Legislature(1993 - 1994)
03/07/1994 03:00 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES
STANDING COMMITTEE
March 7, 1994
3:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair
Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair
Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair
Rep. Al Vezey
Rep. Harley Olberg
Rep. Bettye Davis
Rep. Irene Nicholia
Rep. Tom Brice
MEMBERS ABSENT
Rep. Pete Kott
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Rep. Gene Therriault
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
*HB 478: "An Act relating to the authority of mobile
intensive care paramedics and emergency medical
technicians to pronounce death under certain
circumstances."
PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE
HB 506: "An Act relating to student loans; to sanctions
for defaulting on a student loan, including denial
of a state occupational license or disbursement of
state money; and providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
*HB 354: "An Act relating to identification required upon
enrollment in a public school."
NOT HEARD - POSTPONED UNTIL TIME UNCERTAIN
(* First public hearing.)
WITNESS REGISTER
STEVEN O'CONNOR, Assistant Chief
Central Emergency Services, Soldotna
231 S. Binkley St.
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Phone: (907) 262-4792
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
BILL KRIEGSMAN, Captain
Emergency Medical Services
Ketchikan Fire Department
319 Main St.
Ketchikan, Alaska 99901
Phone: (907) 225-9616
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
MARK JOHNSON, Chief
Emergency Medical Services Section
Division of Public Health
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box H
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0616
Phone: (907) 465-3027
Position statement: Testified in support of HB 478
THOMAS SWAN, Paramedic
P.O. Box 83226
Fairbanks, Alaska 99708
Phone: (907) 488-3327
Position Statement: Testified in support of 478
(spoke via teleconference)
CRAIG LEWIS, President
Alaska Emergency Medical Services Association
1881 Marika St.
Fairbanks, Alaska 99709
Phone: (907) 456-3978
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
THOMAS NAROW, Chief of Service
Interior Ambulance and Rescue Squad
370 Old Steese Hwy.
Fairbanks, Alaska 99710
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
RONNI SULLIVAN, Executive Director
Southern Region Emergency Medical Services Council,
Anchorage
6130 Tuttle Pl.
Anchorage, Alaska 99507
Phone: (907) 562-6449
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
DAVID POTASHNICK, Assistant Chief
North Slope Fire Department
P.O. Box 69
Barrow, Alaska 99723
Phone: (907) 852-0307
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
JASON ELSON, Batallion Chief/Training Officer
Kenai Fire Department
105 S. Willow
Kenai, Alaska 99611-7745
Phone: (907) 283-7666
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
JOEY PAYTON, Emergency Medical Technician
Delta Rescue
P.O. Box 485
Delta Junction, Alaska 99737
Phone: (907) 895-4975
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
BRENT URSEL, Physician's Assistant
McGrath Health Center
P.O. Box 10
McGrath, Alaska 99627
Phone: (907) 524-3299
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
JANET NORTH, Physician's Assistant
Galena Health Center
P.O. Box 77
Galena, Alaska 99741
Phone: (907) 656-1366
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
GEORGE GILMORE, Physician's Assistant
Tenana Chiefs Conference
P.O.Box 309
Ft. Yukon, Alaska 99740
Phone: (907) 662-2462
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
WENDY HLADICK, Physician's Assistant
Galena Health Center
P.O. Box 74
Galena, Alaska 99741
Phone: (907) 656-1891
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 478
(spoke via teleconference)
JOE MCCORMICK, Executive Director
Alaska Commission on Postsecondary Education
3030 Vintage Blvd.
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7109
Phone: (907) 465-6740
Position Statement: Answered questions on HB 506
LYNNE SMITH, Committee Aid
House Health and Social Services Committee
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: (907) 465-6825
Position Statement: Answered questions pertaining to
Amendment 2 for HB 506
PAIGE ADAMS, Vice-President
University of Alaska Southeast Student Council, Sitka
6-B Lifesaver Dr.
Sitka, Alaska 99835
Phone: (907) 966-2244
Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 506
DON WANIE, Director
Division of Finance
Department of Administration
P.O. Box 110204
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Phone: (907) 586-3603
Position Statement: Testified on HB 506
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 478
SHORT TITLE: EMT'S AUTHORITY TO PRONOUNCE DEATH
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) THERRIAULT
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/14/94 2376 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)
02/14/94 2376 (H) HES, JUDICIARY
03/07/94 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 506
SHORT TITLE: STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES BY REQUEST
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/16/94 2416 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)
02/16/94 2416 (H) HES, L&C, FINANCE
03/03/94 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106
03/03/94 (H) MINUTE(HES)
BILL: HB 354
SHORT TITLE: I.D. REQUIRED TO ENROLL CHILD IN SCHOOL
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
01/10/94 2020 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)
01/10/94 2020 (H) HES, JUDICIARY
03/07/94 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 94-38, SIDE A
Number 000
CHAIR TOOHEY called the meeting to order at 3:07 p.m., noted
members present and announced the calendar. She then
explained that HB 354 would be was postponed until a time
uncertain.
CHAIR TOOHEY brought HB 478 to the table and indicated that
Anchorage, Barrow, Delta Junction, Fairbanks, McGrath,
Galena, Ketchikan, and Soldotna were on teleconference.
HB 478 - EMTs AUTHORITY TO PRONOUNCE DEATH
Number 083
REP. GENE THERRIAULT, Prime Sponsor of HB 478, addressed his
bill by reading from the sponsor statement. He stated that
HB 478 proposes to allow mobile intensive care paramedics
and Emergency Medical Technicians (EMT) to determine and
pronounce death under certain circumstances. He indicated
that certified paramedics and EMTs who are active members of
a certified emergency medical service may make a
determination and pronouncement of death if a physician is
not immediately available upon determining that the person
has suffered irreversible cessation of circulatory and
respiratory functions.
REP. THERRIAULT said currently when EMTs begin CPR they are
required to continue resuscitation either until the person
recovers or the EMT is relieved by either a medical facility
or physician, or the responding parties become physically
exhausted and are no longer able to continue, or their
physical safety is seriously threatened, or a physician
pronounces the person dead.
REP. THERRIAULT indicated that many times emergency medical
response members are required to continue unproductive
resuscitation for several hours because physicians and
medical facilities are not immediately available.
REP. THERRIAULT stated that HB 478 would allow an emergency
medical response member to declare death in situations where
a physician is not available and would help emergency
response teams respond to the emergency medical needs of
Alaska. He asked for questions from the committee.
Number 174
CHAIR TOOHEY asked for teleconference testimony. She also
asked those testifying to limit their testimony to three
minutes.
Number 176
STEVEN O'CONNOR, Assistant Chief, Central Emergency
Services, Soldotna, testified via teleconference in support
of HB 478. He stated that he had concerns regarding page 2,
line 19, of the bill. He suggested that the line be deleted
and recommended that the emergency medical technician should
only provide information pertaining to the death to a
physician who would actually sign the death certificate. He
also indicated that there are areas of the state that have
Home No Code Death policies and was concerned that the
legislation might conflict with that established protocol.
Number 250
CHAIR TOOHEY said Mr. O'Connor's concern was understandable.
Number 252
BILL KRIEGSMAN, Captain, Emergency Medical Service (EMS),
Ketchikan Fire Department, testified via teleconference in
support of HB 478. He stated that he was in agreement with
Steven O'Connor's suggestions. He indicated that the term
advanced cardiac life support techniques is referred to
several times in the bill and suggested that the word
cardiac be deleted.
CHAIR TOOHEY asked Rep. Therriault if specific regulations
would be brought up by the Department of Health and Social
Services (DHSS) or the Department of Public Safety. She
asked what the guidelines would be for EMSs.
REP. THERRIAULT stated that there would be some regulatory
"fleshing out" and he felt that statutes would not be able
to address that level of detail. He then said he had an
amendment that would delete the language that requires the
EMS provider to sign the death certificate and would change
the language to require the EMS to provide information
regarding the circumstances of death to the person who signs
the death certificate.
REP. BUNDE made a motion to adopt the amendment to HB 478.
REP. VEZEY objected.
(CHAIR TOOHEY stated for the record that Rep. Brice arrived
at 3:10 p.m. and Rep. Nicholia arrived at 3:13 p.m.)
REP. VEZEY asked if the amendment was numbered A.1
(8-LS1678/A.1). He was told by a number of members that it
was.
REP. THERRIAULT said that the change would require the EMS
to provide the information to the person who signs the death
certificate.
REP. VEZEY said the amendment did not read well and asked
for someone to read it in context.
Number 382
CHAIR TOOHEY read page 2, line 18, as amended: "The
paramedic or emergency medical technician shall provide to
the person who signs the death certificate the... name of
the deceased; presence of a contagious disease, if known;
and..."
REP. VEZEY said it sounded like an incomplete sentence.
REP. THERRIAULT further indicated that the words which must
be include were deleted. He said that it is an incomplete
sentence that is completed with 1, 2, or 3.
REP. BRICE read the sentence again.
CHAIR TOOHEY asked if Rep. Vezey understood the question.
REP. VEZEY said yes. He then asserted that the physician
would be held liable for the information provided by the EMS
who hadn't signed anything. He asked why it would be
preferable not to have the paramedic sign.
CHAIR TOOHEY said the only information being provided was
the name of the deceased, the presence of a contagious
disease, if known, and the date and time.
REP. VEZEY indicated that the aforementioned information was
very critical legal information with tremendous legal
consequences.
REP. THERRIAULT said it was his intention to have the EMS
provider sign the death certificate, but indicated there is
a system already in place through which that information is
provided.
REP. OLBERG clarified that any death not attended by a
physician would require a physician to sign a death
certificate, even though the physician would be required to
take a third party's word for it. He also said it was his
understanding that a death, not attended by a physician,
would result in an autopsy.
CHAIR TOOHEY agreed with Rep. Olberg.
REP. VEZEY said he was not comfortable with the amendment,
but would listen to further testimony.
CHAIR TOOHEY asked Mark Johnson to address the question.
Number 500
MARK JOHNSON, Chief, Emergency Medical Services Section,
Division of Public Health, Department of Health and Social
Services, testified in Juneau in support of HB 478. He
stated that there is a medical examiner system in place and
also that the new State Medical Examiner, Dr. Probst, was
opposed to the concept of EMS providers signing death
certificates. He maintained that the thrust of the bill is
to enable EMS providers to pronounce death as to avoid
extremely prolonged resuscitative efforts. He also
indicated that there were some administrative questions that
he needed clarified.
Number 541
REP. VEZEY asked if the amendment was still being debated.
CHAIR TOOHEY said yes. She called for a vote.
REP. G. DAVIS asked that the vote be held until further
testimony was heard, and said that Rep. Vezey's concerns and
questions may be answered during that time.
CHAIR TOOHEY agreed.
Number 576
THOMAS SWAN, Paramedic, testified via teleconference in
support of HB 478. He stated that the question of who would
have the authority to pronounce a patient dead in the
absence of a physician came up during a class that he was
teaching last year. He said he has been pursuing the issue
ever since as there was no clear answer in state law. He
said the passage of HB 478 would ensure that proper medical
procedures would be performed, that the EMS provider could
pronounce the patient dead, and that the EMS provider would
avoid any unnecessary exposure to a psychologically
debilitating situation. He also said that the measure would
preserve resources that may be needed in another emergency.
Number 640
CRAIG LEWIS, President, Alaska Emergency Medical
Association, testified via teleconference in support of
HB 478. He stated that the aforementioned concerns should
not stand in the way of the passage of the bill. He felt
the concerns could be addressed in regulation. He urged the
committee to support the legislation.
Number 670
THOMAS NAROW, Chief of Service, Interior Ambulance and
Rescue Squad, testified via teleconference in support of
HB 478. He stated that the bill would help address
situations where EMS providers are several hours away from a
hospital. He also indicated that the term advanced cardiac
life support is overly specific and explained that the
Interior Ambulance and Rescue Squad is licensed as an
advanced life support agency in the state of Alaska.
Number 713
RONNI SULLIVAN, Executive Director, Southern Region
Emergency Medical Services Council, Anchorage, testified via
teleconference in support of HB 478. She stated that the
issue has been a major concern of hers for several years.
She explained the danger that EMSs face and sometimes put
other people in when they continue emergency care on people
that are not "viable" because CPR has been too prolonged or
they were almost dead upon their arrival. She further
explained that her nightmare is that an ambulance would
slide off a slippery road as it was rushing an obviously
nonviable patient to the hospital and perhaps killing all
those inside and maybe others on the road. She said the
bill would allow for the best patient care possible and
would also remove a lot of the risk involved for the EMS
providers. She mentioned that the bill refers to paramedics
as registered and indicated that they are, indeed, licensed.
Number 758
DAVID POTASHNICK, Assistant Chief, North Slope Fire
Department, testified via teleconference in support of
HB 378. He stated that it was his understanding that the
proposal would require EMS providers to initiate care first
and then determine whether the patient should be declared
dead. He felt there should be provisions for the initial
withholding of care, especially in instances involving crime
scenes. He indicated that on page 1, lines 5-10, the
inclusion of physician's assistants and registered nurses
should be considered. He explained that the aforementioned
do provide care in pre-hospital settings. He further
indicated that on page 2, line 6, the term active member is
unclear and questioned how it applied to the EMS providers.
Number 808
JASON ELSON, Batallion Chief/Training Officer, Kenai Fire
Department, testified via teleconference in support of
HB 478. He stated that he agreed with the amendment. He
also mentioned that an active member implies that the member
is under current physician sponsorship and has a continuing
medical education program.
Number 820
JOEY PAYTON, Emergency Medical Technician, Delta Rescue,
testified via teleconference in support of HB 478. He
stated that the 1990's have been dedicated to the research
and development of quality treatment and equipment. He said
that he has, at times, had to work for up to three hours on
nonviable patients. He indicated that there is much
emotional suffering endured by EMS providers that have to
provide unnecessarily prolonged emergency treatment to a
nonviable patient. He further indicated that Dr. Jeffrey
Mitchell has clearly documented the mental trauma endured by
EMS providers from a prolonged resuscitation. He maintained
that the bill would give an EMS provider the ability to
declare death, would reduce unnecessary trauma to providers,
and would allow the "obviously deceased to remain dead with
dignity."
Number 900
CHAIR TOOHEY asked if there was further teleconference
testimony.
Number 905
BRENT URSEL, Physician's Assistant, McGrath Health Center,
testified via teleconference in support of HB 478. He
stated that villages in rural areas do not have state
troopers or physicians that can pronounce people dead. He
said that the EMTs and the health providers in the community
are obligated to perform whatever life saving techniques are
warranted, even when the case is obviously hopeless. He
felt the proposal would address some of the needs of rural
villages and would take the pressure off EMTs and health
providers in those situations.
Number 925
CHAIR TOOHEY said she agreed with Mr. Ursel and thanked him
for his testimony.
REP. BRICE asked Mr. Ursel if, as a physician's assistant
(PA), he could pronounce a person dead or sign a death
certificate.
MR. URSEL replied that he has been in touch with the local
magistrate who informed him that he can pronounce people
dead and sign death certificates.
Number 940
REP. G. DAVIS referred to the procedure of providing
information to go along with a body to a physician who would
then sign the death certificate and asked what his current
procedure was in regards to the aforementioned procedure.
MR. URSEL said that much of the information is provided to
the coroner or state troopers. He indicated that in a small
village a state trooper can pronounce death and then those
who were providing emergency care would give the information
to the trooper.
Number 973
CHAIR TOOHEY asked for testimony from Galena.
Number 975
JANET NORTH, Physician's Assistant, Galena Health Center,
testified via teleconference in support of HB 478. She
stated that PAs, nurse practitioners, and health aids are
often the only EMS providers in rural communities. She
related an experience that happened over the weekend where a
patient died after undergoing 40 minutes of CPR in the back
of an ambulance. She indicated that she was under the
impression that only the coroner could declare a patient
dead and that they spent five hours trying to find the
coroner. She asserted that the situation was distressing to
the family of the deceased. She felt the proposed
legislation would make her job easier.
Number 995
CHAIR TOOHEY said she empathized with Ms. North's situation.
She then asked for further testimony.
Number 997
GEORGE GILMORE, Physician's Assistant, Ft. Yukon, testified
via teleconference in support of HB 478. He asked if the
proposal would allow EMTs to declare death at the scene.
CHAIR TOOHEY indicated that after appropriate training EMTs
will have that authority.
MR. GILMORE stated that he heartily endorsed the intent of
HB 478. He explained that in the rural area he is in there
has been no one who is certified to pronounce death. He
said the issue has caused many problems and referred to the
disposition of the deceased and the hardship endured by the
family.
Number 045
CHAIR TOOHEY asked for further testimony.
Number 047
WENDY HLADICK, Physician's Assistant, Galena Health Center,
testified via teleconference in support of HB 478. She
stated her belief that if a coroner with no medical
background can pronounce death, certainly an EMS provider,
who is highly trained in emergency care, could also declare
death.
Number 064
CHAIR TOOHEY asked if there was further teleconference
testimony. There was none.
REP. BUNDE made a motion to adopt the proposed amendment.
CHAIR TOOHEY asked Rep. Vezey if his objection still stands.
REP. VEZEY said no, and withdrew his objection.
CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, stated that the
amendment was so moved. She asked if there were any further
amendments or questions.
Number 090
REP. BRICE indicated that he would move to pass the bill
out, unless Rep. Kott had an amendment to make.
REP. KOTT stated that he had a letter of intent that he
would like to have accompany the passage of HB 478 to the
next committee of referral. He felt the letter of intent
would be better addressed in the next committee.
REP. BUNDE stated that HB 478 as amended had a zero fiscal
note and asked if the letter of intent would have any fiscal
impact.
REP. KOTT responded no, but asked that perhaps a member of
the department should address the question.
Number 100
MR. JOHNSON stated it was his understanding that there would
be no additional fiscal note added as a result of the
accompanying letter of intent.
Number 116
REP. BRICE made a motion to pass HB 478 as amended out of
committee.
REP. B. DAVIS asked what the focus of the letter of intent
was.
REP. KOTT stated that the letter of intent would require
additional training for all EMS providers as to recognize
the signs of death, and would also require that there be
extensive notification to all emergency medical services
providers and agencies as soon as possible after the bill
becomes law.
TAPE 94-38, SIDE B
Number 000
CHAIR TOOHEY asked if the EMS providers have to be trained.
MR. JOHNSON answered yes and said a notice would be sent to
all the emergency medical services and medical directors in
the state informing them of the new law. Then it would be
the responsibility of the directors to ensure that the EMS
providers under their sponsorship are appropriately trained.
He said the DHSS would probably send guidelines as to how
the training should be done.
REP. G. DAVIS indicated that the letter from the Alaska
State Medical Association recommends that the word or be
changed to and on page 3, line 2, of the bill. He asked Mr.
Johnson to respond to the suggestion.
MR. JOHNSON said he felt the change would be going further
than necessary. He said he preferred the language as
written.
Number 086
REP. BUNDE asked that there be a technical change to
substitute the word licensed for the word registered.
REP. THERRIAULT said he was unsure as to whether the term
should be licensed or registered.
MR. JOHNSON explained that the regulations for paramedics
uses the word license. He also indicated that the words
licensed and registered are "almost interchangeable words in
our state." He said the word licensed is used on the
certificate given to paramedics in the state.
REP. THERRIAULT said that he would agree with any language
that the legal department suggests.
Number 133
CHAIR TOOHEY asked if the second item was addressed in the
letter of intent.
REP. KOTT said yes.
CHAIR TOOHEY asked the pleasure of the committee.
REP. BUNDE made a motion to pass HB 478 as amended out of
committee with individual recommendations and accompanying
fiscal note.
CHAIR TOOHEY asked if there were any objections.
Number 154
REP. VEZEY objected. He referred to page 2, lines 29-31,
and said he found it incredulous that EMS providers would be
expected to perform life saving measures under those
circumstances. He asked if there was a valid reason the
line was in the bill.
MR. JOHNSON agreed with Rep. Vezey, but felt it doesn't hurt
to have the language included. However, he said that some
of the conditions listed leave room for judgement.
REP. VEZEY said, "what brought it out of my mind is the
Alaska State Medical Association was advocating changing the
word or after (the) semicolon to and. And, I would
interpret that coming after the semicolon that it applied to
all the previous subsections, which I think would just be
ludicrous."
REP. VEZEY further commented that perhaps it would be better
to delete the entire sentence on page 2, lines 18-22. He
asked if there was more information that goes on the death
certificate than is listed on those lines.
MR. JOHNSON said there is additional information that
pertains to the cause of death. He felt it would be best to
have those already trained in signing death certificates to
continue doing so.
Number 257
CHAIR TOOHEY asked if Rep. Vezey's objections still stands.
REP. VEZEY withdrew his objection.
REP. KOTT objected and asked that the maker of the motion to
pass HB 478 as amended out of committee amend the motion to
include the letter of intent.
REP. BUNDE said that it was his intent to make that the next
motion. He felt it should be done in two steps.
REP. KOTT withdrew his objection.
Number 283
CHAIR TOOHEY called for the vote to pass HB 478 as amended
out of committee with accompanying fiscal note.
Representatives Bunde, G. Davis, Vezey, Kott, B. Davis,
Nicholia, Brice and Toohey voted Yea. There were no Nay
votes.
REP. BUNDE made a motion to include the accompanying letter
of intent with HB 478 as amended.
CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, said that HB 478 as
amended was so moved. She then brought HB 506 to the table.
HB 506 - STUDENT LOAN PROGRAM
Number 348
JOE MCCORMICK, Executive Director, Alaska Commission on
Postsecondary Education (ACPE), introduced himself and began
his testimony on HB 506.
CHAIR TOOHEY indicated that she was turning the gavel over
to Rep. Bunde. Rep. Bunde presided over the remainder of
the meeting.
CHAIR BUNDE explained that there were two proposed
amendments and indicated that amendment A.2 (8-LS1752/A.2),
submitted by Rep. Brice, would be referred to as Amendment
1. He then asked Mr. McCormick how the amendment related to
his suggested amendments.
Number 400
MR. MCCORMICK stated that the amendment would pertain to the
variable interest rate that the ACPE has recommended. He
said, in good conscience, he could not support the amendment
with a 15% cap. He maintained that to put a cap on the
variable rate would defeat the purpose of having a variable
rate.
REP. BRICE made a motion to move Amendment 1.
REP. TOOHEY objected.
CHAIR BUNDE maintained that if a student wants to take
advantage of low rates they "have to gamble on the high
rates." He said he did not support the amendment.
REP. BRICE agreed with Chair Bunde and indicated that was
the reason he suggested a cap at such a high rate. He felt
a cap at 15% would reach a certain level of compromise. He
said his concern was if rates go above 20% that students
would not be able to afford to go to school.
Number 470
REP. VEZEY stated that the interest rate on a loan is not
variable over the life of that loan, and the person knows
that rate to be set for the life of the loan. He said if
the cap is at 15% and the prime rate is 20%, the funds for
the student loan program will be depleted quite rapidly.
CHAIR BUNDE said the loan program would be shut down at that
point. He further stated, "Each year is a new loan. Each
year could be a different interest rate."
REP. BRICE said, "Which is the precise reasoning for having
a cap at 15%." He said the cap would prevent a person from
being locked in at 20%. He acknowledged the provisions for
refinancing but indicated that it's in the state's best
interest not to have the rate "blossom." He felt anything
over 15% would be a disincentive for students.
Number 538
REP. TOOHEY asked Mr. McCormick if there would be any time
in his career when he would advise an 18 year old,
unemployed student to take a loan at 20%.
MR. MCCORMICK said there has never been a time, to date,
that he has done that. He explained that if a student is
highly motivated in pursuing an education, the rate of
interest is not a consideration.
Number 545
REP. TOOHEY asked if Mr. McCormick would ever stop a student
from taking a loan out at 20%.
MR. MCCORMICK replied that he would caution the student as
to the income to debt ratio that would be incurred, but he
would not prevent the student from making that decision. He
further indicated that it is the student's choice as a
consumer.
Number 579
CHAIR BUNDE pointed out that if the cost of money is higher
than the interest that the students pay, the student loan
program will be phased out. He asked for further discussion
on the amendment.
REP. KOTT asked if there was a section on the permanent fund
dividend form that would allow the student to pay for
education "at today's rates."
CHAIR BUNDE said it was his understanding that the section
is designed for parents and further explained that it takes
quite some time to build up funds. He then called for a
vote to adopt Amendment 1. Representatives B. Davis,
Nicholia, and Brice voted Yea, and Representatives Bunde G.
Davis, Vezey, Kott, and Toohey voted Nay. Chair Bunde
announced that Amendment 1 failed. He brought Amendment 2
(8-LS1752/A.1) to the table.
MR. MCCORMICK stated that the amendment would require a
change to the promissory note and said administratively the
change is not necessary. He said that persons within the
Division of Finance who were present would testify and offer
language that would change Sections 9 and 10. He said he
would support those changes as a friendly amendment to the
bill as to allow for the kind of leverage needed prior to
the disbursements of warrants. He said, "If I read this
right, that says... the disbursement is due under terms of a
written contract with that person... which would mean I
would have to print in my promissory note that I had the
authority to do this. I just don't feel that's necessary."
He further stated that it is the psychology of the provision
that is the focus. He said students will stop and think
about putting a higher priority on their student loan
payment. He stated that he is opposed to the amendment.
CHAIR BUNDE asked if there was anyone present to speak in
favor of the amendment. He then indicated that the
amendment came from the ACPE.
MR. MCCORMICK said he offered a friendly amendment to amend
Section 9, which would authorize the Department of
Administration to withhold warrants from contractors. He
was unsure if the amendment would accomplish that. He
indicated that page 6, line 30, was under Section 10.
Number 716
CHAIR BUNDE asked Lynne Smith where the amendment originated
from.
LYNNE SMITH, Committee Aid, House HESS Committee, explained
that the amendment came from Dianne Behrends from the ACPE.
CHAIR BUNDE stated that he withdrew his motion to adopt the
amendment. He said if the amendment is needed, it could be
addressed in a future committee. He then asked for further
questions or testimony.
Number 741
PAIGE ADAMS, Vice-President, University of Alaska Southeast
Student Council, Sitka, testified in Juneau in support of
HB 506. She stated that she did not think the role of the
ACPE to be one of a financial advisor to students. She felt
that students are old enough to figure that out for
themselves. She asserted that if the interest rate was to
remain at 8%, the availability of loans would decrease for
future students. She said, personally, she did not want to
pay higher interest rates, but she felt that any loan is
better than no loan.
Number 780
REP. BRICE, as the only legislator on the committee with an
outstanding loan, related how the interest rates just
continue to stack up. He said he hoped Ms. Adams will have
a job a year after she graduates to make loan payments.
MS. ADAMS said that her permanent fund dividend is paying
for her schooling. She said after four hours of debate, the
council decided that going with a variable rate would ensure
the program's future.
Number 815
REP. TOOHEY said Ms. Adam's attitude was very responsible.
CHAIR BUNDE asked Don Wanie to testify.
Number 818
DON WANIE, Director, Division of Finance, Department of
Administration (DOA), testified on HB 506. He stated that
the division runs the state's payroll and accounting
systems. He further stated that the division would be
paying employees who may have wage assignments and vendors
who may have garnishments. He said the legislation would
affect both areas. He indicated that Section 6, subsection
C, may affect garnishments that the division already has in
place. He said the student loan garnishment would take
precedence, and the division would have to suspend the other
garnishment. He questioned the wisdom of the requirement.
MR. WANIE addressed Sections 9 and 10.
TAPE 94-39, SIDE A
Number 000
MR. WANIE stated that Section 10 would cause circumstances
whereby the division could receive a notification by way of
a computer file from ACPE saying that certain people are in
default on their student loans. He said the division would
then do a computer match against the vendor file and
subsequently deny payments to vendors. He said the division
has not in the past held payments to vendors without some
type of court document. Although he did note that the
Department of Law indicated that it would be permissible.
He felt there was more than one way to address the problem
and referred to the document he passed out titled "Comments
on HB 506." (See Attachment 1)
MR. WANIE said that, as written, the bill charges the DOA
with the responsibility of performing the computer file
matches and subsequent research to make absolutely certain
that payments are withheld from the correct person. He said
the ACPE would develop a subsection that would pass files to
the division, which would have a subsection that would look
into vendor files. On a day to day basis payments to
vendors would be scrutinized to avoid payments being made to
vendors who are delinquent in their loan payments. He said
the responsibility would then lie with the DOA to catch
those people.
MR. WANIE suggested that language be included in Title 14
that would have the same effect as current language, but it
would place responsibility for research and identification
with the ACPE. The ACPE would then notify the DOA of the
specific persons from whom payments should be withheld. He
said the DOA currently has a mechanism in place, both in the
payroll and vendor payment system, whereby if the DOA
receives a court order that requests payments be held from a
particular employee or vendor the payments are, indeed,
withheld. He suggested that the language in Section 10 be
placed in Title 14 and that the ACPE do the necessary
researching and documentation before the DOA processes them
through their existing mechanism.
MR. WANIE stated that under language already in Title 9, the
ACPE can get a court order to direct withholding of payments
from a vendor. He reiterated that there is already a
mechanism in place that would allow the ACPE to obtain a
court order.
Number 190
REP. OLBERG asked Mr. Wanie to define the term vendor.
MR. WANIE referred to the list from the Suggested Amendments
to HB 506 that was handed out at the previous meeting. He
said the ACPE suggested amending Section 9 so that only
disbursement of payments for goods and services provided by
an individual contractor would be withheld. He said the DOA
would not want to withhold welfare payments, longevity bonus
payments, and other payments that are generated by the state
system. He felt that the ACPE was focusing on payments for
goods and services provided to the state.
Number 233
REP. OLBERG asked if a person could be found under an
assumed name.
MR. WANIE responded no. He said the DOA can identify those
people who provide goods and services to the state if they
use a social security number (SSN) rather than an employer
identification number. If they use an employer
identification number as a sole proprietor, or if they are
incorporated and use an identification number, the DOA
cannot find them. He said the only matches that can be made
are with SSNs.
Number 278
CHAIR BUNDE referred to Mr. Wanie's suggestions regarding
Sections 9 and 10 and asked Mr. McCormick if he felt Item 2,
as indicated in Comments on HB 506, would be a feasible
option for the ACPE.
MR. MCCORMICK said it would be doable without considerable
additional expense. He said a computer tape match system
could be developed to match SSNs. He further explained that
the previously withdrawn amendment that related to page 6,
line 30, would reference the contractor not the borrower.
He indicated that he was mistaken in his earlier opposition
to that amendment and clarified that he now supported it.
Number 360
CHAIR BUNDE asked for further clarification regarding
contractor and borrower.
MR. MCCORMICK stated that under Section 10, subsection B,
the amendment would change the line to read, "The Department
of Administration may not disburse money to a person under
(a) of this section if..." He said the person would have a
contract with the DOA.
CHAIR BUNDE stated that Mr. McCormick's response clarified
the issue for him.
REP. VEZEY asked if the ACPE endorsed the amendment.
MR. MCCORMICK said yes.
CHAIR BUNDE asked if there was further discussion on
Amendment 2. He then asked for any objections. Hearing
none, Chair Bunde, stated that Amendment 2 was adopted.
Number 416
REP. VEZEY asked that his amendment be discussed at the next
meeting of the HESS Committee.
CHAIR BUNDE asked Rep. Vezey to hand out his amendment and
indicated that he wanted to be sure that Mr. McCormick could
review it.
REP. VEZEY made a motion to adopt Amendment 3.
CHAIR BUNDE asked Rep. Vezey to speak to his amendment.
REP. VEZEY stated there are several statutes that require
the employer to continue to withhold payments until further
order of the court. He indicated that those orders can
stand in perpetuity and it is an unreasonable burden on an
employer to keep track of an employee's garnishments if the
employee has returned to the company after several years.
He suggested that after the word court on page 5, line 9,
the phrase "or until the employment of the obligee is
terminated" should be added. He then said it would be the
responsibility of the obligor to notify the employer to
resume garnishing the wages of the obligee.
Number 483
CHAIR BUNDE asked for further discussion.
REP. BRICE related a scenario of an employee who has an
outstanding student loan that is in default and quits his
job.
CHAIR BUNDE interjected and said that Rep. Brice was missing
a step and added that the student has a loan in default, has
been put into collections, and his wages are being
garnished.
REP. VEZEY interjected that conflict arises when the
employee goes back to work for the employer after five years
and the court order is still in effect. He stated that
state agencies have "gone after" employers and have made
them liable, after the rehire, for all pay periods that they
did not garnish wages.
REP. BRICE said, "whether or not he's working or not."
REP. VEZEY said no, and further stated that the employer has
to honor that court order no matter how old it is. They
have to keep all their personnel records active to avoid
possible penalties.
CHAIR BUNDE reiterated the same scenario and further added
that the employer is expected to remember that the employee
had his wages garnished five years previously. He indicated
that Rep. Vezey's amendment would require the ACPE to notify
the employer.
Number 544
REP. BRICE asked if Mr. McCormick would have access to the
Department of Labor.
CHAIR BUNDE indicated that Mr. McCormick has access to skip
tracers that would track the student for those five years.
MR. MCCORMICK said the amendment would shift the
responsibility of tracking to the ACPE. He said he did not
object to the amendment.
CHAIR BUNDE asked if there were any objections to the
amendment. Hearing none, Chair Bunde stated that Amendment
3 was adopted. He then indicated that several committee
members had another meeting to attend and asked that all
interested parties attend the meeting the next day to finish
discussing HB 506.
Seeing no further business before the committee, CHAIR BUNDE
ADJOURNED the meeting at 4:25 p.m.
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