Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/20/1999 03:05 PM HES
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE April 20, 1999 3:05 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Fred Dyson, Co-Chair Representative John Coghill, Co-Chair Representative Jim Whitaker Representative Joe Green Representative Tom Brice Representative Allen Kemplen MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Carl Morgan COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE BILL NO. 98 "An Act relating to teacher tenure." - MOVED SB 98 OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 113 "An Act relating to a program of postsecondary education for high school students." - HEARD AND HELD * HOUSE BILL NO. 191 "An Act relating to charter schools; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD * HOUSE BILL NO. 115 "An Act relating to the University of Alaska; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD * HOUSE BILL NO. 195 "An Act relating to school construction grants and to municipal school construction debt reimbursement." - HEARD AND HELD (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: SB 98 SHORT TITLE: TEACHER TENURE SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) GREEN Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 3/10/99 463 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 3/10/99 463 (S) HES 3/22/99 (S) HES AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205 3/22/99 (S) HEARD AND HELD 3/22/99 (S) MINUTE(HES) 3/29/99 (S) HES AT 1:30 PM BUTROVICH 205 3/29/99 (S) MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE 3/29/99 (S) MINUTE(HES) 3/30/99 (S) RLS AT 11:50 AM FAHRENKAMP 203 3/30/99 (S) MINUTE(RLS) 3/30/99 735 (S) HES RPT 2DP 2NR 1DNP 3/30/99 735 (S) NR: MILLER, PETE KELLY; DP: WILKEN, 3/30/99 735 (S) PEARCE; DNP: ELTON 3/30/99 735 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DOE) 4/07/99 805 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR AND 1 OR 4/7/99 4/07/99 807 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME 4/07/99 807 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN CONSENT 4/07/99 807 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME SB 98 4/07/99 807 (S) PASSED Y14 N6 4/07/99 807 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION 4/08/99 828 (S) RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP 4/08/99 829 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H) 4/09/99 698 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/09/99 699 (H) HES 4/20/99 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 113 SHORT TITLE: POSTSECONDARY EDUC FOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) MASEK, Dyson Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 2/24/99 301 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 2/24/99 301 (H) HES, FIN 4/08/99 694 (H) COSPONSOR(S): DYSON 4/13/99 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 4/13/99 (H) HEARD AND HELD 4/20/99 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 191 SHORT TITLE: CHARTER SCHOOLS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) DYSON, Kohring Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 4/13/99 794 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/13/99 794 (H) HES, FIN 4/20/99 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 115 SHORT TITLE: USE OF UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA APPROPRIATION SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) BUNDE Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 2/24/99 301 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 2/24/99 302 (H) HES, FINANCE 4/20/99 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 195 SHORT TITLE: SCHOOL GRANT/DEBT REIMBURSEMENT SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) DYSON Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 4/13/99 795 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/13/99 795 (H) HES, FIN 4/20/99 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 WITNESS REGISTER JEANETTE JEAN, Legislative Administrative Assistant for Senator Lyda Green Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 125 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-6600 POSITION STATEMENT: Presented sponsor statement for SB 98. CARL ROSE, Executive Director Association of Alaska School Boards 316 West 11th Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-1083 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 98. JOHN CYR, President National Education Association (NEA) Alaska 114 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-3090 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 98. EDDIE GRASSER, Legislative Assistant for Representative Beverly Masek Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 432 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-3306 POSITION STATEMENT: Presented sponsor statement on HB 113. BRUCE JOHNSON, Director Teaching and Learning Support Department of Education 801 West Tenth Street, Suite 200 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-8689 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in favor of HB 113. EDDY JEANS, Manager School Finance Section Education Support Services Department of Education 801 West Tenth Street, Suite 200 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-2891 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 113. HARRY ROGERS, Superintendent Valdez City Schools P.O. Box 398 Valdez, Alaska 99686 Telephone: (907) 835-4357 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 113. ROBERT SEWELL, Student Resources Coordinator University of Alaska Southeast 11120 Glacier Highway Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-6359 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 113. DARROLL HARGRAVES, Executive Director Alaska Council of School Administrators 326 Fourth Street, Suite 404 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-9702 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 113. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 99-39, SIDE A Number 0001 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON called the House Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:05 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Dyson, Coghill, Whitaker, Green. Representatives Kemplen and Brice joined the meeting at 3:06 p.m. and 3:07 p.m. respectively. SB 98 - TEACHER TENURE Number 130 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the first order of business as Senate Bill No. 98, "An Act relating to teacher tenure." Number 0142 JEANETTE JEAN, Legislative Administrative Assistant for Senator Lyda Green, came forward to present the sponsor statement for SB 98. In 1996, HB 465 was passed pertaining to acquisition of tenure rights, and it created somewhat of a problem with making tenure portable. As it turns out, sometimes districts are not hiring people who would be good teachers in their districts. Because of their ability to carry their tenure from another district in Alaska, teachers are not being hired under the current law, because the districts only have from as late as October 15 to March, when letters of intent of hire have to go out. That is not enough time for evaluation, for development of a plan, and for the teacher to meet the guidelines set in that plan of improvement. MS. JEAN reported that statistics on a survey done by the Association of Alaska School Boards (AASB) show that barely over 10 percent of teachers hired last year were teachers with tenure. According to what they hear from the districts, that is largely due to those teachers having tenure already. It ties the hand of the district having such a little bit of time to evaluate and meet any deficiencies. This legislation takes away the portability of tenure. Tenure goes back to a three-year-time period so that if the teacher is hired on the fourth year, he would have tenure with the new district. If they have a break in service and go back to the same district, it is only a year to wait for tenure. That is reasonable because the district knows the teacher. Number 0376 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wanted to be sure that this only affects the tenure issue. MS. JEANS answered that it only addresses the tenure portability. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON commented that he wondered if the reason the districts were not hiring the tenured teachers was because they have too many years of service, and their salary schedule is higher. MS. JEANS answered that that is possible, but that would also include tenure which gets them that higher salary. She is sure that is a factor. Number 0462 CARL ROSE, Executive Director, Association of Alaska School Boards (AASB), came forward to testify. When they looked at tenure in the entire context of improving the quality of education back in 1996, they think they came up with a pretty comprehensive bill. However, on the floor of the Senate, they included an amendment that included the portability of tenure. Very little time was taken to see how this would impact the system, and he believes their survey shows that the portability of tenure is a hindrance to teachers wanting to move into urban areas. There is a large turnover in rural Alaska, and this issue of tenure portability is a hindrance for them because there is only one year to evaluate them in the new school. MR. ROSE noted that as they dealt with HB 465, they wanted to give as much time and provide some fairness so they said that teachers hired on or before October 15, would be treated as a full year's experience. October 15 coupled with March 15, which is when teachers have to be notified, leaves less than six months. The decision to grant tenure has to be made in that short time. The reality is that before school districts take the time to try to compress this time line, they will simply say, "If this person has tenure, and we're unsure, then perhaps we will look elsewhere." It is having an impact on teachers. The opportunity for teachers to be employed is being restricted. MR. ROSE referred the committee to the survey in their packet which shows only about 11 percent of the hires over the last two years have had tenure. These numbers exclude Anchorage, which in the last three years has hired 1,100 teachers, and less than 2 percent of those people had portability. If that is factored in to 523 respondents, it drops that number of 11 percent down below 5 percent. He doesn't believe that teachers are being served by this provision and urged the committee to support SB 98. Number 0644 MR. ROSE clarified the record on a letter he sent. He inadvertently put down that they had to notify tenured and non-tenured teachers by March 16. That is not true; they don't have to notify non-tenured teachers. They do have to notify tenured teachers by March 16. Number 0671 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE understands that administrators will have to be "on their toes" with a new teacher, but he believes that after three or four years, the amount of time is less for the building administrator to evaluate whether the teacher is competent. He asked why the building administrator would need another three years for an experienced teacher; it seems he could make that determination in a much shorter length of time. Number 0783 MR. ROSE indicated that Representative Brice raised an important issue. In many cases, fine teachers get recruited, and the issue of portability is not a concern in those cases, but it is when they don't know the people they are hiring. Because of the diversity in the state, the time spent in one school district successfully does not necessarily give them an indication of the level of success in another. A teaching experience in a larger school district is very different than in a rural school district. To assume that a positive evaluation in one school district translates to another doesn't follow. The question has to be whether the administrator is prepared to take that risk; to take that amount of time to ensure that this teacher is qualified. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE commented that it is the building administrator's job to take the time and that risk. He also believes that the administrators do know who they are hiring; that is why they are hiring them. Number 0880 MR. ROSE noted that four years ago no one asked if a teacher had tenure in the previous community, but now they ask, and as a result of that, he believes it is restricting the ability of teachers to get hired. There is a teacher shortage, and they want the ability to be able to hire people. Number 0917 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if there is any pressure on districts to be less than candid in a reference to another district. MR. ROSE agreed that is a delicate area. "Suffice it to say, you find a number of good references on paper with a tag line 'If you have any concerns, please call me.' At that time they may divulge more information. I think what happens when we go out--in fact when this portability issue first came up, there was a tag line that came along that says, 'If portability is going to be allowed to happen, can we have access to the personnel files?' because that was a real issue." That creates other concerns. If they are going to hire someone with tenure, and they are looking for positive references, they want to be able to see exactly what their background has been. That is a cloudy area. The issue of portability because of the conflict that comes with it is a deterrent in terms of giving a teacher an opportunity to be hired in another district. It is a difficult area to get a positive response that is honest because of legal aspects that could come into play on a bad reference. Number 1081 JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association (NEA) Alaska, came forward to testify. He has given the committee quite a bit of material and their position statement. Previous testimony said HB 465 doesn't allow administrators long enough to look at employees. It is standard now for districts to ask whether or not people mind having their personnel file released. He suggested that people have a look at the personnel files and see the person's evaluation. MR. CYR referred to AS 14.20.149 which covers school board's evaluation system for teachers and administrators and noted there are statewide performance standards in Alaska, and the evaluation procedures are standardized. MR. CYR pointed out that if someone has four or five years of experience and attempts to transfer to another district, that district really has from the date of hire until the end of that school year to evaluate the teacher. Teachers are not tenured that first year. They can do two or more formal evaluations, they can do informal evaluations, and they can get a good look. If administrators aren't taking that look, then he submits that they are not doing their job. They are being paid to evaluate personnel. Before HB 465, there were three criteria used to let someone go: Moral turpitude, substantial non-compliance, and incompetency as defined by case law. To dismiss a teacher under incompetency is hard. That is gone. MR. CYR believes the reason tenured teachers are not changing districts is economic. Some districts like Juneau, Anchorage and Matanuska-Susitna have no steps. To move into Anchorage with four or five year's experience, could cost a teacher $15,000 to $20,000. Very few tenured teachers are willing to do that. Number 1333 MR. CYR suggested that if it is true that one year isn't enough, then go back to what it was. They get tenure at the beginning of the third year whether they change districts or not. As an aside, he referred to copies of the agreements of other government contracts, and pointed out that the longest probationary period any of them have is one year. Teachers have the longest probationary period of any public employee. He asked the committee to at least be fair here. Number 1417 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered if teachers ever get glowing recommendations just to get rid of them. Number 1468 MR. CYR said if administrators are giving glowing recommendations to people who are leaving, he doesn't know if it is the case, and he hasn't seen it. One of NEA's job is the duty of fair representation, and they sometimes represent people where there is some question as to their ability. In those cases, if they just resign and move on, they don't have a glowing recommendation; they have a clean file which basically says "This person worked here." He believes that with 1,500 to 2,000 people at the job fair in Anchorage looking for jobs, people are hiring the cream of the crop. They don't need to take a chance. He doesn't know of a tenured teacher who has come from one district with a good recommendation and good evaluation who has been unsuccessful. He isn't saying it hasn't happened, but he can't think of one. They are doing a much better job policing their ranks. It is much better since HB 465 was enacted. Number 1630 The Committee took an at-ease from 3:34 p.m. to 3:35 p.m. to offer a moment of silence to remember those involved in the tragic shooting at a high school in Colorado. Number 1697 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE made a motion to adopt a conceptual amendment to reduce tenure from three to two years. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked him what line it would be on. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated that it would be a new Section 2. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Ms. Jean how the sponsor, Senator Green, would respond to that amendment. Number 1820 MS. JEAN noted that it is important to have the very best working with our children, so it doesn't seem valid to compare teachers with other public employees. She believes that the district and the teacher need the three years for tenure, and that being granted at the end of the third year or the beginning of the fourth year. She doesn't believe that Senator Green would see this as a friendly amendment. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Rose how the AASB would see this amendment. Number 1907 MR. ROSE stated that the issue of extending tenure three years was hotly debated in 1996, but he thought they were dealing with the issue of portability. The issue of portability has been reduced to one year, in fact, less than one year, depending on when the hire takes place. They look at the issue of portability as being highly restrictive in terms of allowing a teacher to have an opportunity to seek employment outside their own district. In the context of portability, he believes that three years is not part of the discussion. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE responded that portability was discussed in HB 465 as well. He suggested the title of the bill includes teacher tenure so there is not any type of limitation that they are discussing here. This way it would be the same for new teachers as well as tenured teachers moving along. Number 2015 CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL objected to the amendment. A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Brice and Kemplen voted for the amendment. Representatives Whitaker, Green, Coghill and Dyson voted against it. Therefore, the conceptual amendment failed by a vote of 4-2. Number 2024 CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL made a motion to move SB 98 from the committee with individual recommendations and attached zero fiscal note. Number 2033 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE objected. Number 2055 A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Brice and Kemplen voted against moving the bill. Representatives Whitaker, Green, Coghill and Dyson voted for it. Therefore, SB 98 moved from the House Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee by a vote of 4-2. HB 113 - POSTSECONDARY EDUC FOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS Number 2087 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the next order of business as House Bill No. 113, "An Act relating to a program of postsecondary education for high school students." Number 2090 EDDIE GRASSER, Legislative Assistant for Representative Beverly Masek, came forward and presented another proposed committee substitute, version I. Number 2108 CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL made a motion to adopt the proposed committee substitute (CS) for HB 113, version 1-LSO461\I, Ford, 4/20/99, as a work draft. There being no objection, Version I was before the committee. The committee took an at-ease from 3:46 p.m. to 3:47 p.m. Number 2128 MR. GRASSER reviewed the changes in the proposed CS. Page 2, Section 14.30.760 was changed so all high school students would be eligible to participate in this program, rather than just students in the eleventh or twelfth grade. On page 1, line 10, the CS changes the "shall" to "may" which the committee had adopted previously. On page 2, Section 14.30.770, it was changed to allow dual credit in both the high school and college. Several other changes were made throughout the bill to reflect that language. His office has discussed with Representative Brice's office about adding a grade point average (GPA) requirement. The companion bill in the Senate has a 2.25 GPA required to participate in this program. Representative Masek didn't incorporate a GPA because there are areas in the state where there are postsecondary opportunities that aren't necessarily academic in nature and provide vocational training. Her thought was that some of the high school students who may have their basic requirements out of the way, could opt to go to one of the vocational schools. They may not need a real high GPA because it is not an academic endeavor. Number 2249 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated that his school district suggested that there should be some type of assurance that the student is capable of taking college-level courses. There are several ways to address that issue; his approach was a 3.0 GPA which was recommended by his school district. He agrees they don't want to prohibit the vocational education programs. His alternative instead of a 3.0 GPA, would be a 3.0 GPA with the ability of the building administrator to waive that requirement, or a dual track: Have one GPA for academic classes and another for vocational classes. MR. GRASSER had discussed those thoughts with Representative Masek, and she would entertain a dual track GPA. TAPE 99-39, SIDE B Number 2332 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if they had an amendment for the GPA. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE answered that he had an amendment for the 3.0 GPA, but the dual GPA idea just came up right before the meeting. He will work on it. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked for clarification on whether Section 2, AS 14.03.080(b) is affected by Section 14.30.760(b). Number 2244 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON replied he didn't believe they were linked. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked if the school districts make counseling services regarding the risks and possible consequences would be for the academic courses. MR. GRASSER replied yes. He understands that portion provides counseling services, but it also lets the student know that taking a class at the university is not quite the same as taking a class in high school. The idea there is to make sure that the students understand the differences, risks and problems involved of leaving the high school structure and entering the university system. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked if they would compute a ninth grader's GPA from elementary school. Number 2085 MR. GRASSER replied that their GPA would be based on their middle school GPA. In the bill, the district and the university could decide whether a student would be capable of attending at the university level through the counseling process. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL believes that individual recommendation by a teacher and/or the principal would go a lot further than a GPA in recognizing ability. Number 2029 BRUCE JOHNSON, Director, Teaching and Learning Support, Department of Education (DOE), came forward to testify. He read from a prepared statement: The State Board of Education supports this bill and supports the expansion of educational opportunities for students. In our estimation, this is a positive concept that can benefit many students and clearly there is lots of evidence to suggest that some high school students clearly are capable of enjoying a positive university experience while still in high school. While the initial reading of the bill is obvious where we have large university campuses in Alaska. We also believe that this will spur some real creative opportunities for rural students who may have a more limited curriculum available to them when they rely only on local district programming. Whatever the outcome of this bill or similar bills, we would encourage the honoring of existing programs that have occurred in the state. There are many real creative and significant partnerships between local communities and their local university that have evolved over many years. Some are highly unique to their particular situation, but they are working and therefore we would hope that you would give some consideration to their continuance. Finally, the appropriation that is outlined in the bill will undoubtedly encourage the expansion of educational opportunities for students. Because there is an indication an appropriation would be forthcoming, we suspect that local school districts will support this concept to the extent that tuition is available through the reimbursement out of the foundation program. We hope that is a correct reading of the bill, and that there would be an appropriation that would be available to the department or local school districts. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if there is a fiscal note with this bill. Number 1926 EDDY JEANS, Manager, School Finance Section, Education Support Services, Department of Education, came forward to testify. In their analysis of HB 113, they do believe that this will require a separate appropriation to fund this program. Those monies would then be allocated out to the school districts under this program. They have prepared an asterisked fiscal note which is not a zero fiscal note; it means there are some costs associated with this program, but at this point in time, the department doesn't have the information to project what that cost would be. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON assumed that it will be difficult to estimate, but he suspects there might be a commensurate reduction in adult basic education (ABE) needs or a reduction in the university's needs for putting these courses on. He asked when the DOE thought they could get a handle on the costs. Number 1858 MR. JEANS answered he is not sure how they would go about it. Under HB 113, clearly it would require a legislative appropriation under 14.30.790 which refers to funding for school districts and says "Subject to appropriation and in addition to funding received under AS 14.17," which is the foundation program that the monies would be made available to school districts under 14.30.790 so they would be establishing a new program that would require its own independent appropriation. He is sure they could come up with a starting point to implement the program, but he couldn't tell them how accurate it would be. They don't know how many high school students would be interested in participating in this program. The Committee took an at-ease from 4:08 p.m. to 4:12 p.m. Number 1797 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced they would rework HB 113 and vote on it on Thursday. Number 1778 HARRY ROGERS, Superintendent, Valdez City Schools, came forward to testify and to agree with the intent of HB 113. After listening to the testimony from last week, he heard some things and was concerned that something in HB 113 may affect what they are already doing. In Valdez, they are effectively blurring the line between high school and college. They have a partnership with Prince William Sound Community College, and it has worked very well, but it is still a fragile relationship. They are concerned that there are some things in the bill that could affect that. They have about 229 students in their grades 9 through 12 high school. Out of those 229, 104 of them are taking some college credit classes, even some freshman. Those 104 students will earn 935 hours of college credit this year. He will have the opportunity to hand diplomas to high school students who will be sophomores in college when they pick up that diploma. It has been an excellent program. MR. ROGERS expressed concern about the GPA requirement. He referred the committee to an envelope that was handed out which contains five descriptions of their two-year certificate programs. The students who take these courses are more of the vocational kind of student. The students can get half of the programs required for this two-year certificate while they are in high school. This may be the strongest part of their program because there are students in those programs who are not college bound. When they graduate from high school, they have half a college certificate and have gained confidence to return to the college and complete the program. They would be concerned if the committee started limiting who can take the courses. Number 1648 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Rogers how they tell a student that it is not appropriate for him to take a college course. Number 1641 MR. ROGERS answered that every student works with an advisor, most likely a guidance counselor in the school, and it is through that advice that they participate in the courses. He told the committee that if they asked the high school principal what the best part of this program is, he would say it is getting some students that probably aren't good students, and maybe aren't ready for school, and getting them involved in some of these programs, and they are college students when they get through. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON commented that they probably have the other side of that: Bright students who are bored in high school, and they get challenged by the advanced work. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN believes this is right on the edge of where they need to go with the education system. Number 1516 MR. ROGERS pointed out the list of academic classes available, and there are about 80 hours of credit available to their students. The most important ingredient in this program is that all of these college courses are offered on their campus, in their schedule. Those two things need to happen for a program to grow. That is where the delicate relationship comes in because there are lots of turfs involved, when college teachers start coming onto a high school campus and teaching or high school teachers becoming adjunct faculty teaching college courses in the high school. They have done a good job of meshing that partnership. Number 1460 CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL asked if there is a temptation to speed over some of the high school courses to get to the good courses in college or is that an issue. MR. ROGERS didn't believe that was an issue. As this program has evolved, they have found some seniors who have gotten into college level courses so heavily and realized they have gone too far. He believes that is a learning experience too. They have emphasized with their instructors that these classes have to be college level. Number 1354 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked Mr. Rogers if there is a set model in the state that is implemented to allow college courses. MR. ROGERS answered that there are some places doing similar things to what they are doing, but the relationship is going to have to be unique with the partner, and that may not be the same. He believes most schools approach it in their own way. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Rogers if it will be a problem for him if the older students return to the high school to finish their high school education. Number 1257 MR. ROGERS answered that he is concerned about it, but the change of "shall" to "may" has helped. He is not sure how they will address the issue of older students having access to the school. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if Valdez has an active adult basic education (ABE) program. Number 1221 MR. ROGERS confirmed that the ABE program at Prince William Sound Community College will have as many graduates this year as Valdez High School. The ABE program includes Glennallen and Cordova. Number 1200 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON sees Section 2 of HB 113 allowing a school to blur the lines between adult basic education and the high school, if they chose. MR. ROGERS prefers that the funding go to the ABE program, but doesn't think Section 2 of HB 113 is unmanageable. Number 1156 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked those who have concerns with HB 113 to work things out to revise this bill, and they will take this bill up again on Thursday. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE believes it will come down to whether there should be some standard for a student to participate in the program. He noted that Valdez uses a counseling screening process. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON also asked Mr. Jeans to work on the funding end of this. It was not the intention of the sponsors of the bill to have a separate line item appropriation. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN believes that allowing the governing bodies to make their own standards is a good idea. He asked Mr. Rogers if the difference between a community college teacher and a high school teacher is because they can't find, in some cases, qualified high school teachers to teach that subject, or does the postsecondary school require their own professors for certain classes. Number 0965 MR. ROGERS answered it is probably some of both. They try to get the high school instructor approved as adjunct faculty because then the students can take the course for only a $15 registration fee. If the college instructor comes onto the high school campus, then the students pay the $180 tuition for three credits. However, they have a scholarship program in place so that no student is denied. How they fund the appropriation is the key. If all of a sudden the school district has to start paying, it is over. They have 1,000 hours of college credit, and it would be giving them a bill for $50,000 to $100,000. The wording of that is critical, and he believes that they have worked it out in Valdez. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON mentioned that he believed Representative Brice raised the point the other day about the physical capacity in Section 2 conforming with the Americans for Disabilities Act, but he didn't see it in this version. He asked him to work on that also. Number 0805 MR. CYR supports this bill but after hearing the discussion he has become worried that the funding will come from education budgets that are already sliced too thin. This bill needs to be funded from the state level. Number 0612 ROBERT SEWELL, Student Resources Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast, came forward to testify and is delighted that they are considering HB 113. He pointed out page 2, line 3 where it mentions receiving an eleventh or twelfth grade education. It is not their experience that that level of experience is necessary. He doesn't believe this legislation means to exclude an able learner who is younger than eleventh grade. He recommends that the phrase "eleventh and twelfth grade" be struck and substitute "secondary education." DR. SEWELL suggested striking the section "equivalent of one school year" on page 2, line 15 and let it be an advising issue. Number 0280 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Grasser what they intended on lines 14-15. MR. GRASSER answered it deals with the different credit systems between schools. For example, in high school a student gets one credit per semester and in college a student gets three credits. Number 0207 DR. SEWELL suggested lines 14-15 be rephrased to make that clear. TAPE 99-40, SIDE A [Due to a tape malfunction, the following testimony was reconstructed from log notes and written testimony.] DR. SEWELL suggested that Sec. 14.30.780 (b) be struck on page 3 because for one thing, they don't have quarter credits. He suggested they substitute similar wording to the proposed memorandum of agreement between the Juneau School District (JSD) and the University of Alaska Southeast: "Payment of Costs A. Tuition - the cost of tuition and the associated expenses of fees and books will be paid by JSD upon billing by UAS following Semester Week - 3." DR. SEWELL is not sure of the intent of page 4, line 14 and suggested that that be revisited. He doesn't believe they would want to charge the students for disability support services, for example. DARROLL HARGRAVES, Executive Director, Alaska Council of School Administrators, came forward to testify. He supports the concept of HB 113 and agrees with Mr. Roger's testimony. He would like to see the bill reduced to one and a half pages. He provided the following points: Sec. 2 This is acceptable. The important thing is to allow local districts to make the decision about how over-age students attend. When these students attend they should be counted in the enrollment count with regular students and qualified to generate foundation funding for the school district. Sec. 14.30.760. Let local schools and the postsecondary institution determine the requirements for allowing secondary students to enroll in courses that can be allowed for both secondary and postsecondary credit. No grade point or grade level needs to be in statute. Delete paragraph (b). Local situations can determine the level of counseling and advising to be included in the program. Paragraph (c) is acceptable but delete point number (2). Paragraph (d) is acceptable. Sec. 14.30.770. Calculation of academic credit. This entire section should be deleted to allow local schools and the University to apply their policies. A three-credit semester course at the University based on the Carnegie Unit generally would be accepted by a local school district to be worth one half of a math credit to apply toward graduation. Sec. 14.30.780. Funding for postsecondary institutions. Delete this section and add something like: The school district shall pay the tuition established by the University for any classes in which secondary students enroll for dual credit subject to reimbursement by the Department of Education. Nothing in this law prohibits a school district and the University of Alaska from entering into local agreements to provide courses and programs with terms and conditions to which they mutually agree. Sec. 14.30.790. Funding for school districts. Delete this section and add something like: Subject to appropriations and in addition to funding received under AS 14.17, the department shall make payments to reimburse districts for university tuition payments made by the school district for students in dual enrollment courses. Sec. 14.30.800. Prohibited financial aid and fees. This section is acceptable. Sec. 14.30.380. Definitions. In definition number 2 change "nationally accredited" to "regionally accredited". CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Wendy Redman from the university about changing "nationally accredited" to "regionally accredited." WENDY REDMAN agreed in this instance that it should be changed. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced they will keep working on this bill to address all the concerns and suspended the hearing on HB 113. [HB 113 was held over.] HB 191 - CHARTER SCHOOLS CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the next order of business as House Bill No. 191, "An Act relating to charter schools; and providing for an effective date." He indicated that HB 191 would be held over for further hearing. HB 115 - USE OF UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA APPROPRIATION CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the next order of business as House Bill No. 115, "An Act relating to the University of Alaska; and providing for an effective date." He indicated that HB 115 would be held over for further hearing. HB 195 - SCHOOL GRANT/DEBT REIMBURSEMENT CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the next order of business as House Bill No. 195, "An Act relating to school construction grants and to municipal school construction debt reimbursement." He indicated that HB 195 would be held over for further hearing. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business before the committee, the House Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 4:58 p.m.