Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/28/1994 03:00 PM HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
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           HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES                         
                       STANDING COMMITTEE                                      
                         March 28, 1994                                        
                            3:00 p.m.                                          
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair                                                
  Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair                                                     
  Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair                                                  
  Rep. Al Vezey                                                                
  Rep. Pete Kott                                                               
  Rep. Harley Olberg                                                           
  Rep. Bettye Davis                                                            
  Rep. Irene Nicholia                                                          
  Rep. Tom Brice                                                               
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
  None                                                                         
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  SB 221:   "An Act relating to arrest of a person for illegal                 
            possession, consumption, or control of alcohol;                    
            and providing for an effective date"                               
                                                                               
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
                                                                               
  *HB 431:  "An Act relating to the payment of aid to families                 
            with dependent children in the case of pregnant                    
            minors and minors who are parents."                                
                                                                               
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
                                                                               
  HB 378:   "An Act relating to the Older Alaskans Commission                  
            and staff of the commission; changing the name of                  
            the Older Alaskans Commission to the Alaska                        
            Commission on Aging and extending the termination                  
            date of the commission; relating to the Alaska                     
            Pioneers' Homes Advisory Board; relating to                        
            services and programs for older Alaskans;and                       
            providing for an effective date."                                  
                                                                               
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
                                                                               
  (* First public hearing.)                                                    
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  JOE AMBROSE, Legislative Aide                                                
  Sen. Robin Taylor                                                            
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  State Capitol                                                                
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 465-3873                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of SB 221                          
                                                                               
  JEFF BUSH, Attorney                                                          
  Alaska Civil Liberties Union                                                 
  175 S. Franklin St., Ste. 318                                                
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 465-4150                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in opposition to SB 221                       
                                                                               
  NANCY USERA, Commissioner                                                    
  Department of Administration                                                 
  P.O. Box 110200                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska 99811-0200                                                    
  Phone:  (907) 465-2200                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 378                          
                                                                               
  JAN HANSEN, Director                                                         
  Division of Public Assistance                                                
  Department of Health and Social Services                                     
  P.O. Box 110640                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska 99811-0640                                                    
  Phone:  (907) 465-3347                                                       
  Position Statement:  Answered questions on HB 431                            
                                                                               
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
                                                                               
  BILL:  SB 221                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: ARREST OF MINORS FOR CONSUMING ALCOHOL                          
  SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) TAYLOR,Duncan,Miller,Pearce,Kelly,                    
              Leman,Little,Frank,Donley,Sharp,Halford,Zharoff;                 
              REPRESENTATIVE(S) Ulmer                                          
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/03/94      2451    (S)   PREFILE RELEASED 1/3/94                          
  01/10/94      2451    (S)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/10/94      2451    (S)   HES, JUD                                         
  01/19/94              (S)   HES AT 01:30 PM BUTROVICH                        
                              ROOM 205                                         
  01/19/94              (S)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  01/24/94              (S)   HES AT 01:30 PM BUTROVICH                        
                              ROOM 205                                         
  01/24/94              (S)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  01/26/94      2597    (S)   HES RPT  4DP 2NR                                 
  01/26/94      2597    (S)   ZERO FNS PUBLISHED (LAW,                         
                              DPS, ADM-2)                                      
  01/31/94              (S)   JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ RM 211                     
  02/07/94              (S)   JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ RM 211                     
  02/07/94              (S)   MINUTE(JUD)                                      
  02/09/94      2750    (S)   JUD RPT  2DP 3NR                                 
  02/09/94      2750    (S)   ZERO FNS PUBLISHED (COURT,                       
                              DHSS)                                            
  02/09/94      2750    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FNS (ADM-2,                        
                              DPS, LAW)                                        
  02/09/94              (S)   RLS AT 01:00 PM FAHRENKAMP                       
                              ROOM 203                                         
  02/09/94              (S)   MINUTE(RLS)                                      
  02/11/94      2786    (S)   3 RLS TO CALENDAR  1 NR                          
                              2/11/94                                          
  02/11/94      2798    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                             
  02/11/94      2798    (S)   ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN                   
                              CONSENT                                          
  02/11/94      2798    (S)   READ THE THIRD TIME  SB 221                      
  02/11/94      2798    (S)   COSPONSOR(S): DUNCAN,MILLER,                     
  02/11/94      2798    (S)   PEARCE,KELLY,LEMAN,LITTLE,                       
                              FRANK,                                           
  02/11/94      2798    (S)   DONLEY,SHARP,HALFORD,ZHAROFF                     
  02/11/94      2799    (S)   PASSED Y19 N- E1                                 
  02/11/94      2799    (S)   EFFECTIVE DATE  SAME AS PASSAGE                  
  02/11/94      2807    (S)   TRANSMITTED TO (H)                               
  02/14/94      2367    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  02/14/94      2367    (H)   HES, JUDICIARY                                   
  02/14/94      2389    (H)   CROSS SPONSOR(S):  ULMER                         
  03/28/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB 431                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: AFDC FOR CERTAIN TEENAGED PARENTS                               
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) KOTT                                           
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  02/02/94      2221    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  02/02/94      2221    (H)   HES, FINANCE                                     
  03/28/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB 378                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: REVISE OLDER ALASKANS COMMISSION                                
  SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR                                 
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/14/94      2072    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/14/94      2072    (H)   STATE AFFAIRS, HES, FINANCE                      
  01/14/94      2072    (H)   -ZERO FISCAL NOTE (ADM) 1/14/94                  
  01/14/94      2073    (H)   GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER                    
  02/24/94              (H)   STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102                      
  02/24/94              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  03/03/94              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  03/03/94              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                      
  03/04/94      2604    (H)   STA RPT  CS(STA)  1DP 1NR 2AM                    
  03/04/94      2604    (H)   DP:  G.DAVIS                                     
  03/04/94      2604    (H)   NR:  VEZEY                                       
  03/04/94      2604    (H)   AM:  KOTT, OLBERG                                
  03/04/94      2604    (H)   -PREVIOUS ZERO FISCAL NOTE                       
                              (ADM) 1/14/94                                    
  03/28/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-62, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE called the meeting to order at 3:08 p.m., noted                  
  members present and announced the calendar.  He brought SB
  221 to the table.                                                            
  SB 221 - ARREST OF MINORS FOR CONSUMING ALCOHOL                              
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for public testimony.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 050                                                                   
                                                                               
  JOE AMBROSE, Legislative Aide to Sen. Robin Taylor, Prime                    
  Sponsor of SB 221, stated that SB 221 would amend AS                         
  12.25.030 (b) to provide the ability for peace officers to                   
  arrest minors for consuming under the age of 21 without a                    
  warrant.  If the peace officer has a reasonable cause to                     
  believe that a minor unlawfully possessed, consumed, and                     
  controlled alcohol, the bill has the power of overruling a                   
  recent Superior Court decision that requires a person be                     
  caught in the act of consuming before an arrest can be made.                 
                                                                               
  MR. AMBROSE indicated that the proposal does not have a                      
  fiscal impact because it returns the law to its former                       
  interpretation prior to the Superior Court's decision.                       
                                                                               
  Number 062                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE said he appreciated the zero fiscal note.                        
                                                                               
  (Chair Bunde indicated that Reps. Brice and B. Davis arrived                 
  at 3:10 p.m.)                                                                
                                                                               
  REP. OLBERG asked if the committee had previously seen the                   
  legislation in another form.                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. AMBROSE asserted that there is a companion measure in                    
  the House.                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE pointed out that the companion bill did not pass                 
  out of committee and suggested that the committee had an                     
  opportunity to pass SB 221.                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 092                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked Mr. Ambrose if a minor who has been cited                  
  for consuming has the right to go through a court                            
  proceeding.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. AMBROSE said yes.  He indicated that currently it is the                 
  district attorney's directive that officers who encounter                    
  minors under the influence should issue citations rather                     
  than make arrests.  He said Sen. Taylor felt that the law                    
  never intended police officers to write a ticket to an                       
  intoxicated minor and then walk away.                                        
                                                                               
  Number 125                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for questions.  Hearing none, he asked for                 
  further testimony.                                                           
                                                                               
  Number 126                                                                   
                                                                               
  JEFF BUSH, Attorney, Alaska Civil Liberties Union (AkCLU),                   
  testified in opposition to SB 221.  He stated that he had a                  
  letter from the executive director of the AkCLU, RANDALL                     
  BURN, who was informed that the meeting was unable to be                     
  teleconferenced.  He distributed the letter to the committee                 
  and asserted that the AkCLU is opposed to the legislation                    
  and any legislation that in any way restricts constitutional                 
  civil liberties.  He said the bill obviously would expand                    
  search and seizure laws.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 174                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked Mr. Bush if it was against the law for a                   
  minor to consume alcohol.                                                    
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH said yes.                                                           
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY said the bill addresses a minor under the                        
  influence of alcohol or consuming alcohol.                                   
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH explained that the AkCLU does not object to a minor                 
  consuming as being a crime or a minor driving under the                      
  influence of alcohol.  He said the AkCLU's concern is that                   
  the proposal requires that an officer have reasonable cause,                 
  not probable cause, which is what the constitutional                         
  standard generally has been.  He said he is opposed to the                   
  standard the police officer must meet in order to make an                    
  arrest.                                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked if Mr. Bush condones alcohol consumption                   
  by a minor.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH said no.                                                            
  REP. TOOHEY asked, if a minor is seen drinking, or has                       
  alcohol on his breath, or is staggering, would that be                       
  considered probable cause?                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 246                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH said, "Well, I'm not going to sit here and play                     
  judge.  If they see them drinking, it's clearly probable                     
  cause.  In the past the courts have generally said that if                   
  you have an alcohol smell, but that might be enough for                      
  probable cause.  That is where there is a dispute, at least                  
  among the courts.  And, I, the AkCLU's position on that                      
  would simply be, it's up to the courts to decide where                       
  probable cause lies and not to simply say, `We're not going                  
  to require probable cause.  We're going to require something                 
  less.'"                                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked if a Breathalyzer test would be acceptable                 
  to the AkCLU.                                                                
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH said a Breathalyzer would be acceptable once there                  
  is legitimate probable cause to conduct the test.  He said                   
  if a person walks down the street and stumbles, that should                  
  not be reason enough for an officer to take the individual                   
  to the station for a Breathalyzer.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 282                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY said if a person looks drunk and acts drunk,                     
  they're drunk.  She said if they're not drunk they're having                 
  a "diabetic problem" and the officer needs to help them                      
  anyway.                                                                      
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH asserted if the officer has probable cause to                       
  believe the minor has been drinking, there is no question                    
  that they could make an arrest.                                              
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asserted that it was the court's interpretation                  
  that probable cause would mean actually seeing the minor                     
  consuming alcohol.                                                           
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH said it was his understanding that consuming is                     
  actually the simplest type of probable cause and speculated                  
  that if someone was stumbling down the street and smelled of                 
  alcohol, the court would say that was probable cause.  He                    
  felt what the court said is that merely smelling alcohol on                  
  the breath or in the vicinity of the individual is not                       
  enough to constitute probable cause.  He maintained that                     
  under SB 221 that would constitute probable cause.                           
                                                                               
  Number 324                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. G. DAVIS maintained that if he saw a minor drinking, it                 
  would not be probable cause; it would be proof positive.  He                 
  also indicated that the smell of alcohol on a person's                       
  breath would be reasonable and probable cause.  He                           
  questioned as to whether or not the term "reasonable" should                 
  be used in the proposal and suggested that perhaps it should                 
  be probable cause.  He said he had no problem either way.                    
                                                                               
  (Chair Bunde indicated that Rep. Nicholia arrived at 3:17                    
  p.m.)                                                                        
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for further questions.                                     
                                                                               
  REP. VEZEY asked Mr. Bush what would be considered probable                  
  cause if a person had consumed alcohol.                                      
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH said the question should be answered by a judge or                  
  those with expertise in this area of the law.  He said from                  
  what he understood, probable cause was deemed by the Juneau                  
  magistrate to mean more than just being able to smell                        
  alcohol in the vicinity.  He said it disturbs the AkCLU when                 
  legislation says that probable cause is no longer necessary.                 
  He asserted that because there was one bad court decision,                   
  200 years of constitutional law should not be thrown away                    
  because it is felt that probable cause is no longer needed.                  
  He said, "If you want to say that probable cause could                       
  consist of X, Y, or Z, the AkCLU would have far less                         
  concerns with that."                                                         
                                                                               
  Number 443                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. VEZEY said the question is, "What is an acceptable                      
  amount of proof?", not whether there's probable or                           
  reasonable cause.                                                            
                                                                               
  MR. BUSH said he could not address that question.                            
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE observed that there was no one from the                          
  Department of Law to offer the definition of probable and                    
  reasonable cause.                                                            
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY referred to page 1 of the court decision, that                   
  recounts the case of a minor found passed out with his pants                 
  down on a toilet located in the Senate building.  She said                   
  the circumstance did not arise from an "overdose of Hershey                  
  bars," and said the case was thrown out because the minor                    
  was not caught consuming the alcohol.                                        
                                                                               
  Number 501                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. VEZEY asked, as reasonable people, where would the line                 
  be drawn; at staggering or at merely reasonable suspicion?                   
  He asked if merely smelling alcohol on a person's breath                     
  would be reason enough for a warrantless arrest.                             
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if Rep. Vezey's question was rhetorical.                   
                                                                               
  REP. VEZEY said yes.  He said it was his understanding that                  
  if a person is incoherent and incapacitated, any police                      
  officer would have probable cause to make an arrest.                         
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asserted that the legislation is aimed at that                   
  very problem.                                                                
                                                                               
  (Chair Bunde stated for the record that Rep. Kott arrived at                 
  3:23 p.m.)                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 544                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for further questions.  There were none.                   
  He summarized the intent of the bill and then asked the                      
  pleasure of the committee.                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY made a motion to pass SB 221 out of committee                    
  with individual recommendations and accompanying zero fiscal                 
  note.                                                                        
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if she could make a statement.                           
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE said yes.                                                        
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if there was a definition in statute for                 
  reasonable cause.                                                            
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE said he could not answer that question but said,                 
  "there is certainly a definition in the legal cannon, as to                  
  reasonable and probable."                                                    
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS suggested that perhaps a definition should be                  
  crafted by Legal Services if there is no existing                            
  definition.                                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Mr. Ambrose if the definition of                           
  reasonable exists in statute.                                                
                                                                               
  MR. AMBROSE said he was sure the definition of reasonable is                 
  in statute.                                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 601                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. G. DAVIS referred to Statute 12.25.030 (b) and said the                 
  term reasonable cause is in statute.                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE said the term is defined in current statute.                     
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked what the statute says.                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked the committee aide to find the correct                     
  statute.                                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 655                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. OLBERG stated that while the committee waited for the                   
  information, perhaps they could discuss Mr. Sivertsen's                      
  qualifications to be a magistrate.  He said he would like to                 
  speculate.                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE said the committee would have to contact Legal                   
  Services.                                                                    
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS suggested that her concerns could be addressed                 
  in the Judiciary Committee.                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if there were any objections.                              
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT said House Judiciary would address that concern.                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no objections, declared that SB 221                     
  passed out of committee.  He then brought HB 378 to the                      
  table.                                                                       
  HB 378 - REVISE OLDER ALASKANS COMMISSION                                    
                                                                               
  Number 711                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Commissioner Usera to address the bill.                    
                                                                               
  Number 712                                                                   
                                                                               
  NANCY USERA, Commissioner, Department of Administration                      
  (DOA), testified in support of HB 378.  She stated that HB
  378 is a companion piece to two other proposals that compose                 
  Governor Hickel's "seniors package."  She explained that the                 
  legislation addresses many of the "housekeeping" issues for                  
  the development and efficient operation of the Division of                   
  Senior Services, which was created through administrative                    
  order.  The new division houses both the Older Alaskans                      
  Commission and the Pioneer Home Advisory Board.  She                         
  explained that the proposal would "clean up" several                         
  statutes associated with the merging of the commission and                   
  the board.                                                                   
                                                                               
  COMMISSIONER USERA further stated that the legislation would                 
  change the name of the Older Alaskans Commission to the                      
  Alaska Commission on Aging, which is consistent with the                     
  nomenclature that is common to federal matching funds.  She                  
  indicated that the committee substitute (CS) was the result                  
  of a difference of opinion regarding who should appoint the                  
  chairman of the two boards.  She indicated that there would                  
  be better advocacy for the groups if the governor appointed                  
  the chairman.  She said many of the senior's organizations                   
  supported the chairman being elected from the body.  She                     
  further indicated, as amended, the legislation was supported                 
  by all the senior's organizations in the state.                              
                                                                               
  COMMISSIONER USERA said the bill will facilitate the one                     
  stop shopping services that the state is trying to foster                    
  for seniors.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 770                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if there were any questions.                               
                                                                               
  REP. OLBERG asked Commissioner Usera if the legislation had                  
  "anything to do with the Division of Senior Services?"                       
                                                                               
  COMMISSIONER USERA said yes.  The Division of Senior                         
  Services houses both commissions, but because of the changes                 
  to their respective statutes, having them in a single                        
  division required housekeeping measures.  She also indicated                 
  that the proposal would make the chairman of each board a                    
  member of the other board.  She felt this would coordinate                   
  the two boards.                                                              
                                                                               
  Number 796                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if there was further testimony or                        
  discussion.                                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for further discussion.  There was none.                   
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS made a motion to pass the CS for HB 378 out of                 
  committee with individual recommendations and accompanying                   
  fiscal note.                                                                 
                                                                               
  REP. VEZEY objected and then asked for a brief at-ease.                      
                                                                               
  Number 817                                                                   
                                                                               
  (Chair Bunde took a brief at-ease from 3:34 p.m. to 3:36                     
  p.m.)                                                                        
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE indicated that there was an objection and called                 
  for the vote.  Reps. Bunde, G. Davis, Vezey, Kott, Olberg,                   
  B. Davis, Nicholia, and Brice voted Yea.  There were no Nay                  
  votes.  Chair Bunde stated that CSHB 378 was so moved.  He                   
  then brought HB 431 to the table.                                            
  HB 431 - AFDC FOR CERTAIN TEENAGED PARENTS                                   
                                                                               
  REP. PETE KOTT, Prime Sponsor of HB 431, stated that there                   
  is a higher rate of welfare dependency by teenage, single                    
  parents who set up their own residence than among those who                  
  remain at home.  He said HB 431 would amend state AFDC (Aid                  
  to Families with Dependent Children) policy to exercise a                    
  federal option that would allow for an eligibility criteria                  
  based on the place of residence of a minor who is a parent.                  
  He said the intent is to encourage minor parents to live in                  
  a situation involving continued adult supervision.                           
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asserted that the bill has the potential for                       
  reducing the cost of welfare in Alaska by moving minors back                 
  with parents who can provide financial support for the minor                 
  and the minor's child.  He said it is inappropriate for the                  
  state to be providing financial support if the parents of                    
  the minor can support them.                                                  
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT maintained that there would be savings of $32,600                  
  in Fiscal Year (FY) 1995 and $109,000 in each year                           
  thereafter.                                                                  
  Number 901                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked if the legislation was assuming that the                   
  parents of the minor are not receiving AFDC.                                 
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Ms. Hansen to come forward to answer                       
  questions.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 905                                                                   
                                                                               
  JAN HANSEN, Director, Division of Public Assistance,                         
  Department of Health and Social Services (DHSS), came                        
  forward and identified herself.                                              
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked Ms. Hansen how many checks a family would                  
  receive if the minor daughter of parents on AFDC gives                       
  birth.                                                                       
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said that is a difficult question to answer.  She                 
  said if the grandchild and mother live in the grandmother's                  
  home, it would be a single grant.                                            
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked if the AFDC payment would cover one adult                  
  and two children.                                                            
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said yes.                                                         
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked if the legislation was requiring the minor                 
  parent who is living on her own to return home, thereby                      
  reducing the payment by approximately $800.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 946                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said in that example there would be no financial                  
  impact.  She said if the minor parent is the only child and                  
  moves out, the mother of the minor parent would no longer                    
  receive AFDC.  The minor parent and the infant child would                   
  then receive a grant and the other case would close.  She                    
  indicated that the payment would then be somewhat less as it                 
  would cover only the minor parent and infant child in her                    
  new home as opposed to the grandmother, daughter, and                        
  grandchild in their home.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 960                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE indicated that if there is more than one minor                   
  in the home of the grandparent and a minor parent moves out                  
  with the infant child, then not only would the state                         
  subsidize the grandmother and remaining children, but AFDC                   
  would then be granted to the minor parent who moved out.                     
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN concurred.  She said there would then be two AFDC                 
  payments.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 976                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE indicated that the fiscal note for DHSS was                      
  $69,800.                                                                     
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT explained that the figure reflects the cost of an                  
  investigator who would evaluate whether or not the minor                     
  should be returned home.  He asserted that not every case                    
  would be automatically referred back to their home.                          
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE further indicated that another DHSS fiscal note                  
  was for $12,800.                                                             
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT said the fiscal note pertains to eligibility                       
  criteria and speculated that it reflects the administrative                  
  processing of the cases.                                                     
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN concurred.  She stated that the bill would add a                  
  new eligibility requirement and each month an eligibility                    
  technician would need to check to ensure the eligibility of                  
  the household.                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 007                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Rep. Kott, "Does your final negative                       
  fiscal note reflect those two positive fiscal notes?"                        
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT replied no.  He said, "...the $147,000, that's why                 
  I mentioned in the opening remarks, the first year you take                  
  the 147.8 in savings (indiscernible)... you should come up                   
  with I think $37,000.  And then subsequent years it                          
  multiplies up to $109,000."                                                  
                                                                               
  Number 020                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE referred to welfare situations where there are                   
  "phantom" husbands that come and go.  He asked Ms. Hansen if                 
  she anticipated phantom children coming and going in regards                 
  to AFDC to minors living with their parents.                                 
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said no.  She indicated that the phantom husband                  
  problem was addressed when the DHSS changed policy to                        
  include two parent families.  She explained that the                         
  division carefully monitors the families to assure that the                  
  child exists and is in the home.                                             
                                                                               
  Number 047                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE clarified that the minor parent is required to                   
  live in the family home and shows up only on the days the                    
  investigator showed up.                                                      
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN thanked Chair Bunde for the clarification.  She                   
  said that situation is a real concern.                                       
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE said, "Of course, if they're off on their own,                   
  they don't collect AFDC.  So, they're really not under our                   
  supervision, anyway."                                                        
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said it would be a requirement that the minor                     
  parents be at home more than 50% of the time.                                
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY pointed out that the minor would not benefit                     
  because the check goes to the guardian parent.                               
                                                                               
  Number 064                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE explained that the parent may have a vested                      
  interest in forcing the teen mother to come home once a                      
  month to please the investigator.  Then the minor would                      
  return to his/her home.                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked how the minor would survive on their own                   
  without a check or without money.                                            
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE said they could work.                                            
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT maintained that whether the minor parent is in or                  
  out of house, AFDC payments will still be made.  He asserted                 
  that the bill targets single, minor parents who are living                   
  on their own and receiving AFDC benefits when their parents                  
  are financially capable of supporting them.  He said he also                 
  wanted to ensure that the money is not being used for                        
  alcohol and drugs.                                                           
                                                                               
  Number 098                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE related a scenario where a family is not on AFDC                 
  and they have an emancipated teenager who moves out of the                   
  home and becomes pregnant.  He asked if the teen would have                  
  to move back into the home to receive AFDC benefits.                         
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN stated that in federal law it is an option to                     
  require the minor parent to live with her parents, unless                    
  certain conditions are met.  If it has been determined by a                  
  social investigation that the home is not safe and                           
  appropriate, the minor would not be required to live there.                  
  She explained that the opinion of the Division of Family and                 
  Youth Services is that most of the minor children in these                   
  cases would not be required to move back to the parent's                     
  home because they left dysfunctional situations to begin                     
  with.  Ms. Hansen stated that public testimony that was                      
  presented to a task force regarding the issue indicated that                 
  professionals in this field believe that most minor parents                  
  whose families are safe environments for them, actually live                 
  in those homes.  And, those minors who had issues of                         
  violence, incest, or a severe falling-out, lived away from                   
  home.                                                                        
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-62, SIDE B                                                           
  Number                                                                       
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN further indicated that additional investigation                   
  and case work would not result in any change in the young                    
  parents' circumstances.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 016                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. OLBERG asked if what he was hearing was that the                        
  epidemic of teen pregnancies is over and there are only a                    
  few having babies.                                                           
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said no and asserted that the legislation refers                  
  only to a small portion of pregnant teens who are under 17                   
  years of age and who are not currently living in the home of                 
  their parents.  She said a considerable amount of teen                       
  parents are currently living in the home of their parents or                 
  with a relative.  She pointed out that another area that is                  
  not covered in the bill is the pregnant 18 to 19 year olds.                  
                                                                               
  REP. OLBERG said those teens are not minors, they are                        
  adults.                                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 051                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asked Ms. Hansen to clarify how a pregnant teen                    
  would fall under the purview of the bill.                                    
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN explained that if a pregnant teen applies for                     
  assistance and is not living with her parents, the division                  
  would have a social worker conduct an investigation to                       
  determine whether the minor should live with the family.  If                 
  the investigation found that the home is harmful for the                     
  teen, then she could be approved for AFDC and live away from                 
  home.  She further indicated that if the home is not harmful                 
  for her, then in processing her application for AFDC, the                    
  division would review her parent's income.                                   
                                                                               
  Number 093                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT asked if the bill covers teenagers who are                         
  pregnant.                                                                    
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said yes.                                                         
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT said, "So, while the tangible benefits are                         
  tantamount to a few dollars, $100,000, there's some                          
  nontangible benefits in the sense that there are perhaps,                    
  I'm being a little bit speculative here, teenagers out there                 
  who are pregnant, who get hooked on cocaine or alcohol, and                  
  there may be some nontangible benefits down the road.  FAS                   
  (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome) let's say, if we can eliminate that                 
  one that saves us a bit."                                                    
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN stated that a pregnant teen will only be eligible                 
  if she is single and in her third trimester or after the                     
  baby is born.  She said it could be possible that the                        
  pregnant teen was receiving Medicaid prior to that time.                     
                                                                               
  Number 147                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE clarified by saying that perhaps the bill                        
  targets rebellious teens who get pregnant and move away from                 
  home so they can receive AFDC.  He then explained that the                   
  teen would not take a pregnancy test and then apply for                      
  AFDC.                                                                        
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said there are no cash grants at that time from                   
  AFDC.                                                                        
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if money is granted by Medicaid upon proof                 
  of pregnancy.                                                                
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN responded that no cash grants are given, but                      
  grants for medical coverage are allowed under pregnant women                 
  Medicaid at the time the pregnancy is verified.  She said                    
  then it would be determined whether the teen meets the asset                 
  and income test.                                                             
                                                                               
  Number 200                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE noted there is no financial incentive to live                    
  outside the home under Medicaid and AFDC is not available                    
  until the third trimester.                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN concurred.                                                        
                                                                               
  Number 204                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if a pregnant teen is eligible for AFDC                  
  if she is living with her family and they are above the                      
  poverty level, or would the parents have to assume the                       
  responsibility for caring for the grandchild.                                
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN indicated that the parent's income is a factor in                 
  whether or not the teen receives AFDC.  She said if the                      
  family is a middle lower class income family, the teen will                  
  not qualify for Medicaid or AFDC.  She explained that the                    
  savings is accounted for by a teen parent moving back with                   
  her parents who are above the poverty level.  The parents                    
  are financially responsible for the medical bills for both                   
  the daughter and grandchild.                                                 
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS clarified that the bill addresses those teen                   
  parents who live away from a stable home and the parents are                 
  above the poverty level.                                                     
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN asserted that most teens live out of the home                     
  because it is unstable.                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS said she understood that, but indicated that                   
  she personally knows that there are pregnant teens who have                  
  moved out of the family home specifically for the grant                      
  money.  She said her concern is for those very teens who are                 
  aware of how the system works and abuse their grant money                    
  and neglect their children.  She further indicated that                      
  there are states that have group home situations where they                  
  receive grant money, are supervised, and learn how to parent                 
  the child.  She felt that concept is more beneficial than                    
  leaving the teens out on their own or forcing them to return                 
  to the family home.  She said when the teen lives on her                     
  own, many times the state ends up placing the child in a                     
  foster home, anyway, and much damage has already been done                   
  to the child.  Rep. B. Davis then asked how much it would                    
  cost to establish some type of group home situation.                         
                                                                               
  Number 366                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said she could not speak specifically to the                      
  cost, but indicated that a group home setting is always more                 
  expensive.                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if Ms. Hansen felt there were enough                     
  cases across the state to warrant a group home.  She felt                    
  that with the teen pregnancy rate as high as it is, there                    
  must be a great need for something of that nature.  She also                 
  asked if it is known how many unmarried pregnant teens are                   
  on AFDC.                                                                     
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN maintained that there are a greater number of                     
  unmarried pregnant teens living with their families than                     
  there are living on their own.  She said there are                           
  approximately 150 unmarried teens living on their own and                    
  that the numbers stay consistent.                                            
                                                                               
  Number 439                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asked if the bill requires the division to                       
  investigate "specific places to put these teenagers" before                  
  AFDC payments are granted.                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said no.  She explained that the division would                   
  investigate the family home.                                                 
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY questioned if foster homes, maternity homes, or                  
  other adult supervised living arrangements could be                          
  investigated and considered.                                                 
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said, "Those don't exist."                                        
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY questioned if the Salvation Army has a maternity                 
  home.                                                                        
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS indicated that there are facilities, but only                  
  until the baby is born.                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. TOOHEY asserted that the Salvation Army has residential                 
  facilities for pregnant women.                                               
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS added that they must leave the facility                        
  shortly thereafter.                                                          
                                                                               
  Number 465                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said the division would investigate what exists,                  
  but in general there are few alternatives.                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE suggested that a teen mother may be kicked out                   
  of the home because they're too expensive.  He then                          
  indicated that an amendment had been submitted.                              
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT made a motion to adopt Amendment 1.  He stated                     
  that the amendment removes AS 47.25.310 (c) which prohibits                  
  the DHSS from requiring residency in the family home.                        
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE questioned the term residency.                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT said, "Living with parents as perhaps a condition                  
  of receiving AFDC."                                                          
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if there was further discussion or any                     
  objections.  Hearing none, he announced that Amendment 1 was                 
  adopted.  He then asked the pleasure of the committee.                       
                                                                               
  Number 540                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT said the legislation is a start and indicated that                 
  there is a large problem with recipients abusing AFDC and                    
  neglecting their children.  He said, "I might add that there                 
  are very few provisions granted to us by the federal                         
  government, which they have already given us the authority                   
  without the waiver to do something in this area."                            
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE asked the pleasure of the committee.                             
                                                                               
  REP. KOTT made a motion to pass HB 431 out of committee with                 
  individual recommendations and accompanying fiscal note.                     
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS objected.                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 575                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR BUNDE called for the vote.  Reps. G. Davis, Vezey,                     
  Kott, Olberg, Bunde and Toohey voted Yea and Reps. B. Davis,                 
  Nicholia and Brice voted Nay.  HB 431 passed out of                          
  committee.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Seeing no further business before the committee, CHAIR BUNDE                 
  adjourned the meeting at 4:10 p.m.                                           

Document Name Date/Time Subjects