Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/01/1993 01:00 PM JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
                                                                               
               HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                          March 1, 1993                                        
                            1:00 p.m.                                          
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  Rep. Brian Porter, Chairman                                                  
  Rep. Jeannette James, Vice-Chair                                             
  Rep. Gail Phillips                                                           
  Rep. Pete Kott                                                               
  Rep. Joe Green                                                               
  Rep. Jim Nordlund                                                            
  Rep. Cliff Davidson                                                          
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
  None                                                                         
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  HB 99:    "An Act repealing the 65-day time limit for                        
            approval or disapproval of a proposed oil                          
            discharge contingency plan by the Department of                    
            Environmental Conservation; and providing for an                   
            effective date."                                                   
                                                                               
            PASSED OUT WITH A DO PASS RECOMMENDATION                           
                                                                               
  HB 97:    "An Act clarifying the responsibilities of the                     
            Department of Health and Social Services and                       
            parents for children who are committed to the                      
            custody of the department and are placed by the                    
            department with the parents; and providing for an                  
            effective date."                                                   
                                                                               
            PASSED OUT WITH A DO PASS RECOMMENDATION                           
                                                                               
  HB 2:     "An Act requiring drug and alcohol tests for                       
            school bus drivers."                                               
                                                                               
            PASSED OUT WITH A DO PASS RECOMMENDATION                           
            AND A LETTER OF INTENT                                             
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  STEVEN B. PORTER                                                             
  Manager, Permits and Compliance                                              
  ARCO                                                                         
  P.O. Box 100360                                                              
  Anchorage, Alaska 99510                                                      
  Phone:  265-6269                                                             
  Position Statement:  Supported HB 99                                         
                                                                               
  RUSSELL HEATH                                                                
  Executive Director                                                           
  Alaska Environmental Lobby                                                   
  P.O. Box 22151                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska 99802                                                         
  Phone:  463-3366                                                             
  Position Statement:  Supported HB 99                                         
                                                                               
  ELMER LINDSTROM                                                              
  Special Assistant to the Commissioner                                        
  Department of Health and Social Services                                     
  P.O. Box 110601                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska 99811-0601                                                    
  Phone:  465-3030                                                             
  Position Statement:  Supported HB 97                                         
                                                                               
  REP. GAIL PHILLIPS                                                           
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  State Capitol, Room 216                                                      
  Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182                                                    
  Phone:  465-2689                                                             
  Position Statement:  Prime Sponsor of HB 2                                   
                                                                               
  GAYLE HORETSKI                                                               
  Committee Counsel                                                            
  House Judiciary Committee                                                    
  State Capitol, Room 120                                                      
  Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182                                                    
  Phone:  465-4990                                                             
  Position Statement:  Answered questions on HB 2                              
                                                                               
  ROMAYNE KAREEN                                                               
  Pupil Transportation Officer                                                 
  Department of Education                                                      
  801 W. 10th Street, Suite 200                                                
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  465-8652                                                             
  Position Statement:  Answered questions on HB 2                              
                                                                               
  FRANK J. DILLON                                                              
  Executive Director                                                           
  Alaska Trucking Association                                                  
  3443 Minnesota Drive                                                         
  Anchorage, Alaska 99503                                                      
  Phone:  276-1149                                                             
  Position Statement:  Supported HB 2                                          
                                                                               
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB  99                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: REPEAL 65-DAY DEADLINE: OIL SPILL PLANS                         
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON OIL AND GAS                                 
                                                                               
  TITLE: "An Act repealing the 65-day time limit for approval                  
  or disapproval of proposed oil discharge contingency plan by                 
  the Department of Environmental Conservation; and providing                  
  for an effective date."                                                      
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/29/93       178    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/29/93       178    (H)   OIL & GAS, RESOURCES, JUDICIARY                  
  02/04/93              (H)   O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124                      
  02/04/93              (H)   MINUTE(O&G)                                      
  02/05/93       233    (H)   O&G RPT  7DP                                     
  02/05/93       233    (H)   DP: KOTT, OLBERG, MACKIE, SITTON                 
  02/05/93       233    (H)   DP: G.DAVIS, SANDERS, GREEN                      
  02/05/93       233    (H)   -ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DEC) 2/5/93                   
  02/15/93       343    (H)   RES RPT  6DP                                     
  02/15/93       343    (H)   DP:HUDSON, CARNEY, GREEN,                        
                              MULDER, BUNDE                                    
  02/15/93       343    (H)   DP: WILLIAMS                                     
  02/15/93       343    (H)   -PREVIOUS ZERO FN (DEC) 2/5/93                   
  02/15/93              (H)   RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124                      
  02/15/93              (H)   MINUTE(RES)                                      
  03/01/93              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB  97                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: PARENTAL CARE FOR CHILD IN STATE CUSTODY                        
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES                            
                                                                               
  TITLE: "An Act clarifying the responsibilities of the                        
  Department of Health and Social Services and parents for                     
  children who are committed to the custody of the department                  
  and are placed by the department with the parents; and                       
  providing for an effective date."                                            
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/29/93       177    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/29/93       178    (H)   HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE                          
  02/08/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  02/08/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  02/10/93       288    (H)   HES RPT  7DP  2NR                                
  02/10/93       288    (H)   DP: BUNDE, G.DAVIS, TOOHEY,                      
                              OLBERG                                           
  02/10/93       288    (H)   DP: NICHOLIA, B.DAVIS, BRICE                     
  02/10/93       288    (H)   NR:  KOTT, VEZEY                                 
  02/10/93       289    (H)   -ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DHSS) 2/10/93                 
  02/17/93              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
  02/17/93              (H)   MINUTE(JUD)                                      
  02/24/93              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
  03/01/93              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB   2                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: DRUG TESTING FOR SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS                             
  BILL VERSION:                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) PHILLIPS                                       
                                                                               
  TITLE: "An Act requiring drug and alcohol tests for school                   
  bus drivers."                                                                
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/04/93        25    (H)   PREFILE RELEASED                                 
  01/11/93        25    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/11/93        25    (H)   HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE                          
  02/08/93              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  02/08/93              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  02/10/93       284    (H)   HES RPT 5DP  4NR                                 
  02/10/93       284    (H)   DP: KOTT, TOOHEY, OLBERG,                        
                              NICHOLIA, BUNDE                                  
  02/10/93       284    (H)   NR: VEZEY, G.DAVIS, BRICE,                       
                              B.DAVIS                                          
  02/10/93       284    (H)   -FISCAL NOTE  (DOE)  2/10/93                     
  03/01/93              (H)   JUD AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 120                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
                                                                               
  TAPE 93-25, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  The House Judiciary Committee meeting was called to order at                 
  1:10 p.m. on March 1, 1993.  A quorum was present.  CHAIRMAN                 
  PORTER announced that HB 99 was the first item of business                   
  before the committee.                                                        
  HB 99 - REPEAL 65-DAY DEADLINE: OIL SPILL PLANS                              
                                                                               
  Number 028                                                                   
                                                                               
  STEVEN PORTER, MANAGER, PERMITS AND COMPLIANCE, ARCO,                        
  representing ARCO and other parties supporting HB 99,                        
  explained that the Department of Environmental Conservation                  
  was required to approve or disapprove oil spill plans within                 
  65 days of receipt.  He said the rule sounded good on paper,                 
  but was not easily implemented.  He noted that the process                   
  often stopped for public hearings or requests for additional                 
  information or for other reasons.  Because of those delays,                  
  he noted that the 65-day period would have to start at the                   
  end of the process to ensure that the plan was approved                      
  within that time frame.                                                      
                                                                               
  MR. PORTER commented that the 65-day rule had become a                       
  burden that regulations were written around.  He said it                     
  would be best to scrap the 65-day rule and rewrite the                       
  regulations to streamline the process for getting an oil                     
  spill plan approved or disapproved.                                          
                                                                               
  MR. PORTER said that oil spill plans had to comply with the                  
  Alaska Coastal Management Program (ACMP), a complex process                  
  that analyzed the plans and allowed for public comment.                      
  Compliance with the ACMP assured oil spill plan writers that                 
  the Department of Environmental Conservation would also                      
  approve the oil spill plans.                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. PORTER commented that he was part of a large coalition                   
  of supporters, including the Prince William Sound Regional                   
  Citizens' Advisory Council, the Cook Inlet Regional                          
  Citizens' Advisory Council, oil companies, coastal                           
  districts, and municipalities.                                               
                                                                               
  Number 103                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JOE GREEN, PRIME SPONSOR of HB 99, said that he would                   
  entertain any questions the committee members might have.                    
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER announced that BETH KERTTULA of the                          
  DEPARTMENT OF LAW, and ED COLLAZZI of the DEPARTMENT OF                      
  ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION, were present and willing to                      
  answer questions on HB 99.                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 126                                                                   
                                                                               
  RUSSELL HEATH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ALASKA                              
  ENVIRONMENTAL LOBBY, testified in support of HB 99.  He                      
  noted that the environmental community's only real concern                   
  regarding the issue was that oil spill contingency plans                     
  were adequately reviewed.  He said he thought that repeal of                 
  the 65-day rule would enhance that review process.                           
                                                                               
  Number 147                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES made a motion to move HB 99 from the House                        
  Judiciary Committee with individual recommendations and a                    
  zero fiscal note.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 152                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER, seeing no objection to the motion, ordered                  
  HB 99 out of committee with individual recommendations and a                 
  zero fiscal note.                                                            
  HB 97 - PARENTAL CARE FOR CHILD IN STATE CUSTODY                             
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER announced that HB 97 was the next item of                    
  business before the committee.                                               
                                                                               
  ELMER LINDSTROM, from the DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL                    
  SERVICES, said HB 97 was sponsored by Rep. Cynthia Toohey,                   
  who could not be at the meeting to speak on the bill.  He                    
  said the department supported HB 97.  He commented that the                  
  need for HB 97 arose from a 1991 court ruling that would                     
  require the department to pay for medical costs for children                 
  who were in state custody, but were living with their                        
  parents.  Mr. Lindstrom noted that while the situation might                 
  seem peculiar, it was in fact common for children to be                      
  removed from their homes, placed in foster care, and later                   
  returned to their homes while still in the custody of the                    
  state.  Mr. Lindstrom noted that in December 1992, 235                       
  Alaskan children were living with their parents while                        
  technically in state custody.                                                
                                                                               
  MR. LINDSTROM said that the court had ruled that the                         
  department was liable for medical costs for children in that                 
  situation.  He added that the Department of Law was                          
  concerned that by extension the state could find itself in                   
  the position of paying for other costs as well, including                    
  food and lodging.                                                            
                                                                               
  MR. LINDSTROM called the members' attention to the zero                      
  fiscal note attached to HB 97.  He said that if the bill did                 
  not pass the legislature, the state could face a substantial                 
  cost.                                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 258                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Mr. Lindstrom if he were to appear                     
  before the committee a year from now, would he bring a                       
  fiscal note for HB 97 reflecting a cost savings to the                       
  state?                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 261                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. LINDSTROM said the chairman was correct; HB 97 was a                     
  cost avoidance measure, but those costs could not be avoided                 
  for an indefinite period of time.                                            
                                                                               
  Number 270                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN asked Mr. Lindstrom if HB 97 would have any                       
  adverse effect on children going back to live with their                     
  parents by requiring parents to pay for the costs of raising                 
  their children.                                                              
                                                                               
  Number 281                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. LINDSTROM said that he was unaware of any concerns the                   
  department had in that regard.                                               
                                                                               
  Number 299                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN made a motion to pass HB 97 out of committee,                     
  with individual recommendations and a zero fiscal note.                      
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS stated that she would like to know how much                    
  money the state had spent in the last several years on the                   
  program.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 310                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER commented that no money had yet been spent                   
  by the state because of the recency of the court decision                    
  requiring that the state pay medical expenses.                               
                                                                               
  Hearing no objections, CHAIRMAN PORTER ordered that HB 97 be                 
  move out of committee, with individual recommendations and a                 
  zero fiscal note.                                                            
  HB 2 - DRUG TESTING FOR SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER announced that HB 2 was the next item of                     
  business before the committee.                                               
                                                                               
  Number 332                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GAIL PHILLIPS, PRIME SPONSOR of HB 2, stated that the                   
  bill would require drug and alcohol testing for school bus                   
  drivers.  She said that she had introduced HB 2 at the                       
  request of her constituents and as a result of incidents on                  
  the Kenai Peninsula, to help ensure the safe transportation                  
  of children to and from school.  She noted that she had                      
  originally sponsored the bill in 1992, but that bill died in                 
  the House Finance Committee.                                                 
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS said HB 2 would require a school district or a                 
  Regional Educational Attendance Area (REAA) to establish a                   
  drug and alcohol testing program, including random testing,                  
  if the district or REAA provided transportation for                          
  students.  She commented that this type of testing was                       
  already provided for under current law, in the event of an                   
  accident or when reasonable cause existed.  She added that                   
  HB 2 required that the Department of Education promulgate                    
  regulations for implementing the program and creating a                      
  hearing process before discipline was imposed.  She said HB
  2 would go into effect 90 days after it is signed into law                   
  by the governor.                                                             
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS called the members' attention to a memorandum                  
  from TERRY CRAMER, of the LEGAL SERVICES DIVISION of the                     
  LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS AGENCY.  In her memorandum, Ms. Cramer                   
  acknowledged that a school bus driver could challenge the                    
  testing without probable cause.  Ms. Cramer's concern                        
  pertained to the random testing aspect of HB 2.  Ms.                         
  Cramer's memorandum pointed out that there was precedence in                 
  that some courts had already ruled that random tests were                    
  acceptable without probable cause, in cases where employees'                 
  expectations of privacy were lessened because of the type of                 
  employment and where the public interest was sufficiently                    
  great.                                                                       
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS noted that some states already had laws                        
  similar to HB 2 on the books.  She concluded by saying that,                 
  in her opinion, there was no greater public interest than                    
  the safety of children.  She added that Alaska already                       
  required the testing of commercial transporters:  pilots,                    
  train engineers, etc.                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 376                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked what the fiscal note would be paying for.                   
                                                                               
  Number 379                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS replied that the figures on the fiscal note                    
  reflected the cost of conducting the drug and alcohol                        
  testing.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 383                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES commented that her husband was a school bus                       
  driver and a tour bus driver.  She noted that the tour bus                   
  company already did drug testing, and said that if the state                 
  took over drug testing, the tour company would benefit by                    
  not having to pay for testing any longer.  She said she did                  
  not understand why the bus companies could not pay for the                   
  testing.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 389                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS responded that under federal law, the                          
  commercial bus companies were required to provide drug                       
  testing.  She added that there was no law that said the                      
  state had to provide drug testing for school bus drivers.                    
                                                                               
  Number 393                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES stated that she supported the testing of school                   
  bus drivers.  However, she did not support the state picking                 
  up the tab for the testing.                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 401                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS commented that the state could not demand that                 
  the private companies pay for and administer drug testing                    
  for school bus drivers because there was currently no state                  
  law requiring that testing.                                                  
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked if the law could be written so that the                     
  private companies would have to pay for the testing.                         
                                                                               
  Number 405                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS said that would result in a state-mandated                     
  program, without compensation from the state.                                
                                                                               
  Number 411                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that not all school bus drivers were                   
  employed by private companies.  In Anchorage, half or more                   
  of the school bus drivers were employed by the Anchorage                     
  School District.                                                             
                                                                               
  Number 418                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS stated that she imagined that was the case in                  
  every smaller community off of the main road system.                         
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER commented that public budgets would be                       
  impacted if the state chose not to pay for the drug testing.                 
                                                                               
  Number 428                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT said HB 2 did not include a good definition of                     
  "random testing."  He stated that his understanding of                       
  random testing was that the entire population of school bus                  
  drivers would not be tested at the same time.                                
                                                                               
  Number 440                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that his understanding was that the                     
  randomness referred to all of the employees of a particular                  
  school district being tested on a particular, random day.                    
                                                                               
  Number 449                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES stated that she did not see how an entire                         
  district the size of Anchorage could be tested all on the                    
  same day, but she added that she did support random testing.                 
                                                                               
  Number 457                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT said that under HB 2, if a district was tested                     
  once in January, the likelihood of tests being repeated                      
  during that calendar year was slim.  He spoke about random                   
  testing by the military, where not everyone was tested at                    
  once, but everyone knew that it could happen at any time.                    
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS commented that the fiscal note could be                        
  increased to provide for the type of program that Rep. Kott                  
  had mentioned.                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 472                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that the fiscal note would not                          
  necessarily have to be increased, but could possibly be                      
  decreased.  He noted that the whole idea was to make drivers                 
  think that it was likely that they would be tested.                          
                                                                               
  Number 480                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS read from the Department of Education's                        
  position paper, which said that as a minimum, all drivers                    
  should be tested prior to employment and annually.  The                      
  latter test would be considered random.  All drivers in a                    
  given district would be tested on the same, unannounced day.                 
  Districts would be selected randomly, with each district                     
  selected at some time during each year.  Additional testing                  
  would be done after an accident and when reasonable cause                    
  existed.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 489                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that Rep. Phillips' comments were                      
  exactly why Rep. Kott's observation was correct.  He said                    
  that if the Anchorage School District was tested once during                 
  a year, there would be no more likelihood that the drivers                   
  within that district would be tested again during that year.                 
  He said the committee could ask the Department of Education                  
  to come up with a real, random testing program.                              
                                                                               
  Number 500                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES indicated her wholehearted support of drug                        
  testing for school bus drivers.  However, she noted her                      
  belief that having the state conduct the testing program was                 
  not terribly efficient or cost-effective.  She said it made                  
  sense to require the employers, whether they were a                          
  municipality or a private company, to do the random testing.                 
                                                                               
  Number 523                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN mentioned that his prior employer had used random                 
  drug testing whereby an employee, once tested, had no idea                   
  when her or his next test would occur.  He added that his                    
  employer had some problems with the drug testing program and                 
  the right to privacy.  He said he would like to hear some                    
  testimony on how drug testing would mesh with an                             
  individual's right to privacy.                                               
                                                                               
  Number 538                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS commented that five other states had already                   
  passed laws similar to HB 2, and if right to privacy issues                  
  were involved, the other states' laws would have been                        
  challenged already; which they had not.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 542                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asked if those five other states had right to                      
  privacy provisions in their constitutions.                                   
                                                                               
  Number 547                                                                   
                                                                               
  GAYLE HORETSKI, COMMITTEE COUNSEL TO THE HOUSE JUDICIARY                     
  COMMITTEE, said she had not done any independent research on                 
  the issue before the committee.  She called members'                         
  attention to a memorandum from Terry Cramer of the Legal                     
  Services Division in their packets.  In her memorandum, Ms.                  
  Cramer discussed three cases, one of which was a recent                      
  Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals case.  She noted that in that                 
  particular case, the court had approved a pre-employment,                    
  post-accident, and biannual drug testing program for drivers                 
  operating certain motor vehicles.  In that ruling, the court                 
  had considered the seriousness of the harm in the event that                 
  the driver was impaired.  That court balanced the rights of                  
  the drivers with the public policy right that roads and                      
  passengers be safe.                                                          
                                                                               
  MS. HORETSKI spoke about another case cited in Ms. Cramer's                  
  memorandum, which was the sole Alaska case that Ms. Horetski                 
  was aware of.  In that case, she said, a private company had                 
  implemented a random drug testing policy.  She noted that                    
  the court had allowed that policy to stand.  Ms. Horetski                    
  pointed out that the case involved a private company, so                     
  constitutional protections like the right to privacy were                    
  not at issue.                                                                
                                                                               
  Number 586                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Ms. Horetski if it would be prudent to                 
  come up with some findings that indicated the seriousness of                 
  the problem of impaired school bus drivers.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 590                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HORETSKi said she thought it would be a good idea and                    
  would strengthen the law's chances of being upheld by a                      
  court.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 604                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was a distinction between                     
  applying HB 2 to existing employees as opposed to future                     
  employees.                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HORETSKI expressed her opinion that there was no                         
  distinction.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 612                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that he was thinking about the                          
  expectation of privacy for employees who had taken the job                   
  not expecting drug testing, as compared to employees who                     
  took jobs knowing that they would be tested.                                 
                                                                               
  MS. HORETSKI said that the court would likely reject that                    
  distinction.                                                                 
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN said he believed that his prior employer had                      
  gotten around the right to privacy issue by requiring random                 
  drug testing for employees operating equipment that could                    
  hurt themselves or others.  He commented that the same                       
  rationale would hold for school bus drivers.                                 
                                                                               
  Number 627                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS stated that it did not matter who paid for the                 
  drug testing, as in the end, the state would end up paying                   
  for it.  If a contractor was required to conduct drug                        
  testing, she said, the contractor would simply tack that                     
  cost on to the cost of the contract.                                         
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asked if HB 2 was in response to an existing                       
  problem.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 640                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS noted that the issue had been brought to her                   
  attention because of several incidents on the Kenai                          
  Peninsula.  She said she had been mortified to learn that                    
  the state required drug testing for state-licensed                           
  commercial bus drivers, but not for school bus drivers.                      
                                                                               
  Number 650                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if it would be easier to require                       
  school bus drivers to have a commercial driver's license.                    
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS said that the ramifications for federal                        
  funding would need to be researched.                                         
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS stated that the law required commercial,                       
  interstate drivers to be drug and alcohol tested.  She added                 
  that the Alaska Trucking Association had come out in support                 
  of HB 2, because all of its drivers were required to be                      
  tested.  She commented that some of these drivers probably                   
  just drove within the state, from Anchorage to the North                     
  Slope, for example.  She said that the committee could check                 
  into the idea of requiring school bus drivers to get                         
  commercial drivers' licenses and therefore be tested for                     
  drugs and alcohol.                                                           
                                                                               
  Number 665                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES mentioned that her husband was licensed to drive                  
  any type of a bus, or a truck and a trailer.  Her husband's                  
  employer required random drug and alcohol testing, she                       
  added.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 672                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HORETSKI called the members' attention to a memorandum                   
  from the Department of Education, dated February 10, 1993.                   
  She stated that the federal government required drug testing                 
  for interstate transportation.  She added that drivers of                    
  buses with more than 15 passengers in Alaska were required                   
  to possess a commercial driver's license.  Therefore, she                    
  said, some bus drivers would be required to have commercial                  
  driver's licenses and some would not.  She noted that state                  
  requirements were the result of a federal mandate.  She                      
  added that the state had no option in terms of defining                      
  commercial motor vehicles.                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that if HB 2 were enacted, it would be                  
  redundant with existing state law, except for drivers                        
  operating school buses with fewer than 15 passengers.                        
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS responded that many areas of Alaska had school                 
  bus drivers carrying fewer than 15 passengers, particularly                  
  special education buses.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 730                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES reiterated her support for drug testing school                    
  bus drivers.  She expressed her concern regarding the state                  
  performing and paying for the testing.  She said that she                    
  would like to see HB 2 define "random testing."                              
                                                                               
  Number 754                                                                   
                                                                               
  ROMAYNE KAREEN, from the DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, appeared                   
  before the committee to answer questions.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 760                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Ms. Kareen if the department would                     
  find it difficult to configure a drug testing program along                  
  the lines that the committee had been discussing.                            
                                                                               
  Number 770                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN said that she agreed with the concerns of the                     
  committee members.  She added that the fiscal note was based                 
  on certain assumptions, but no firm plans for implementing                   
  HB 2 were in place.  She noted that the department would be                  
  flexible in its thinking regarding random drug testing.                      
                                                                               
  Number 784                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if the wording of HB 2 precluded the                   
  department from contracting out the drug testing program.                    
                                                                               
  Number 789                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN said the bill would not preclude the department                   
  from contracting the testing program out.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 791                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if it would be Ms. Kareen's intent to                  
  contract out the program.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 792                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN said that was her intent, and it was taken into                   
  consideration when the fiscal note was prepared.  She                        
  mentioned that the state of Delaware contracted out its drug                 
  testing program and found the contract to be effective.                      
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN asked Ms. Kareen if there was a "chain-of-                        
  custody" problem for drug testing samples taken in rural                     
  areas.                                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 808                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN said the department would adopt regulations                       
  spelling out procedures for the drug testing program.  She                   
  added that Rep. Green's concern had been taken into                          
  consideration in terms of the overall cost of the program.                   
                                                                               
  TAPE 93-25, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 002                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that there needed to be reasonable                     
  controls on samples, but that the controls would not be as                   
  strict as those required for evidence in a criminal case.                    
  He said that in dismissing a driver, it would have to be                     
  shown that reasonable controls had been used on the samples.                 
                                                                               
  Number 027                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN noted that Tundra Tours, which provided                           
  transportation for students, required drug testing in the                    
  event of an accident, whether or not the driver was at                       
  fault.  She added that another contractor, Mayflower, did                    
  pre-employment testing.  However, she noted that one never                   
  knew who would win a contract in a particular area.  She                     
  stated that there was no consistency in drug testing                         
  policies of particular companies.                                            
                                                                               
  Number 056                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS said that the concerns raised by the committee                 
  could be incorporated into a letter of intent that would                     
  convey to the department how the legislature intended for                    
  the drug testing program to be implemented.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 060                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked Ms. Kareen if she felt that "random                         
  testing" ought to be defined in HB 2.                                        
                                                                               
  Number 069                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN replied that it depended on how strongly the                      
  Legislature felt about the issue.  As the administrator of                   
  the school bus program, she said that she agreed with the                    
  committee's concerns.                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 101                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER commented that if the department were to                     
  conduct random tests along the lines that the committee had                  
  been discussing, there would be a wide latitude in terms of                  
  volume of tests performed.  He noted that the number of                      
  tests done every year would go hand-in-hand with the                         
  program's deterrent effect.  Therefore, he suggested that a                  
  sufficient number of tests be done every year so that the                    
  deterrent effect would kick in.                                              
                                                                               
  Number 121                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked if the testing could be done locally.                    
                                                                               
  Number 125                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that the testing could be done locally.                 
                                                                               
  Number 136                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON noted that contracting with local health care                  
  providers would result in more random sampling.  He stated                   
  that people should not be under the impression that the                      
  legislature was creating a police state, but that a message                  
  should be sent that the state wanted to ensure maximum                       
  safety for school children.  He added that the best                          
  discipline was always self-discipline, and the                               
  responsibility for safeguarding public safety had to rest                    
  with the individual.  He said he did not want to undermine                   
  privacy rights through drug testing of school bus drivers,                   
  but wanted to ensure the safety of children.  He urged the                   
  committee to not get carried away.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 185                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES reiterated her concerns about the cost of                         
  implementing the program.  She said that regulations should                  
  be written so that as much of the burden as possible rested                  
  on the shoulders of the employer, saving the state money.                    
                                                                               
  Number 199                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON commented that "you get what you pay for."  He                 
  said, oftentimes, government tries to do things in the                       
  cheapest manner possible.  He asked Ms. Kareen if there were                 
  cheaper, less reliable testing methods and more expensive,                   
  more reliable testing methods.                                               
                                                                               
  Number 209                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN said that it depended on what sort of monitoring                  
  was done by the state.  She expressed her opinion that                       
  adequate money should be provided to the department to do a                  
  good job.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 225                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON emphasized his belief that testing should be                   
  done on the local level as much as possible.                                 
                                                                               
  Number 231                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER commented that collection could often be                     
  done locally, but analysis likely could not.  He said the                    
  most effective and least expensive form of analysis was done                 
  by large companies.  He added that in nearly every community                 
  in the state, there were people capable of gathering                         
  samples; however, few communities had analysis facilities.                   
  He noted that there were two levels of testing recognized by                 
  the federal system, but the higher level and more expensive                  
  test would probably not be required for the state's                          
  purposes.  He stated that he thought the department's fiscal                 
  note was a bit high due to the assumption of a return                        
  requirement for positive tests.                                              
                                                                               
  Number 258                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES noted her concern that most entities that                         
  employed school bus drivers also employed nurses, who could                  
  collect samples.                                                             
                                                                               
  Number 270                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER responded that the nurse, as a fellow                        
  employee of those being tested, could not be trusted to                      
  ensure the integrity of samples.                                             
                                                                               
  Number 287                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON commented that there needed to be a fail-safe                  
  system for ensuring the integrity of samples.  He noted that                 
  there was nothing worse than to be falsely accused or                        
  thought to be guilty of something that one was not guilty                    
  of.  He said that he could envision a person who had never                   
  taken drugs or drunk alcohol being the victim of a mix-up in                 
  sampling.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 316                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that the department would probably                    
  want to contract with companies that were experienced in                     
  providing drug testing services.  He noted that experienced                  
  companies had procedures for guarding against the kind of                    
  situation that Rep. Davidson had described.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 341                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN stated that several states already drug test                      
  their school bus drivers, and Alaska could look to those                     
  other states when developing its program.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 345                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Ms. Kareen what problems she had heard                   
  of that other states had experienced.                                        
                                                                               
  Number 350                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN said she had not extensively researched the                       
  subject.  She stated that she knew that Delaware contracted                  
  with a large company to do all of its drug testing for                       
  school bus drivers.  She added that she thought the testing                  
  was done district by district, or private contractor, by                     
  private contractor.                                                          
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN commented that in Arizona, there was a hearing                    
  process when a school bus driver tested positive, before the                 
  driver's license was taken away.                                             
                                                                               
  Number 370                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON noted that the more the legislature talked                     
  about things, the more they realized there was to talk                       
  about.  He said it was important to gather information and                   
  to ensure that laws were not being made too quickly.  He                     
  said that he would like to know about the experiences of                     
  other states that had implemented drug testing programs for                  
  school bus drivers.                                                          
                                                                               
  Number 389                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS said that the legislature need not look to                     
  other states when it could look within Alaska, at the drug                   
  testing system employed by the Alaska Marine Highway System.                 
                                                                               
  Number 397                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Ms. Kareen if she had spoken with                        
  officials from the Alaska Marine Highway System.                             
                                                                               
  Number 399                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN replied that she had not.                                         
                                                                               
  Number 402                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER said that HB 2 was an enabling statute, and                  
  he did not set out specific procedures for the drug testing                  
  program.  He said that it was up to the committee if they                    
  wanted to set out procedures.                                                
                                                                               
  Number 421                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked if other school employees were currently                    
  drug tested.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 423                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. KAREEN said that she was not familiar with any programs                  
  for drug testing other school employees.                                     
                                                                               
  Number 429                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES expressed her opinion that all school employees                   
  should be tested.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 433                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that it was easy to articulate the                     
  need to drug test school bus drivers, but it would be less                   
  clear as to how a "high" janitor would endanger children.                    
  He commented that court cases looked at the infringement of                  
  privacy versus the public's interest.                                        
                                                                               
  Number 453                                                                   
                                                                               
  FRANK DILLON of the ALASKA TRUCKING ASSOCIATION said that                    
  under current federal law, any driver who operated a vehicle                 
  with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,000 pounds or more                  
  and was involved in the handling of interstate freight was                   
  required to undergo drug testing.  He further defined                        
  interstate freight to include freight picked up from the                     
  Port of Anchorage and delivered within the Anchorage area.                   
  He added that the program had been in existence for about                    
  three years.                                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. DILLON said that the Alaska Trucking Association ran a                   
  drug testing consortium program for its 900 members.  He                     
  stated that the Alaska Trucking Association favored passage                  
  of HB 2, saying that his organization felt that it was                       
  incumbent on all commercial drivers to be as safe and as                     
  sane as possible.  He said that they were looking forward to                 
  the federal government's announced move to cover all truck                   
  drivers for alcohol and drug testing within the next 18 to                   
  24 months.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 485                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. GREEN asked if the Alaska Trucking Association's drug                   
  testing program was random.                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 490                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. DILLON replied that his association's program followed                   
  federal guidelines, which required an initial biannual test                  
  along with a regular physical examination.  He said that the                 
  drivers were then put into a pool, reformed every month,                     
  from which a certain number of drivers were randomly                         
  selected to receive drug tests.  He said that it was                         
  conceivable under their program that a certain driver could                  
  be tested monthly.                                                           
                                                                               
  Number 506                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Mr. Dillon what sort of testing worked,                  
  as far as keeping the drivers aware of their                                 
  responsibilities.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 515                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. DILLON responded that the major element in keeping a                     
  truck driver "straight" was the fact that a positive test                    
  would result in the loss of the driver's job.                                
                                                                               
  Number 528                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Mr. Dillon about the procedure his                       
  association used for drug testing.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 539                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. DILLON replied that some companies did testing at their                  
  terminal locations.  However, most of the companies involved                 
  allowed a driver to route herself or himself to a collection                 
  site, which existed in 13 communities in Alaska.  Personnel                  
  at these collection sites have been trained in using strict                  
  protocols when collecting samples to ensure the integrity of                 
  the samples.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 550                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. DAVIDSON asked Mr. Dillon if his association had had                    
  any problems with the mix-up of samples, or if any employees                 
  had protested the results of the tests.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 551                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. DILLON said that there was a procedure for persons who                   
  protested the results of their tests.  He stated that his                    
  association used an outside testing laboratory with                          
  excellent accuracy.  He said drivers had recourse if they                    
  felt that the results were inaccurate.                                       
                                                                               
  Number 566                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked Mr. Dillon who paid for the truck drivers'                  
  drug tests.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. DILLON indicated that some companies paid for the tests,                 
  whereas other "owner-operator" truck drivers paid for their                  
  own tests.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 582                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that he would entertain a motion, as                  
  he felt that the committee had given the department                          
  substantial direction.                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 585                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS recommended that the department look into the                  
  Alaska Trucking Association's protocol for drug testing when                 
  writing the regulations.                                                     
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked how much money the state would be paying                    
  for testing that was already being conducted by private                      
  contractors.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 601                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER questioned how the state could "tap" the                     
  tests that were already being done without having to repeat                  
  them.                                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 606                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS said that records of tests done by private                     
  contractors could be incorporated into the state's records,                  
  and the state would therefore not need to test those private                 
  contractor drivers.  She noted that this provision could be                  
  incorporated into the regulations and not the statute.                       
                                                                               
  Number 618                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PORTER commented that the committee was giving the                      
  department a great deal of latitude.                                         
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS suggested including the suggestion about                       
  private contractor testing records being accessed by the                     
  state into the letter of intent.                                             
                                                                               
  Number 628                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked Mr. Dillon if drug testing was required for                 
  drivers with commercial driver's licenses.                                   
                                                                               
  Number 634                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. DILLON replied that it depended on what sort of freight                  
  a truck was carrying and the vehicle's size.  He said he                     
  believed that the federal government handled passenger                       
  carriers by the number of seats in the vehicle, as far as                    
  drug testing went.  He said if the vehicle seated 15                         
  passengers or more, the driver would have to undergo drug                    
  testing.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 669                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. JAMES asked if the Municipality of Anchorage drug                       
  tested its bus drivers.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 671                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER indicated that he was not sure, but he did                   
  not believe the municipality drug tested its bus drivers.                    
                                                                               
  Number 677                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. NORDLUND made a motion to move out HB 2 with individual                 
  recommendations and a Department of Education fiscal note.                   
                                                                               
  Number 681                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PHILLIPS suggested that the committee pass out an                       
  accompanying letter of intent that specified the                             
  legislature's expectations for the Department of Education's                 
  regulations.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 687                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. NORDLUND amended his motion so that the bill would be                   
  transmitted to the Chief Clerk's office pending the                          
  committee's approval of the letter of intent.                                
                                                                               
  Number 700                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER reported HB 2 out of the Judiciary                           
  Committee, with individual recommendations, a Department of                  
  Education fiscal note, and a letter of intent to be drafted                  
  and reviewed prior to the bill's transmittal to the Chief                    
  Clerk's office.                                                              
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER announced that a joint Senate and House                      
  Judiciary Committee meeting would be held at 1:30 on the                     
  following Wednesday.  The subject of that meeting would be                   
  confirmation hearings on certain appointees to boards and                    
  commissions.                                                                 
                                                                               
  ADJOURNMENT                                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER adjourned the meeting at 2:36 p.m.                           

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