to extend that decision date for good cause; presumably                                                             
the commission would simply enter a letter or make an announcement                                                              
that it has extended, and it would be required to give a reason for                                                             
the extension.  He observed that it is not really written very                                                                  
tightly and GCI's preference would probably be to make it tighter,                                                              
but the language would at least give incentive to the commission.                                                               
He does not believe that anyone from the previous hearing disagreed                                                             
with the concept of trying to find some reasonable way to get a                                                                 
timely decision without being so strict that the commission is                                                                  
limited in truly complex cases.  He added he would assume that is                                                               
good cause if both parties agree that there ought to be an                                                                      
extension.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI said that she does not disagree with Mr.                                                               
Stoops' comments regarding obtaining an extension for good cause.                                                               
However, she is looking more at the timeliness of the commission                                                                
entering the order.  She reads that as "after the conclusion of the                                                             
hearing, the commission shall enter its order within 30 days."                                                                  
Therefore, the commission has a 30-day window.  Recognizing that                                                                
there can be rate hearings lasting for years and banker boxes of                                                                
pleadings and dockets, et cetera, she does not know that it is                                                                  
reasonable to really "kick out an order within 30 days."  She                                                                   
believes it is probably a good idea to put a time frame on it, but                                                              
she personally does not feel that 30 days is reasonable for all                                                                 
dockets.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2087                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS suggested that perhaps the good cause extension could be                                                             
added to the 30 days as well.  He thinks it is sort of a                                                                        
rule-of-thumb type deadline which would cover most dockets because                                                              
most of them are not that complicated.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated trying to categorize the type of                                                                    
dockets and set up a time frame was looked at.  The chairman                                                                    
questioned if anyone else cared to comment on this.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 2113                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. YOULD noted he had not planned to testify, but thinks it is a                                                               
good amendment.  He agrees that it may not be as tightly written as                                                             
ARECA would like to see it.  Mr. Yould suggested amending the                                                                   
language that begins on line 8 of the printed amendment, "The                                                                   
hearing shall be held without undue delay", by inserting, "however"                                                             
following "delay".  This would ties the two sentences together and                                                              
indicates that there is a desire to do it as soon as possible, but                                                              
certainly not later than five months.  Mr. Yould commented that                                                                 
when ARECA's general managers met with the APUC commissioners on                                                                
April 15, 1999, they asked the commissioners the same question:                                                                 
Would you all like to see statutory dates.  He noted, "I guess I'm                                                              
kind of speaking on their behalf and I hope I'm not getting in                                                                  
trouble with this:  They kind of indicated that when their feet are                                                             
held to the fire, that ... they will get the dockets out, and they                                                              
- the body language was not negative I guess is the best way to put                                                             
it."  [The amended language Mr. Yould suggested would read:  "The                                                               
hearing shall be held without undue delay; however, the hearing may                                                             
not be scheduled to begin later than five months after the                                                                      
petition, application, or complaint was filed unless the commission                                                             
approves an extension of time for good cause."]                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked if Mr. Yould interprets the amendment                                                               
to read that the hearing may be extended for time:  You can extend                                                              
the period for the hearing for good cause.  He reads it that the                                                                
order has to be given within 30 days, as did Representative                                                                     
Murkowski.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. YOULD answered yes.  However, he thinks the commission should                                                               
have that flexibility for good cause but the intent is there.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he would finish the chairman's thought                                                                
that they duplicate "unless the commission approves an extension of                                                             
the time for good cause after 30 days".                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2204                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG understood Representative Brice's comment as an                                                               
amendment to Amendment 5, after "30 days" on line 12 [of the                                                                    
printed amendment] to add "unless the commission approves an                                                                    
extension of time for good cause".  [The sentence as amended would                                                              
read: "After conclusion of the hearing, the commission shall enter                                                              
its order within 30 days unless the commission approves an                                                                      
extension of time for good cause."] The chairman asked if there                                                                 
were any objections to the amendment to the amendment.  There being                                                             
none, the amendment to Amendment 5 was adopted.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS noted he did not have any major opposition                                                                
but it seems like the amendment to the amendment just adopted                                                                   
"takes all the teeth really out of what you're trying to do with                                                                
this amendment, if you're trying to force some decision to be made                                                              
... if the commission's will is to stall ... is to have lots more                                                               
time, they're going to have to lots more time anyway because                                                                    
they'll just keep adding on to their extension here."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG suggested another way to do it would to say                                                                   
either 60 days or 45 days.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS replied that he would rather do it that way                                                               
himself.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Yould, Mr. Stoops and Mr. Baldwin what                                                              
their preference would be.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2270                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN concurred with Representative Murkowski's comments.  He                                                             
does not think this works; he witnessed the legislature attempt to                                                              
put a six-month time period on the court system for getting                                                                     
opinions out, that did not work.  Mr. Baldwin thinks there are many                                                             
ways for boards to wiggle out of these things.  He agrees with                                                                  
Representative Murkowski and does not think it should be done at                                                                
all.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS indicated a date certain would be preferable to the                                                                  
current amendment language.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked whether 45 or 60 would be preferable.  The                                                              
chairman asked if Mr. Yould had any preference.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. YOULD commented the present system is not working at all.                                                                   
Anything better than that would be preferable.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned, however, which is more realistic 30,                                                              
45 or 60 days.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. YOULD said to use 30 or 45 days.  If it doesn't work, it                                                                    
doesn't work legally, but the point is it will work most of the                                                                 
time.  In other words, the intent is there; the commission will try                                                             
to attain it, but it may not always make it.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned if Mr. Cotten or Mr. Lohr [Robert,                                                                 
Lohr, Executive Director, APUC] were online.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SAM COTTEN, Chairman and Commissioner, Alaska Public Utilities                                                                  
Commission, Department of Commerce and Economic Development                                                                     
responded via teleconference from Anchorage.  He confirmed for                                                                  
Chairman Rokeberg that he had copies of the amendments.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Cotten for his comments on Amendment 5.                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN said he thinks Mr. Yould was probably referring to his                                                               
(Mr. Cotten's) comments in the reflection of the meeting the other                                                              
day [April 15, ARECA/APUC].  Mr. Cotten related he harkened back to                                                             
the lack of a limit on the number of days the legislature could be                                                              
in session when he was first a legislator.  He was convinced it was                                                             
a bad idea when it was proposed to limit the legislative session to                                                             
120 days.  After it came into effect, he was really happy about it.                                                             
He thinks they could make it work well there as well, although he                                                               
is not sure what the appropriate time period is.  Mr. Cotten noted                                                              
he does not think it is a bad thing to say that an order should be                                                              
issued within a certain time period.  He indicated that there are                                                               
instances when it is difficult to get a consensus among the                                                                     
commission members, but a time limit might also help in that                                                                    
regard.  Therefore, speaking for himself, not the commission, he                                                                
thinks some sort of deadlines would have a positive effect on the                                                               
operation of the commission as far as timeliness is concerned.  It                                                              
might be difficult to craft the proper language to achieve that,                                                                
but he favors it as a concept.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 2378                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE understands that GCI has a very difficult                                                                  
docket in front of the commission that is taking a great deal of                                                                
time.  He questioned if the commission could have addressed that                                                                
docket under this time line.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN responded he is not sure which one [docket]                                                                          
Representative Brice is referring to.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted, then, there are multiple [dockets].                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA questioned if the "unless good cause" at the                                                              
end would give enough latitude.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN replied he thinks that would work pretty well on the                                                                 
first part.  If the parties agreed to try to work it out amongst                                                                
themselves and that pushed it past the deadline, that would                                                                     
probably be good cause.  Mr. Cotten emphasized another point he                                                                 
wanted to make is that not everything goes to hearing.  Often an                                                                
application comes in and is approved as a routine matter;                                                                       
therefore, it is not necessary to assign hearing date for each                                                                  
case.  This might be a technical consideration.  He indicated                                                                   
allowing the "for good cause" on the chosen amount of days -                                                                    
whether 30, 45, or another number - would provide the commission an                                                             
opportunity for an extension, if commission is required to explain                                                              
why.  He further indicated the biggest problems have been failure                                                               
by the commission to reach a consensus, or that someone insists on                                                              
writing 30 or 40 pages of commentary before even reaching the                                                                   
section in the order which announces the decision.  Mr. Cotten                                                                  
added, "And, again, I think that's oftentimes unnecessary."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
[TESTIMONY INTERRUPTED BY AUTOMATIC TAPE CHANGE]                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-47, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO stated, "...60, 45's a compromise."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG suggested 5 non-seriously, noting that came from                                                              
the industry.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated 60 days would not be long enough.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI indicated she thought it wouldn't be long                                                              
enough in certain instances.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG agreed with 60 days.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS indicated he agreed with 60 days.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA questioned if "unless good cause" was being                                                               
added in.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI commented, "'Unless good cause', you                                                                   
delete that..."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS stated 60 days without any exemption.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned if Representative Harris wanted to                                                                 
amend his amendment.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS responded it was not his amendment.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated it had been assigned to him.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0031                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS made a motion to adopt a conceptual amendment                                                             
"that deletes the section that was just put behind 30 days and                                                                  
changes 30 days to 60."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the committee would discuss this at the                                                             
next hearing on the legislation [Wednesday, April 28].  The                                                                     
chairman asked if there was any objection to the amendment [to the                                                              
amendment].                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE objected, noting that he had just made the                                                                 
amendment [to the amendment].  Representative Brice explained he                                                                
made the amendment [to the amendment] because he thinks the                                                                     
"pressure relief valve" will be needed.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented that is a good point, suggesting that                                                               
the committee remain with the 60 days.  The committee can then see                                                              
what happens between now and Wednesday [April 28].  The chairman                                                                
indicated the issue could be taken up again at that time.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said, then, with that assurance, he withdraws                                                              
his objection.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there are any objections to the                                                                      
[conceptual] amendment to the amendment.  The chairman gaveled                                                                  
down, indicating the amendment to the amendment had been adopted.                                                               
Chairman Rokeberg stated there is a technical amendment he would                                                                
like to make as well.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0066                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted she had no objection.  However,                                                                  
because the committee is still discussing this and whether 60 days                                                              
is enough, Representative Murkowski commented she had brought up                                                                
the question of enforcement and has not seen any amendments to that                                                             
effect.  Perhaps this is also something the committee needs before                                                              
it at the next hearing.  She said, "How do you hold the feet to the                                                             
fire?"                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG joked that the chairman [of the APUC] has to dive                                                             
off the Captain Cook statute.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked the chairman's brief indulgence and                                                                 
informed the committee his staff had proposed a scenario to                                                                     
encourage a quick decision-making process.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0094                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JONATHON LACK, Legislative Assistant to Representative Andrew                                                                   
Halcro, Alaska State Legislature, came forward.  Mr. Lack indicated                                                             
he had just pointed out to Representative Halcro that the supreme                                                               
court has an order in place for superior and district court judges,                                                             
providing a maximum of six months from the time a motion is                                                                     
completed until the time an order is issued.  If a judge has not                                                                
issued an order at the end of the six months, the judge has to                                                                  
self-report to the supreme court and is not paid until the order is                                                             
issued in that matter.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the committee would take this under                                                                 
advisement.  He noted the amendment to the amendment had been                                                                   
adopted.  He would like to propose the third ["second"] amendment                                                               
to the amendment.  It would be a technical conceptual amendment to                                                              
Amendment 5 to pick up on what Mr. Cotten had said.  Chairman                                                                   
Rokeberg noted, "it's when a hearing is appropriate here, to change                                                             
the wording here."  Mr. Cotten's testimony was that a hearing was                                                               
not appropriate at all times; therefore, it is necessary to                                                                     
conceptually amend this amendment "to something of the effect that                                                              
on a hearing -- when a hearing is appropriate."  Chairman Rokeberg                                                              
confirmed the committee was in understanding and he commented that                                                              
the word "hearing" is used several times.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE noted the language, "when appropriate".                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented that it is a conceptual amendment,                                                                  
indicating the drafter could determine the proper phrasing.  The                                                                
chairman asked if there was any further discussion on Amendment 5.                                                              
He noted they have it on the 60 days and with the proviso that the                                                              
committee will be taking this up again, hoping some feedback is                                                                 
received from the commission, industry, and all affected parties.                                                               
The chairman reiterated his intention is to put this into a CS,                                                                 
"and make sure they know we're serious and then they'll hear back."                                                             
He asked if there were any further comments and stated the                                                                      
objection is removed from Amendment 5.  Chairman Rokeberg                                                                       
questioned if there were any objections to Amendment 5 as amended.                                                              
There being none, Amendment 5 as amended was adopted.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
[Note: the chairman did not formally ask the committee if there                                                                 
were any objections to the third ["second"] amendment to Amendment                                                              
5, the technical conceptual amendment to the amendment, but no                                                                  
objections were voiced by the committee].                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0181                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG made a motion to adopt Amendment 6.  Amendment 6,                                                             
labeled 1-LS0764\H.6, Cramer, 4/23/99, read:                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 4, following ";":                                                                                             
          Insert "relating to procedural motions of the Alaska                                                                  
     Public Utilities Commission;"                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, following line 19:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 7.  AS 42.05.151(b) is amended to read:                                                                       
               (b) The commission shall adopt regulations                                                                       
          governing practice and procedure, consistent with                                                                     
          due process of law, including the conduct of formal                                                                   
          and informal investigations, prehearing                                                                               
          [PRE-HEARING] conferences, hearings, and                                                                              
          proceedings, and the handling of procedural motions                                                                   
          by a single commissioner.  The commission, or an                                                                      
          assigned commissioner, shall enter an order on                                                                        
          procedural motions within 10 days after the close                                                                     
          of the applicable briefing period.  Technical rules                                                                   
          of evidence need not apply to investigations,                                                                         
          prehearing [PRE-HEARING] conferences, hearings, and                                                                   
          proceedings before the commission.  The commission                                                                    
          shall provide for representation by out-of-state                                                                      
          attorneys substantially in accordance with Rule 81,                                                                   
          Alaska Rules of Civil Procedure."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted there had been some testimony from Mr.                                                                  
Schroer [Don Schroer, lobbyist for GCI and former APUC chairman] at                                                             
the previous hearing [April 23] recommending an amendment to the                                                                
amendment to include mediation and arbitration.  Chairman Rokeberg                                                              
referred to line 8 of the written amendment, "investigations,                                                                   
prehearing [PRE-HEARING] conferences, hearings, and proceedings,",                                                              
noting Mr. Schroer had recommended adding "mediation and                                                                        
arbitration" after "hearings".  He asked Mr. Cotten if the                                                                      
commission currently conducts mediation or arbitration.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN answered in the affirmative.  He noted that in some                                                                  
"telecom" cases as a result of the "Telecom Act" [federal                                                                       
Telecommunications Act of 1996] there is a provision to do that                                                                 
under certain interconnection agreements between competitors and                                                                
the incumbent local exchange carriers.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted the added language should be "arbitration,                                                              
mediation"; therefore, it would be appropriate to include that.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0253                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN agreed he thinks it would be appropriate; he emphasized                                                              
he is speaking for himself - the commission has not considered                                                                  
these amendments.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted, then, he would move Amendment 6 and if he                                                              
hears objections for purposes of discussion, he will then move the                                                              
amendment to the amendment, after the word "hearing" on line 8                                                                  
[written amendment copy] to add "mediation, arbitration, and" in                                                                
conceptual form to ensure the grammar is correct.  The chairman                                                                 
asked if there is any objection.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE questioned if mediation and arbitration are                                                                
applicable to the rules of evidence, indicating he was referring to                                                             
the lower amendment language, "Technical rules of evidence need not                                                             
apply to investigations, prehearing [PRE-HEARING] conference,                                                                   
hearings, and proceedings before the commission.", appearing on                                                                 
lines 11 through 13 of the printed amendment copy.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI indicated this was true, at least when the                                                             
court rules.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0293                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG expanded the amendment to the amendment to                                                                    
include adding the new language after "hearings" on line 13.  He                                                                
asked if there was any objection to the amendment to the amendment.                                                             
There being none, the [conceptual] amendment to Amendment 6 was                                                                 
adopted.  Subsection (b) of Amendment 6 as conceptually amended                                                                 
read:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     (b) The commission shall adopt regulations governing                                                                       
     practice and procedure, consistent with due process of                                                                     
     law, including the conduct of formal and informal                                                                          
     investigations, prehearing [PRE-HEARING] conferences,                                                                      
     hearings, mediation, arbitration, and proceedings, and                                                                     
     the handling of procedural motions by a single                                                                             
     commissioner.  The commission, or an assigned                                                                              
     commissioner, shall enter an order on procedural motions                                                                   
     within 10 days after the close of the applicable briefing                                                                  
     period.  Technical rules of evidence need not apply to                                                                     
     investigations, prehearing [PRE-HEARING] conferences,                                                                      
     hearings, mediation, arbitration, and proceedings before                                                                   
     the commission.  The commission shall provide for                                                                          
     representation by out-of-state attorneys substantially in                                                                  
     accordance with Rule 81, Alaska Rules of Civil Procedure.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted the amendment language on lines 9 through                                                               
11 of the printed amendment, "The commission, or an assigned                                                                    
commissioner, shall enter an order on procedural motions within 10                                                              
days after the close of the applicable briefing period.".  He asked                                                             
for Mr. Cotten's input on this amendment.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN commented he is not sure of the definition for                                                                       
"procedural motions", but he does not think it is too much to ask                                                               
for a ruling within 10 days on simple procedural motions as he                                                                  
understands a procedural motion.  His initial reaction is that it                                                               
does not look like it would cause any problems.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked for Mr. Baldwin's assistance regarding the                                                              
whether "procedural motions" are defined, as far as a commissioner                                                              
or a hearing officer before the commission.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0367                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN answered that procedural motions are generally motions                                                              
for how to conduct the docket.  They are not dispositive motions                                                                
relating to the merits of the case.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG possibly questioned whether the civil procedure                                                               
rules the commission works under are defined in court rules.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN responded that they are generally defined in                                                                        
regulations of the commission; the commission generally sets its                                                                
own procedure.  Mr. Baldwin asked for confirmation from Mr. Cotten                                                              
that that was correct.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN indicated he and Mr. Lohr had just been discussing that.                                                             
Mr. Cotten said he certainly does not disagree with Mr. Baldwin:                                                                
A non-dispositive motion would be considered procedural.  Mr.                                                                   
Cotten said he just had not been sure if there is an actual                                                                     
definition for procedural motion, but he thinks most people operate                                                             
with the assumption that it is a time extension or some other minor                                                             
motion practice.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Cotten if there are any practical                                                                   
problems with Amendment 6.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN answered not that he has noticed "right off the bat                                                                  
here."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there were any questions or comments                                                                 
from the committee members.  The chairman asked if there were any                                                               
objections to Amendment 6 [as amended].  There being none,                                                                      
Amendment 6 was adopted [as amended].                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0426                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG made a motion to adopt Amendment 7.  Amendment 7,                                                             
labeled 1-LS0764\H.7, Cramer, 4/23/99:                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 4, following ";":                                                                                             
          Insert "permitting arbitrators to conduct formal                                                                      
     hearings before the Alaska Public Utilities Commission;"                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, following line 19:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
          "* Sec. 7.  AS 42.05.171 is amended to read:                                                                          
               Sec. 42.05.171.  Formal hearings.  A formal                                                                      
          hearing that the commission has power to hold may                                                                     
          be held by or before three or more commissioners, a                                                                   
          hearing officer, or an administrative law judge                                                                       
          designated for the purpose by the commission.  In                                                                     
          appropriate cases, a formal hearing may be held                                                                       
          before an arbitrator designated for the purpose by                                                                    
          the commission.  The testimony and evidence in a                                                                      
          formal hearing may be taken by the commissioners,                                                                     
          by the hearing officer, [OR] by the administrative                                                                    
          law judge, or by the arbitrator to whom the hearing                                                                   
          has been assigned.  A commissioner who has not                                                                        
          heard or read the testimony, including the                                                                            
          argument, may not participate in making a decision                                                                    
          of the commission.  In determining the place of a                                                                     
          hearing, the commission shall give preference to                                                                      
          holding the hearing at a place most convenient for                                                                    
          those interested in the subject of the hearing."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
AN UNIDENTIFIED COMMITTEE MEMBER objected.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented he didn't know if he liked arbitration.                                                             
The chairman asked Mr. Cotten's opinion of Amendment 7 regarding                                                                
arbitration, indicating Mr. Cotten had testified the commission is                                                              
required to use arbitration under the Telecommunications Act of                                                                 
1996.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN responded that the commission has a couple of choices                                                                
there. Mr. Cotten noted the commission can act as the                                                                           
arbiter/arbitrator.  Additionally, he described that in one case in                                                             
an Anchorage where GCI and ATU [Anchorage Telephone Utility]                                                                    
entered into an inter-connection agreement, those two entities                                                                  
agreed upon an arbiter and agreed to pay for that person "to hammer                                                             
out a lot of minor disputes."  However, Mr. Cotten noted that is                                                                
quite different than what this proposes as a formal hearing.  The                                                               
commission has not had any experience with a formal hearing in                                                                  
front of an arbiter although it does employ administrative law                                                                  
judges and, occasionally, hearing officers.  He noted the                                                                       
commission is at least able to now use hearing officers.                                                                        
Therefore, this would be something new and he thinks the limited                                                                
experience the commission has had so far has been successful; this                                                              
would expand to it formal hearings and he is uncertain about that.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG requested Mr. Stoops' comments and analysis of                                                                
the intention.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0491                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS, representing GCI, stated he thinks the language is                                                                  
permissive, as in GCI's earlier proposed amendment.  Noting the                                                                 
language beginning with "In appropriate cases,", Mr. Stoops                                                                     
indicated GCI's assumption is that this language adds a new method                                                              
by which the commission might address certain cases but it is up to                                                             
the commission to choose, not the parties themselves.  Therefore,                                                               
Mr. Stoops guesses the question should be whether it is                                                                         
objectionable to have this potential method available to the                                                                    
commission for future use.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG expressed that he personally does not care for                                                                
arbitration, adding that the provision here does not statutorily                                                                
indicate whether it would be binding arbitration or not.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE commented it would not be binding.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated, then, he understands it would not be                                                               
binding because of that.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS thought it would be up to the commission to make that                                                                
determination.  In the case cited by Mr. Cotten, it wasn't a formal                                                             
hearing but the procedure for resolving disputes between GCI and                                                                
ATU on local competition worked quite well.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if that was what GCI had in mind when this                                                              
amendment was requested.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS answered in the affirmative, adding, "Although the way                                                               
that this is drafted ... Chairman Cotten is correct that -- I mean                                                              
they may not have technically called that a formal hearing, I think                                                             
... that was certainly one of the cases that we viewed favorably                                                                
that ought to be expanded, and perhaps Chairman Cotten would have                                                               
a different term of art."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the language is being inserted into an                                                              
existing heading, with regards to drafting, and perhaps that has                                                                
something to do with it.  The chairman questioned if GCI's                                                                      
intention was more informal arbitration, such as it had experienced                                                             
[with ATU].                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS replied that GCI would accept either advisory or binding                                                             
arbitration as alternative, because sometimes it is the fastest way                                                             
to resolve certain issues.  He emphasized that this is simply an                                                                
option for the commission; it would not be required to do this.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented, "Right.  Well I would take informal as                                                             
- as something..."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS interjected that if the chairman has a different                                                                     
terminology which would be appropriate, that would be fine.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0590                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE suggested the possible removal of "formal",                                                                
and be silent on it.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted that "formal" is used in the heading and                                                                
also the other existing law, so he would be reluctant to change it                                                              
there.  The chairman questioned the definition of "formal" as                                                                   
opposed to "informal".                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE thought a formal hearing would be a hearing                                                                
where the decision is made, the final last step, as opposed to an                                                               
informal hearing, or secondary or tertiary hearing.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned whether Mr. Cotten or Mr. Lohr had any                                                             
further comment on that.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN noted he had been unsure that he had gotten the exact                                                                
question; he asked if they had been speaking of the formal hearing                                                              
here.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG agreed, noting it is in that section of the                                                                   
existing statute.  The chairman asked if this concept of                                                                        
arbitration needs to be removed and reinserted elsewhere.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN noted that, after hearing Mr. Stoops' comments, he (Mr.                                                              
Cotten) thinks it appears to offer the commission another                                                                       
opportunity to do something besides hold the hearing itself.  He                                                                
understands that the current law allows the commission to assign                                                                
that to a hearing officer who would then deliver a decision to the                                                              
commission for approval or disapproval.  This also applies to the                                                               
administrative law judge, and he indicated that apparently the                                                                  
situation would also be the same with an arbiter.  In that regard,                                                              
Mr. Cotten indicated he does not think it would probably cause any                                                              
problems.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated that both parties would have to submit to                                                              
the arbitration and apparently agree to the arbitrator.  Therefore,                                                             
it seems to him that this is a positive tool but both parties would                                                             
have to agree to it.  He asked Mr. Stoops if that would be the                                                                  
intention.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0678                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS agreed, noting the amendment is silent on whether it is                                                              
binding or advisor [arbitration].  Since it is optional anyway, it                                                              
would be up to the commission.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented, then, the rules of the game would be                                                               
established by the parties to it.  This merely authorizes the                                                                   
commission to allow for arbitration.  Chairman Rokeberg asked if                                                                
that is correct.  He questioned if everyone had an understanding of                                                             
what they were doing here.  He asked if there were any objections                                                               
to the amendment.  There being none, Amendment 7 was adopted.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. COTTEN indicated hearing officers, administrative law judges,                                                               
or possibly other public employees, act in an arbitration function                                                              
for the state.  Therefore, from the drafting of the amendment, he                                                               
is not sure he understands the difference between hiring an                                                                     
arbitrator and hiring a hearing officer, and having each return                                                                 
with a decision.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG responded it is his understanding an arbitrator                                                               
has to be a member of the American Arbitration Association, and,                                                                
therefore, may not be on the employment roles of the state.  This                                                               
would be a step toward privatization.  The chairman indicated this                                                              
may be a positive thing, as an alternative conflict resolution                                                                  
device that can expedite the commission's matters, because the                                                                  
commission does not have to take up the issue itself but it would                                                               
be addressed under the auspices of the commission.  Chairman                                                                    
Rokeberg asked Mr. Stoops if that is correct.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. STOOPS agreed.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated the committee has before it the last                                                                   
amendment of the evening, the corrected Amendment 8 by                                                                          
Representative Halcro.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0766                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO made a motion to adopt Amendment 8.                                                                       
Amendment 8, an unlabeled printed amendment [the printed amendment                                                              
was numbered lines 1-5, but written in continuous paragraph form]                                                               
read:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 8, following "(b) The" delete "governor                                                                       
     shall designate one member of the commission as chair.                                                                     
     The chair shall serve as chair for a term of four years,                                                                   
     but may be appointed for successive terms." and insert                                                                     
     "commission shall select one member of the commission to                                                                   
     serve as chair for a term of two years.  A commissioner                                                                    
     may be elected to successive terms as chair of the                                                                         
     commission."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE objected.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO spoke to the amendment.  He commented that                                                                
this amendment came from someone very close to the APUC who feels                                                               
that with all of the overhaul being done, this is one way to                                                                    
depoliticize the commission ["board"] a bit more; create a better                                                               
working environment where commission members would select their                                                                 
chairman rather than having the governor appoint.  Representative                                                               
Halcro said he feels, in listening to her [unidentified] suggestion                                                             
and then reviewing the bill, they go to great lengths in this                                                                   
legislation to provide the commissioners some increased powers.                                                                 
Representative Halcro indicated he thinks allowing the majority of                                                              
the commissioners to elect their chair follows this.  The chair                                                                 
would be appointed for a two-year period, with the commissioners                                                                
then voting to either retain the current chair for an additional                                                                
two years or electing a new one.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE spoke to his objection.  He thinks they should                                                             
just let the Governor do it.  It is something the governors have                                                                
been doing; Representative Brice noted it has not been a problem                                                                
brought to his attention by any of the commissioners.  He does not                                                              
know where the amendment is coming; he has not heard any                                                                        
controversy or complaint.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted there had been similar testimony in the                                                                 
special committee.  He asked if Mr. Wilcox recalled that.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0856                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILCOX said he had spoken with the chairman of the special                                                                  
committee [Representative Bill Hudson] on this particular matter.                                                               
It was Representative Hudson's opinion that the special committee                                                               
had reached no conclusion because the members really did not care                                                               
whether it was two years or four years.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned, however, about the election of the                                                                
[APUC] chair by the membership.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILCOX believed there had been some discussion on that                                                                      
particular point and an amendment proposed by Representative                                                                    
Rokeberg that was deemed to be somewhat unconstitutional.  Mr.                                                                  
Wilcox indicated there appeared to be some conflict with Article                                                                
III, Section 26, of the Alaska State Constitution.  He commented                                                                
this issue had just been discussed with Mr. Baldwin, indicating                                                                 
they would need more time to address it.  [Constitution of the                                                                  
State of Alaska, Article III, Section 26 reads:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     SECTION 26.  BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS.  When a board or                                                                      
     commission is at the head of a principal department or a                                                                   
     regulatory or quasi-judicial agency, its members shall be                                                                  
     appointed by the governor, subject to confirmation by a                                                                    
     majority of the members of the legislature in joint                                                                        
     session, and may be removed as provided by law.  They                                                                      
     shall be citizens of the United States.  The board or                                                                      
     commission may appoint a principal executive officer when                                                                  
     authorized by law, but the appointment shall be subject                                                                    
     to the approval of the governor.]                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG invited Mr. Baldwin forward again.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN commented he is pained because he does not know the                                                                 
answer to this.  He referred to the constitutional language, "The                                                               
board or commission may appoint a principal executive officer when                                                              
authorized by law, but the appointment shall be subject to the                                                                  
approval of the governor."  Mr. Baldwin said he thinks there is                                                                 
some concern about whether the reference to "principal executive                                                                
officer" would cover a chairmanship.  He reiterated he does not                                                                 
know the answer.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0926                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted, then, they were skating on thin                                                                        
constitutional ice, without further analysis.  He asked if that                                                                 
would be a fair assessment.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BALDWIN indicated he agreed and needed further time.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILCOX requested that staff be given an opportunity to get a                                                                
legal opinion from legislative counsel.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO said he would appreciate and accept that                                                                  
recommendation.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0950                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated the amendment would be held in abeyance                                                             
until a legal opinion could be received.  He questioned who would                                                               
take responsibility for the legal opinion.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILCOX offered to do so, noting this question has arisen                                                                    
previously and he is probably the most familiar with it.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated a House Labor and Commerce Standing                                                                 
Committee substitute would be brought forward at the next meeting                                                               
on April 28. [HB 183 WAS HELD]                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0989                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG adjourned the House Labor and Commerce Standing                                                               
Committee meeting at 6:20 p.m.                                                                                                  

Document Name Date/Time Subjects