Legislature(1993 - 1994)

01/14/1994 01:15 PM House JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                        January 14, 1994                                       
                            1:15 p.m.                                          
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
  Rep. Brian Porter, Chairman                                                  
  Rep. Jeannette James, Vice-Chair (arrived later)                             
  Rep. Pete Kott                                                               
  Rep. Gail Phillips (arrived later)                                           
  Rep. Joe Green                                                               
  Rep. Cliff Davidson (arrived later)                                          
  Rep. Jim Nordlund                                                            
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
  HB 247:   "An Act changing the frequency of                                  
            certain state inspections of weights and                           
            measures and relating to the issuance of                           
            citations for weights and measures                                 
            NOT HEARD - PULLED FROM CALENDAR                                   
  HB 280:   "An Act adopting the Uniform Custodial                             
            Trust Act."                                                        
            PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS                         
  SB 45:    "An Act relating to persons under 21                               
            years of age; relating to programs for                             
            runaway minors; providing for                                      
            designation of shelters  for runaway                               
            minors; relating to the detention and                              
            incarceration of minors."                                          
            PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS                         
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
  KAREN BRAND                                                                  
  Legislative Aide                                                             
  Rep. Carl Moses                                                              
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  Capitol, Room 204                                                            
  Juneau, Alaska  99811                                                        
  Phone:  465-4451                                                             
  Position Statement:  Testified on behalf of the Prime                        
                       of HB 280.                                              
  ART PETERSON                                                                 
  Attorney in Private Practice                                                 
  Uniform Law Commissioner for Alaska                                          
  350 N. Franklin                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                        
  Phone:  586-4000                                                             
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 280.                         
  BOB BERRYHILL                                                                
  Alaska Association of Retired People                                         
  157 Behrends Avenue                                                          
  Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                        
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 280.                         
  JERRY BURNETT                                                                
  Legislative Aide                                                             
  Senator Randy Phillips' Office                                               
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  Capitol, Room 103                                                            
  Juneau, Alaska  99811                                                        
  Phone:  465-4949                                                             
  Position Statement:  Testified on behalf of the Prime                        
                       Sponsor of SB 45.                                       
  PAT O'BRIEN                                                                  
  Division of Family and Youth Services                                        
  Department of Health & Social Services                                       
  P.O. Box 110630                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska  99811-0630                                                   
  Phone:  465-2145                                                             
  Position Statement:  Testified regarding SB 45.                              
  DONNA M. SCHULTZ                                                             
  Division of Family and Youth Services                                        
  Department of Health & Social Services                                       
  P.O. Box 110630                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska  99811-0630                                                   
  Phone:  465-2112                                                             
  Position Statement:  To answer questions on behalf of the                    
                       Department on SB 45.                                    
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
  BILL:  HB 247                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): LABOR & COMMERCE                                                 
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  03/22/93       732    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  03/22/93       732    (H)   L&C, JUDICIARY                                   
  03/30/93              (H)   L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 17                       
  03/30/93              (H)   MINUTE(L&C)                                      
  03/31/93       873    (H)   L&C RPT  4DP  2NR                                
  03/31/93       873    (H)   DP: MULDER, HUDSON, SITTON,                      
  03/31/93       873    (H)   NR: WILLIAMS, PORTER                             
  03/31/93       873    (H)   -ZERO FISCAL NOTE  (DCED)                        
  03/31/93       873    (H)   REFERRED TO JUDICIARY                            
  01/14/94              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
  BILL:  HB 280                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: UNIFORM CUSTODIAL TRUST ACT                                     
  SPONSOR(S): RULES                                                            
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  04/08/93      1110    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  04/08/93      1111    (H)   STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY                         
  04/20/93      1351    (H)   STA RPT  4DP 2NR                                 
  04/20/93      1351    (H)   DP: B.DAVIS, ULMER, SANDERS,                     
  04/20/93      1351    (H)   NR: VEZEY, KOTT                                  
  04/20/93      1351    (H)   -2 ZERO FISCAL NOTES (LAW,                       
  04/20/93              (H)   STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102                      
  04/20/93              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  01/14/94              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
  BILL:  SB  45                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: MISC. LAWS RELATING TO MINORS                                   
  SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) PHILLIPS,Halford,Kelly,Miller,Leman,                  
  Sharp;REPRESENTATIVE(S) Kott                                                 
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/13/93        53    (S)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/13/93        53    (S)   HES, FINANCE                                     
  03/05/93              (S)   HES AT 01:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM                   
  03/05/93              (S)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  03/19/93              (S)   HES AT 01:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM                   
  03/22/93       894    (S)   HES RPT CS  1DP 5NR NEW TITLE                    
  03/22/93       894    (S)   FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS (DHSS)                    
  03/22/93       894    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS                      
  04/07/93              (S)   FIN AT 09:00 AM SENATE FINANCE                   
  04/10/93              (S)   FIN AT 10:00 AM SENATE FINANCE                   
  04/10/93              (S)   MINUTE(FIN)                                      
  04/13/93      1331    (S)   FIN RPT  CS  5DP 2NR NEW TITLE                   
  04/13/93      1332    (S)   FISCAL NOTES (DHSS, COURT)                       
  04/13/93      1332    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DPS)                           
  04/13/93      1332    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FNS (LAW, LABOR)                   
  04/13/93              (S)   MINUTE(FIN)                                      
  04/16/93              (S)   MINUTE(RLS)                                      
  04/19/93      1482    (S)   RULES CS   3CAL 1DNP NEW TITLE                   
  04/19/93      1482    (S)   PREVIOUS FNS APPLY TO CS (DHSS,                  
  04/19/93      1482    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FNS APPLY                          
  04/19/93      1546    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                             
  04/19/93      1546    (S)   RLS  CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                     
  04/19/93      1547    (S)   AM NO  1     WITHDRAWN                           
  04/19/93      1547    (S)   RETURN TO RLS  COMMITTEE UNAN                    
  04/20/93              (S)   MINUTE(RLS)                                      
  04/21/93      1613    (S)   RULES   3CAL 1DNP W/O AM                         
  04/21/93      1620    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                             
  04/21/93      1621    (S)   AM NO  2     FAILED  Y10 N10                     
  04/21/93      1629    (S)   AM NO  3     FAILED  Y8 N12                      
  04/21/93      1630    (S)   ADVANCE TO THIRD READING FAILED                  
                              Y11 N9                                           
  04/21/93      1630    (S)   THIRD READING 4/22 CALENDAR                      
  04/22/93      1673    (S)   READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 45(RLS)                 
  04/22/93      1673    (S)   PASSED Y12 N8                                    
  04/22/93      1674    (S)   EFFECTIVE DATE FAILED Y12 N8                     
  04/22/93      1674    (S)   ELLIS  NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION                 
  04/23/93      1716    (S)   RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP                     
  04/23/93      1717    (S)   TRANSMITTED TO (H) CSSB
                              45(FIN)(EFD FLD)                                 
  04/24/93      1487    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  04/24/93      1487    (H)   JUDICIARY, FINANCE                               
  05/05/93              (H)   FIN AT 01:00 PM HOUSE FIN 519                    
  05/06/93      1674    (H)   CROSS SPONSOR(S):  KOTT                          
  05/06/93              (H)   FIN AT 00:01 AM HOUSE FIN 519                    
  05/07/93              (H)   FIN AT 06:00 PM HOUSE FIN 519                    
  05/08/93              (H)   FIN AT 08:30 AM HOUSE FIN 519                    
  05/09/93              (H)   FIN AT 09:00 AM HOUSE FIN 519                    
  05/10/93              (H)   FIN AT 08:30 AM HOUSE FIN 519                    
  05/11/93              (H)   FIN AT 09:00 AM HOUSE FIN 519                    
  01/12/94              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
  01/12/94              (H)   MINUTE(JUD)                                      
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
  TAPE 94-3, SIDE A                                                            
  Number 000                                                                   
  The House Judiciary Standing Committee meeting was called to                 
  order at 1:17 p.m. on January 14, 1994.  A quorum was                        
  present.  Chairman Porter announced that Rep. Phillips would                 
  be late due to another meeting.                                              
  HB 247 - WEIGHTS & MEASURES: INSPECTIONS/CITATIONS                           
  Number 045                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked the committee to not hear HB 247 and                   
  to hear HB 280 last.  He said HB 247 is a simple weights and                 
  measures bill that takes a biannual inspection and makes it                  
  an annual inspection.  He stated that the reason for not                     
  hearing the bill is because the identical Senate bill has                    
  already passed the Senate and is being heard in House                        
  Transportation, and it did not even receive a Judiciary                      
  referral.  There was no objections to pulling HB 247 from                    
  the calendar.                                                                
  HB 280 - UNIFORM CUSTODIAL TRUST ACT                                         
  Number 085                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER moved on to HB 280 and invited Art Peterson                  
  to testify.                                                                  
  Number 086                                                                   
  ART PETERSON, an attorney in private practice, and Uniform                   
  Law Commissioner for Alaska, asked that KAREN BRAND testify                  
  Number 090                                                                   
  KAREN BRAND, legislative aide to Representative Carl Moses,                  
  prime sponsor of HB 280, testified on the basic definition                   
  of a trust, defined as the care and management of property                   
  or funds by a person or a bank for someone else.  She                        
  informed the committee that, if enacted, the bill would not                  
  change any existing law, but would add a new section to the                  
  Uniform Custodial Trust Act (UCTA), which makes the benefits                 
  of trusts available to everyone in Alaska.  She said there                   
  are four basic benefits of the trust.  First, trusts will be                 
  inexpensive to create.  Second, the trust is simple to                       
  create by basically setting forth a set of guidelines that                   
  can be easily filled out.  The third characteristic is                       
  control, whereby under the UCTA the control remains with the                 
  individual setting up the trust, at which time if the                        
  individual becomes incapacitated, the trust will take over                   
  and care for and manage the assets.  She continued by saying                 
  the last characteristic is that the trust is comprehensive,                  
  including physical property, stocks, bonds, intangibles and                  
  other financial assets.                                                      
  MS. BRAND said the adoption of the UCTA would benefit all                    
  Alaskans, as well as anyone who anticipates being                            
  incapacitated at some time and wants to be assured their                     
  belongings will be properly cared for in the manner that                     
  they had set out.  Ms. Brand said the most likely users                      
  would be senior citizens and persons leaving the country                     
  temporarily.  She stated the UCTA had been adopted in seven                  
  other states and was introduced in the 17th Alaska                           
  Legislature, voted out of the House unanimously, but due to                  
  a lack of time did not get a hearing in the Senate.                          
  Number 185                                                                   
  REP. GREEN asked how would UCTA affect customary method of                   
  leaving things through a will.                                               
  Number 195                                                                   
  MS. BRAND said that it was her understanding that if an                      
  individual set up a trust and a will, if the trust says that                 
  certain property will be removed from the estate and cared                   
  for or managed in a particular way, then it would come out                   
  of the estate first, then the will would dispose of the rest                 
  of the property as the will deems.  She further said that if                 
  someone has both a trust and a will, they can put in the                     
  will that in case of death, the trust is abolished.                          
  Number 210                                                                   
  REP. GREEN asked, If you could do this through trust, would                  
  you need a will?                                                             
  Number 219                                                                   
  MS. BRAND said the main purpose of the UCTA was for someone                  
  who anticipates being incapacitated for a time.  She said                    
  she believes the main focus is that and not for death.  It                   
  will care for assets if death occurs, but the focus is                       
  Number 238                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON commented that this type of trust was one means                 
  of avoiding some of the complications of probate, so as you                  
  take the assets of whatever part of your assets you want to                  
  designate and put in this trust, that's out of the estate                    
  that would go under your general will.  You can create the                   
  beneficiary of the trust as yourself or someone else, so                     
  it's extremely flexible.  Mr. Peterson continued, saying                     
  that if you create it for the benefit of someone else, you                   
  are then going outside of the probate system, thus avoiding                  
  the expense, the delay and complications of probate.  He                     
  said it is essentially the best of both worlds.                              
  Number 258                                                                   
  REP. GREEN commented that maybe this is a good vehicle;                      
  however, he thought it was temporary, and asked if it could                  
  be made permanent.                                                           
  Number 266                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON responded, yes, although he would not                           
  characterize it as having a higher strength, but many see it                 
  as another way of dealing with your assets.                                  
  Number 275                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER summarized by saying you could use this as a                 
  will and set it up to function that way.                                     
  Number 285                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON added one point to Chairman Porter's statement,                 
  saying that just as you can give something to a son or                       
  daughter or friend right now, thus depleting the amount of                   
  your estate, you could create a trust that would have that                   
  trust based on some contingency, incapacitation, death, and                  
  a whole range of things that can be handled by this type of                  
  Number 300                                                                   
  REP. JAMES raised a question about the competency of the                     
  individual given the trusteeship, and asked if there was a                   
  provision in the bill addressing what to do if the                           
  individual is not competent.                                                 
  Number 316                                                                   
  MS. BRAND replied that the owner, the person that sets up                    
  the trust, when they set up the trust, whoever they choose                   
  to be the manager, and if at some point the owner doesn't                    
  think the manager is capable of managing the trust in the                    
  way initially intended, then the owner can certainly change                  
  that.  Ms. Brand said that the owner can change the                          
  beneficiary or the person managing the assets at any time                    
  until the owner becomes incapacitated.                                       
  Number 330                                                                   
  REP. JAMES clarified for Ms. Brand the question she was                      
  asking which was, Is there any protection for the ability of                 
  the person setting up the trust over the person caring out                   
  the trust?                                                                   
  Number 341                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON answered that he didn't know precisely, but he                  
  thought it would be subject to the same kind of challenge                    
  for incapacity.  He said related to that is the fact that                    
  someone, a creditor for example... if an individual wanted                   
  to set up a trust, but became incapacitated first, under                     
  Section 40 that creditor could put his/her debt to the                       
  individual in a custodial trust, and if it's over $20,000                    
  (an arbitrarily selected figure) then it has to go to court                  
  to prove that you are indeed incapacitated and this is                       
  something that will protect your assets, etc.                                
  MR. PETERSON continued that his explanation was a related                    
  answer, but he would have to check this again to make sure                   
  how the statute deals with it.                                               
  Number 364                                                                   
  REP. JAMES indicated that her concern related to an                          
  individual being partially incapacitated and finding                         
  somebody to administer it, but if someone convinced the                      
  individual to set up the trust when the individual was                       
  partially incapacitated, you wouldn't know about it until it                 
  was too late whether the individual was in sound mind when                   
  they set up the trust.  Rep. James said she didn't want to                   
  set up a condition whereby someone could be misused.                         
  Number 380                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON responded that the whole thrust of this act is                  
  to protect that person, but if someone is taking advantage                   
  of that person and the person really is incapacitated, then                  
  that would be subject to attack whether the bill provides                    
  for it or whether that's thrown back to common law, the                      
  general concept of law, he could not answer.                                 
  Number 389                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER indicated that he believed the same scenario                 
  could be used for power-of-attorney, and an unscrupulous                     
  person could go to a senior citizen, and does, but a                         
  relative or other interested parties could challenge that                    
  Number 395                                                                   
  REP. GREEN commented that the legislation doesn't provide                    
  for witnessing, which might be construed as a little loose.                  
  He also asked, If the trustee changes their mind in the                      
  interim, does the trustee have to carry out their duties?                    
  Number 414                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON pointed out Section 30, which sets out the                      
  statutory form that tells the receipt and acceptance of the                  
  custodial trustee so that a person could not be forced to be                 
  a trustee.                                                                   
  Number 425                                                                   
  REP. GREEN asked about the part about witnessing.                            
  Number 430                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON indicated that it does not have to be                           
  witnessed, it's supposed to be kept simple.  He also stated                  
  that the scenario brought up by Rep. James would be just a                   
  tiny percentage of cases, because in virtually all instances                 
  the person is going to be in full capacity and in fact, is                   
  naming himself or herself as beneficiary.  The typical                       
  benefit is for the individual setting up the trust.                          
  Number 435                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said the main emphasis is to be able to use                  
  your assets for your benefit while you're alive but                          
  Number 444                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON said he wanted to put a few comments on the                     
  record.  He said he strongly supported the bill and wanted                   
  to mention that he had additional material, including the                    
  Uniform Law Commissioners pamphlet, which was in the members                 
  packet.  Mr. Peterson continued by saying the whole point of                 
  HB 280 was to make it cheap, make it simple, easy to create,                 
  easy to manage, can be used to avoid probate, can be used in                 
  a variety of ways, and sets up the framework by giving                       
  language for the trust, giving language for the acceptance                   
  by the trustee, has provision telling the duties of the                      
  trustee, the consequences of various kinds of acts so people                 
  can easily refer to it and not have to pay lawyers, bankers,                 
  etc. to devise some complicated trust system.                                
  Number 482                                                                   
  REP. JAMES asked about the taxability of the trust.                          
  Number 488                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON answered that if it was income producing                        
  property, then a tax return would have to be filed with that                 
  income included.                                                             
  Number 490                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was a national commission                     
  similar to the state commission.                                             
  Number 503                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON replied that the full name was the National                     
  Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws, which was                 
  the formal and official name, but it has recently been                       
  shortened to Uniform Law Commissioners.  He said each state                  
  appoints its own group of commissioners, usually a                           
  gubernatorial appointment, as it is in Alaska.                               
  Number 525                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if Mr. Peterson participated in                        
  national meetings.                                                           
  Number 528                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON said he does, at the national annual meeting,                   
  and a number of committees of the organization meet                          
  throughout the year.                                                         
  Number 559                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND said he wanted it on the record that he                        
  supports the legislation, and he commended Mr. Peterson for                  
  his work, which was mainly pro-bono.                                         
  Number 569                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON also commended the legal community for its                     
  participation in pro-bono work.  He asked, If a trustee is                   
  removed for malfeasance, what recourse is there against the                  
  Number 590                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON referred to Section 140 and 150 which address                   
  the issue.  He said he was not an expert in this specific                    
  area, but the trustee duties are subject to a fiduciary                      
  obligation, and if the trustee fails to perform that or does                 
  something fraudulent, then that would be subject to, 1)                      
  criminal action, and 2) termination of the trustee                           
  responsibility by a court.  Mr. Peterson said he could not                   
  tell the committee that it would be automatic, because it                    
  would probably have to go to court.                                          
  REP. DAVIDSON asked if there might be areas that are less                    
  than secure for the beneficiaries.                                           
  Number 614                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON responded that he couldn't answer because of                    
  his own unfamiliarity with it, but the bill sets out a tight                 
  set of obligations by the trustee.  He said that if you are                  
  talking about children of the beneficiary, they would have                   
  to go to court to terminate the role of the trustee.                         
  Number 625                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON said he was just wondering about safeguards                    
  for minors.                                                                  
  Number 630                                                                   
  MR. PETERSON explained that the intent has been to provide                   
  all the safeguards necessary and the gap is in his own                       
  knowledge, not in the bill itself.                                           
  Number 637                                                                   
  BOB BERRYHILL, representing the Alaska Association of                        
  Retired Persons, testified in favor of HB 280.                               
  Number 647                                                                   
  REP. JAMES moved for passage of HB 280 with individual                       
  CHAIRMAN PORTER, hearing no objections, declared HB 280                      
  passed from the committee with individual recommendations.                   
  He then brought SB 45 to the table.                                          
  SB 45 - MISC. LAWS RELATING TO MINORS                                        
  Number 690                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked for amendments to SB 45.                               
  Number 702                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND asked if the CS had been adopted.                              
  Number 706                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked for a motion.                                          
  Number 710                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND objected, saying he favored the original.                      
  Number 730                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER entertained a motion to move the CS and                      
  asked for a roll call vote:                                                  
  Rep. Davidson  no                  Rep. Green     yes                        
  Rep. Kott      yes                 Rep. Nordlund  no                         
  Rep. James     yes                 Rep. Porter    yes                        
  The MOTION was ADOPTED and the committee substitute was                      
  brought before the committee for consideration.                              
  REP. NORDLUND offered Amendment No. 1 , which would eliminate                 
  sections one and two, the purpose and intent sections of the                 
  bill.  He said that purpose and intent sections don't stay                   
  in permanent law, and in this case, the purpose section only                 
  explains two sections of a long, complicated bill, which is                  
  misleading.  Rep. Nordlund said either write a purpose                       
  section which explains what SB 45 does, or don't have it at                  
  Number 782                                                                   
  JERRY BURNETT, Legislative Aide to Senator Randy Phillips,                   
  Prime Sponsor of SB 45, agreed with Rep. Nordlund's                          
  amendment and said the sponsor had no significant objection                  
  with the amendment.                                                          
  Number 791                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked the committee to consider another                      
  issue involving emancipation which may subject a juvenile to                 
  criminal sanctions as an adult.  He said that in statute the                 
  definition of majority allows that all the privileges and                    
  liabilities of an adult accrue to someone who has reached                    
  the age of majority, and another section says emancipation                   
  provides majority.  Chairman Porter suggested that the                       
  committee put under Section 3 that it was not the intention                  
  (as it relates to Sections 3 through 8) of this legislation                  
  to approve adult responsibility for criminal actions, unless                 
  otherwise defined by law.                                                    
  REP. NORDLUND told the committee the amendment was in the                    
  wrong place and that it would not be put in statute.                         
  Number 820                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that we will lose it in the law,                   
  but won't lose it when the court is reviewing the                            
  legislation to see what it meant.  He went on to say that                    
  that's the reason for the amendment, so there is something                   
  formally on record besides the minutes for the courts to                     
  look at to see what it was the legislature was trying to do                  
  when passing the legislation.  Chairman Porter indicated                     
  that he had spoken to Dean Guaneli, Criminal Division,                       
  Department of Law, at length on this, and it's unclear                       
  because no one has ever tried to treat an emancipated                        
  juvenile as an adult for the purposes of prosecution.  He                    
  added that there isn't any specific prohibition, so that's                   
  why, from the intent standpoint, it's important to let the                   
  courts know that wasn't the intent.                                          
  REP. NORDLUND asked to hear the opinion of Legal Services.                   
  Number 846                                                                   
  DONNA M. SCHULTZ, Associate Coordinator, Division of Family                  
  and Youth Services, asked about Section 9, where the                         
  committee was going to put in the piece about being under 19                 
  years of age and having the disability of minor removed for                  
  general purposes under this.  She said she understood that                   
  to mean contributing to the delinquency of a minor.  She                     
  followed by asking if the committee is looking at intent by                  
  not being treated as adults, and asked if this section was                   
  in conflict.                                                                 
  TAPE 94-3, SIDE B                                                            
  Number 000                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said it would not specifically allow that.                   
  Number 028                                                                   
  JERRY BURNETT added that juveniles can be charged with the                   
  same crimes as adults in most cases.                                         
  Number 035                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that this does not relate to                       
  juveniles, it just means they have committed the offense,                    
  and having committed the offense, they would be treated as a                 
  juvenile.  He concluded that the crime establishes the                       
  offense, but not the jurisdiction.                                           
  Number 047                                                                   
  REP. JAMES asked if it didn't mean that the legislation                      
  lines them out, that a person contributing to the                            
  delinquency of a minor is a person that is over 19, or a                     
  person under 19 if they are considered adults.  She said it                  
  does give them an adult status under that situation.                         
  Number 056                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER replied that it does not; it enhances the                    
  law that now says a person being 19 years of age or older                    
  commits the crime of contributing to the delinquency of a                    
  minor if, but what the legislation is saying is that you                     
  still will have committed that offense, which otherwise you                  
  would not have been able to commit whether you were an adult                 
  of 18 or an emancipated minor at 17 or below.  Chairman                      
  Porter said that the jurisdiction of the court that would                    
  deal with the individual, if the individual committed that                   
  offense, would still be guided by age.                                       
  Number 090                                                                   
  REP. JAMES went back to the issue of purpose or no purpose,                  
  and commented that if the purpose was there to explain the                   
  whole thing, then it should explain the whole thing.  She                    
  said she really does see a benefit in having a purpose in                    
  legislation.  She said that she had seen in statutes some                    
  abbreviated amount of purpose to more fully explain the                      
  statute.  She added that sometimes it's not possible to                      
  fully explain the bill in the text.                                          
  Number 115                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND suggested that if the sponsor or committee                     
  wants to have a purpose, then write it before it gets to the                 
  Finance Committee and offer it as an amendment in Finance.                   
  Number 136                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER replied that was a very good alternative to                  
  what the committee had discussed, and if it was agreeable to                 
  the committee, then the committee would do that.                             
  Number 180                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND offered Amendment No. 1 .                                       
  Number 172                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that he thought the statement purpose                   
  was given in lieu of Amendment No. 1 and that the committee                  
  had agreed that an amendment would be offered in Finance                     
  incorporating an entire statement of purpose for the entire                  
  Number 180                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND said he thought the committee had stripped the                 
  purpose section and it would go to Finance without any                       
  purpose section and it would be reintroduced at that time.                   
  Number 185                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that was fine, and entertained a                   
  AMENDMENT NO. 1 PASSED WITHOUT OBJECTION.                                    
  Number 193                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND introduced Amendment No. 2, which he said                      
  would in no way radically alter the attempt of the                           
  emancipation sections of the bill, and the legislation would                 
  still allow for custodian to initiate petition to begin the                  
  emancipation process.  But in Section 8, before the court                    
  could actually issue an order for emancipation, they would                   
  have to get on the record consent from the minor that the                    
  minor does want to be emancipated.  He said this would be a                  
  safeguard in the legislation so that the parent isn't taking                 
  the kid out of the home when the kid isn't ready for that,                   
  and it might in some way help the parent and child come                      
  together, and if the child is confronted with this, he/she                   
  might decide to move back in the house.                                      
  Number 234                                                                   
  REP. KOTT objected to the amendment for the purpose of                       
  hearing the sponsor's position on the amendment.                             
  Number 236                                                                   
  JERRY BURNETT said that the problem the sponsor has with                     
  this is if there is a case where the minor would refuse                      
  consent where the judge might otherwise find it's in the                     
  best interest of every one involved, including the minor.                    
  Mr. Burnett said the minor might refuse for some other                       
  reason, and that might not lead to a good result.                            
  Number 258                                                                   
  REP. JAMES responded the petition was being filed by the                     
  minor, so this wouldn't be applicable.                                       
  Number 268                                                                   
  MR. BURNETT replied that an alternative whereby the parents                  
  or legal guardians could file was also language in SB 45.                    
  Number 274                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND said generally it's not good to see minors                     
  emancipated before 18 years of age; however, allowing the                    
  parents to file was a good addition to the law, assuming the                 
  minor would agree it's a good idea.                                          
  REP. DAVIDSON stated he agrees with the amendment, because                   
  he would rather err on behalf of the child, and doesn't see                  
  any situations where this would be a problem.  He also said                  
  he thought one last effort to get some sort of agreement                     
  between the parent and child was not a bad investment.  He                   
  added that he was afraid the law would make it too easy on                   
  the parents to abdicate responsibility on behalf of their                    
  Number 320                                                                   
  REP. JAMES commented that any court making a decision                        
  without determining that the minor gives permission, and                     
  even putting the amendment in there is not necessary,                        
  although it doesn't hurt to have it in there.  She said she                  
  tried to imagine a dispute between a child and legal                         
  guardian, and couldn't believe that being the case, that the                 
  court wouldn't find out from that child what the child                       
  Number 238                                                                   
  REP. GREEN noted that the parents don't have to consent for                  
  emancipation in the first section of the bill, but the                       
  amendment would require the child to consent, and he                         
  wondered if the committee should add that both parties have                  
  to consent.                                                                  
  Number 350                                                                   
  MR. BURNETT said that Section 6 does require parental                        
  consent unless the court finds it in the best interest of                    
  the minor, and that it would be perfectly reasonable to put                  
  the same language in with regard to the minor, where if the                  
  court finds the minor to unreasonably withhold consent, the                  
  court acting in the best interest in the minor may waive the                 
  Number 370                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said he was going to speak against the                       
  amendment, but Mr. Burnett's suggestion placates his problem                 
  with it.  Chairman Porter further stated that this is                        
  supposed to be an opportunity for the parents, but if this                   
  provision says the minor has to consent unless the court                     
  overrides the decision, then he would agree with the                         
  Number 388                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND said he would consider that a friendly                         
  amendment to the amendment.                                                  
  Number 399                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER agreed and said the committee staff would                    
  work on the language to see that it's correct.                               
  REP. NORDLUND stated that the committee could add the                        
  language and pass it out without his seeing it prior to the                  
  Number 418                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND offered Amendment No. 3 , which he said under                   
  the current version of SB 45, the officer is allowed the                     
  discretion in terms of bringing the child back to the legal                  
  custodian, a shelter, or DFYS, and the concern is that you                   
  don't want to return a child back to an abusive home.  He                    
  said that the amendment is added language to ensure that                     
  doesn't happen.                                                              
  Number 443                                                                   
  REP. GREEN concurred with Mr. Nordlund with the possible                     
  exception of the word "alleged."  He said he was concerned                   
  that a child or youth may use that particular thing to                       
  bypass where he should be.  Rep. Green asked if stronger                     
  language could be added rather than "alleged."                               
  Number 460                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND said he understood the concern and there were                  
  kids out there that use that to get out of situations that                   
  aren't abusive, but he said it is better to err on the side                  
  of safety.                                                                   
  Number 469                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER spoke against the amendment and suggested                    
  passing the amendment with the deletion of "minor, alleges,                  
  or."  Chairman Porter discussed police picking up runaways                   
  and problems relating to the runaway population that                         
  manipulate the system.  He said it requires some degree of                   
  faith in the efficient functioning of law enforcement, but                   
  when you think about it, it's done every day.  Chairman                      
  Porter said he doesn't know of any case in this state where                  
  a police officer has returned a child to an abusive home,                    
  but he knows of many cases where children have used this                     
  allegation as a false accusation against their parents; and                  
  while saying the law should err on the side of the child, at                 
  the same time the law has to be practical.                                   
  Number 508                                                                   
  REP. JAMES replied that she agreed with the Chairman's                       
  statements, and that we don't want to put children back in                   
  abusive homes, but we do have to have some faith in our                      
  officers.  She said the whole problem we have, in this bill,                 
  is providing some sort of safe haven for the homeless and                    
  runaway children, and the goal is to find some sort of safe                  
  place for these people.  She followed up by saying that we                   
  need to be selective, putting those most in need in legal                    
  custody or temporary shelters.                                               
  Number 525                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked what happens when the average officer                    
  picks up a runaway.                                                          
  Number 537                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that under current law the officer has                  
  a conversation with the youth and says here are your                         
  options, you can go home, you can go to DFYS, or you can go                  
  to a shelter.  He said under this scenario the vast majority                 
  don't want to go home, so there isn't a specific question of                 
  why did you run away, rather it most always comes up if the                  
  child is at all talkative.  Chairman Porter added that this                  
  is in the case of an urban community.                                        
  REP. DAVIDSON asked if in most instances the child takes                     
  his/her option with a third party, thus taking the option                    
  out of the home.                                                             
  Number 561                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER answered that if this bill were to pass, it                  
  would provide that this discussion would be different.  He                   
  said the officer would say, I have the ability to take you                   
  home, or to DFYS, or foster care, and why shouldn't I take                   
  you home?  Chairman Porter explained that then the officer                   
  has discretion, and the burden of the level of probable                      
  cause established here is not probable cause, it's                           
  reasonable cause to suspect, which is less.                                  
  Number 593                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked in what circumstance would the officer                   
  have reason to suspect.                                                      
  Number 597                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that there is instruction given to                 
  police officers that gives them an insight into profiling an                 
  abused child, but it's up to the officer to overcome the                     
  suspicion that is created by the allegation before he or she                 
  can take the child home.  Chairman Porter added that the                     
  current system isn't working, which is why we are trying to                  
  fix it through this legislation.  He said that while we                      
  haven't had any cases of returning a juvenile to an abusive                  
  home, the state has had a myriad of cases where the juvenile                 
  is jerking around the parents, and that's what we are trying                 
  to fix.                                                                      
  Number 602                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked another question relating to kids using                  
  the law; and asked, if this legislation will change the law                  
  so they can't use it as easily, then what is the plan to get                 
  to the kids and tell them this option isn't open any more?                   
  Number 610                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that these things easily get                       
  Number 618                                                                   
  REP. JAMES discussed an experience as a foster mother.                       
  Number 647                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON said that just to insert society's enforcers                   
  between parent and child is bad enough, but he knows things                  
  are not all that great out there these days.                                 
  Number 650                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said he thinks that is exactly what the                      
  existing statute is doing; it inserts the enforcers whether                  
  it be the police or DFYS, or whatever, in between the parent                 
  and child.  He added that it seems implicit that a runaway                   
  is not going to go home, and that the intent of this bill is                 
  to reunite parents and children, and if the law functions                    
  against that role, it should be changed.                                     
  REP. DAVIDSON asked, when that is not a viable option, does                  
  HB 45 take an unnecessary run at trying to accomplish that                   
  once again, and who's the expert that recognizes if that's                   
  not a viable option?                                                         
  Number 676                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that what the committee is                         
  discussing within this amendment is giving the hammer back                   
  that the CS is trying to take away.  He said for that reason                 
  he doesn't think this total amendment is appropriate.                        
  Number 685                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND said his amendment takes away the discretion                   
  from the minor.                                                              
  Number 694                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that in all fairness, this amendment                    
  gives it right back, because most all minors will know about                 
  this exception in a matter of months.                                        
  Number 706                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND replied that he's not sure about that, but he                  
  wants to make sure that the system err's on the side of                      
  safety for the kids.  He also said that if the committee                     
  doesn't like the "minor alleges" part, it can be taken out                   
  and the committee can deal with the rest of it.                              
  Number 708                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER moved to amend the amendment by deleting the                 
  words "minor alleges or the."                                                
  Number 717                                                                   
  REP. JAMES opened the discussion on the amendment by saying                  
  she doesn't see the need for it at all because SB 45 will                    
  exercise the officer's discretion.                                           
  Number 741                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked to address the amendment to the                        
  amendment first, and asked if there was any objection to the                 
  amendment to the amendment.  Objection was heard and a roll                  
  call vote was taken, with the following results:                             
  Rep. Green     yes                 Rep. Kott      no                         
  Rep. Nordlund  no                  Rep. Phillips  no                         
  Rep. Davidson  yes                 Rep. James     yes                        
  Rep. Porter    yes                                                           
  Number 794                                                                   
  Chairman Porter announced the committee had Amendment No. 3                  
  as amended before the committee.                                             
  Number 807                                                                   
  The committee discussed Amendment No. 3                                      
  AMENDMENT NO. 3 PASSED WITHOUT OBJECTION.                                    
  REP. NORDLUND pointed out that the committee had not voted                   
  on Amendment No. 2.                                                          
  Number 826                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER entertained a motion to move Amendment No. 2                 
  with the intent of the House Judiciary Committee counsel to                  
  draft it as the committee directed.                                          
  Number 828                                                                   
  AMENDMENT NO. 2 WAS MOVED WITHOUT OBJECTION.                                 
  Number 830                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND introduced Amendment No. 4, which was in                       
  response to concerns expressed about the length of stay in                   
  facilities for minors:  after seven days the minor can stay                  
  in the shelter for another seven days, but after 14 days the                 
  department has to go in there and make sure the kid is being                 
  well taken care of.                                                          
  Number 861                                                                   
  PAT O'BRIEN, Department of Health and Social Services,                       
  Division of Family and Youth Services (DFYS), testified                      
  against the amendment, stating the prohibitive cost, but                     
  agreed it is a concern that should be looked at.                             
  Number 870                                                                   
  DONNA SCHULTZ, DFYS Coordinator, added that most of these                    
  children would not be DFYS clients in the first place, so                    
  they are not clients or charges of DFYS, and so that would                   
  be a concern asking DFYS to perform this services.                           
  TAPE 94-4, SIDE A                                                            
  Number 031                                                                   
  REP. DAVIDSON asked about facilities:  Once they have                        
  received a permit, can the department can make unannounced                   
  Number 039                                                                   
  MS. O'BRIEN replied, yes, the department could.                              
  Number 059                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Ms. O'Brien to expand on the subject                   
  of kids in shelters under the purview of DFYS.                               
  Number 079                                                                   
  MS. O'BRIEN said that only if there is abuse and neglect                     
  does the department get deeply involved and take custody of                  
  that child, and then the department would take custody and                   
  place them into a foster home, or if previously in a runaway                 
  shelter, they would upgrade that to a foster home.  She said                 
  runaways usually fall into a middle category, and they hope                  
  to create something sort of intermediate, but it's not going                 
  to be easy to do.                                                            
  Number 138                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said he understands, but what they are                       
  setting up is a formalized system for an informal treatment                  
  of runaway kids, but there would be no accountability, which                 
  would result in the state not knowing which kid was where,                   
  unless there was a reporting requirement.  Chairman Porter                   
  said he found the reporting language in the legislation to                   
  be wanting and had prepared an amendment to shore it up so                   
  the shelter notifies DFYS, if for no other reason than the                   
  department knows where the child is.                                         
  Number 165                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND indicated he was willing to withdraw Amendment                 
  No. 4, but asked DFYS to come up with an alternate to have                   
  introduced in the Finance Committee.                                         
  Number 203                                                                   
  REP. NORDLUND introduced Amendment No. 5, amending the                       
  liability section, starting on page 10, line 30, in which                    
  the first section is immunity from criminal activities, and                  
  Section B is the immunity for liability from civil                           
  activities.  He said that a safe home is not immune from                     
  liability with his amendment if it violates the provisions                   
  of this law or the regulations that come from it.  He said                   
  it takes the same language that applies to criminal                          
  liability and applies it to civil liability.                                 
  Number 238                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER indicated he didn't have any problem with                    
  the amendment and explained that the immunities offered in                   
  the bill for the non-profits and mid-level certifiers and                    
  the safe homes are not immunities that preclude their                        
  liability for acts or omissions of their own.  He went on to                 
  say they were only offered for the acts of the kids that                     
  they didn't otherwise control.                                               
  Number 249                                                                   
  REP. JAMES discussed liability when there is damage to a                     
  third party, when they are under control of that person, and                 
  asked if the provider was responsible.                                       
  Number 282                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that normal tort law would apply.                  
  Number 299                                                                   
  REP. JAMES asked if the committee was saying that these two                  
  things have nothing to do with the acts of the child, but                    
  only apply to the acts of the people in the safe home.                       
  Number 300                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER replied that it had nothing to do with the                   
  acts of the youth that they could not ordinarily anticipate                  
  or control.                                                                  
  Number 302                                                                   
  REP. JAMES asked who was responsible, and stated that it                     
  would have to go back to the parent.                                         
  Number 312                                                                   
  REP. GREEN asked the committee counsel, if under this                        
  language, would there be any court that would tend to move                   
  towards liability because of this?                                           
  Number 322                                                                   
  DANIELLA LOPER, House Judiciary Counsel, replied that if the                 
  shelter merely shows negligence, then they will not be held                  
  liable.  She discussed the terms reckless and intentional                    
  misconduct and discussed degrees of liability and intent.                    
  Number 311                                                                   
  Number 345                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER offered Amendment No. 6  from DFYS.                           
  Number 359                                                                   
  PAT O'BRIEN, DFYS staff, said the department did not give an                 
  amount for increasing the amount of counseling for runaways                  
  and their families in their fiscal note.  She explained that                 
  as HB 45 had moved through the legislative system, there                     
  were expectations that DFYS would either provide counseling                  
  or provide the money for counseling for runaways and their                   
  families.  Ms. O'Brien said the amendment would formalize                    
  DFYS's plan by adding the concept of availability, and                       
  specifically the change would be on page 7, line 22, and                     
  instead of "counseling services for the custodian and the                    
  minor's household are available," the amendment would change                 
  it to read "may be available under AS 47.10."  Ms. O'Brien                   
  said, in addition, on line 24, "the department shall offer",                 
  DFYS suggests adding the words "available counseling                         
  service..."; and on page 8, line 3, the amendment adds the                   
  word "available" before counseling.  She said the department                 
  simply does not have the funds to be mandated to provide                     
  these services.                                                              
  Number 379                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER agreed that the fiscal note would be quite                   
  large, and said his understanding already was to use                         
  available services.                                                          
  REP. DAVIDSON asked, Since the services wouldn't be                          
  available outside the urban areas, what happens?                             
  Number 383                                                                   
  MS. O'BRIEN replied that DFYS would have to investigate, and                 
  they might use a village peace officer to do a safety check                  
  and find out what's going on, or in the case of medium size                  
  communities, there are often mental health centers, and in                   
  large facilities there are runaway services that offer                       
  mediation to families.  She said DFYS would never do                         
  nothing, but would take whatever services are available                      
  there and let them know what services are available in the                   
  community that they can avail themselves of.                                 
  REP. DAVIDSON asked what level of service would be available                 
  for a child in Bethel in comparison to a child in Anchorage.                 
  Number 411                                                                   
  MS. O'BRIEN said not a whole lot, but DFYS has an office                     
  there and that would give DFYS the opportunity to do this,                   
  even though they are not obligated to do this, but they                      
  might say you have someone out there through either one of                   
  the health organizations or place that you could refer that                  
  child so the child is getting services, or at least are                      
  available and made known to them, but DFYS won't have to                     
  physically do this.                                                          
  Number 460                                                                   
  MS. SCHULTZ added that the department would definitely                       
  assess the child for abuse and neglect issues, or any other                  
  real serious issues, and if those are the case, then a case                  
  would be opened on it and put into their priority system.                    
  Number 475                                                                   
  Number 478                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said he had three amendments starting with                   
  Amendment No. 7, page 2, line 20, regarding one of the                       
  concerns about the criteria for emancipation relating to the                 
  ability for self-support.  He said the amendment adds the                    
  word "sustained self-support."                                               
  Discussion ensued on the concept of "self-support" and the                   
  ability of self-support on a sustained basis throughout the                  
  period of time the minor would have been under the age of                    
  CHAIRMAN PORTER continued with his discussion of Amendment                   
  No. 7, referring to page 12, line 7 and line 27, the                         
  sections dealing with non-profit corporations as the entity                  
  that's licensed.  He cited Sections C and D, saying the                      
  entity named here are the non-profits, and clarified the use                 
  of the word person.                                                          
  Number 478                                                                   
  AMENDMENT NO. 7 PASSED WITH UNANIMOUS CONSENT.                               
  Number 545                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER moved Amendment No. 8, referring to page 5,                  
  lines 2 and 4, which prohibits a minor working after 10:00                   
  p.m. on school nights, unless the minor has graduated from                   
  secondary school.  He explained that the amendment would                     
  take out "without permission of the minor's legal                            
  custodian."  Chairman Porter stated that currently there is                  
  no such provision in the law, and if the legislation                         
  required written permission of a parent, it would cause a                    
  nightmare for businesses.                                                    
  Number 597                                                                   
  MR. BURNETT said the provision was in SB 45 in order to                      
  prevent the child from not going home because of working.                    
  Discussion ensued about child labor laws and the intent of                   
  the committee not to make any changes in that area.                          
  Number 614                                                                   
  CHAIRMAN PORTER discussed the difficulty of enforcing such a                 
  The committee discussed the amendment further.                               
  Number 770                                                                   
  AMENDMENT NO. 8 PASSED WITH NO OBJECTION.                                    
  Number 790                                                                   
  REP. GREEN made a motion to move SB 45 out of committee with                 
  individual recommendations.  There being no objection, it                    
  was so ordered.                                                              
  CHAIRMAN PORTER adjourned the meeting at 4:40 p.m.                           

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