05/10/2004 11:25 AM House JUD
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE
May 10, 2004
11:25 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Lesil McGuire, Chair
Representative Tom Anderson, Vice Chair
Representative Jim Holm
Representative Dan Ogg
Representative Ralph Samuels
Representative Les Gara
Representative Max Gruenberg
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Representative Paul Seaton
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 269(CRA)
"An Act relating to access to library records, including access
to the library records of a child by a parent or guardian."
- MOVED HCS CSSB 269(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 306(FIN) am
"An Act relating to the practice of naturopathic medicine; and
providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 97(JUD) am(ct rule fld)(efd fld)
"An Act relating to public interest litigants and to attorney
fees and costs and the posting of bonds or other security."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 269
SHORT TITLE: PARENT ACCESS TO CHILD'S LIBRARY RECORDS
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) GREEN
01/16/04 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/16/04 (S) CRA, HES
02/11/04 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP 203
02/11/04 (S) Heard & Held
02/11/04 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
02/18/04 (S) CRA AT 1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP 203
02/18/04 (S) Moved CSSB 269(CRA) Out of Committee
02/18/04 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
02/19/04 (S) CRA RPT CS 2DP 1DNP 2AM NEW TITLE
02/19/04 (S) DP: STEDMAN, WAGONER; DNP: ELTON
02/19/04 (S) AMEND: LINCOLN, STEVENS G
02/20/04 (S) HES AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
02/20/04 (S) -- Meeting Canceled --
02/23/04 (S) HES AT 2:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
02/23/04 (S) Moved CSSB 269(CRA) Out of Committee
02/23/04 (S) MINUTE(HES)
02/25/04 (S) HES RPT CS(CRA) 2DP 1NR
02/25/04 (S) DP: GREEN, WILKEN; NR: GUESS
03/03/04 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
03/03/04 (S) VERSION: CSSB 269(CRA)
03/04/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/04/04 (H) HES, JUD
03/30/04 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
03/30/04 (H) Moved Out of Committee
03/30/04 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/31/04 (H) HES RPT 4DP 1DNP 1NR
03/31/04 (H) DP: COGHILL, WOLF, GATTO, WILSON;
03/31/04 (H) DNP: CISSNA; NR: SEATON
04/16/04 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
04/16/04 (H) <Bill Hearing Postponed to 04/19/04>
04/19/04 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
04/19/04 (H) -- Meeting Canceled --
04/28/04 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
04/28/04 (H) -- Meeting Canceled --
05/05/04 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
05/05/04 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
05/06/04 (H) JUD AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 120
05/06/04 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
05/07/04 (H) JUD AT 6:15 PM CAPITOL 120
05/07/04 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
05/08/04 (H) JUD AT 11:00 AM CAPITOL 120
05/08/04 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
05/09/04 (H) JUD AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 120
05/09/04 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
05/10/04 (H) JUD AT 11:00 AM CAPITOL 120
WITNESS REGISTER
SENATOR LYDA GREEN
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 269.
ART WEEKS, Director
Anchorage Municipal Libraries
Municipality of Anchorage (MOA)
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of SB 269, provided
comments and responded to questions.
MARY RASMUSSEN, Member
Library Advisory Board
Anchorage Municipal Libraries
Municipality of Anchorage (MOA)
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided comments during discussion of SB
269.
CHRISTINE O'CONNOR, Librarian
Dillingham Public Library
City of Dillingham
Dillingham, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of SB 269, provided
comments and responded to a question.
ANDREE McLEOD
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 269 and urged
the committee to pass it.
BARBARA BERG, Director
Juneau Public Libraries
City and Borough of Juneau;
Member
Alaska Library Association (AkLA)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of SB 269, provided
comments, responded to questions, and made reference to a
proposed change.
JACQUELINE TUPOU, Staff
to Senator Lyda Green
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided comments during discussion of a
proposed change encompassed in the House committee substitute
(HCS) for SB 269, Version S.
CLARK GRUENING, Lobbyist
for the Alaska Library Association (AkLA)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided comments and responded to
questions regarding SB 269 and the proposed House committee
substitute (HCS), Version S.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 04-84, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR LESIL McGUIRE called the House Judiciary Standing
Committee meeting, which had been recessed on 5/9/04, back to
order at 11:25 a.m. Representatives McGuire, Holm, Samuels,
Gara, and Gruenberg were present at the call back to order.
Representatives Anderson and Ogg arrived as the meeting was in
progress.
SB 269 - PARENT ACCESS TO CHILD'S LIBRARY RECORDS
Number 0112
CHAIR McGUIRE announced that the committee would consider CS FOR
SENATE BILL NO. 269(CRA), "An Act relating to access to library
records, including access to the library records of a child by a
parent or guardian." [In members' packets was a proposed House
committee substitute (HCS) for SB 269, Version 23-LS1457\S,
Mischel, 5/10/04; before the committee was CSSB 269(CRA).]
Number 0163
SENATOR LYDA GREEN, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor, relayed
that over the interim last year, she'd [been approached by] some
parents in her district who'd been contacted by the library
regarding some books that their children had requested or
checked out. One mother, upon calling the library back, was
informed by the library that it would not release the names of
the books in question to her, the parent, because library
records are confidential. In the other case, the library left a
message that some books were overdue, and when the mother
contacted the library to find out which books were overdue, she
was told that that information was confidential and could not be
released to her. Senator Green remarked that one child was 7
years old and the other was 8 years old.
SENATOR GREEN remarked that even though parents are responsible
for all aspects of their children's lives, current law provides
that library records are confidential. She noted, however, that
current law also provides that all school-related records of
children, including library records, be disclosed to parents,
and offered her belief that the same standard should apply to
public libraries. She opined that parents do have the right to
get the information in their children's library records, whether
school library records or public library records, and that
libraries should not be allowed to withhold that information
from parents.
SENATOR GREEN said that SB 269 will change current law such that
all library records of children could be released to parents.
She noted that under the bill, the library records of an
emancipated minor would not be released - since an emancipated
minor would be treated as an adult - nor would university
library records of children enrolled in a university be
released. She indicated that federal law - the Family
Educational Rights Privacy Act ("FERPA") - says all school
records should be accessible to parents, and reiterated her
belief that parents should have access to their children's
library records, even if they are not school library records,
since parents are ultimately responsible for any action their
children take while in the library or for any damage their
children do to library materials.
Number 0587
SENATOR GREEN noted that some libraries have a form to that
effect which parents must fill out before their children are
issued a library card. She offered her belief that
notwithstanding the fact that parents are ultimately responsible
for their children's actions, [some] libraries prohibit parents
from picking up a library book on behalf of their children. She
relayed that some have suggested that children should give their
parents [written] permission to pick up their library books;
however, children just aren't inclined to give parents that kind
of permission, she opined. With regard to the argument [that SB
269] will violate children's right to privacy, she offered her
belief that those rights don't extend to children.
SENATOR GREEN posited that passage of SB 269 will not increase
librarians' workload, and relayed that one state librarian
offered testimony in a prior committee that he had released
information regarding when a child's library book was due or
regarding how much money was owed. This illustrates that the
current law is not being applied evenly across the state, she
suggested; however, regardless of any inconsistency in how state
law is applied, the issue is really one of whether, by law,
parents have the right to the information contained in their
children's library records.
SENATOR GREEN, in response to a comment, offered her
understanding that Section 1 of the bill addresses what
information in a person's library record must be kept
confidential, and provides an exemption for the records of
children under 18 years of age.
CHAIR McGUIRE asked why proposed subsection (a) deletes the
words, "This section applies to libraries operated by the state,
a municipality, or a public school, including the University of
Alaska.".
SENATOR GREEN, in response, indicated that proposed subsection
(b) would delete the words, "public elementary or secondary
schools" as they pertain to libraries, and that proposed
subsection (c) would insert the words, "This section applies to
libraries operated by the state, a municipality, or a public
school, including the University of Alaska, and by a public
library nonprofit corporation".
Number 0799
CHAIR McGUIRE surmised that this change adds an element of
segregation to what types of libraries the restriction and
exemption apply to.
SENATOR GREEN noted that proposed subsection (b) would change
current law such that it would say, "Records of a library
identifying a child under 18 yeas of age shall be made available
on request to a parent or guardian of that child". In response
to comments, she offered her belief that continuing federal
education funding is dependant on the words, "child under 18
yeas of age" being part of statute.
CHAIR McGUIRE asked whether other states have changed their
statutory language to say, "child under 18 yeas of age" in order
to comply with FERPA.
SENATOR GREEN said she did not know. She mentioned that
included in members' packets is a handout detailing what other
states are doing with regard to the privacy of children's
library records: 13 states allow parental access to their
children's library records - 5 states specifically say "school"
library, 8 states specifically say "public" library; 14 states
specifically provide for students' library records to be
private; and 23 states have no laws specifically addressing
children, but provide for public library records to be
confidential. She also offered her understanding that in four
of the latter type of states, there have been lawsuits wherein
the courts have found for the parents regarding their right to
their children's library records.
CHAIR McGUIRE asked Senator Green whether she has given
consideration to how the bill will interact with Alaska's
specific constitutional right to privacy.
SENATOR GREEN reiterated her belief that that constitutional
right to privacy does not extend to minors, and relayed that
there was discussion of this issue in the House Health,
Education and Social Services Standing Committee. She said that
she is annoyed that a parent is currently unable to find out
when a child's library book is due and is unable to pick up the
child's library books. She relayed that she has been told that
if she brings in her grandchildren's library cards, for example,
that she can access the information; she indicated that this is
an unacceptable solution.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG mentioned that according to a legal
opinion he'd received from Legislative Legal and Research
Services, the proposed law has a reasonable chance of being
upheld, but if the reference to the age of the child were
lowered, it would have a better chance.
Number 1267
ART WEEKS, Director, Anchorage Municipal Libraries, Municipality
of Anchorage (MOA), surmised that Senator Green is attempting to
address the issue of the parent's financial responsibility
regarding overdue or damaged library materials. He pointed out,
however, that at Anchorage Municipal Libraries, that information
is disclosed to parents, though not information regarding the
child's reading record. He also pointed out that the bill
wouldn't address the situation she used as an example, that of
being a grandparent and wanting to find out information about
her grandchildren's library records, because the bill only
applies to parents and guardians, not grandparents. He offered
the belief that the proposed legislation will compromise the
safety of children. He elaborated:
At the very young age, toddler through elementary
[school] years, we feel the parent should be at the
library with the child anyway for reasons of safety as
well as guiding their reading interests. We're very
disturbed about the idea that adolescents would have
their reader records disclosed to parents, especially
for adolescents that may be in unsafe situations -
[such as living with] abusive parents or caretakers,
[or being exposed to] alcoholism - maybe they're
looking into a future vocation that's meeting parental
disapproval, or even [have] questions about their own
sexuality. We are very concerned about the safety of
teens, and we feel that this might be something that
would compromise that, especially in a state where
teen suicide is so great. ...
The other point I wanted to make was that unlike
schools, we do not keep ... records of who custodial
parents are, so we wouldn't know who we were divulging
information to. ... We don't know whether the parent
is custodial [or] has a restraining order, the
variation in last names would be confusing, and [we]
... just don't want to be able to disclose a reader
record that not only lists books that are being read
but [also contains the] address of the child. So for
that reason we feel that the privacy of children
should be maintained as stated in the [Alaska State]
Constitution, that there's not really a compelling
reason to abridge that guarantee that is given in the
Alaska [State] Constitution.
MR. WEEKS, in conclusion, suggested that the bill be amended to
just address that particular situation where financial
responsibility kicks in.
Number 1428
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked for a sense of how many minors use the
Anchorage Municipal Libraries without their parents [in
attendance].
MR. WEEKS remarked that that would be difficult to determine.
He added:
There's a certain age where you start navigating the
world on your own; ... certainly in the teen years,
starting around 12-13, you start to ... see children
at the library without being attended by an adult.
Under that age, [there are] very few. At the
Anchorage Municipal Libraries, we certainly discourage
unattended children. You do have some drop-offs after
school, which is something we try to discourage;
libraries are not necessarily a safe place because we
are an institution that allows anybody through the
door and our ability to supervise everybody in the
library is not that good. So we do encourage parents
with younger children to accompany them to the
library. ...
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG, on the issue of the bill's
constitutionality, asked whether the courts would use a
balancing test or a "strict scrutiny" analysis.
MR. WEEKS said he didn't know.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG characterized his query as a core
question.
Number 1563
MARY RASMUSSEN, Member, Library Advisory Board, Anchorage
Municipal Libraries, Municipality of Anchorage (MOA), relayed
that the Library Advisory Board recommended the following to the
Anchorage Assembly:
By unanimous vote, the Library Advisory Board
recommended that the assembly oppose Senate Bill 269.
As the bill is written, it is both harmful to children
and is vague and overly broad in scope. The Library
Advisory Board cites the following reasons for its
conclusions.
One, it will be unduly burdensome on libraries to
determine who is a parent who might have a right of
access to a child's records. Librarians, unlike
educators, have no established relationships with
parents, and therefore have no records to know the
custodianship. Library borrowing by minor children in
Anchorage is offered by both Anchorage Municipal
Libraries and the (indisc.) University of Alaska.
Unlike public schools, neither institution (indisc.)
information as to the custodial arrangement for minor
children or records of parents.
Two, the amendment potentially compromises the safety
of children by requiring disclosure of personal
information on a library record. The disclosure of
the library record, including home address, may be at
variance with current state law on violence. The
disclosure could also be in contravention of court
restraining orders for noncustodial parents. There is
furthermore a potential for a disclosure to strangers
posing as parents. That's exposing children to
predators.
Three, children, especially in the years of
adolescence, should be able to investigate sensitive
information in a safe and secure environment that
maximizes the use of accurate and scholarly data and
information. Librarians - like other professionals
such as counselors, psychiatrists, police - respect a
child's right to privacy and do not release certain
information to parents under similar confidentiality
laws.
Four, the university library staff, which do not have
access to records on student family or age status, may
be held liable if library records were illegally
disclosed. Five, the legislation places an undue
financial burden on many of Alaska's libraries;
disclosure of reading material for some libraries
would require either significant staff time for a hand
audit of circulation records, or require procurement
of a costly automated system - a burdensome expense
especially for smaller libraries in Bush communities.
Six, the Library Advisory Board therefore regards the
legislation as an unfunded mandate and financially
(indisc.) the libraries of Alaska.
Number 1694
MS. RASMUSSEN said that on a personal level, she'd like to make
two points:
One is that I think our state has a wonderful privacy
clause in its constitution, and I really would hate to
see the legislature taking away privacy rights of
citizens - including children. And the second point
is that I am a parent and I think parental rights are
really important, but I see this as [a] chance where
parents can talk to their children, and I don't think
the library and the librarians should be put ... in
the middle.
And that's why I think it's really important, that
this is an issue of: if your child is so young that
they can't handle a library card, then maybe they
should be doing it on their parent's card; but as they
get older, this is a perfect chance, as a parent, to
let them develop responsibility on their own and to
teach them these things - so I think it's a real
positive situation for them; and then, as an
adolescent, I reiterate what Mr. Weeks said, that I
think having access to accurate information is really
important.
And if a parent can't talk to their child about this,
then going in behind their back and getting their
library record, I think, is a real disservice to that
individual. Thank you for letting me testify.
Number 1748
CHRISTINE O'CONNOR, Librarian, Dillingham Public Library, City
of Dillingham, noted that she is the mother of an 11-year-old
son and a 13-year-old daughter. She said she doesn't have any
problem with providing the parents of small children with their
children's library records, but does have a couple of concerns
with doing the same for adolescent children. She elaborated:
A lot of the teens that I see here do not come from
caring homes; their parents are indifferent or even
harmful to these young adults that use my library, and
these are teens I'm worried will be harmed by the bill
[as it's] currently written. Teens that lose the
privacy of their library use will [also be] losing the
security of knowing they can come to the library for
safe access to information. And this is information
that can be life changing for them.
There are two topics that especially concern me when
we talk about taking privacy away from teens. The
first is health. On several occasions teenage girls
have brought me stacks of books on pregnancy, [and] I
check them out. Most of the time I know the teen and
I also know the parents, and each time this has
happened ... I realized that this young girl doesn't
have help from her parents to deal with a pregnancy,
but at least she's looking for information, and I want
that to be available to her. There are other sources
of health information for teens here in Dillingham,
but we're very small; a teen needing health
information has to be willing to be exposed publicly.
[In] visiting the hospital or the public health
center, those records are private, but Dillingham is
too small to allow a visit to be unnoticed. The
library is the only place to get private information
like that.
Number 1867
The second topic I have concerns about is religion.
About two years ago, a teenage girl asked me to
interlibrary loan her some books about a certain
religion; she specifically asked me not to tell anyone
because she said she was in trouble for reading about
this topic. I was able to assure her that her library
records were private and I would not tell anyone. I'm
confident that if I'd told her that her parents have a
right to see her borrowing record, she would not have
... borrowed these books. And I think that would just
be a shame; I would hate to tell a teen in that
position that, "Oh, if your parents ask, I have to
say." And this girl was probably 16 at the time.
I'm hoping that this bill can be amended to protect
teens. I ask that you please remember these young
adults that need information they can't get at home,
and that you'll just maintain the sanctuary that
public libraries are providing for these kids. ...
Thank you ... for allowing me to testify.
MS. O'CONNOR, in response to a question regarding the girls
seeking information about pregnancy, said that some of the books
checked out were Dr. Sears's The Baby Book, What to Expect When
You're Expecting - essentially prenatal-care books. She said
she tries to respect the girls' privacy as much as possible and
doesn't treat them any differently than if they were checking
out a paperback.
Number 1977
ANDREE McLEOD said she is a parent of a 21-year old, and as far
as she is concerned, he still doesn't have a right to privacy.
She said she is in total favor of SB 269 and hopes it becomes
law. She thanked the sponsor for taking the time to address
this issue, which she characterized as acrimonious public policy
that is adversarial to parents and guardians of children under
the age of 18. She relayed that she is appalled at the
situations that engendered the bill, and asked: "What kind of
system do we have where public employees of public libraries,
paid for with public funds, would be permitted to withhold
information from parents about their minor children? Why are
parents not given information that is rightfully theirs about
their children? She suggested that this is evidence that a much
deeper problem exists wherein librarians are allowed to do as
they will without censure.
MS. McLEOD remarked that the Legislature is constantly passing
bills making parents more responsible for their children's
behaviors; public policy providing incentives for better
parenting is becoming more exact and more detailed. In turn,
parents have moral obligations to raise their children well.
Alongside those obligations are parental rights, including, she
opined, having any and all information pertaining to their
children in order to mitigate their children's behavior should
it be less than good. She contended that a child's public
library record is just such information, even if it does show
that a child is checking out books regarding pregnancy.
MS. McLEOD expressed doubt about the veracity of the examples
given by those opposed to the bill, and questioned how often
such situations really occur. Parents are legally and
completely responsible for their children until they reach the
age of 18. At the very least, parents do not need publicly
funded librarians encroaching on their inherent and absolute
parental rights. She asked that [SB 269] be passed from
committee, offering her belief that it will protect parental
rights, which take in a set of obligations, responsibilities,
and liabilities. When librarians violate those rights by not
releasing children's public library records to parents, they
should be reproached and held accountable for dangerously
shattering the increasingly fragile trust between families and
publicly funded employees and institutions, she concluded.
Number 2082
BARBARA BERG, Director, Juneau Public Libraries, City and
Borough of Juneau; Member, Alaska Library Association (AkLA),
relayed that she would be speaking as a member of the AkLA, as a
concerned professional, and as the mother of two grown sons.
She said:
I would echo what both Art Weeks and Christine
O'Connor have said about this bill. It takes a
certain amount of courage for a young teen to approach
a librarian on any controversial topic even if it
doesn't have personal implications for them. Part of
what we are in the business of doing is encouraging a
spirit of free inquiry in support of [a] democratic
society, in the public library.
So often we lose touch with teens; we do a real good
job with young kids and we do a good job with adult
readers, but we lose touch with teens in their teen
years. And a child might be asking for information
that's controversial but ... doesn't necessarily have
personal implications. Say they were researching AIDS
[acquired immunodeficiency syndrome] or something, but
if they thought that having the books out would imply
scrutiny by their parents that they were doing
something wrong, they might not take that step and
approach that inquiry. ...
I want to talk about some of the procedural ways that
we deal with this at the Juneau Public [Libraries].
We don't release the registration information or what
a person has checked out without the consent of that
individual. The consent can be given if the child
writes a note that says ... the parent "may pick up
these books for me," or if the parent comes in and
knows what those titles are, ... [or] are in
possession of the child's library card - [then] they
can pick that material up. Many parents choose to
retain their children's library cards, and thereby
they have control and they know what their children's
library record is at anytime; that's perfectly
acceptable to us. ...
MS. BERG continued:
And we have always considered that when the materials
go overdue, or are lost, that the parent then has the
right to know that information. For one thing, a
notice has gone home, so they already have seen the
notice come in the mail as the guardian who signs
[the] child's library card; they already receive the
notice when the material goes lost or missing it's
been so long overdue. So the right of privacy is gone
the minute the overdue collection notice goes out.
And the same applies for ... the spouse: [he/she] can
pick up a book for a spouse if they know what the item
is - if they come and say [his/her spouse] "has asked
me to pick up this item."
Number 2212
But what we don't do is read out a long list of what
people have on hold over the phone. For one thing,
the phone contact is very, very problematic, to know
if the person you're talking to at the other end of
the line is actually a person who has any right to the
information at all. And ... I remain very concerned
that the staff at the front desk, who may be a trained
librarian or may be a clerk who is there part-time ...
a few days a week, is going to be put in the decision-
making position of having to decide if the person on
the other side of the desk actually has a right to
that information or not. ...
And I also want to say - as I mentioned - I'm the
mother of two grown sons, and I always tried to be
involved in their learning and their reading life, and
had open discussions with them, and didn't try to
restrict what they read, and they shared with me what
they were doing. In fact, at [ages] 30 and 26 they
still share with me most of what they're doing and
their major life decisions. And I think that's a tack
that caring parents should take, is work with them and
keep the channels of communication open, and they will
continue to communicate with you their entire lives.
...
REPRESENTATIVE HOLM surmised, then, that Ms. Berg's testimony is
that the child's right of privacy eclipses the right of parents,
and paraphrased some of Ms. Berg's comments regarding notice of
overdue/lost materials.
MS. BERG reiterated that by the time the money is owed, the
notice has already been sent to the person who signed as the
child's guardian, the person who has agreed to take financial
responsibility for the materials.
REPRESENTATIVE HOLM offered the analogy that a runaway child has
the right to run away, that the parent has the right to be
responsible for that child, but the state doesn't have the right
to inform the parent where the child is. He said he finds it
curious that [an entity] has the right to withhold from the
parent information critical to parenting.
TAPE 04-84, SIDE B
Number 2374
MS. BERG suggested that Representative Holm's analogy didn't fit
with the issue at hand.
CHAIR McGUIRE acknowledged that the bill strikes many cords with
people. Although the state expects parents to be responsible
for their children's wellbeing, healthcare, and behavior,
parents don't automatically get to know what their children are
reading; on the other hand, when it comes to teenagers who are
in bad family situations, or who are suicidal or depressed, or
who have questions regarding religion, vocation, or sexuality, a
delicate balance is called for. Her concern, however, is that
with regard to public libraries, there is no way to know that
the person requesting a child's information is really the
custodial parent. How, from a practical standpoint, can such a
relationship be ascertained? What if the person seeking the
information is really someone who wanted to harm the child? For
example, what if it were an abusive [parent or] stepparent, or
what if it were a sexual predator? The question that remains
with regard to the bill is whether there is some way to ensure
that the financially responsible parties - the parents and
guardians - are given information before situations get to the
point of a family owing money for lost or overdue material.
MS. BERG said she shares Chair McGuire's concerns regarding the
difficulty of identifying custodial parents and guardians, but
doesn't have any suggestions for a solution. She brought up the
point that family situations change, so someone who originally
registers a child for a library card may in the future have a
restraining order placed against him/her. If something terrible
were to happen to a child as a result of the library disclosing
information, it could put the library in a questionable
situation with regard to legal liability. With regard to the
privacy/financial issue, she remarked, "we have always assumed
that if a child really wanted to keep their information private,
they would take care to not lose the materials, and get them
back to the library; [also], parents who are concerned about
children [having] ... too many 'overdues,' and we have seen
this, ... retain control of the card - that's ... an option they
have."
CHAIR McGUIRE asked Ms. Berg whether she has ever seen a child
check out material pertaining to suicide.
MS. BERG relayed that she doesn't work at the circulation desk a
lot and so doesn't know if such is occurring.
Number 2111
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS remarked that if one's 16-year-old
daughter is seeking information on sex or contraception, one
would probably want her to have that information and not be
uncomfortable, because of privacy issues, with going to the
library to get it. On the flip side, if one's teenager is
seeking information on how to make a bomb or acquire automatic
weapons, one would probably want to know about it. He said he
is inclined to err on the side of the teenagers seeking
information about sex, AIDS, and contraception, and thus allow
the information to remain private.
REPRESENTATIVE HOLM remarked that the Internet is another
resource for those seeking information about certain topics.
MS. BERG said that is good point. She added:
When children ... or young adults come to the library,
we hope we have a selection of materials [wherein]
they are getting accurate information. If they go to
the Internet or ask their friends, they may or may not
be getting reliable information. And we certainly
would rather have them continue to get that
information from a reliable source rather than
something questionable. And if they come to the
library, they can ask for assistance and we can help
them find accurate information on the Internet, too,
or on the public library's databases that we subscribe
to that have that kind of information (indisc.).
REPRESENTATIVE GARA remarked that Internet searches via a home
computer wouldn't be an option for a teenager in an abusive
family situation. He acknowledged, though, that there are some
compelling reasons for giving parents access to their children's
library records. For example, if a child is seeking information
about suicide, that could be something that a parent should know
about. He predicted that regardless of what the legislature
does, there will be unintended consequences.
MS. BERG remarked that a young adult checking out a book on
suicide may not be suicidal, is instead perhaps just doing a
research paper on the issue. Librarians don't know that,
though, and they don't ask patrons why they are seeking
information. "We provide them with information, we try [to]
give them the most accurate information that meets the scope of
their inquiry, and so if we were to overreact, then, and
instantly call the parent and say, ... 'Your child is suicidal,'
because they checked out a book on suicide, that may or may not
be the case," she pointed out. She said she tends to think that
the problems the bill engenders will be fewer if the age
referenced in the bill is lowered - for example, to the age of
14 as is referenced in a proposed amendment - since those who
retain their children's library cards are most often the parents
of younger children. She also pointed out that when children
are unable to check materials out of the library, they simply
take those materials.
Number 1867
CHAIR McGUIRE asked Senator Green what mechanism the library
should use to ensure that a person is really the child's
custodial parent or guardian.
SENATOR GREEN opined that the mechanisms currently used by the
Juneau Public Libraries, such as allowing a person to pick up a
book held for child if the person knows the name of the book,
are in violation of state statute. She suggested that different
library systems across the state use different methods to
determine exceptions for nondisclosure rules. She also opined
that the likelihood of a noncustodial parent using the library
to gain access to a child's information is remote. She also
suggested that if a child is concerned about privacy, he/she can
still access material at the library and just not check it out.
She expressed disapproval of the notion that a librarian has
access to information about a child and yet can withhold that
same information from a parent.
SENATOR GREEN went on to note that the aforementioned legal
opinion acknowledges that Article I, Section 22, of the Alaska
State Constitution directs the legislature to implement the
state right of privacy and that the legislature has done so with
respect to library borrower's information by enacting AS
40.25.140. Therefore, she opined, passage of SB 269 would not
overstep or threaten the constitutional right of privacy. She
offered her understanding that the children responsible for the
tragedy at Columbine High School had accessed information at the
library.
REPRESENTATIVE GARA offered an example of a child living in an
abusive home seeking information about parental or spousal
abuse. He asked Senator Green whether she is concerned that the
abusive parent will find out that the child is seeking such
information at the library. He also questioned how effective
the bill will be given that a child can simply read the material
in the library instead of checking it out and thereby having it
included in his/her record.
Number 1592
SENATOR GREEN replied:
My issue has never been to intrude upon the reading
material, to set the agenda, or to set aside a
provision for determining what someone else may be
allowed to read, should read, or can read. That is
nothing to do with my ... issue here. Mine is simply
the fact that some very frustrated parents called me
and said, "Can you believe, I have a 7- and a 8-year-
old [and] I can't find out the names of the books that
are overdue," ... [and] "I can't go pick up my child's
books unless he's with me." ...
That speaks to the issue [that] every library is doing
this inconsistently. ... Juneau [Public Libraries] has
a system in place, they also have ... [forms] that are
filled out by the parents ..., and they do a very good
job, but somehow, in the process, they have determined
"this" [person] is the parent that can sign the form
for this child. If they can do that, they can
determine who is rightfully eligible for the
information. ...
I don't see this as a complicated issue. It just says
the current system is in place, and if that parent
calls and said, "When are those books due?" ... but --
and I have to tell you, when my children were growing
up, I was so proud they were reading, it never entered
my mind to be concerned about the text .... And I
would never go there, and I don't want that to be part
of the emphasis on it. This is the fact that parents
deserve the right to have the information about their
children's library records much more than a library
does.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG offered his observation that there are
four issues or possible criteria to address: the age of the
child; the subject matter; which standards for which libraries;
and who decides. He mentioned that he has a concern with the
federal government telling Alaskan communities what to do
regarding these issues. In that same vein, however, should the
state be doing the same thing, he questioned, or should local
governments be allowed to develop their own standards. With the
latter, local parents could take a role in developing local
standards regarding issues of concern to them. He surmised that
the bill proceeds from the assumption that the standards should
by determined by the age of the child, by which library the
material is being checked out of, and by the state legislature
making decisions for the entire state.
Number 1287
REPRESENTATIVE GARA, noting that he has to leave shortly, opined
that Senator Green has the right to have her bill debated on the
House floor and so he isn't against moving the bill from
committee regardless of whether the current version is altered.
CHAIR McGUIRE mentioned that the proposed HCS, Version S,
incorporates the aforementioned proposed amendment, which reads
[original punctuation provided]:
Delete subsection (b) and replace with a new
subsection (b) to read:
(b)(1) Records of a public elementary or
secondary school library identifying a child under 18
years of age shall be made available on request to a
parent or guardian of that child.
(2) Records of a library operated by the
state, a municipality, the University of Alaska or by
a public library nonprofit corporation identifying a
child under 14 years of age shall be made available on
request to a parent or guardian of that child or may
be disclosed upon the written consent of the library
user or when used to seek reimbursement for or the
return of lost, stolen, misplaced or overdue library
materials.
CHAIR McGUIRE said she would entertain a motion, either to adopt
CSSB 269(CRA) as the work draft - and then consider the proposed
amendment - or to adopt Version S as the work draft.
SENATOR GREEN, turning to Representative Gruenberg's question of
whether the state should determine this issue for all
communities, reiterated that the legislature has already done so
by enacting AS 40.25.140 originally.
CHAIR McGUIRE suggested that the questions that remain are
whether there should be any distinction between different types
of libraries and whether there should be any age distinction
and, if so, whether 14 is the right age.
Number 1125
SENATOR GREEN recapped current law.
CHAIR McGUIRE explained that the HCS, Version S, proposes to
keep the section of law pertaining to confidentiality of library
records the same with regard to the types of libraries it
addresses and just adds public library nonprofit corporations,
proposes to change the exception regarding records of public
elementary or secondary school libraries such that it pertains
to children under 18 years of age, and proposes to stipulate
another exception for all other types of libraries regarding
children under 14 years of age.
SENATOR GREEN opined that changing the age reference to those
under the age of 14, as Version S proposes to do, will create
confusion and will be a step backward, and relayed that she does
not support Version S.
REPRESENTATIVE GARA indicated that he'd still like to hear more
testimony regarding his hypothetical example of a child seeking
material on suicide.
REPRESENTATIVE HOLM expressed disapproval that a librarian has
access to information about a child without there being some
assurance that the librarian hasn't been found guilty of
molesting a child.
Number 0857
JACQUELINE TUPOU, Staff to Senator Lyda Green, Alaska State
Legislature, sponsor, added that the legislature has the duty to
make policy regarding where it wants parental rights to go. She
noted that legislation passed during the 22nd legislature
increased parental accountability for children who vandalize
public school property. She opined that [the change proposed
via Version S] would be a step backward and would send a mixed
message with regard to parental accountability. She stated that
if a teenager wants information about pregnancy, he/she can
simply go to a "Barnes & Noble" bookstore and purchase it. For
instances where public money is used, however, the legislature
needs to make a policy for families and for parental
accountability, she concluded.
CHAIR McGUIRE said that the bill strikes a cord that reminds her
of times when book burnings [as a form of censorship] were
taking place. Some parents don't allow their kids to read
"Harry Potter" books because they think it [promotes]
witchcraft, she noted, and opined that this is a sad thing
because those are some of the best books she's ever read.
Interspersed within the arguments against the bill is the
American concept of freedom of ideas and information and books
that set one free, and some children don't have parents that
encourage their desire to seek out knowledge.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG, turning to Ms. Tupou's argument
favoring a consistent policy with regard to parental rights,
pointed out that the law is not necessarily going to be
consistent; "just because somebody is financial responsible,
that doesn't necessarily mean that they control all aspects of
the person for whom they're responsible."
Number 0572
CLARK GRUENING, Lobbyist for the Alaska Library Association
(AkLA), indicated that Chair McGuire has articulated the AkLA's
concerns, and relayed that he is available for questions. He
mentioned that as a parent, he read to his children when they
were very young and still shares reading experiences with them.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG indicated a willingness to move
adoption of Version S as a work draft.
MR. GRUENING pointed out that Version S does address the issue
of financial responsibility; under Version S, parents would be
able to get information about overdue books. Version S also
addresses the concern regarding when a young adult - which is
what teenagers are becoming, he remarked - gets to keep his/her
library records confidential. He opined that the committee is
aptly suited to make the determination regarding those
distinctions.
CHAIR McGUIRE asked Senator Green whether she envisioned a cause
of action arising from a violation of the proposed law.
Number 0313
SENATOR GREEN opined that a better question would be whether a
cause of action could arise now, under current law, if a library
discloses information [inappropriately], and said she doesn't
know of anyone bringing a lawsuit for that. She suggested that
the annoyance of not being able to get information is more of a
driving factor. With passage of the bill, parents could take a
complaint to the library's governing body if they were unable to
get information they felt entitled to. She opined that the bill
will give clear direction to librarians that children's library
records are available to parents. She expressed a preference
for keeping the age reference as it is in CSSB 269(CRA),
characterizing that action as being "a much cleaner way to do
this."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG, addressing Senator Green, said:
I'm going to offer the [HCS], but I would be prepared
to accept, as friendly amendments, two different
things. ... Number one would be if people wanted to
look at the age on page 2, line 3, to make it 15 or 16
or something like that. ... And secondly, something
that hasn't been discussed, to put another provision
in here conceptually that would allow a locality, by
ordinance, to set a different standard; so this would
essentially be a default if the local government chose
not to act. Would you care to comment on either of
those?
SENATOR GREEN said she is not in favor of Representative
Gruenberg's second suggestion because she doesn't feel it would
be appropriate to delegate the legislature's authority on this
issue in that manner. With regard to the suggestion to change
the age reference, she offered her belief that having the bill
say "under 18 years of age" will ensure that the age of majority
will be speaking in the legislature's favor and that the bill
will be much cleaner. In response to a question, she noted that
the question of changing the age has been discussed in prior
committees but not to the extent that it's being discussed in
this committee.
TAPE 04-85, SIDE A
Number 0001
SENATOR GREEN said she thinks using something other the age of
majority will create confusion.
CHAIR McGUIRE sought confirmation that the bill will not be
interpreted to say that a minor cannot check out a book without
a parent's consent.
SENATOR GREEN indicated that such an interpretation would not
align with her intent. She also indicated a reluctance to add a
provision that would require a person to prove he/she is the
custodial parent or guardian, mentioned the FERPA and federal
funding, and offered her belief that there are probably very few
libraries that haven't been started with federal, state, or
local government public funds. She opined that this acceptance
of public funds does give the state a compelling interest in how
libraries are run.
Number 0283
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to adopt the proposed HCS for SB
269, Version 23-LS1457\S, Mischel, 5/10/04, as the work draft.
REPRESENTATIVE ANDERSON objected.
REPRESENTATIVE GARA said he still has a concern regarding
providing proof that the person is really the custodial parent
or guardian.
SENATOR GREEN reiterated her belief that libraries already have
a mechanism in place to determine whom a custodial parent or
guardian is.
REPRESENTATIVE HOLM reiterated his concern that librarians
aren't subject to criminal history background checks.
Number 0413
A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Ogg, Gara,
Gruenberg, and Samuels voted in favor of adopting Version S as
the work draft. Representatives Holm, Anderson, and McGuire
voted against it. Therefore, Version S was before the committee
by a vote of 4-3.
Number 0536
REPRESENTATIVE GARA said if the committee is going to consider
amending the age reference, he would move to amend it to "13".
He then withdrew that amendment [which did not get labeled].
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG in response to a question, explained
that the bill would not apply to enrolled university students,
regardless of age.
SENATOR GREEN concurred, and, in response to a comment, pointed
out that university libraries are open to the public and thus
books can be checked out by anyone including those under the age
of majority.
REPRESENTATIVE ANDERSON expressed a preference for not amending
Version S.
SENATOR GREEN again reiterated her preference for having the age
of majority be the cutoff, and added that she would then be
willing to accept the language in proposed paragraphs (1)-(3) of
Version S, since it would address the concerns members have.
CHAIR McGUIRE said that that makes sense.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG agreed, but then added that he is not
in favor of retaining proposed paragraph (1), which reads, "the
parent or guardian of that child makes a written request for the
records".
SENATOR GREEN, notwithstanding her earlier comment, then said
she can't agree with any of the changes that Version S
incorporates.
The committee took an at-ease from 1:12 p.m. to 1:20 p.m.
CHAIR McGUIRE predicted that there will be an objection on the
House floor to adopting Version S.
Number 0860
REPRESENTATIVE OGG made a motion to adopt Amendment 1, on page
2, line 3, replace "under 14 years" with "over 16 years of age
and unemancipated".
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he would accept that.
REPRESENTATIVE OGG then said, "'16 and over'."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked, "Why don't we say, "at least 16
years of age or unemancipated'?"
REPRESENTATIVE OGG said that would be fine.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG then said, "Well, conceptually, 'at
least 16 years of age and unemancipated'."
REPRESENTATIVE GARA pointed out that that language means the
same as "16 or older".
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG responded, "Let's say, 'at least 16
years of age and unemancipated'."
REPRESENTATIVE OGG said Amendment 1 was inspired by
Representative Samuels's comments, and noted that people are
allowed to drive cars at the age of 16 without parental
supervision.
Number 0942
CHAIR McGUIRE asked whether there were any objections to
Amendment 1, "to make it, 'over 16 years old and
unemancipated'." There being none, Amendment 1 was adopted.
SENATOR GREEN asked how the bill would now read with
Amendment 1.
CHAIR McGUIRE said that the way she reads it is that a parent
could access the information of a child 16 years of age and
older and unemancipated if the criteria in paragraphs (1)-(3)
are met, and for a child under that age, a parent could access
the information without meeting the aforementioned criteria.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG offered that the intent is to create a
right of privacy to those 16 years of age and over.
CHAIR McGUIRE and REPRESENTATIVE OGG agreed.
REPRESENTATIVE HOLM suggested that they debate this amendment on
the House floor.
CHAIR McGUIRE pointed out, however, that Amendment 1 to Version
S, which is the version before the committee, has already been
adopted without objection.
SENATOR GREEN expressed her belief that the language inserted
via Amendment 1 will be in conflict with the language in
subsection (b).
REPRESENTATIVES ANDERSON reiterated Chair McGuire's
interpretation of Amendment 1.
Number 1130
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he would like to reword Amendment
1 such that the language on page 2, lines 3-4, would be changed
to read in part: "identifying a child under 16 years of age and
unemancipated".
Number 1157
CHAIR McGUIRE suggested, then, that they should also delete
paragraphs (1), (2), and (3). If paragraphs (1)-(3) remain, she
opined, it would create a different burden than what is
currently in [subsection (b)]. She offered her understanding
that Representative Gruenberg's latest suggestion coupled with
her suggestion would result in making the library records of a
child under 16 years of age and unemancipated available to a
parent or guardian of the child.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he would accept that as a friendly
amendment.
SENATOR GREEN asked for clarification.
CHAIR McGUIRE offered her belief that such a change would ensure
that the language in subsection (c) comports with the language
in subsection (b). She indicated that subsection (c) would then
read: "(c) Records of a library operated by the state, a
municipality, the University of Alaska, or by a public library
nonprofit corporation identifying a child under 16 years of age
and unemancipated shall be made available to a parent or
guardian of that child.".
Number 1257
CHAIR McGUIRE labeled the foregoing change as new Amendment 2.
[Although no formal motion was made, no objection was heard and
so Amendment 2 was treated as adopted.]
Number 1260
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS moved to report the proposed HCS for SB
269, Version 23-LS1457\S, Mischel, 5/10/04, as amended, out of
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying
fiscal notes. There being no objection, HCS CSSB 269(JUD) was
reported from the House Judiciary Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1265
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Judiciary Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 1:30 p.m.
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