Legislature(1997 - 1998)
02/27/1997 03:00 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 27, 1997
3:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Chairman
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative J. Allen Kemplen
Representative Tom Brice
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Al Vezey
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
*HOUSE BILL NO. 146
"An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary
students; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 145
"An Act relating to certification of teachers."
- MOVED CSHB 145(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 121
"An Act relating to A.W. Brindle memorial scholarship loans; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED HB 121 OUT OF COMMITTEE
(*First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 146
SHORT TITLE: PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/97 381 (H) HES
02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 145
SHORT TITLE: TEACHING COMPETENCY EXAM FOR CERTIF
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/97 381 (H) HES
02/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/25/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 121
SHORT TITLE: WINN BRINDLE SCHOLARSHIP LOAN
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) WILLIAMS
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/10/97 292 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/10/97 292 (H) HES
02/20/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/20/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/25/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
SHIRLEY J. HOLLOWAY, Ph.D., Commissioner
Department of Education
801 West Tenth Street, Suite 200
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1894
Telephone: (907) 465-2802
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146
JAMES RATUZZI, Student
Kincaid Elementary School
4900 Raspberry Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99502
Telephone: (907) 245-5530
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146
LIZ FERGUSSON, Student
Kincaid Elementary School
4900 Raspberry Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99502
Telephone: (907) 245-5530
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146
CHRIS BLOUNT, Student
2050 Bogard Avenue
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-2745
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146
JOHN CYR, President
National Education Association-Alaska (NEA-Alaska)
114 Second Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-3090
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146
STEPHEN McPHETRES, Executive Director
Alaska Council of School Administrators
326 Fourth Street, Number 404
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-9702
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 145
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-14, SIDE A
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:00 p.m. Members
present at the call to order were Representatives Bunde, Porter,
Dyson, and Brice. Representative Green arrived at 3:01 p.m. and
Representative Kemplen arrived at 3:08 p.m. Representative Vezey
was absent. This meeting was teleconferenced to Anchorage, MatSu
and an offnet site.
HB 146 - PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING
Number 0072
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the first item on the agenda was HB 146, "An
Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary
students; and providing for an effective date." He said this bill
basically says that students, who receive a high school diploma,
should be able to pass a competency exam showing that they are
proficient in the basics.
Number 0115
CHAIRMAN BUNDE read from the sponsor statement, many of our high
school graduates are finishing school and receiving high school
diplomas without the skills necessary to survive in the world.
This obviously must not continue. Twenty-one states now conduct
student competency tests for a standard high school diploma. The
students in those states must pass a test with a minimum score
before they are allowed to graduate. Three states also have an
exit exam for an "Endorsed Diploma", which is basically an honors
diploma. Students not only have to pass the test, but must score
at a designated level, higher than the minimum required for a
regular diploma. Three other states go even further and have a
rigorous test for an "Honors Diploma".
Number 0167
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, under the provisions of HB 146, a student is
required to pass a competency examination in the areas of reading,
English, mathematics, science and social science before receiving
a high school diploma. The test would be selected by the
Department of Education (DOE). A pupil who failed this examination
and was no longer in attendance would be given a certificate of
attendance. It would indicate the number of years of attendance,
but would also show that the student has neither passed the
competency examination nor received a diploma. The pupil would have
the opportunity to take a re-examination, but it would have to take
place within three years after the pupil left high school.
Number 0227
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it is time for Alaska to take its place among
those states working to ensure that their high school graduates
have the knowledge needed to succeed in the world.
Number 0327
SHIRLEY J. HOLLOWAY, Ph.D., Commissioner, Department of Education,
testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. She was
testifying from Kincaid Elementary School in Anchorage and had two
students who were interested in the bill and wished to make a
comment.
Number 0289
JAMES RATUZZI testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. He
said he is 12-years-old. His mother agrees with HB 145 and thinks
it would be great. He agreed with his mother.
Number 0327
LIZ FERGUSSON testified next via teleconference from Anchorage.
She is 11-years-old and in sixth grade. She had not talked with
her mother, but thinks her mother would want to pass this bill.
Number 0360
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY thanked the committee for the opportunity to
talk about the quality schools initiative and their interest and
questions. She referred to the fact that last year, for the first
time, the national assessment of educational progress test was
given to the state of Alaska. Those scores were released at 2:00
p.m. EST and all the details were not available. She understood
that fourth graders in the state scored, in math, at about the
national average and eighth graders scored a little above the
national average. She said the DOE would provide more detailed
information once they received it.
Number 0424
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said in order for the DOE to contemplate a
fair test, which students must pass in order to graduate, the
public school system really has to be of quality, this includes
adopted and well-known standards for all students. This really
means that our professionals are prepared to make sure that all
students have an opportunity to learn these standards. At this
time, no state uses a commercially available test. There are 17
states with an exit examination, that DOE knows of, and they have
all been contacted for specific details on how they run a
defensible testing program of this nature.
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said tests are either developed by the state
or by a publisher for the state. The security of the test is
evidently a major factor which causes states to revise their test
frequently, most do so annually. Frequent retesting is not allowed
as this affects the validity of the results. States do not test
more than once a year. As you can see from the letter, which she
hoped was located in the committee file, DOE cannot use the
California achievement test as an exit examination.
Number 0512
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said every state which has an exit
examination has a state adopted curriculum. This means that all
schools must teach this curriculum and all students are supposed to
learn it. Every state, currently using an examination for
graduation, has an exit test closely tied to the curriculum or
standards with staff monitoring whether that curriculum and
standards are being taught. This is what allows the exit
examination to withstand the inevitable court challenges which will
occur when students obtain passing grades, but do not pass the
test. Studies say that students fail, even when they are actually
able to perform the skills on the test, due to anxiety or other
reasons. For that reason, many of the states have gone to a
multiple approach in their exit tests. They might have a student
do a portfolio, they might have a pencil and paper test and they
might do what is called, "mastery exhibition." Master Exhibition
is where students perform research, draft a well written paper and
present those papers to a community of school people.
Number 0607
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said there is not a state adopted curriculum
or state adopted standards in Alaska at this time. She referred to
the past committee meeting where she testified that Governor
Knowles had asked the state Board of Education to consider
imbedding language, in the regulations, that districts need to meet
or exceed standards in language arts, math and reading. The Board
of Education has directed the DOE to draft a regulation that would
say that and then present it for their consideration.
Number 0652
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said the state budget for this examination,
based on quickly done research, varied from a low of $500,000
annually to a high of $10 million after the test development is
completed. When students do not pass an exit examination,
districts are probably going to have to incur costs such as
remedial programs or summer school. The department thinks that any
exit test has to be part of a comprehensive, broad based assessment
that would start when children begin schooling. Children should
come to the schools with a good developmental profiling of where
they are in their development. Critical benchmarks and
interventions should be done throughout their schooling to increase
the probability that every student truly has the opportunity to
gain the knowledge and the skills to perform well on the exit test.
Number 0704
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said these tests are called high stakes test
because the consequences, to the student who does not pass, are
very high. Other states report that most students who do not pass
end up dropping out of school, their whole life affected. With
this knowledge, the state of Alaska would want to select or develop
an examination of the very best quality and one which would be the
most fair to all of the children in the school districts in the
state. There is a lot of work to do to make an exit test a reality
for Alaska.
Number 0750
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to her testimony that students that fail
this test would drop out of school. He envisioned that this test
would be administered late in the senior year, so there would be
little consequence to people dropping out of school.
Number 0767
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said if we had a broader based assessment,
assessments would have been done maybe two times before they ever
got to that exit test. These tests might have been done even
before they were in high school. We would know the probability of
them passing that exit test and would do a good intervention to
assist them in being able to pass it.
Number 0786
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to her use of "we" and said he imagined
that the school district would be doing the pretesting, the
benchmarking, as the student goes along but the state would only be
responsible for the final exam.
Number 0799
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said this is a possible way to design it.
She thought that some of the districts are well positioned to do
that, but many of the district are not and would need a great deal
of support and technical assistance from the state.
Number 0815
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER asked her, from her experience going
around the state, if she had the opportunity to look at the basic
curriculum throughout the state. Knowing whether or not there were
substantial differences in the basic course of Algebra One in Sitka
as opposed to Fairbanks.
Number 0841
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said there is a great deal of diversity in
expectations within the different schools in the state of Alaska.
Number 0851
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER commented that perhaps we have identified a
problem.
Number 0857
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON was under the impression that the
Japanese, the English, the Canadians and the Germans were all doing
a very standard test for their equivalent of high school
proficiency and asked her if she knew if this was true or not.
Number 0877
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY did not know for sure, but most of those
countries have a basic curriculum that is country-wide and is
expected to be taught to all students. It is probable that they
have an exit examination based on agreed upon learning.
Number 0903
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said those countries probably have more
cultural homogeneity than we do. Tailoring tests for cultural
minorities might be less of a problem for those countries. He
inferred that the commissioner would try to make a test to take
into account students' learning styles and their ability to respond
to standard tests. There would be a means of demonstrating
competency other than a paper and pencil test.
Number 0941
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said this was correct, any exit examination
has to have a performance part of the test. We shouldn't just rely
on paper and pencil. Based on the National Assessment of
Educational Progress (NAEP) test, the response of teachers who gave
the national assessment educational progress test; 30 percent of
the test was performance based. Students did scientific
experiments, manipulation of objects and that kind of thing.
Teachers reported that students were well engaged and said it gave
those students an opportunity to demonstrate knowledge in a
different way other than filling in a bubble. She thought this was
important for us to consider in developing a credible, reliable
exit test.
Number 0983
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said there will always be concern that some
districts and some schools will find a way to get all the kids to
pass, even though there isn't a competency in finding a test that
they will pass. He asked how the DOE could work to limit that
manipulation of the test.
Number 1013
COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said we would have to learn from other states
and their mistakes. She believed that it would be important that
we have agreed upon learning. She mentioned the state board is
adopting language arts, mathematics and reading as the core of the
state's responsibility for assessment. "By saying that districts
have to meet or exceed those, there would have to be, and we're
recommending, through our accreditation, new accreditation model,
that when we go in we would expect to see that there have been,
there are standards and they are the state standards in language
arts, math and reading. And if they are in fact being taught and
measured all the way along, then your exit test is in alignment to
the previous tests and what is actually being taught."
Number 1079
CHRIS BLOUNT, Student, testified next via teleconference from
MatSu. He said he is a junior at Wasilla High School and thinks
the test is a good idea, but it should not be popped on the
students. The testing should begin in 2001, current eighth graders
would be the first ones to take the test allowing teachers to
prepare the students. He said introducing this test would be
unfair to the teachers as well as the students. He referred to
students that have difficulty taking tests.
Number 1146
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this test would be phased in over at least a
four year period so students are aware of what is being expected of
them. The test would not surprise anyone. He said the concern is
that a high school diploma needs to retain some respect in the
public. Right now, particularly in the business community, a
number of people are saying that a high school diploma doesn't mean
anything because we have too many kids who can't read and write at
the high school level. People look at a high school diploma and
question how valid it is and what your credibility is. "One of the
things we're trying to do is help those students who might not be
able to pass the test, we want to encourage them to be able to pass
the test and the other thing is that we want to help students like
yourself, who could pass the test, by making their diploma mean
even more than it does now."
Number 1203
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said legislation is often provided without
talking to the people affected by the legislation. He asked Mr.
Blount if he had an idea of what his career goals might be.
Number 1227
MR. BLOUNT said he was thinking of being a teacher.
Number 1232
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said one of the other bills being considered
by the committee is that when a teacher comes to this state and
decides they want to be certified in the state, they are going to
get a test popped at them. If they can't pass that test, they
won't get certified and they won't teach. He said quite a few
professions and occupations have that reality. This bill tries to
get our high school students prepared for the reality that they are
going to be facing.
Number 1271
CHAIRMAN BUNDE assured Mr. Blount that this test would not apply to
him.
Number 1304
JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska (NEA-
Alaska), said his organization supports the principle that students
should achieve certain competencies before graduation, but they
could not support HB 146 in its present form. They believe that a
one time test taken by 17 or 18-year-olds, shortly before
graduation, is not the best way to achieve student standards or to
ensure student competency. They believe that a comprehensive
system of student assessment, followed with intervention and
remediation, is more likely to positively affect student
achievement. By requiring serious assessment and real
interventions at earlier grade levels for those students who are
experiencing difficulties, they believe schools and teachers can
develop strategies to strengthen learning.
MR. CYR referred to the commissioner's testimony and said that
beyond the regular assessments that classroom teachers do, there
are several natural checkpoints can be taken advantage if the state
wishes to require district or statewide assessment. Perhaps the
most natural checkpoint is when children enter school. Districts
all over the country assess incoming kindergarten children to
determine readiness to learn and their learning styles. A follow-
up assessment could happen at the end of the primary grades,
another assessment when they leave elementary school, an assessment
coming out of middle school or junior high and then certainly
assessments at the high school level. This would give teachers and
parents the information needed to provide appropriate programs to
effect change in those students who are not meeting the standards.
The careful use of portfolios of work and testing at critical
periods in the student learning cycle would help education
professionals, more accurately, determine students needs as well as
measuring proficiencies.
MR. CYR said NEA-Alaska believes that students and parents deserve
to find out, as soon as possible in the education process, if there
are any learning problems that need to be addressed. The program
of the sort that was outlined would help children and their
families, but only if we are willing to provide the necessary
support for remediation. It will not help the learning environment
if all we do is test kids. Testing must lead to a change in the
students' learning environment, if it is indicated. Smaller class
size, intensive remedial programs, increased utilization of school
counselors especially in the elementary grades, up to date
instructional materials and technology and enhanced parental
involvement must be the result of any assessment program. It is
these types of changes that will increase the performance of all
students, not just those who are at risk.
MR. CYR said, finally, we must work with community partners and
teachers to reallocate existing revenues to guarantee standards,
referenced in learning, in every public school. Our long range
goal must be to rebuild the education system so as to dedicate our
work to activities for improving teaching and learning as measured
by standards for student achievement.
Number 1469
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if he could infer that if we just had smaller
class size, school counselors, more parental involvement and the
rest of the list that all students would be functionally literate
when they received their high school diploma.
Number 1478
MR. CYR said you could infer that if we had smaller class size,
better instructional material, appropriate use of technology, used
school counselors to help those kids with problems that the vast
majority would be positively impacted. He said he could not
guarantee that every child who is born and comes to an Alaskan
public school would succeed with those supports.
Number 1500
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said most of the teachers do a great deal of what he
suggested should be done and they still have children who choose to
fail.
Number 1510
MR. CYR said, with all due respect, he did not know that children
choose to fail. In some cases society fails children, in some
cases parents fail them and in some cases schools fail them.
Collectively, as a society, we fail children, but he did not think
children choose to fail.
Number 1530
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said his experience was limited to high school and
post high school ages. He said there are high school kids who
choose to fail.
Number 1543
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said, as he understood Commissioner Holloway's
testimony, the way DOE would approach this testing is virtually
identical to what Mr. Cyr said in his statement.
Number 1564
MR. CYR said he arrived in the middle of her testimony.
Number 1591
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is the first time this bill has been
addressed, it would be heard again on Thursday, March 6, 1997. He
said he would entertain and encourage a request for additional
public testimony.
HB 145 - TEACHING COMPETENCY EXAM FOR CERTIF
Number 1622
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 145,
"An Act relating to certification of teachers." He said there was
a committee substitute as well as public testimony regarding the
committee substitute.
Number 1632
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to adopt the committee
substitute for HB 145 as the committee's working document. Hearing
no objections CSHB 145(HES) was now before the committee.
Number 1647
STEPHEN McPHETRES, Executive Director, Alaska Council of School
Administrators, was first to testify. He said, upon listening to
the testimony on HB 145 at the previous committee meeting, concerns
were raised. While his organization supports the concept of
teacher testing, they are concerned to the degree and to the
complexity of what the testing should be. The initial bill, a very
basic examination for future teachers coming into the state, would
be supported by his organization. As more complex ways of
evaluation for preservice teachers to the state are developed, his
organization becomes concerned. The concern raises out of the fact
that we need to have a substantial talent base on which to choose
competent teachers for our schools.
MR. McPHETRES said, at the April job fairs in the state of Alaska,
there were 820 potential teaching candidates that came to the state
for interviewing in 1992, in 1996 there were 672. For the number
registered with the Alaska teacher placement office; in 1992 there
were 1,182 and in 1996 there were 890. The trend is a drop in
potential candidates. As decision makers we can provide all kinds
of gates to get through, but it is still those administrators,
school boards, teachers and communities who have to find a
selection of competent people in the classroom.
MR. McPHETRES encouraged the legislature, as we look at setting up
another gate for people coming into the state, to be consistent
with other states in the Pacific Northwest. Many of Alaska's
teachers come from those states. If we look at various states
including; Oregon, Washington, Montana, California, Idaho and
Michigan, the current trend is that when a person completes their
graduate or undergraduate program in education they automatically
take the National Teaching Exam (NTE). Their score on this exam
determines states where they meet qualifications for certification.
He hoped that Alaska would look at staying consistent with other
states in order to remain competitive.
Number 1771
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if he was saying that the same vehicle could
be used to test potential Alaska teachers, if he was saying that
there should be some kind of reciprocity if potential teachers have
passed the test when they leave the University of Washington, they
would be grandfathered into Alaska.
Number 1786
MR. McPHETRES suggested that if they have taken the NTE somewhere
and have reached the score that Alaska deems as an acceptable
score, certification could be offered.
Number 1809
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this assumes that we use the same test.
Number 1812
MR. McPHETRES repeated that we should be somewhat consistent with
what other states are doing in order to remain competitive.
Number 1822
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked, without the state administered teacher
certification, if local school administrators have the tools needed
to be able to select competent teachers.
Number 1855
MR. McPHETRES said the scores give a certain amount of confidence
in the community. It adds one more level of validation that this
person is competent for the job. As far as evaluation tools for
the candidate, he believed the answer was yes. Hiring practices
are much broader than when he first started in administration back
in the early 1970s. Back then it was basically God who made the
decision. Now the local principal, with a parent group and/or
staff, sits down and goes through all the applications, does all
the screenings and then brings their recommendations to the board.
Number 1895
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he was not familiar with the NTE.
Number 1914
MR. McPHETRES said the test was developed across the country and is
nationally recognized by universities and states have used it
subsequently to determine certification eligibility. "Our
universities do administer that examination now, it would in
Alaska." It tests on basic knowledge and the area of the teacher's
expertise.
Number 1930
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked, in his opinion as a school
administrator, if the NTE would serve the function that is being
purported in this bill. He asked if the NTE was ever considered
for the state of Alaska's exam.
MR. McPHETRES said the teacher certification task force has
discussed this exam. Universities administer that exam.
Number 1959
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN presented a scenario where he is interested
in hiring someone in a technical specialty such as current
technology, computer science or multi-media. He asked if, before
that person comes in and teaches in the classroom, they needed a
teacher's certificate.
Number 1980
MR. McPHETRES said they need a teaching certificate if they are
going to be a full time teacher in control of the classroom. There
are recognized expert certificates that often can be given for
short term periods. He said there are computer specialists located
in most schools in major municipalities and added that the district
wide teachers are also certified for technology.
Number 2004
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN enhanced his scenario that someone in the
computer industry, who is involved with multi-media, is interested
in sharing his knowledge with youth. This person has offered to
teach classes for a year. He asked if they would be required to
have a teaching certificate to do that.
Number 2030
MR. McPHETRES said they would not be required to have a teaching
certificate as long as they were under the supervision of another
certified teacher. If you were a district-wide technology
specialist and a computer industry person wanted to come in to
teach, a deal could be worked out where the computer industry
person could come in for an hour here and there. It could be
worked out to accommodate that person. The computer industry
person could not teach if they were going to be in complete control
of the class. The unfortunate part is that we are looking at
alternative ways for people to get into the teaching field without
going through a four year degree program. He mentioned that
several people are interested in doing this. He referred to a
person involved in real estate and business and said that person
has to go through all the preliminary preparation courses that a
freshman in college has to go through.
Number 2085
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if this proposed examination would be
a barrier to what they are trying to do.
Number 2091
MR. McPHETRES said it would not be a barrier. People should be
able to demonstrate a basic skill in all these areas.
Number 2100
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he is not necessarily opposed to alternative
ways to certification, but we have experienced people who are
experts in the field who are lousy teachers. He did not think that
public schools were a place where we should allow people to hobby
teach if they cannot demonstrate a good job of teaching as well as
skills. He was not referring to anyone cited as an example in
testimony. It is essential for a good teacher to have good subject
matter depth, but there is a difference between having subject
matter depth and being a good teacher.
Number 2187
MR. McPHETRES said a few years ago there was an alternative route
to certification. He believed only four individuals took advantage
of it. They went through a significant assessment examination to
determine their personal skills in working with children. They
were also involved in a mentoring program as well as some
university things. The lack of interest set that program aside.
Number 2150
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said three out of his five children are
teachers in Oregon and California. In both states they have been
hired to teach certain subjects, but for various circumstances they
have been asked to teach other subjects of which they are not
experts. He asked if Alaska did the same thing. He asked whether
a person who passed a specific test, based on their ability to
teach science, might be asked to teach physical education or
something that they might not be qualified teaching.
Number 2187
MR. McPHETRES said this happens, particularly in the rural schools.
He referred to another example where this happened and said it is
one of the things you have to do in order to fill out the
curriculum for the kids.
Number 2200
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said, "my concern is if that's the case, would
it be an Achilles heel in the program to find whatever is the
easiest test to pass to qualify there and then say, hey, but really
I'm a science teacher or a math teacher or something. This is
obviously taking this to an extreme, but I think you see where my
concern is."
Number 2214
MR. McPHETRES said all of us major in a discipline as we go through
a college or university system and we should be able to demonstrate
our mastery of our knowledge, whether it is orals or something
else. In real life we do different things, so he did not believe
that it is critical enough that there should be any discrimination
between what they've tested and where they are actually working.
Number 2236
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there should be a higher level of concern for
the physical education teacher teaching science.
Number 2239
MR. McPHETRES said, in previous legislation, they are hoping to
address that issue.
TAPE 97-14, SIDE B
Number 0000
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, as he reads CSHB 145(HES), it gives DOE
the flexibility to incorporate NTE, devise another test or find a
test that incorporates the basic levels of competency in teaching
and general subjects included in the state's core curriculum. He
said this core curriculum will have to be developed. Alaska needs
to get in line with other states that recognize this testing as a
necessity.
Number 0082
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said if we use an existing test or test vehicle, the
fiscal note would be examined in detail by the House Finance
Standing Committee.
Number 0100
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to the last meeting and said there
was some mention of the appropriateness of inserting, "Type A",
before, "teacher certificate" . He got the impression that the
language was an appropriate adjustment to make. He asked why "Type
A" was not inserted in CSHB 145(HES).
Number 0141
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said regulation 4 AAC 12.020 reads that a regular
certificate is a Type A, there is an assurance that what we are
talking about is already in regulation.
Number 0175
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to Type C and D teaching
certificates.
Number 0178
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said CSHB 145(HES) will affect only Type A
certificates which de facto affects Type B teaching certificates.
Type C and D would not come under the provisions of this bill.
Type C involve speech therapists, counselors and that sort of
thing. Type D involve vocational education people.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that a teaching certificate is not
required for those categories.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said Type C and D are teaching certificates, but
they're different types of teaching certificates. In his mind they
are not classroom teachers. This bill addresses the vast majority
of teachers who will be at the blackboard.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked where the distinction between the Type
A and Type C and D was included in the language of the bill.
Number 0266
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to page 1, Section 2(i), "for an initial
regular teacher certificate" and said that is defined in regulation
as a Type A teaching certificate.
Number 0304
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that a regular teaching
certificate is a Type A.
Number 0361
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move CSHB 145(HES) with
attached fiscal notes and individual recommendations.
Number 0382
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON objected to the motion. "At a time when we
are trying to make government smaller and smarter, we're this, this
is intrusive, there's times for, certainly for government to be
intrusive." This bill is an effort to manage the inputs rather
than the outputs of production. There needs to be quality
standards for the goods and services we require, but there is
always the tendency for the inexperienced manager to want to count
the number of paper clips. Pupil testing measures outputs causing
the organization and its resources to be tailored to that goal.
Several people in the education field have said that it is easy to
measure knowledge, but it is extremely difficult to measure the
art. Teaching is more difficult to measure than anything else, you
can only see it as it's being practiced.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he asked various administrative people,
from 20 different communities, if the school board and the
administration had the right tools to select competent teachers and
they confirmed that they did. There was some concern that another
gate to pass would make it difficult for the districts to obtain
teachers. Many of the school districts he talked with were dealing
with somewhat culturally difficult situations and they are very
interested in teachers who can relate to the population and the
culture. Those people do not see how an objective test was going
to help the key thing that they have to look for in a teacher.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he is most concerned by the fact that
CSHB 145(HES) did not test existing teachers. He said the one
consistent result from teacher testing, obtained from every group
he has been able to contact nationally, is that it provides
significant salary raises for all the teachers in the entire
system. Arkansas and Virginia could not find teachers who could
pass the test and work for the wage packet they had, so they raised
the incoming salaries. Those states then had to raise the salaries
for the existing teachers.
Number 0620
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said, with the national standard teaching
test, we have the very tool we need. Any district which feels that
they need more help, can apply this tool.
Number 0635
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this bill will screen out unqualified teachers,
letting a few pass while the vast majority will not have any
problem with the examination. He said, working on that issue for
two years, the same school board members who assure you that they
have the adequate tools to hire competent teachers asked for a
change in tenure because they had incompetent teachers they were
unable to get rid of without legislative assistance.
Number 0672
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to Representative Dyson's statement
that testing in unnecessary, yet it would make him feel better if
testing was done for existing teachers as well.
Number 0687
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he is wary of any profession that creates
an incumbent group and then sets up a barrier for the next group.
He referred to conversations with friends in the teaching field.
They told him that it is interesting that their profession is one
of the few where intellectual attainment tends to go down.
Pressures of the classroom, social concerns, dealing with student
difficulties and community relationships seems to keep the
profession from growing intellectually. Reluctance to test
existing teachers bothers him because it would protect a class of
people and ensure increased wages for them.
Number 0750
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said there is a fundamental legal problem
with establishing a standard retroactively. He said over time, if
we had this initial screening test, schools would encourage
existing teachers to take the test and use it as a guide for
inservice training. To apply it and then require a decertification
would create legal problems.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he viewed this examination as an initial
screening, much like the first test in becoming a police officer.
He said this is a standard written examination taken before a
person's talents, abilities and stabilities are taken into
consideration. There is great efficiency in having a general
screening test, it saves you a lot of time when you are looking at
other things.
Number 0847
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to craft guilds in the Middle Ages
which sought to limit the amount of participation in their activity
in order to maintain control and ensure that they received
significant economic benefits. The craft guilds were a major
barrier to growth of the free market system. He said this bill
seems to be something that the craft guild would look upon
favorably.
Number 0910
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, having had the opportunity to work on the
teacher certification task force for several years and as an ex-
teacher, when he looked at the qualifications that are demanded of
a teacher he would have had some questions about choosing the
teaching profession. His first teaching job paid $6,200 a year and
had he known the demands he would have questioned whether he should
have gone into another field. He said he hoped he would have gone
into teaching. He said we can lower the standards, we don't have
to raise the wages.
Number 0951
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said if there was the expectation that
salaries would rise, he did not think Mr. Cyr would have talked
about this bill.
Number 1000
A roll call vote was taken on CSHB 145(HES). Representatives
Porter, Brice, Green and Bunde voted yea. Representatives Dyson
and Kemplen voted nay. Representative Vezey was absent for the
vote. Chairman Bunde announce that CSHB 145(HES) was moved from
the House Health, Education and Social Services Committee with
individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes.
HB 121 - WINN BRINDLE SCHOLARSHIP LOAN
Number 1050
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 121,
"An Act relating to A.W. Brindle memorial scholarship loans; and
providing for an effective date."
Number 1050
REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE made a motion to move HB 121 with
accompanying zero fiscal notes and individual recommendations.
Hearing no objections, HB 121 was moved from the House Health,
Education and Social Services Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to conduct, CHAIRMAN BUNDE
adjourned the meeting of the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee at 4:05 p.m.
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