02/20/2002 01:08 PM House JUD
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE
February 20, 2002
1:08 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Norman Rokeberg, Chair
Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chair
Representative Jeannette James
Representative John Coghill
Representative Kevin Meyer
Representative Ethan Berkowitz
Representative Albert Kookesh
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 281
"An Act relating to civil liability for providing alcoholic
beverages to a person under 21 years of age; and providing for
an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 25
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of
Alaska relating to initiative and referendum petitions.
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 213
"An Act relating to initiative and referendum petitions; and
providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 281
SHORT TITLE:CIVIL LIABILITY FOR PROVIDING ALCOHOL
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)MEYER
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
01/14/02 1948 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 1/4/02
01/14/02 1948 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
01/14/02 1948 (H) L&C, JUD
02/11/02 2209 (H) COSPONSOR(S): DYSON
02/11/02 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
02/11/02 (H) Moved Out of Committee
MINUTE(L&C)
02/13/02 2222 (H) L&C RPT 5DP 1NR
02/13/02 2222 (H) DP: ROKEBERG, MEYER, KOTT,
HALCRO,
02/13/02 2222 (H) MURKOWSKI; NR: CRAWFORD
02/13/02 2222 (H) FN1: ZERO(H.L&C)
02/20/02 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
BILL: HJR 25
SHORT TITLE:CONST AM: INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)WILLIAMS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
03/26/01 0728 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
03/26/01 0728 (H) STA, JUD, FIN
04/24/01 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/24/01 (H) Bill Postponed
04/26/01 1256 (H) COSPONSOR(S): WILSON
04/26/01 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/26/01 (H) Scheduled But Not Heard
04/26/01 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/28/01 (H) STA AT 9:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/28/01 (H) <Bill Postponed>
02/07/02 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
02/07/02 (H) Moved Out of Committee
MINUTE(STA)
02/08/02 2176 (H) STA RPT 5DP 2DNP
02/08/02 2176 (H) DP: WILSON, STEVENS, JAMES,
FATE,
02/08/02 2176 (H) COGHILL; DNP: CRAWFORD, HAYES
02/08/02 2177 (H) FN1: (GOV)
02/08/02 2177 (H) REFERRED TO JUDICIARY
02/20/02 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
BILL: HB 213
SHORT TITLE:INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)WILLIAMS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
03/26/01 0729 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
03/26/01 0729 (H) STA, JUD, FIN
04/24/01 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/24/01 (H) Bill Postponed
04/26/01 1257 (H) COSPONSOR(S): WILSON
04/26/01 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/26/01 (H) Heard & Held
04/26/01 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/28/01 (H) STA AT 9:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/28/01 (H) <Bill Postponed>
02/07/02 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
02/07/02 (H) Moved Out of Committee
MINUTE(STA)
02/08/02 2178 (H) STA RPT 5DP 1DNP 1NR
02/08/02 2178 (H) DP: WILSON, STEVENS, JAMES,
FATE,
02/08/02 2178 (H) COGHILL; DNP: CRAWFORD; NR:
HAYES
02/08/02 2178 (H) FN1: ZERO(GOV)
02/08/02 2178 (H) REFERRED TO JUDICIARY
02/20/02 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
WITNESS REGISTER
PAMELA WATTS, Executive Director
Governor's Advisory Board on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse
Office of the Commissioner
Department of Health and Social Services (DHSS)
3290 Nowell Avenue
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 281.
CINDY CASHEN
Juneau Chapter
Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD)
211 4th Street, Suite 102
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 281.
DONNA GARNER, Executive Director
Victims for Justice
1057 West Fireweed Lane, Suite 101
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 281.
MIKE FORD, Attorney
Legislative Counsel
Legal and Research Services Division
Legislative Affairs Agency
Terry Miller Building, Room 329
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke as the drafter of HB 281 and
responded to questions.
RANDY RUARO, Staff
to Representative William "Bill" Williams
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 515
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 213 and HJR 25 on behalf of
the sponsor, Representative Williams.
KATHERINE M. NELSON
PO Box 233146
Anchorage, Alaska 99523
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 213 and HJR
25.
ALVIN ANDERS, Chair
Alaska Libertarian Party
810 West 10th Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 213 and HJR
25, and provided remarks on behalf of Kenneth P. Jacobus.
KAREN BRETZ, Alaskans for Efficient Government
PO Box 91457
Anchorage, Alaska 99509
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 213 and HJR
25.
UWE KALENKA, Alaskans for Efficient Government
PO Box 92824
Anchorage, Alaska 99509
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 213 and HJR
25.
MICHELE KECK
PO Box 103424
Anchorage, Alaska 99510
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 213 and HJR
25.
RYAN R. KENNEDY, Chairman
Anchorage Citizens for Taxi Reform
3400 West 30th Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99517
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 213 and HJR
25.
SUSAN E. SCHRADER, Alaska Conservation Voters
PO Box 22151
Juneau, Alaska 99802
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 213 and HJR
25.
GAIL FENUMIAI, Election Program Specialist
Central Office
Division of Elections
Office of the Lieutenant Governor
PO Box 110017
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0017
POSITION STATEMENT: Responded to questions during discussion of
HB 213 and HJR 25.
MATT WILLIAMS, Officer
Anchorage Police Department (APD)
74201 Sunview Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99515
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 281.
MARTI GREESON, Executive Director
Anchorage Chapter
Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD)
3600 Arctic Boulevard, Suite 3
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 281.
CATHIE MAURO
2730 West 80th Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99502
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of HB 281, described some
of the costs she has incurred, and offered her support of HB
281.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 02-19, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR NORMAN ROKEBERG called the House Judiciary Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:08 p.m. Representatives
Rokeberg, Ogan, Coghill, Meyer, and Berkowitz were present at
the call to order. Representatives James and Kookesh arrived as
the meeting was in progress.
HB 281 - CIVIL LIABILITY FOR PROVIDING ALCOHOL
Number 0057
CHAIR ROKEBERG announced that the first order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 281, "An Act relating to civil liability for
providing alcoholic beverages to a person under 21 years of age;
and providing for an effective date."
Number 0069
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER, sponsor, noted that in Alaska as well as
across the nation, underage drinking is a significant problem.
He said that according to a study conducted in 2000, "people who
begin drinking before age 15 are four times as likely to develop
alcohol dependence, and more than twice as likely to develop
alcohol abuse, than those who delay drinking until the legal age
of 21." He added that statistics related to [fatal auto
accidents] climb when a drunken teenager gets behind the wheel
of a car. He remarked that the tragedy last July, which took
the lives of three teenagers and police officer Justin Wollam,
has highlighted the problems of underage drinking, drinking and
driving, and adults providing alcohol to minors.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER explained that under HB 281, an adult who
knowingly furnishes alcohol to a person under the age of 21 can
be held civilly liable for the resulting damages. Under current
statute, he noted, licensees who knowingly sell alcohol to a
minor can be held civilly liable for damages if it's determined
that the alcohol is a substantial factor in causing injury or
damage. Therefore, he observed, HB 281 holds the general public
to the same high standard to which liquor establishments are
held. Relaying that 30 other states currently have similar
liability provisions in law, he opined that although such laws
alone do not eliminate underage drinking or access to alcohol,
they do help deter adults from furnishing alcohol to minors. He
posited that passage of HB 281 would send a message that "we do
not want our kids to have alcohol," and would provide civil
recourse for victims' families.
Number 0325
PAMELA WATTS, Executive Director, Governor's Advisory Board on
Alcoholism and Drug Abuse ("Advisory Board"), Office of the
Commissioner, Department of Health and Social Services (DHSS),
spoke in support of HB 281. She said that the Advisory Board
appreciates Representative Meyer's recognition of the
seriousness of underage drinking in Alaska, and of the need to
hold adults who furnish alcohol to persons under 21 accountable
for the damages that result from underage drinking. She noted
that the Advisory Board believes that many adult Alaskans who
provide alcohol to underage drinkers simply fail to realize the
potential life-threatening problems associated with providing
that alcohol. She opined that knowing that they might be
civilly liable for any resulting damages might cause those
adults to pause and reconsider before providing alcohol to
underage drinkers.
MS. WATTS noted that family and peers can also influence
underage-drinking behavior, either actively, by explicitly
discouraging use, or passively, by providing models of drinking
behavior. She relayed, for example, that a Columbia University
study reports that adolescents whose fathers have more than two
drinks a day have a 71 percent greater risk of substance abuse.
She also relayed that 95 percent of violent crime on college
campuses is alcohol related and 90 percent of "college rapes"
involve alcohol use by the victim and/or the assailant. She
noted that suicide among Alaskan youth is a very serious
problem, and that alcohol use among adolescents has been
associated with considering, planning, attempting, and
completing suicide.
Number 0472
MS. WATTS, after acknowledging that prevention programs are
working, also stated:
We need your continued support and advocacy to
encourage activities and initiatives that will change
community standards and emphasize healthy lifestyles.
We need to develop sufficient resources to meet
community needs for appropriate levels of intervention
and treatment for the underage population identified
as having alcohol or other drug problems. But the
bottom line here is that adults who provide alcohol to
underage drinkers assume a heavy responsibility; this
legislation makes clear what that responsibility is
and the consequences associated with it. The
[Governor's] Advisory Board on Alcoholism and Drug
Abuse encourages your wholehearted support of this
legislation.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked whether there is any outreach
program designed to educate the public that proposals such as HB
281 are in the works.
MS. WATTS said having such an outreach program would be an
excellent idea, and opined that it should be part of a
comprehensive prevention/education plan. In response to a
question, she explained that while the Advisory Board writes the
state plan for prevention and education, it is the Division of
Alcoholism and Drug Abuse (DADA) that implements and oversees
that plan.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked: "In your opinion, is that plan
currently funded adequately?"
MS. WATTS responded:
I don't believe that we have adequate resources to get
the message out to people to the extent necessary to
be as effective as it could be, and we certainly also
don't have adequate resources for [treatment services
for underage drinkers], both on an outpatient and a
residential basis.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ: "So it would be fair to say, based on
what you have just told me, that if this legislature were truly
interested and committed to reducing problems associated with
alcohol, we would increase funding to those areas and those
concerns."
MS. WATTS said: "That's correct."
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER mentioned that there is other legislation
that would allow for a $100 fine to be assessed against everyone
convicted of driving while intoxicated (DWI), with that money
then going to various [law] enforcement agencies for the purpose
of purchasing new equipment.
Number 0708
CINDY CASHEN, Juneau Chapter, Mothers Against Drunk Driving
(MADD), noted that in addition to being a member of MADD, she is
also a "victim of drunk driving." She offered her condolences
to the families of those killed in the aforementioned July
tragedy. She explained that when a drunk driver killed her
father a year ago, she had to go through the same experience,
and she noted that such an experience ages a person. She opined
that HB 281 will serve as a deterrent, and stated that MADD
supports this bill because "we feel that there will be, in the
future, people who might have been killed by drunk driving who
will remain alive; we'll never know who those people are but
they will have invisible wings on them, so to speak - they will
still be alive" - because of the effects of HB 281. She
encouraged the committee to pass HB 281 and she thanked
Representative Meyer for offering it.
Number 0797
DONNA GARNER, Executive Director, Victims for Justice, testified
via teleconference in support of HB 281. She noted that for the
victim and the victim's family, there are always casualties,
whether it's from property loss, loss of life, or medical bills.
She mentioned that the aftermath of such an incident as occurred
last July, for example, involves years of counseling, so from a
financial standpoint, victims and their families are victimized
all over again. She opined that holding the offender
accountable is necessary for the healing of the victim, and that
HB 281 would give additional closure from the victim's point of
view. She mentioned that she has teenagers of her own and,
thus, has a lot of teenagers coming in and out of her home, and
she has noticed that kids really do consider drinking to be a
rite of passage: "You find an adult, you score, and you bring
home alcohol." Therefore, she opined, it really is necessary to
send the message that this activity is not going to be
tolerated.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ noted that strict liability is somewhat
unusual in tort law, and asked for an explanation of what it
means and for a description of other possible alternatives.
Number 0976
MIKE FORD, Attorney, Legislative Counsel, Legal and Research
Services Division, Legislative Affairs Agency, confirmed that
strict liability is unusual wit regard to tort law, and
explained that what it really does is remove one of the
components that must normally be shown in order to collect civil
damages. By including a "strictly liable provision," in order
to make someone liable for civil damages, it will not be
necessary to show that he/she was negligent or that his/her
actions fell below the standard of a reasonable person. In
response to a question, he indicated that the fact that a person
committed the act is enough [to establish liability]. He noted
that there are already similar provisions in law, referring to
commercial fishing offenses as an example: "If you drift into a
closed area, whether you intended to or not, you're liable."
CHAIR ROKEBERG asked whether the hosts of a large social
gathering could be held strictly liable if underage guests
consumed alcohol at that gathering.
MR. FORD, in response, explained that currently, civil liability
only applies to "people who are licensed," so if a person is not
licensed [to distribute alcohol], then he/she can not be held
civilly liable for what happens as a result of providing alcohol
to another person. He added, however, that it is still a crime
under AS 04.16.051 to provide alcohol to a minor. He pointed
out that HB 281 would change the existing law pertaining to
civil liability to say that if a person, regardless of whether
he/she is a licensee, provides alcohol to a minor, then that
person could be held civilly liable. So, yes, he answered, the
host of social gathering could be held civilly liable under HB
281. He did note that it is not a violation of existing law to
provide alcohol to one's own child.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN surmised, then, that strict liability means
that it does not have to be proven that the person providing
alcohol to someone underage has "a culpable mental state." He
asked whether there is any insurance available such as
homeowner's insurance, for example, that would protect the
social host who might be held civilly liable under HB 281.
MR. FORD said he did not know "what the typical homeowner's
policy would do in this situation."
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER pointed out that a key term in HB 281 is
"knowingly", which is a fairly high standard; therefore, the
host would have to know that he/she is serving alcohol to
someone underage.
Number 1312
MR. FORD confirmed this, both that there is a requirement of
knowledge on the part of the person providing the alcohol, and
that "knowingly" is a fairly high standard.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER asked whether changing the language from
"strictly liable" to "civilly liable" would change the standard.
MR. FORD confirmed that such a change would provide for a
different standard. He elaborated:
If you did that, you're going to be requiring them to
show different elements in order to collect these
civil damages. One of the elements they'd have to
show is that the person acted below the reasonable
man's standard, and the court would determine that,
case by case.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER asked: "Do we really need to do something
like that since we have the word 'knowingly' in the bill?"
MR. FORD replied that changing it to a civil liability standard
would simply be adopting a different approach.
CHAIR ROKEBERG asked Mr. Ford to describe the differences in
civil liability standards.
MR. FORD explained:
Strict liability is when negligence is not a part of
the configuration of what you need to show. Once you
go into negligence, you can have different forms of
negligence. You can have an act that is grossly
negligent; that could be your standard. In other
words, to collect damages, you have to show that the
act is beyond what is normally a negligent act. You
could have simple negligence. There are other
standards, which sometimes get lumped together;
probably the highest one would be an intentional act,
where you intentionally cause someone harm.
Intentional, gross, simple negligence or -- well,
gross - or reckless - simple negligence; those are
probably the ones that are most commonly used.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL recounted that he has been to weddings
and other family gatherings where alcohol was furnished but not
strictly monitored. He asked whether the host would still be
held strictly liable if he/she does not maintain control over
who consumes it.
MR. FORD surmised that it would be up to a court to interpret
such a situation, adding that he is not aware of any cases that
have dealt with that particular question. He opined that one
reason why the legislature, to date, has eliminated civil
liability for providing alcohol - except for people who are
licensed - is because of these issues. "When do you cross that
line from ... providing alcohol to simply having it on your
premises and someone gets access to it," he pondered. He added
that he would research that issue and look for any case law
pertinent to it. In response to questions, he reiterated that
currently, only licensees can be civilly liable.
Number 1546
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if the language being added, beginning
on page 1, line 13, pertains to bootleggers.
MR. FORD explained that that language is simply a technical
amendment. "I had to separate some language out in order to
incorporate the new language; it makes no change to existing
law," he added.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ noted that the first amendment he ever
passed was to make bootleggers civilly liable for the cost of
their prosecution, adding that to date, that provision has not
been used.
CHAIR ROKEBERG read a portion from the Notes to Decisions
section of AS 04.21.020:
Nonlicensees illegally furnishing liquor to minors. -
Given the plain language of this section and the
absence of convincing contrary legislative history,
the court cannot by statutory interpretation construe
this section to be inapplicable to nonlicensees who
illegally furnish liquor to minors. Chokwak v.
Worley, 912 P.2d 1248 (Alaska 1996).
He asked for an interpretation of this reference to
inapplicability.
MR. FORD said: "What there saying is [that] they can't read a
civil liability provision into law when the law says there isn't
one."
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said that according to his
recollection, the Chokwak case involved an [underage] plaintiff
who got drunk, got in an accident and was injured, and then sued
the host of the party. He asked if that case could have been
pursued for civil [damages] under exiting statute.
MR. FORD initially indicated that it could not but added that he
would research that case for a definitive answer.
CHAIR ROKEBERG noted that he shared some of the concerns
expressed about the strict liability standard.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ expressed a willingness to accept a
negligent standard instead, adding that he thinks it is the
appropriate standard.
Number 1795
CHAIR ROKEBERG announced that HB 281 would be set aside. [It
was taken up again following the hearing on HJR 25 and HB 213.]
HJR 25 - CONST AM: INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
HB 213 - INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
Number 1799
CHAIR ROKEBERG announced that the committee would next hear both
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 25, Proposing an amendment to the
Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to initiative and
referendum petitions; and HOUSE BILL NO. 213, "An Act relating
to initiative and referendum petitions; and providing for an
effective date."
Number 1820
RANDY RUARO, Staff to Representative William "Bill" Williams,
Alaska State Legislature, on behalf of Representative Williams,
sponsor, said that [HB 213 and HJR 25] adds to the initiative
process a requirement that initiative sponsors gather signatures
equal to 7 percent of the voters who voted in the preceding
general election, in three-fourths - or 30 - of the 40 House
districts, before the initiative is placed on the ballot. He
offered that this change would guarantee that before an
initiative reaches the ballot, there is "some baseline minimal
showing of statewide support." He said that the sponsor
believes that this is good public policy. He noted that of the
23 states that have some form of the initiative process, a
majority of them have adopted "geographic signature
requirements."
MR. RUARO said that Washington State has legislation pending
that would impose an 11 percent geographic signature
requirement. Arkansas, Missouri, Nebraska, and Ohio have a 5
percent geographic signature requirement. Idaho has a 6 percent
geographic signature requirement. Florida has an 8 percent
geographic signature requirement. Montana, Nevada, and Utah
have a 10 percent geographic signature requirement. Wyoming has
a 15 percent geographic signature requirement. Massachusetts
has a 20 percent geographic signature requirement. And Maine
has a little different requirement in that not more than 25
percent of the signatures can come from any one district. He
pointed out that the 7 percent requirement, as proposed by [HB
213 and HJR 25], tends to "weigh in on the lower end of the
scale" in comparison to some other states. In conclusion, he
urged members to support [HB 213 and HJR 25].
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked: "What is the problem we're
trying to fix?"
MR. RUARO indicated that although it may not necessarily be a
"problem," there is a perception that the debates surrounding
initiatives need to be expanded [beyond the large population
centers]. He did acknowledge, however, that in members' packets
there is a handout indicating that for one recent initiative, in
at least 24 House districts, enough signatures - over 7 percent
- were gathered. "So, even with the current process, it seems
like there is some gathering of statewide support; this just
formalizes it, I guess," he added.
Number 1992
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ, to illustrate the problem that he sees
with [HB 213 and HJR 25], noted that the Idaho requirement cited
by Mr. Ruaro has been overturned by the [U.S. District Court -
District of Idaho] November 2001 Idaho Coalition United et al.
v. Pete T. Cenarrusa decision. Representative Berkowitz also
noted that the Cenarrusa decision cited a U.S. Supreme Court
case, Moore v. Ogilvie, 394 U.S. 814 (1969), which said:
[It is] no answer to the argument under the Equal
Protection Clause that this law was designed to
require statewide support for launching a new
political party rather than support from a few
localities. This law applies a rigid, arbitrary
formula to sparsely settled counties and populous
counties alike, contrary to the constitutional ...
theme of equality among citizens in the exercise of
their political rights. The idea that one group can
be granted greater voting strength than another is
hostile to the one man, one vote basis of our
representative government.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ mentioned that the Moore v. Ogilvie
case was also cited in the 2000 U.S. Supreme Court case, Bush v.
Gore, which said: "... we invalidated a county-based procedure
that diluted the influence of citizens in larger counties in the
nominating process." Therefore, Representative Berkowitz
surmised, "we're in a legal posture now where the U.S. Supreme
Court is, at the very least, hostile to the notion that we can
[institute] geographically based requirements for initiatives."
He asked Mr. Ruaro to comment.
MR. RUARO noted that he did come across the Cenarrusa case, but
his research indicated that that case is under appeal and that
the "attorney for the state of Idaho" has expressed confidence
in being able to overturn that decision. He relayed that the
attorney said that the court misread Moore v. Ogilvie and that
it dealt with a geographic requirement for a specific number of
voters - 200 signatures from each of at least 50 of that state's
102 counties; thus, by having a set number, if a district had
less than that required number of voters in it, too large a
percentage of signatures must be gathered.
MR. RUARO pointed out that in contrast, [HB 213 and HJR 25]
requires a percentage of signatures and not a set number. Thus,
he added, "there is no dilution; if you have 1,000 voters in a
rural district you need 7 percent, if you have 10,000 [voters]
in an urban [district] you need 7 percent, so there's no
weighting of the voters' rights differently, it remains a
constant percentage in each district."
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said that he is interested in finding
out, from those who are supportive of [HB 213 and HJR 25], why
they feel this sort of change is necessary. He said that
understanding that reasoning could assist him in developing a
solution to the perceived problem.
CHAIR ROKEBERG posited that it might be based on "Alaskan
political sectionalism," an issue about which he'd written his
senior thesis.
Number 2196
KATHERINE M. NELSON testified via teleconference, noting that
she collects a lot of signatures on a statewide basis for a
variety of petitions, said that increasing the amount of
signatures per district could hurt many of the petitions. She
mentioned that she did not think it is fair to increase the
number signatures required because it increases the likelihood
that the petitions will be disqualified.
Number 2260
ALVIN ANDERS, Chair, Alaska Libertarian Party, testified via
teleconference, and indicated he would be entering into the
record some remarks made by Kenneth P. Jacobus, who was unable
to attend this meeting but who has testified at previous
hearings on [HB 213 and HJR 25]:
There is no reason that Republicans should lead the
charge to deprive the voters of Alaska of their rights
to initiative. In particular, [if] we - speaking as
[a] Republican - want to elect a Republican governor
at the next election and retain Republican seats in
the newly reapportioned legislature, we cannot have a
proposed constitutional amendment on the ballot that
could allow our opponents to argue that Republicans
want to deprive the voters of Alaska of their
initiative rights.
MR. ANDERS, speaking on his own behalf, said that in addition to
being the chair of the Alaska Libertarian Party, he is the chair
of "Anchorage Citizens for Implementing Medical Marijuana"; is
the past chair and the current treasurer of "Freedom in Alaska";
and has worked on numerous initiatives in the state. He said
that [HB 213 and HJR 25] would make it extremely difficult and
expensive for "initiatives to proceed." He noted that
supporters of the change proposed by [HB 213 and HJR 25] have
conceded the point that it is not really necessary, since it has
been demonstrated that there is already statewide support of
initiatives that get placed on the ballot.
MR. ANDERS recounted that with regard to the initiatives that he
has worked on, "we're always getting initiatives [out to] all
parts of the state, we've flown people to Kodiak, I've flown to
Kodiak on my own expense, [and] we've had people fly out to
Sitka [and] to Cordova." But most of the signatures, under
current law, can be gathered by attending the various fairs from
Fairbanks to Ninilchik. Changing the signature requirement to 7
percent in 30 districts means that if one lives in Ketchikan,
Bethel, or Nome and wants to put an initiative on the ballot, it
would no longer be possible to do so by spending a summer in
Anchorage or Wasilla working the fair circuit.
Number 2372
MR. ANDERS said that under the change proposed by [HB 213 and
HJR 25], a person would have to fly into 30 out of 40 House
districts and gather anywhere from 700 to 1,000 signatures per
district; this represents a 200 to 700 percent increase over the
current requirements. He observed that it has not been
demonstrated that the change proposed by [HB 213 and HJR 25] is
necessary, that it solves any problems, or that it guarantees
that communities will become more involved in the initiative
process. He pointed out that Alaska already has a "geographic
distribution requirement, and signatures are already gathered
from throughout the state.
MR. ANDERS, referring to testimony regarding other states that
have geographic signature requirements, said that these other
states, with "more draconian distribution requirements," also
have better road systems; "I can drive to every county in every
one of those states ... listed." If the State of Alaska is
willing to build roads to [all of its districts] throughout the
state, then perhaps that requirement would make sense, he added.
He pointed out that there are ways to make [the initiative
process] more accessible to "far-flung communities," and would
save the legislature money at the same time:
That ... is very easily done by simply getting rid of
the petition booklets, that the state prints at great
cost to the taxpayers, and making the petitions one
page, with no certificate statement required - they're
already certified if the people signing the petition
are registered voters - ... that could be loaded up on
the Internet, downloaded [via] 'Adobe Access Files,'
and signed anywhere in the state and mailed back in.
So, if you want to make the initiative process more
inclusive and ... save the taxpayers money at the same
time, get rid of the petition booklets, allow us to
circulate a one-page petition like we do for municipal
petitions, and ... return to the days when we had a
grace period.
... If I lived in Nome and I, at my own expense, go
out and gather 30,000 to 40,000 signatures - like the
folks did on the minimum-wage initiative - and then
come up just a few signatures short, [only] to have to
do it again the next year, there aren't many people
that have the resources that the [American Federation
of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations]
(AFL-CIO) had that could put an initiative on the
ballot. We would have had the minimum-wage initiative
on the ballot two years ago if you had not changed the
grace period. So, [Representative] Williams's
initiative is not necessary, there's been no testimony
given that demonstrates that it is necessary, it
doesn't correct any harm, and, in fact, it creates
great damage.
MR. ANDERS, in response to questions, indicated he has not
received any compensation for gathering signatures for the many
initiatives that he has been involved with, among them the "hemp
initiative, ... term-limits initiative, move-the-legislature
[initiative, and the tax-cap initiative]."
TAPE 02-19, SIDE B
Number 2498
MR. ANDERS added that typically, he is the one that pays others
to help him gather signatures. Referring to another issue with
which he has concerns and that he hopes the legislature will
correct, he said:
Currently, we have an unconstitutional, undemocratic,
unrepublican requirement that you can pay $1 per
signature. This violates peoples' free-speech rights
and it's counter to the spirit of free enterprise;
it's just absolutely silly. And what we do, as
citizens putting initiatives on the ballot -- I hate
to hurt your feelings, but it's far more important
than what you folks are doing in Juneau. People, when
they hear our initiative, ... get a chance to decide
whether ... they support it, and then, when and if it
makes it on the ballot, they [again] get to decide if
they support it.
Many a time, we've gone to legislators and [asked],
"Hey, why did you vote for this bill?" And then we
find out later [that] they didn't even have a chance
to read it because it was so large. And, moreover,
oftentimes people complain that these bills ... are
written by lobbyists and passed by legislators who
don't even read them; [legislators] have their staff
read them and report on them. Citizens that sign
these petitions and vote on these issues -- these
issues are debated, they're issues that the
legislature won't touch, and the citizens feel it's
absolutely their only recourse, ... to petition their
government.
MR. ANDERS continued:
So all we're doing by passing [Representative]
Williams's bills is costing the state more money and
creating a court battle that the state's going to have
to resolve, because it's going to go to the supreme
court. ... And, moreover, it just makes bad will for
the Republicans with the electorate. Now, if this is
something Republicans want to champion at this time,
that's okay with me, but we'll be having plenty of
Libertarians on the ballot for people to choose less
government without having to go for somebody that
supports less government and less individual liberty
and less democracy.
Number 2404
CHAIR ROKEBERG said that while he does support the
constitutional right of the people of Alaska to enter into the
initiative process, he would point out that the "legislature
continually has to rewrite or readjust the bad drafting in every
initiative petition that's come along in the last eight years."
He opined that even those petitions that were sponsored by Mr.
Jacobus were poorly drafted because of a lack of proper legal
counsel to assist with the drafting.
MR. ANDERS said he would pass the comments regarding the
drafting of initiatives on to Mr. Jacobus. Mr. Anders mentioned
that Senator Ellis assisted him with his initiative pertaining
to same-day voter registration by having the Legislative Affairs
Agency draft it. He suggested that perhaps Chair Rokeberg's
concern regarding bad draftsmanship of initiative petitions
could be remedied during the approval process by having all
petitions reviewed and redrafted by the legislative Affairs
Agency. He noted that sometimes, when the legislature
"corrected" what it considered to be a badly written petition,
the voters did not look upon that correction favorably.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked whether "people read the bills when
they sign these petitions?"
MR. ANDERS relayed that often, when people are first approached
to sign a petition, they won't sign it at that time; instead,
they will take the informational pamphlets home for later
review. Then, when people are subsequently approached, they
will sign the petitions, particularly if it is an issue that
receives widespread media debate. He noted that initiative
petitions that do not get a lot of media coverage often don't
get a lot of signatures either. He opined that many bills
proposed by the legislature do not receive a lot of public
comment, and suggested that perhaps all legislation should be
subject to voter approval after passage by the legislature. In
this way, he posited, the public would become more informed and
more involved in the process.
CHAIR ROKEBERG remarked that if the "fourth estate" in Alaska
were doing a better job, there would be better publicity about
legislation.
Number 2230
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to the billboard-petition issue,
and said:
There was blatant lies in that drive. I remember they
had on TV [an ad that] said, "Billboards: hundreds of
them, thousands of them, as far as the eye can see."
And they had this graphic cartoon ... of billboards
popping up ... along the sides of the roads. [But]
... billboards were illegal in this state. ... So I
guess one of the things that I have problems with ...
is [that] there's a lack of accountability and honest
advertising in these things.
And the people that I've been approached [by] to sign
petitions are obviously getting paid. They're
hustling signatures; they don't really know what the
issue is. They're approaching you with a sound bite
of, [for example], "Do you want to make it illegal to
shoot wolves from airplanes?" ... I was approached
with that, ... and that was already illegal, and what
they were banning was shooting wolves while airborne
on the same day, but you actually have to land....
So, ... what do you do [to] police your people to make
sure that they're representing these initiatives
honestly?
Number 2157
MR. ANDERS said that that is a good point. He noted that the
two examples Representative Ogan mentioned are two initiatives
that he could have been paid to circulate, but he refused to do
so because he disagreed with them. So, just like people will
refuse to sign a petition because they disagree with it, many
people will refuse to circulate a petition for the same reason.
He said that the people who are good circulators are able to
honestly and accurately represent the [petition]. He said he
has had people tell him that they'd sign any petition,
regardless of the issue, simply because they are huge champions
of the initiative process and they feel that people have a right
to decide these issues. With regard to the issue of whether the
advertising is honest, he said that that is the burden of the
opposition: to point out the flaws. He acknowledged that the
billboard [initiative] advertising, which was very effective and
very clever, "was able to carry the day." He remarked that it
seems he is often in alliance with other initiative groups, not
because he supports their causes, but because he and they all
support the initiative process.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Anders whether he thinks that
rural Alaskans should be disenfranchised from the process.
MR. ANDERS said absolutely not; that is why he is opposed to the
change proposed by [HB 213 and HJR 25], because that is exactly
what it would do. It would not only disenfranchise rural
Alaskans but all Alaskans, he opined.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he disagrees; [HB 213 and HJR 25] seem
to give all Alaskans, not just urban Alaskans, the ability to
drive the "petition process."
MR. ANDERS argued that such a change would not make it easier
for people in rural Alaska to put issues before the voters; if
that is the goal, his suggestion regarding placing initiative
petitions on the Internet is a better solution. The change
proposed by [HB 213 and HJR 25] would make it even more
expensive than it currently is for someone from rural Alaska to
put something on the ballot, he opined.
CHAIR ROKEBERG pointed out that if the change proposed by [HB
213 and HJR 25] is adopted by the legislature, the voters will
have a chance to vote on that change as well.
Number 2014
KAREN BRETZ, Alaskans for Efficient Government, testified via
teleconference. She explained that Alaskans for Efficient
Government is the organization that sponsored the tax-cap
initiative and the ballot initiative to move the Alaska State
Legislature from Juneau to the Matanuska-Susitna Valley ("Mat-Su
Valley"). She reminded the committee that the initiative
process is guaranteed to Alaskan citizens by the Alaska State
Constitution, and opined that HB 213 and HJR 25 limit the
constitutional rights of Alaskan citizens to petition the
government. She continued:
You, the members of the legislature, are our elected
representatives. If the electorate believes that the
legislature is not addressing certain issues, the
electorate has the power to take matters in its own
hands and place issues on the ballot through the
petition process. The petition process serves as an
important safety valve for the people. The resolution
proposes to force us to vote on whether our
constitutional rights should be limited. This is
unacceptable.
If passed, this bill and resolution will further
alienate the electorate. From the experiences of Mr.
Kalenka and myself collecting signatures to make the
legislature more accessible, I tell you, the
electorate is already jaded and disillusioned. They
want their voices to be heard more clearly, not
muffled. And I will also add that Mr. Kalenka and I
were not paid to collect signatures [for] the
legislative-move initiative or for the tax cap. In
fact, we spent a great deal of our own money and time
to place those issues on the ballot.
MS. BRETZ continued:
One argument presented in favor of the bill and the
resolution is that they will give more power to the
rural communities. This isn't necessary; rural
communities already have the opportunity to vote on
all proposed [initiatives and referendums], just like
everyone else in the state does. The proposed
restrictions will increase the cost and work necessary
to put an issue on the ballot; they will prevent
regular citizens from participating in the initiative
process. Only well-funded special interest groups
will be able to place issues on the ballot. Those
well-funded special interest groups, in effect, will
be able to buy a place on the ballot, while regular
citizens will not be able to get their issues heard.
On behalf of the voters of Alaska, I urge you to not
pass [HB 213 and HJR 25] out of your committee. Thank
you.
CHAIR ROKEBERG noted that currently, two-thirds of the House
districts have to be represented, whereas the change proposed by
[HB 213 and HJR 25] will only raise that number by three or four
districts. He asked: "Is it the 7 percent that troubles you?"
MS. BRETZ said: "The entire bill troubles me; the spirit of the
bill is restricting the rights of the people to petition the
government, and I'm disturbed that the legislature is trying to
restrict that [right]."
Number 1855
UWE KALENKA, Alaskans for Efficient Government, testified via
teleconference, and said simply that [HB 213 and HJR 25] are
ill-conceived, are ill-advised, and should not pass out of
committee. [The proposed legislation] tampers with the peoples'
constitutional rights, he opined, and violates the spirit of the
[Alaska State] Constitution.
Number 1796
MICHELE KECK testified via teleconference, and said she has
worked on several initiatives as a consultant and an organizer.
She opined that [HB 213 and HJR 25] wouldn't solve the perceived
problem that the sponsor is trying to fix. Making the signature
phase harder is not going to make it fairer to the smaller
communities; it's just going to make it harder for them to get
things on the ballot. In the signature phase, she observed,
people sign mostly just so that things will appear on the
ballot, not necessarily because they support or oppose any given
issue. She elaborated: "Out gathering signatures, you'll hear
time and time again, 'I'm not sure if I'll agree, but, sure,
I'll sign just to get it on the ballot and vote on it.'" And
the reason people do this, she surmised, is because they support
the initiative process; they want to have the debate, and decide
and vote on the issues, themselves. She posited that the public
does not want what they perceive to be a restriction on the
initiative process.
MS. KECK said that [HB 213 and HJR 25] would raise the costs of
initiatives, which will make it more prohibitive for the smaller
communities in rural Alaska to participate; therefore, the
people with less money - the average citizens and the average
groups - will be limited in their ability to participate. She
opined that the ability to participate in the initiative process
will shift into the hands of professional signature gatherers
and outside organizations with a lot of money to "pull these
things off." She also opined that the 7-percent-from-each-
district requirement is much too high; currently, there is a
statewide 10 percent requirement, which averages out to about
22,000 signatures. She noted, however, that in reality, to put
an issue on the ballot, 35,000 to 40,000 signatures must be
gathered; therefore, raising the requirement to 7 percent would
actually have the effect of requiring signatures from about 12
percent of a district's registered voters.
Number 1684
MS. KECK offered that if the goal is to make the initiative
process more accessible to rural Alaska, "we should do things
like allow petitions on the e-mail, or make it easier for people
in rural communities to sign," since access in Alaska is
limited. To have a good initiative campaign, she explained,
"you do need to go out and get support from all sorts of people
around the state"; people involved with Anchorage-based
petitions make an effort to go out to the airport and to the
state fairs to talk with people who live outside the Anchorage
community, because without statewide support, the initiative
won't succeed.
MS. KECK, on the issues of honest advertising, drafting
problems, and sound bites, said that those issues are separate
from, and will not be addressed by, making the signature
requirement harder. She stated that the initiative process is
already hard enough, and that the reason there are problems with
people gathering signatures on the street is that there is a lot
of pressure to get so many signatures in a short period of time.
She said: "We don't need the process made harder." If any
changes occur, they should be ones that make it easier for
people to participate. She suggested that one only has to look
at the number of initiatives filed, as compared to the number
that actually make it on the ballot, to see that the initiative
process is not out of control and should be left alone.
CHAIR ROKEBERG, referring to Ms. Keck's statement that passage
of [HB 213 and HJR 25] would, in actuality, require that about
12 percent of a district's registered voters sign a petition,
asked whether this is because some of the signatures are
illegible or because petitions are signed by people who are not
registered voters.
MS. KECK explained that petitioners ask people whether they are
registered to vote before they are allowed to sign, but pointed
out that because many people are in a hurry when they sign the
petition, oftentimes what is hurriedly written on the petition
does not appear to match what the Division of Elections has, and
so those names gets thrown out. She noted that when address
information no longer matches what the Division of Election has,
those names also get thrown out, as do names in which use of a
middle initial does not match. Because of these and other
reasons, many names are thrown out, she said, remarking that
there is no way to verify that a signature will be considered
valid and thus count towards fulfilling the requirement.
Number 1515
RYAN KENNEDY, Chairman, Anchorage Citizens for Taxi Reform,
testified via teleconference, and after noting that he is a
loyal Republican, said that he feels that there are a lot of
problems with [HB 213 and HJR 25]. He opined that [HB 213 and
HJR 25] would be introducing a "federal character" into the
initiative process, adding that he does not see any reason to
make such a change. He pointed out that the governor is elected
by a simple majority of votes and does not have to garner a
certain number of votes according to a geographical requirement.
So why should the initiative process be any different, he asked.
He opined that the only reason to adopt [HB 213 and HJR 25] is
to make the current initiative process more difficult, and aside
from that, there is no compelling reason for adopting this
legislation.
MR. KENNEDY noted that although citizens have a constitutional
right to petition the government, adoption of [HB 213 and HJR
25] would simply be piling more restrictions onto the initiative
process. He recounted that during the signature phase of the
initiative that he was involved with, although he could collect
signatures at the airport, he had to first be issued a permit
and then was limited to a certain area and certain times. He
also recounted that when he was filing for the permit, he was
told that if the issuing agency did not agree with the subject
of his initiative, he would not be issued the permit that would
allow him to gather signatures at the airport.
MR. KENNEDY noted that although the issuing agency later
apologized for that statement and agreed that it did not have
the right to limit Mr. Kennedy's right to petition his
government, his point is that [HB 213 and HJR 25] are merely an
attempt to limit his right to petition and make it more
difficult. Pretty soon, the only people who will be able to
sponsor initiatives are those with "vested interests," whereas
the whole point of the initiative process, he posited, is to
circumvent powerful special interest groups and the political
pressures that they bring to bear on the legislature.
Number 1261
SUSAN E. SCHRADER, Alaska Conservation Voters (ACV), after
noting that the ACV is a coalition of 34 environmental
organizations with a combined membership of about 35,000 Alaskan
voters, said that the ACV has always opposed any measures that
would restrict the initiative process. She said that she agrees
with many of the comments made by previous speakers opposed to
[HB 213 and HJR 25]. She continued:
I did want to point out two pieces of factual
information that you might want to consider. And that
is ... that Alaskan voters have spoken recently in two
instances on the issue of restricting the initiative
process. One, you will recall, was Ballot Measure 1,
which was the ballot in November of 2000, and that was
a proposed amendment to the [Alaska State]
Constitution to restrict the initiative process so it
could not be used to address wildlife issues. ... I'd
like to remind you that that ballot measure failed
overwhelmingly by 65 percent; in District 5, 74
percent of the voters voted it down.
And I believe this was not so much an issue of voting
for or against wolf control, this was an issue voting
for or against limiting people's ability to use the
initiative process - essentially what Alaskan voters
would be addressing if [HJR 25] makes it to the
ballot. In District 11, 65 percent voted no; in
District 13, 70 percent voted no; in District 19, 66
percent voted no; in District 27, 61 percent voted no;
in District 32, 59 percent [voted no]; and in District
34, 60 percent of the voters voted, "No, we do not
want our rights to use the initiative process
restricted."
And then the other piece of information [that] I
believe ... was attached to our position paper ... was
a poll that Alaska Conservation Alliance had Ivan
Moore (ph) run in January. ... There was one question
in that poll that simply asked, "Do you favor or
oppose measures that limit citizen ballot
initiatives?" And overwhelmingly, again, 75 percent
of those polled, in this Ivan Moore poll, said that
they oppose such measures. So, I just want you to
have that information; my prediction would be, if
these measures did make it to ballot, that once again
Alaskan voters will overwhelmingly turn it down. But
that is certainly in your hands, whether or not you
want to put it on the ballot.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL asked how many votes it would take to
fulfill a 7 percent requirement.
Number 1649
GAIL FENUMIAI, Election Program Specialist, Central Office,
Division of Elections, Office of the Lieutenant Governor,
referred members to a spreadsheet provided by the division. She
explained that the spreadsheet lists, by House district, the
number of registered voters, the number of people who voted in
the 2000 general election, and 7 percent of that number who
voted. She noted that the 7-percent figure is dependent on the
voter turnout in each district and ranges between 217 and [730].
She also noted that in members' packets is a multi-page
spreadsheet detailing how many signatures were verified for each
petition over the last several years, and what the 7 percent
requirement would have been had the change proposed by [HB 213
and HJR 25] been in effect at that time. She reminded members
that currently, 10 percent is required statewide, from 27 out of
40 House districts. In response to a question, she confirmed
that one of the changes proposed by [HB 213 and HJR 25] would
require that 30 out of 40 House districts be represented.
CHAIR ROKEBERG mentioned he does have concerns regarding the
information that Representative Berkowitz presented, and asked
that the case citations be provided to the committee. Chair
Rokeberg closed the public hearing on HJR 25, and asked Mr.
Ruaro to state for the record what the purpose of HB 213 is.
MR. RUARO explained that HB 213 merely provides conforming
amendments to the statute should HJR 25 be adopted at the next
general election.
Number 0837
CHAIR ROKEBERG closed the public hearing on HB 213, and
announced that HB 213 and HJR 25 would be held over.
HB 281 - CIVIL LIABILITY FOR PROVIDING ALCOHOL
Number 0833
CHAIR ROKEBERG announced that the committee would return to the
hearing on HOUSE BILL NO. 281, "An Act relating to civil
liability for providing alcoholic beverages to a person under 21
years of age; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0800
MATT WILLIAMS, Officer, Anchorage Police Department (APD),
testified via teleconference in support of HB 281. He said that
the APD feels very strongly that having this sort of recourse
available to victims of alcohol-related violence is essential in
helping people get through difficult situations. Providing for
the same "amount of liability" for all parties, regardless of
whether they are licensees, closes the loophole for private
citizens who furnish alcohol to minors. He noted that the
statements which he made in the House Labor and Commerce
Standing Committee are still applicable, and that the APD
supports passage of HB 281.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER asked Mr. Williams whether he had any
indication of how often adults provide alcohol to minors.
MR. WILLIAMS said: "Quite a bit. Now, ... somebody being
arrested, and somebody being prosecuted, and somebody being
convicted - that's another story." But almost every night, he
added, there are reports of kids waiting in [liquor store]
parking lots and of kids approaching adults to buy alcohol for
them. It is a big problem that needs to be addressed in some
manner other than the criminal realm; private citizens need to
be held to a standard that makes them more accountable, he
opined. In response to questions regarding public awareness, he
confirmed that "word gets around," and he relayed that it
already has to some extent because of public announcements made
during the Justin Wollam Substation dedication.
Number 0541
MARTI GREESON, Executive Director, Anchorage Chapter, Mothers
Against Drunk Driving (MADD), said simply that MADD supports HB
281 as one of the tools that restores justice, and she noted
that MADD is willing to work on the issue of public education.
Number 0457
CATHIE MAURO testified via teleconference and noted that when
she first approached Representative Halcro in August, she was
very concerned because the penalty for adults who provide
alcohol to minors was still a misdemeanor, even when an ensuing
accident results in death or injury. She relayed that at the
time, she was not sure how she felt about the concept of
imposing civil liabilities for that type of offense, but added
that Representative Halcro assured her that the quickest way to
get peoples' attention is through "their pocket books." She
explained:
In going through this process - as a mother who lost
her daughter, Heidi Weilbacher, in the accident July
9th, [2001] - I have come across things I have never,
ever in my life thought I would come across as far as
the expenses of just incredible stuff. There's ...
the funeral expenses: the funeral home, the cemetery,
the church, the flowers. And then to find out a month
down the road, I need an estate attorney, and that's a
$2,000 down payment. I'm thinking, "Why do I need an
estate attorney for a 14-year-old girl that had $4.75
in her pocket?" This didn't make any sense to me, but
then I found out I had to hire an insurance attorney
also. This was another cost that blew me away. Then
I found out that I had to run an ad in the Alaska
Journal of Congress for three weeks straight about the
death of my daughter, in case she owed anybody some
money. That cost me another $350.
It's these things that just keep cropping up that
[are] just unbelievable to me. And now that the
criminal has been sentenced, I will be able to get a
copy of the police investigation report, which I have
not been able to get until sentencing, ... [and] which
was done just a little bit ago. ... For that report,
it's going to cost me $135. And this is just eight
months into this; ... you see where I'm going: I
(indisc.) this bill fully. And I will do anything for
you [Representative Meyer], and the rest of the group,
to make this happen. I appreciate you waiting on us
today, and your time and effort on this. Thank you.
Number 0212
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER told Ms. Mauro that the committee
appreciates her testimony on this issue.
MS. MAURO thanked Representative Meyer for his support and
encouragement.
CHAIR ROKEBERG noted that seven members of the Wollam family
were observing the meeting from the Anchorage Legislative
Information Office (LIO), and he extended the committee's
condolences to the Wollam family for their loss. He also said:
Hopefully, the actions of the legislature and the
people of the state of Alaska will reinforce their
feelings that people care up here, and are seeking to
right, as much as we can, the wrongs that have been
foisted on them, and endeavor to keep other people
from suffering as much as they have.
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ, in response to questions, said he
would like to work with the sponsor to see if they could find a
way of addressing the issues raised.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER asked if it would be possible to change the
standard from strictly liable to just [simple liability].
TAPE 02-20, SIDE A
Number 0001
MIKE FORD, Attorney, Legislative Counsel, Legal and Research
Services Division, Legislative Affairs Agency, opined that it
would be possible to craft HB 281 in such a way as to retain
strict liability for licensees while providing for a negligent
standard of civil liability for nonlicensees. He also said it
would be possible to retain "knowingly" with such a change. He
surmised that one of the prime reasons for this legislation is
deterrence; "You want to deter people from giving alcohol to
minors, and under either standard I think you would achieve
that." Strict liability is usually reserved for only those
things that have great social consequences, he explained. He
referred to the example of an oil spill: "If you spill oil in
our waters, you're liable whether you intended to do so or not,
and that's an example of something that has grave consequences
to it, so we're just not even going to worry about your intent."
He added, however, that "because the existing rule is no civil
liability for nonlicensees," by going to a negligent standard,
another exception is created, which, he posited, would deter
people from providing alcohol to minors.
CHAIR ROKEBERG remarked, however, that the "elements of proof
and so forth" would change significantly if the standard were
changed to negligence.
MR. FORD agreed.
CHAIR ROKEBERG surmised, then, that if the defendant had a
reasonable excuse, he/she might not be found negligent, because
that would be harder to prove, whereas with a strict liability
standard, such an excuse would not make any difference.
MR. FORD agreed. He also pointed out that by adopting even a
negligent standard of civil liability for nonlicensees, it is
more than is currently provided for in statute. He surmised
that the question before the committee is whether to adopt a
higher standard or a lower standard.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked whether, under civil law, "knowingly"
can be proven simply by a preponderance of the evidence, which,
he opined, is a lower standard than under criminal law.
MR. FORD clarified that there are two parts to "this." One is,
what does knowingly mean; there is a definition of knowingly in
the statute. "But as to how you show that - correct - it's a
preponderance issue"; it's not beyond a reasonable doubt as is
required under criminal law, he added.
CHAIR ROKEBERG asked whether the changes proposed by HB 281
would still fall under Title 4 if the standard were changed to
negligent.
MR. FORD said it would because Title 4 pertains to alcohol and
crimes involving alcohol.
Number 0429
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER, referring again to the example of a family
social gathering, reiterated that the key word is "knowingly".
Adults at a party should be held liable if they knowingly allow
access to alcohol or give alcohol to underage guests who then
leave the gathering and cause death, injury, or damage to
property, he opined.
CHAIR ROKEBERG surmised that the adults, by allowing access,
would be held negligent for failing to monitor the alcohol.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he supports the intent of the sponsor,
and suggested that if HB 281 were held over, a solution to the
question of which standard to use could be arrived at
expeditiously.
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL opined that "strictly liable" gives no
room for motive and yet "knowingly" is included in the language.
CHAIR ROKEBERG noted that he would like to hear from some
personal injury attorneys regarding this issue.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES noted that she has concerns about the
tendency to blame someone for any ensuing tragedy but not hold
that person responsible if nothing bad results from his/her
actions.
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER said that while his original intention was
to hold the general public to the same high standard as
licensees, he had not yet checked into the issue of liability
insurance.
Number 0790
CHAIR ROKEBERG announced that HB 281 would be held over, and
suggested that the sponsor consult some personal injury
attorneys on the issues of standards and personal liability
insurance.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 0850
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Judiciary Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:50 p.m.
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