Legislature(1999 - 2000)
05/04/1999 03:25 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
3:25 p.m.
May 4, 1999
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Fred Dyson, Co-Chair
Representative John Coghill, Co-Chair
Representative Jim Whitaker
Representative Carl Morgan
Representative Tom Brice
Representative Allen Kemplen
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Joe Green
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 213
"An Act relating to the medical use of marijuana; and providing for
an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 213(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 125
"An Act relating to school crisis response planning."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
HOUSE BILL NO. 168
"An Act relating to actions of the Department of Health and Social
Services regarding certain health facility payments."
- BILL HEARING CANCELLED
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 213
SHORT TITLE: MEDICAL USE OF MARIJUANA
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
4/27/99 1026 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/27/99 1027 (H) HES, JUD
5/03/99 (H) HES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 106
5/03/99 (H) HEARD AND HELD
5/04/99 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
DUANE UDLAND, Chief of Police
Anchorage Police Department
4501 South Bragaw
Anchorage, Alaska 99507
Telephone: (907) 786-8590
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 213.
DEAN GUANELI, Chief Assistant Attorney General
Legal Services Section - Juneau
Criminal Division
Department of Law
P.O. Box 110300
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Telephone: (907) 465-3428
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 213.
DAVID KENDRICK, Lieutenant
Fairbanks Police Department
656 Seventh Avenue
Fairbanks, Alaska 99701
Telephone: (907) 459-6500
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on behalf of Fairbanks Police
Department in support of HB 213.
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Public Safety
P.O. Box 111200
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Telephone: (907) 465-4322
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 213.
DR. ANDY EMBICK
Box 1829
Valdez, Alaska 99686
Telephone: (907) 835-4811
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 213.
MATTHEW FAGNANI, President
Worksafe, Incorporated
3340 Tudor Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
Telephone: (907) 563-8378
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 213.
DON DAPCEVICH
Governor's Advisory Board on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse
P.O. Box 021571
Juneau, Alaska 99802
Telephone: (907) 586-2173
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 213.
SHERRIE MYERS
Beowulf Drug Education
P.O. Box 32043
Juneau, Alaska 99803
Telephone: (907) 586-9088
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 213.
ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant
Office of the Commissioner
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110601
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Telephone: (907) 465-1613
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 213
with the amendments.
AL ZANGRI, Chief
Vital Statistics
Division of Public Health
P.O. Box 110675
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Telephone: (907) 465-3392
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on HB 213.
DAVID FINKELSTEIN
Alaskans for Medical Rights
P.O. Box 102320
Anchorage, Alaska 99510
Telephone: (907) 277-2567
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 213.
GERALD LUCKHAUPT, Attorney
Legislative Legal and Research Services
Legislative Affairs Agency
130 Seward Street, Suite 409
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2450
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on HB 213.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 99-50, SIDE A
Number 0031
The minutes for the Alaska Hospital and Nursing Home Association
Report can be found in the cover sheet of the same date, 3:00 p.m.
HB 213 - MEDICAL USE OF MARIJUANA
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the next order of business as House
Bill No. 213, "An Act relating to the medical use of marijuana; and
providing for an effective date."
Number 0060
DUANE UDLAND, Chief of Police, Anchorage Police Department,
testified via teleconference from Anchorage. The statewide chiefs
of police met, and they support the intent of the public and their
efforts to have medical marijuana. The chiefs of police are
concerned with the definition of the amount of marijuana that
individuals can have, and they support mandatory registration of
patients and caregivers so law enforcement knows who is authorized
to possess and use medical marijuana or to provide it for patients.
Without that registration, the police are in a difficult position.
The police officers don't want to be in a position where they have
to decide whether or not someone is telling the truth about medical
marijuana.
MR. UDLAND indicated that the police don't need to know the medical
reasons and don't care about the privacy issues; all they want to
know is if they have the right person. Not having registration
places law enforcement in the position of making some embarrassing
arrests that will be reversed later, or possibly letting people go
who simply lie. They want to avoid the problems that California
has faced. There are some good amendments proposed by the
Department of Law, and he hopes the committee takes a look at them.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Udland if one ounce of marijuana was a
reasonable amount.
MR. UDLAND agreed it was a reasonable amount. Today marijuana
plants grow to be huge shrubs, and they can yield a lot of
marijuana. The definition they have before them will take care of
their concern.
Number 0358
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Udland what is the magnitude of the
marijuana busts these days.
MR. UDLAND answered they have joined with other law enforcement
agencies and done some marijuana grow operations in the
Matanuska-Susitna Valley area and Anchorage, which are notoriously
large operations. They could do a lot more on marijuana than they
actually focus on; it is a matter of resources.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Udland for his sense of the marijuana
problem.
Number 0439
MR. UDLAND commented that if they compare marijuana to alcohol,
they will find that people smoking marijuana tend to be more
docile. Research shows that non-medical marijuana is a gateway
drug, and it does have intoxicating effects. Often marijuana is
mixed with alcohol and other drugs. He would not agree with anyone
who says it is harmless.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Udland if he finds many people in his
jurisdiction who get victimized when they are under the influence
of marijuana.
MR. UDLAND said it would be hard to put a name on it, but anytime
people are under the influence of any drug, including alcohol, they
are in harm's way.
Number 0562
DEAN GUANELI, Chief Assistant Attorney General, Legal Services
Section - Juneau, Criminal Division, Department of Law, testified
via teleconference from Anchorage saying he hasn't heard any
previous testimony but offered to address any areas and answer
questions that the committee would like.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Guaneli to address what the legislature
needs to do to make the initiative work.
Number 0646
MR. GUANELI answered that the position of the administration is
that the voters have spoken and indicated a desire to provide
access to marijuana for medical purposes for certain individuals.
The administration has heard that and wants to make this program
work. However, they don't believe it will work because there are
ambiguities, loopholes and problems with the initiative as enacted.
It is subject to abuses and if they occur, there could be a
groundswell against the program and result in its repeal. The
administration has proposed a number of changes to the initiative
that will make the program work. Registration of patients must be
mandatory. Unless registration is mandatory, it creates a
situation where people will be using marijuana for medical purposes
but not registering, and that will be difficult for law enforcement
to make decisions about whether or not to arrest someone.
MR. GUANELI pointed out that there needs to be a definite limit on
the amount of marijuana that can be possessed. The initiative has
a limit, but there is a loophole that if people can show they need
more, they could possess unlimited amounts, and that could cause
problems for the police. A limitation to what was specifically
allowed in the initiative is what is needed. One ounce of
marijuana will last someone a fair amount of time, but the real
flexibility is in the six plants. The average mature marijuana
plant that the state troopers confiscated in marijuana growing
operations last year amounted to about four ounces of useable
marijuana per plant.
Number 0937
MR. GUANELI explained that if the other three plants yielded an
ounce each, and the three plants yielded four ounces each, then
that adds up to 15 ounces, plus the one ounce of useable marijuana,
equals one pound of marijuana. It is unreasonable to think that
people would need to possess more.
MR. GUANELI said there are other aspects of the law that are less
obvious. Marijuana is a Schedule VI-A, controlled substance under
Alaska law, but the initiative changed that so marijuana for
medical use is taken out of the schedule altogether. It is not a
controlled substance now, so that means that all the offenses under
Alaska law with controlled substances don't apply when dealing with
medical marijuana. For example, possession of a firearm while
under the influence of a controlled substance is against the law.
However, if marijuana for medical purposes is not a controlled
substance, then that means someone can be stoned on marijuana for
medical purposes and possess a firearm, and nothing could be done
in Alaska criminal law in that situation. The only penalty
provided for that in the initiative is if someone uses marijuana in
a way that endangers others, then their registration can be taken
away for one year. That amounts to very little because they don't
have to be registered to use marijuana. The person could continue
to use marijuana; they just wouldn't have a registry identification
card. Some of those subtle provisions in the bill need to be
changed.
MR. GUANELI noted another provision that sounds good, but really
amounts to very little, is the prohibition under the initiative
that says people with registry identification cards can't use
marijuana in public. Because they don't have to be registered to
use marijuana for medical purposes, and because the prohibition in
using it in public only applies to those who are registered, that
means that people who are not registered can use it in public for
medical purposes. Patients who are registered can't use marijuana
in public, but people who are not registered can use it in public.
Under the law, these two groups are being treated significantly
different, and there is a question whether this is constitutional
under the equal protection doctrine. That provision in the
initiative, therefore, is probably unconstitutional. That means,
in his view, marijuana for medical purposes can be used openly.
MR. GUANELI said there is another provision that says registered
patients can sell or distribute marijuana to another person as long
as they don't know that that person is not entitled to use it. In
California, marijuana clubs have sprung up to buy and sell
marijuana and raked in about $1 million per month. In Alaska there
is a specific provision that would allow registered patients to
sell to other people as long as that patient doesn't know for
certain that the person is not entitled to use marijuana. This
demonstrates how the drafters of the initiative didn't realize some
of the things that the initiative would do as drafted. Both HB 213
and SB 94 correct all of the problems he identified, as well as
others that he hasn't talked about.
Number 1293
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Guaneli if he said someone can sell to
people unless he knows they are disqualified as a medical user.
MR. GUANELI answered a registered patient is prohibited from
selling or distributing to any person who the patient knows is not
registered or is not entitled to be registered. He can sell as
long as he does not know that the person is not entitled to use.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if there is anything in the initiative that
requires the seller to verify that he is a qualified buyer.
MR. GUANELI answered no there is not. The marijuana clubs that
sprung up bought and sold marijuana in a variety of amounts, but
they usually sold marijuana in the amount of one-eighth ounce and
from that a person could get a few marijuana cigarettes. The
one-eighth ounce of marijuana ranged in price from $20 to $120.
This demonstrates the danger in allowing some people to profit from
others who feel they have a legitimate need for marijuana.
Number 1444
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Guaneli if his remarks also applied to
the caregiver.
MR. GUANELI said he believes that the wording in the initiative is
limited to the registered patient, so it would not apply to the
primary caregiver. The bill before them has a provision that the
primary caregiver can distribute to the patient, and the patient
can distribute to the primary caregiver, and that is the only
distribution that should occur.
Number 1497
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if there is anything in the initiative or
HB 213 that limits the profit making on this.
MR. GUANELI answered he doesn't believe that there is anything that
speaks to that specifically. It is possible that a primary
caregiver could charge the patient for the service of providing
marijuana. The protection in the current bill is that the primary
caregiver can only provide marijuana to one patient at a time. The
profit incentive is greatly reduced under HB 213. That will keep
the people with a profit motive only out of the business.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Guaneli if the misuse of illegal
marijuana is significantly impacting the court system.
Number 1593
MR. GUANELI answered in terms of small amounts of recreational use
of marijuana, the answer is clearly no. Approximately 100
marijuana growing operations are filed in the Matanuska-Susitna
valley every year. The state troopers tell him they could probably
make one of those cases a day if they put a lot more effort towards
it. The troopers have found very sophisticated growing operations
in the valley, which include buildings specifically built for
growing marijuana and underground cellars that vent the odor of
marijuana far away from the building to make it harder to identify
the smell with the building location.
MR. GUANELI pointed out that people go to great lengths to grow
marijuana because of the profit motive. Alaska grows some of the
most potent marijuana in the world. The content of THC
[tetra-hydro-cannabinol] is 10 to 20 times higher today than 20
years ago. Marijuana is a very powerful hallucinogenic drug and
has gotten more expensive. A lot of money can be made on a fairly
small growing operation. They have had information from other
state law enforcement agencies that marijuana is actually exported
from Alaska to other states, and some of the best marijuana is
actually traded for cocaine on a pound-for-pound basis. Once that
kind of profit motive is involved, there is violence from people
who want to take the grower's money. Although marijuana may not
cause the same social problems as alcohol, marijuana has its own
set of problems.
Number 1785
MR. GUANELI mentioned that they can learn from the experience in
California where there was no mandatory registration, but many of
the counties have found that to make the program work and to solve
some of the practical law enforcement problems, the counties
enacted ordinances that require the registration in the county.
That seems to be working very well.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Guaneli if it would solve many of their
problems if the federal government changed the list on which
medical marijuana is on and allowed doctors to prescribe it.
MR. GUANELI agreed that providing a national standard, backed up by
national research and specific criteria that the doctors can
follow, would be beneficial. This is a national issue. There are
agencies on the federal level working on that, but it may not
happen soon.
Number 2103
DAVID KENDRICK, Lieutenant, Fairbanks Police Department (FPD),
testified via teleconference from Fairbanks. He has been with FPD
over 22 years and has worked with various drug units in Fairbanks.
Law enforcement has some compassion for people in medical need of
marijuana to reduce their pain, but they are concerned with the
potential for abuse with the amount of marijuana patients can
possess. It has been his experience that three plants could grow
very large and produce between two and three pounds of marijuana
per plant. During an investigation of a marijuana conspiracy in
Fairbanks, the officers seized several hundred pounds of marijuana:
plants in full maturity ranging from eight to nine feet tall and
three to four feet wide and producing up to two or three pounds of
marijuana. The average is four or five ounces per plant, but the
plants can grow larger than that.
MR. KENDRICK told the committee that due to the ability of the
growers in Alaska, the THC content of the marijuana plants is now
up in the 20 to 30 percent range, which makes for an extremely
potent plant. In the investigation in Fairbanks, some people
involved stated it was so potent that they would go into
convulsions and vomit if they smoked too much of this marijuana.
The person growing the marijuana said he doesn't smoke his own
marijuana; he purchases marijuana from friends whose marijuana is
less potent. He pointed out that six plants could produce a very
large quantity of marijuana. Mr. Kendrick concludes that law
enforcement in Fairbanks supports this amendment to the medical
marijuana act tightening up the language and taking care of any
loopholes.
Number 2304
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, came
forward to testify saying that the amendments that were added to SB
94 addressed many of the department's concerns which include the
mandatory registration, the listing of the primary caregiver and
the amount of marijuana a patient can possess.
TAPE 99-50, SIDE B
Number 2357
MR. SMITH noted that the department supports the right based upon
the citizens' vote for people to use medical marijuana.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked Mr. Smith how they would limit the
quantity of plants.
MR. SMITH answered he isn't entirely sure how they might, or if
they should, change the six plant amount.
Number 2272
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if it is fair to say that the DPS is
comfortable with SB 94 as amended.
MR. SMITH said the administration, including the DPS and the DHSS
and the Department of Law, are in agreement on the package of
amendments adopted into the committee substitute for SB 94, and if
HB 213 is the same, they would support that also.
Number 2216
DR. ANDY EMBICK testified via teleconference from Valdez saying
just since the ballot measure was passed, he has become familiar
with the kinds of complaints that patients mention as being helped
by marijuana. Of course they didn't mention this before, but now
they indicate that they want a letter from him. In general, the
complaints mentioned are not life-threatening conditions; they are
not immediately fatal; they are not the dramatic sorts of things
that were listed in the original bill, but rather chronic problems
that one might refer to as relatively non-life-threatening, maybe
even minor. However, they aren't minor to the person who is in
pain. Most of the patients that a physician is likely to see, who
ask for a letter for registration and use of medical marijuana, are
likely to be in this category.
DR. EMBICK agreed that they should not limit the conditions that
patients can receive medical marijuana; use of marijuana as a drug
appears to be considerably safer than many drugs which physicians
normally prescribe. It is certainly safer than chemotherapy. The
narcotics that doctors prescribe on a regular basis seem more
dangerous than marijuana, and marijuana is vastly safer than
alcohol. In twenty years, he has not seen a patient who said their
problem was from marijuana or could he attribute their complaint to
marijuana. Whereas in twenty years, alcohol has been the cause in
thousands of cases. Because marijuana counts as a relatively minor
drug when compared to others, it shouldn't be singled out as one
which requires the physician to specify what condition is being
treated.
Number 2014
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Dr. Embick to comment on whether smoking
marijuana is more dangerous than smoking cigarettes.
DR. EMBICK noted that he tells patients that the hazards of
marijuana are likely to be seven times as dangerous as cigarettes,
but they can only guess at that by looking at the content in the
smoke of tars and particulates, rather than using epidemiologic
data twenty or thirty years down the line to see the relative
frequency of emphysema or lung cancer. They are probably looking
at the composition of the smoke and not the final public health
effect. The cigarette makers have been doing some research to
retain the nicotine content but reduce the tars and particulates so
the smoke looks safer, even though it is just as addictive,
whereas, the same kind of research probably has not been going on
with marijuana cigarettes. There could be room for improvement
there.
Number 1933
MATTHEW FAGNANI, President, Worksafe, Incorporated, testified via
teleconference from Anchorage. Worksafe provides drug and alcohol
testing program assistance to 2,500 private businesses and public
sector organizations in Alaska. Their objective is to improve
workplace safety and reduce their customers exposure to liability
from employee legal drug use. He will focus his comments on the
concerns of many Alaskan businesses about the potential workplace
impact of the marijuana initiative as evidenced by a letter
distributed to committee members from several major Alaskan
employers. They appreciate the efforts of the House Health,
Education and Social Services Standing Committee in tightening the
language of ballot measure approved by the voters to prevent
manipulation of the law by those who do not suffer from terminal
illness. The majority of voters approved the ballot measure out of
compassion for the terminally ill.
MR. FAGNANI said unfortunately, the numerous loopholes in the
initiative language provide ample opportunity for abuses in the
law. House Bill 213 has corrected some of these flaws in the
legislation, and it provides more oversight by the Department of
Health and Social Services and law enforcement agencies and makes
physicians, patients and primary caregivers more accountable for
their involvement with medical marijuana. Furthermore, HB 213
requires physicians to consider other means of alleviating their
patients' conditions, besides marijuana, before recommending use.
These changes are significant improvements to the current law,
which is also consistent with the recent report by the Institute of
Medicine released in March 1999. However, Worksafe, Incorporated
supports further revising the definition of debilitating medical
conditions in the statute to exclude those who do not suffer from
terminal illness. Narrowing even more the scope of individuals who
can obtain a recommendation for marijuana is the primary objective
of employers.
MR. FAGNANI noted that in most cases, a terminally ill person will
not be interfacing with the workplace. However, the broad
definition of "debilitating medical conditions" in the current law
will potentially enable other persons suffering from severe pain,
nausea, seizures and other muscle spasms to obtain a recommendation
for use. Persons with these conditions may be in the workplace.
Even the recent accident by Senator Leman, caused by falling off a
ladder, might have qualified him for medical recommendation
according to the current definition of who can legally use the
drug; it is that broad. Although he commends the changes to the
law in HB 213 requiring physicians to evaluate other means of
alleviating symptoms of pain, in his view, it would be wise to
incorporate the requirements of a three physician review panel to
review the decision of a physician who recommends marijuana and
ensures that other means of alleviating pain have been explored.
MR. FAGNANI indicated that the other disturbing aspect of the
current statute is the loophole allowing for patients and primary
caregivers to sell or distribute marijuana to each other. It is
difficult for law enforcement to confront the sale of a Schedule I
drug when it is authorized in statute. Marijuana is a very
dangerous drug in general, especially in the workplace. Marijuana
impairs coordination and judgement which makes it the major cause
of accidents. Use of marijuana, even off the job, has long-term
residual effects which are of concern to employers. Even more
concern to employers is the position of the Alaska Human Rights
Commission, which is the state equivalent of the Americans with
Disabilities Act (ADA). They understand that the commission has
informally indicated that they will view a medical recommendation
for marijuana the same as a prescription for drugs. This means
that employers will have to make reasonable accommodation for this
condition in the workplace, even though the federal ADA standard
does not recognize medical marijuana as a disability.
MR. FAGNANI said although the statute does not require
accommodation in the workplace, it also does not prohibit workplace
accommodation. Use of marijuana as medicine should be severely
restricted. The recent Institute of Medicine's study conducted by
the drug czar McCaffrey, a report which many committee members are
familiar, recognized the medicinal benefits of marijuana, but not
in the smoked form. There is valid scientific evidence that does
not support the use of marijuana as a medicine in the smoked form.
This study supported further research of an alternative delivery
system. Marijuana is not a pure substance but is an unstable, very
complex mixture of over 400 chemicals, many of which are harmful
substances. When smoked, marijuana produces over 2,000 chemicals,
many of which cause cancer, and are present in higher
concentrations than in tobacco smoke. The Federal Food and Drug
Administration has not approved the medicinal use of smoked
marijuana because of great risks associated with smoking. Broad
use of marijuana as is granted under the existing law is very
dangerous, not only to the workplace but to society in general.
Number 1684
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Fagnani if there are any records of
accidents in the workplace due to marijuana use.
MR. FAGNANI answered that they have plenty of positive test results
that demonstrate that marijuana is used on the job. They do not
have any data that says the person was actually intoxicated at the
time of an accident or had a positive test. It is the general
scientific community's opinion that the affects of marijuana does
affect the workplace.
Number 1641
DON DAPCEVICH, Governor's Advisory Board on Alcoholism and Drug
Abuse, came forward to testify. The advisory board was opposed to
the marijuana initiative on the ballot, however, the Alaskans have
spoken through the process and have determined that they favor the
use of medical marijuana, and therefore, the board must support
that. The concern of the board is that they provide medical
marijuana where it is appropriate, while at the same time
acknowledging that Alaskans have also told them that they want
marijuana as an illegal substances through the recriminalization
vote, with a substantial majority. There are two sets of
directions, somewhat conflicted. It is obvious without HB 213, it
will make it difficult for law enforcement to enforce the laws for
illegal use of marijuana. Without a mandatory registry, it will be
very difficult, and there will be law enforcement officers who will
be unwilling to deal with the issue of illegal use at all. He
encouraged the committee to pass the bill.
SHERRIE MYERS, Beowulf Drug Education, came forward to testify.
She is a former federal law enforcement officer with eleven years
experience, including extensive work with marijuana and
investigating "marijuana grows." Her experience was in California,
and she verified that the marijuana does grow very large. She is
concerned with the amounts that would be permissible and has a way
to solve that issue. If they look at how much useable marijuana an
ounce provides, an average marijuana cigarette contains
approximately half of a gram of marijuana, and there are 28 grams
in one ounce. One ounce of marijuana would yield about 56
marijuana cigarettes. A conservative estimate would be four
cigarettes per day, so one ounce would last 14 days. She suggested
they figure out what a typical plant would yield and set the limit
at that number, which would keep a steady supply of marijuana every
fourteen days. She doesn't know where the figure of six plants
came from, but it seems like a lot considering the potential
yields.
MS. MYERS agreed with removing the ambiguity of being able to
possess a greater amount. She referred to people's concern about
the invasion of privacy with the registration, and she agrees that
the registration is critical to the success of this law. She
doesn't see the registration program any more invasive than getting
a driver's license or hunting license. People need to register in
order to have the privilege and protection of the medicinal
marijuana law.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Ms. Myers if she has any current clients
who have an interest in the proceedings.
MS. MYERS answered not at the moment.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Ms. Myers why she is taking an interest.
Number 1236
MS. MYERS answered that she has been in law enforcement for many
years and has seen what marijuana and drugs have done to people she
has worked with, and she sees no redeeming qualities in it.
MS MYERS said the law needs to be clarified so the officers on the
street know what a violation looks like.
Number 1131
ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant, Office of the Commissioner,
Department of Health and Social Services (DHSS), came forward to
testify. The DHSS has worked with law enforcement and recognized
for some time that there were legitimate law enforcement issues
involved with the passage of the marijuana initiative. The DHSS is
supportive of the legislation, with the caveat that there were
several amendments offered in the Senate HES committee which he
would like to bring before them.
MR. LINDSTROM suggested an additional amendment to the ones in the
Senate version which would change page 4, line 5 from "explored" to
"considered." He also pointed out that there is a fiscal note
attached to HB 213 for $87,700, but with the adoption of the
committee substitute and the amendment, they will provide a new
fiscal note for $57,000. The department has requested an increment
in the fiscal year 2000 budget to operate the register, but that
was denied by both the House and Senate Finance Committees, so the
fiscal note would replace that increment. In order for the DHSS to
provide the information to law enforcement, they do need that
support.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if there is a provision in the initiative
or the bill that charges the people a fee that would cover the cost
of administering the registration.
MR. LINDSTROM answered that there is a fee for the initial
registration of $25 and a fee of $20 for the annual renewal.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if those fees would cover the anticipated
costs of the program.
MR. LINDSTROM answered that it does not and referred him to Mr.
Zangri to answer.
Number 0919
AL ZANGRI, Chief, Vital Statistics, Division of Public Health, came
forward to answer questions saying that the department estimates
that those fees will recover approximately $5,000.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked Mr. Zangri how they arrived at the fees
because they seem low.
MR. ZANGRI answered that they are comparable to other fees that the
department charges for their services, and the initiative stated
that the fees needed to be reasonable.
Number 0836
DAVID FINKELSTEIN, Alaskans for Medical Rights, came forward to
testify. He noted that this is very complicated legislation, and
that the changes in SB 94 addressed concerns from patients, but now
the bill is a major rewrite of a citizen-passed initiative. Mr.
Finkelstein acknowledged that the legislature has the power to
amend initiatives, but he wondered should the legislature amend
initiatives. The supporters of the initiative feel that the case
should be more compelling than average legislation. There is a
higher standard that has to be reached before the legislature makes
changes.
Number 0688
MR. FINKELSTEIN agreed that the concerns expressed by law
enforcement today are reasonable. The supporters don't disagree
that there has to be a differentiation made between legal and
illegal use of marijuana. The proponents of this law and the
patients are the ones that will be the biggest loser if that were
to occur. They are concerned with the interest of medical
marijuana patients, not others who may try to get in under this
banner who are not legitimate patients.
MR. FINKELSTEIN stated that the supporters don't think legislation
is necessary. Most of the concerns can be dealt with through
regulations. The ability of the DHSS to issue regulations in the
interest of public health under the statutes is very broad. Other
changes that couldn't be made through regulations could be made
through the revisor's bill. The Alaskans for Medical Marijuana
would be glad to support a legislative solution next year on issues
that can't be resolved in those ways. They haven't seen any
evidence that something bad is going to happen. The critical thing
to consider is patients are going to have small amounts of
marijuana, not in public, and they are a small subgroup of a much
bigger group in the state of marijuana users in general. The
prosecution of these folks by the law enforcement officials, in
their home for small amounts, is virtually nonexistent. The
Alaskans for Medical Marijuana don't believe there will be any
disaster over the interim, if this law is allowed to go into
effect. The law hasn't had a chance to work. If they are proved
wrong, they are committed to go back and work on legislation and
try to find a solution.
MR. FINKELSTEIN stated that there is no issue about accommodation
in the workplace. The comments made that somehow people would be
using medical marijuana in the workplace just are not correct. The
law says clearly: no accommodation requirement in the workplace.
The comment was made that it should be said no use in the
workplace. That would be going too far because employers would
have a right to allow employees to use medical marijuana if
appropriate.
MR. FINKELSTEIN noted that the initiative states if patients
register with the state, they will be protected from arrest. If
they don't register, but are legitimate medical marijuana users,
they are left with an affirmative defense in court. If the patient
is a legitimate user, he won't be convicted.
MR. FINKELSTEIN agreed California is a model for registration, but
there are not mandatory registration systems; there are voluntary
systems. Patients are encouraged to register so law enforcement
officials know them and will not give them a hard time.
TAPE 99-51, SIDE A
Number 0015
MR. FINKELSTEIN indicated that AIDS patients often times don't want
to sign up because they don't want to disclose their situation.
There are many circumstances which keep people from registering
with the state. The Alaskans for Medical Rights feel that it would
be a travesty to have an initiative pass that legalizes marijuana
and then end up in a situation where someone with a doctor's
recommendation still gets convicted, because they are not
registered with the state. If patients have a doctor's
recommendation, they should not be thrown in jail. Patients would
be very disinclined to sign up because the original approach of the
initiative is to use the registration system to allow the DHSS to
have a way to verify who is a legitimate patient. The bill says
that the list of users goes further, in that it can be accessed
during a criminal investigation.
MR. FINKELSTEIN said that the whole idea behind the registration
system is to encourage patients to sign up because it will only be
used to check to see whether their card is legitimate or not. With
the loophole, that the list could be accessed at any time, and that
will discourage patients from ever using the system. Whether the
registration system is mandatory or voluntary the public interest
requires that they encourage patients to sign up. Even if it is
mandatory, there are plenty of patients who won't register. They
would rather fend with the laws as they are than register with the
state. They ought not to make it harder for patients to sign up.
MR. FINKELSTEIN noted another provision that will discourage
participation is where the doctor has to specify the condition.
Doctors putting confidential medical history into a state record is
completely unacceptable. The department does not want medical
records of patients included in their records. All the initiative
requires is certification that the patient has a debilitating
medical condition and might benefit from medical use of marijuana.
Listing the condition undermines the whole system and discourages
participation.
MR. FINKELSTEIN referred to the issue of the limits on caregivers
and agreed it is a reasonable concern, and they supported the
approach that the department chose to do in the draft regulations.
That approach is if someone has to be a caregiver for more than one
patient, he can apply to the department for a specific exception.
This bill does not include that exception, and it seems to be a
reasonable compromise on the issue.
MR. FINKELSTEIN commented that of all the states that have the
medical marijuana law, Alaska has the lowest limit. He also noted
that some marijuana plants are male plants, which do not produce a
significant amount of useable marijuana. No one can predict which
plant will be male or female. All the comments heard regarding the
amount of marijuana have to be at least factored in half because of
that particular consideration. The bill without the amendments has
a great solution; if someone wants more than six plants, he just
applies to the department. If the patient proves their medical
need, then the department decides whether or not he needs it. The
amendment removes that provision.
MR. FINKELSTEIN explained that patients can't get marijuana now.
They have to go out on the black market if they don't grow it. The
idea of setting up a distribution system ought to be in the public
interest, so the patients don't have to go out on the black market.
Precluding sale would be fine, but precluding distribution is not
realistic considering what the patients face.
MR. FINKELSTEIN referred to the forfeiture language. He said HB
213 allows protection against forfeiture that the initiative
intended. The amendments before them would remove that protection.
He said that any patient who is innocent, who doesn't get
convicted, deserves to have their assets returned.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Finkelstein that if they pass the
committee substitute, the seized assets won't be returned if the
person is innocent.
MR. FINKELSTEIN answered yes. It gets into a very complicated area
of law, but under the forfeiture laws involving drug cases, people
don't get a lot of things back. He can't say conclusively because
he is not a lawyer. All their standard says if someone is not
found guilty, he will eventually get back his assets.
MR. FINKELSTEIN said he doesn't understand why they raised the age
of the primary caregiver to 21. He urged the committee to look at
this with a higher standard than normal legislation. Mr.
Finkelstein reiterated that he believes the initiative ought to be
given a chance to work and doesn't see a compelling reason to
change it. The Alaskans for Medical Rights would be the first in
line next year if problems emerged, to try to find a solution.
They don't want anyone scamming on this or taking advantage of it.
The day that happens is the day they get discredited.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN mentioned that Mr. Finkelstein said at the
beginning of his comments that HB 213 was a major rewrite of the
initiative and wondered if this were challenged in court, would it
be found to be unconstitutional.
MR. FINKELSTEIN answered he didn't know; it is a legal question and
they might well be making the case to the Lieutenant Governor who
makes the decision. The elimination of the protection for so many
patients is more than a minor amendment, but he can't possibly
guess the outcome of that.
MR. FINKELSTEIN suggested a conforming amendment. If they delete
the words "debilitating medical condition" and replace it with
"symptom," changes need to be made on page 2 also.
Number 957
REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER made a motion to adopt the proposed
committee substitute (CS) for HB 213, version 1-LSO892\D,
Luckhaupt, 5/3/99, as a work draft. There being no objection,
Version D was before the committee.
Number 0996
GERALD LUCKHAUPT, Attorney, Legislative Legal and Research
Services, Legislative Affairs Agency, came forward to comment on
the amendments. He also had noted the conforming amendment that
Mr. Finkelstein had pointed out. He recommended that on page 2,
line 2 they replace the words "debilitating medical condition" with
the word "symptoms."
CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked if this would change the intent of the
referendum.
MR. LUCKHAUPT answered that with this change, the physician is
still required to state that the patient has been diagnosed with a
debilitating medical condition; he just doesn't have to disclose
what the condition is, just the symptoms. It still meets the
referendum.
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Luckhaupt if he sees any other
inconsistencies.
MR. LUCKHAUPT indicated that this is the same bill he prepared for
the Senate, and these amendments mirror what has occurred there,
except for the last conforming amendment, which the Senate missed.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE made a motion to adopt Amendment 1, which
reads:
Page 3, line 6
Delete the words "or prosecution"
Page 4, line 4
Delete "condition;"
Insert "symptoms;"
Page 4, lines 9-13
Following "concluded that" on page 9, delete all material
through "concluding that" on line 12
Page 4, line 5
Delete "explored"
Insert "considered"
Page 2, line 2
Delete "debilitating medical condition"
Insert "symptoms"
CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked whether there was any objection. There
being none, Amendment 1 was adopted.
CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL made a motion to move CSHB 213, version
1-LSO892\D, Luckhaupt, 5/3/99, as amended, out of committee with
individual recommendations and fiscal note. There being no
objection, CSHB 213(HES) moved from the House Health, Education and
Social Services Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1331
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee meeting
was adjourned at 5:23 p.m.
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