Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/02/1994 03:00 PM House HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
           HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES                         
                       STANDING COMMITTEE                                      
                           March 2, 1994                                       
                             3:00 p.m.                                         
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
  Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair                                                
  Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair                                                     
  Rep. Gary Davis                                                              
  Rep. Al Vezey                                                                
  Rep. Pete Kott                                                               
  Rep. Harley Olberg                                                           
  Rep. Irene Nicholia                                                          
  Rep. Tom Brice                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
  Rep. B. Davis                                                                
  OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                    
  Rep. Sean Parnell                                                            
  Rep. Mark Hanley                                                             
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
  *HB 340:  "An Act prohibiting the furlough of sex                            
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
   HB 409:  "An Act relating to the maximum amount of                          
            assistance that may be granted under the adult                     
            public assistance program and the program of aid                   
            to families with dependent children;  proposing a                  
            special demonstration project within the program                   
            of aid to families with dependent children and                     
            directing the Department of Health and Social                      
            Services to seek waivers from the federal                          
            government to implement the project; and providing                 
            for an effective date."                                            
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
  *HB 337:  "An Act relating to the possession of controlled                   
            substances within 500 feet of recreation and youth                 
            NOT HEARD - HELD OVER FOR NEXT CALENDAR MEETING                    
  *HJR 52:  Urging the Congress to amend the Social Security                   
            Act so that the higher cost of living in Alaska is                 
            reflected when the per capita income of the state                  
            is used as a factor in determining the federal                     
            share of Medicaid costs.                                           
            NOT HEARD - HELD OVER FOR NEXT CALENDAR MEETING                    
  (* First public hearing.)                                                    
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
  DIANE SCHENKER, Special Assistant to                                         
  Commissioner Prewitt                                                         
  2200 E. 42nd Ave.                                                            
  Anchorage, Alaska 99508-5202                                                 
  Phone:  (907) 561-4426                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified on HB 340                                     
  KRISTENE EWING                                                               
  203 W. 3rd Ave, #B                                                           
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 586-2231                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
  GERALD BAILEY                                                                
  Director of Gastineau Manor                                                  
  Gastineau Human Services                                                     
  5597 Aisek St.                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 780-4338                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in opposition to HB 340                       
  CINDY SMITH, Executive Director                                              
  Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault                       
  130 Seward St., #501                                                         
  Juneau, Alaska 99801                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 586-3650                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
  SANDRA STONE, Executive Director                                             
  Advocates for Victims of Violence                                            
  P.O. Box 524                                                                 
  Valdez, Alaska 99686                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 835-2980                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support HB 340                             
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  GINELE HOLBROOK, Direct Services Coordinator                                 
  Advocates for Victims of Violence                                            
  P.O. Box 524                                                                 
  Valdez, Alaska 99686                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 835-2980                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support HB 340                             
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  VICKIE WILLIAMS, Youth Service Coordinator                                   
  Advocates for Victims of Violence                                            
  P.O. Box 524                                                                 
  Valdez, Alaska 99686                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 835-2980                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support HB 340                             
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  WENDY BRIGGETTE, Program Assistant                                           
  Advocates for Victims of Violence                                            
  P.O. Box 524                                                                 
  Valdez, Alaska 99686                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 835-2980                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support HB 340                             
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  CAREN ROBINSON                                                               
  P.O. Box 33702                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska 99803                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 586-1107                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
  CAROL WELCH, Staff Person                                                    
  Advocates for Victims of Violence                                            
  P.O. Box 524                                                                 
  Valdez, Alaska 99686                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 835-2980                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support HB 340                             
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director                                            
  Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault                              
  Department of Public Safety                                                  
  P.O. Box 111200                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200                                                    
  Phone:  (907) 465-4356                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
  PAUL SMITH, Director                                                         
  Tundra Center                                                                
  P.O. Box 1114                                                                
  Bethel, Alaska 99559                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 543-3415                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified on HB 340                                     
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  LAUREE HUGONIN, Director                                                     
  Tundra Women's Coalition                                                     
  P.O Box 1537                                                                 
  Bethel, Alaska 99559                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 543-3455                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
  SHERRIE GOLL, Lobbyist                                                       
  Alaska Women's Lobby                                                         
  P.O. Box 22156                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska 99802                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 463-6744                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
  BILL ALLEN, Chairman                                                         
  Advisory Board                                                               
  North Star Center                                                            
  P.O. Box 73765                                                               
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99707                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 451-8448                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in opposition to HB 340                       
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  TANYA MERDES                                                                 
  1331 Great View Lane                                                         
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99701                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 457-1019                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  MARJORIE HOWARD                                                              
  153 Dome Rd.                                                                 
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99709                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 479-2603                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  ROBERT HOWARD                                                                
  153 Dome Rd.                                                                 
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99709                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 479-2603                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  HOLLIS HAMEL                                                                 
  P.O. Box 1184                                                                
  Bethel, Alaska 99559                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 543-3444                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in support of HB 340                          
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
  JAN HANSEN, Director                                                         
  Division of Public Assistance                                                
  Department of Health and Social Services                                     
  P.O. Box 110640                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska 99811-0640                                                    
  (907) 465-2680                                                               
  Position statement:  Answered questions on HB 409                            
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
  BILL:  HB 340                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) PARNELL,Phillips,Toohey,                       
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/03/94      2016    (H)   PREFILE RELEASED                                 
  01/10/94      2016    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/10/94      2016    (H)   HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE                          
  01/12/94      2043    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): TOOHEY, SANDERS                    
  01/13/94      2055    (H)   COSPONSOR(S):  OLBERG                            
  03/02/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  BILL:  HB 409                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: AFDC DEMO PROJECT AND DECREASE                                  
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) HANLEY,Therriault                              
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/28/94      2176    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/28/94      2177    (H)   HES, FINANCE                                     
  02/11/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  02/11/94              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  02/28/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  02/28/94              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  BILL:  HB 337                                                                
  01/03/94      2015    (H)   PREFILE RELEASED                                 
  01/10/94      2015    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/10/94      2015    (H)   HES, JUDICIARY                                   
  01/13/94      2055    (H)   COSPONSOR(S):  B. DAVIS                          
  01/14/94      2084    (H)   COSPONSOR(S):  GREEN                             
  01/18/94      2101    (H)   COSPONSOR(S):  NICHOLIA                          
  03/02/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  BILL:  HJR 52                                                                
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) NORDLUND,Brice,Foster,Larson,                  
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/21/94      2123    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/21/94      2123    (H)   HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL                       
  01/26/94      2159    (H)   COSPONSOR(S):  HANLEY                            
  02/02/94      2230    (H)   COSPONSOR(S):  NICHOLIA,                         
                              B. DAVIS                                         
  02/03/94      2247    (H)   COSPONSOR(S):  DAVIDSON                          
  03/02/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
  TAPE 94-33, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE called the meeting to order at 3:04 p.m., noted                  
  members present and announced the calendar.  He brought HB
  340 to the table.                                                            
  HB 340 - NO FURLOUGHS FOR CERTAIN SEX OFFENDERS                              
  (Note:  Due to technical difficulties, the first three                       
  minutes of the meeting are inaudible.)                                       
  CHAIR BUNDE stated for the record that Rep. Vezey, Rep.                      
  Olberg, and Rep. G. Davis arrived at 3:06 p.m.                               
  Number 120                                                                   
  REP. SEAN PARNELL, Prime Sponsor of HB 340, stated that the                  
  Department of Corrections (DOC) had recently revised their                   
  matrix scoring system which determines inmate eligibility                    
  for prerelease furloughs to halfway houses.  He said, as a                   
  result of that revision, there have been and will continue                   
  to be a higher number of untreated sex offenders released                    
  into communities.  He said the shift has resulted in                         
  misdemeanants remaining in prison facilities while sex                       
  offenders are being furloughed to halfway houses.  He stated                 
  that the matrix that is being currently used poses many                      
  risks to communities.  He explained when the new scoring                     
  matrix was presented to the DOC subcommittee, of which he is                 
  a member, all members expressed their extreme displeasure of                 
  certain provisions of the matrix.  He said the DOC then                      
  worked on another matrix that was released at the end of                     
  December 1993.  He maintained that the December matrix was                   
  constructed without the sex offender treatment personnel's                   
  input and without DOC subcommittee input.  He asserted that                  
  HB 340 is his response to an irresponsible policy.  He                       
  explained that the legislation prohibits the furlough of sex                 
  offenders, except for limited medical reasons, when the                      
  furlough would not put the public at risk or if the prisoner                 
  is in the direct custody of a correctional officer.  He                      
  indicated that a copy of the matrix was in the committee                     
  bill packets.                                                                
  REP. PARNELL maintained that currently untreated sex                         
  offenders are eligible for furlough.  He suggested that if                   
  the DOC has not had someone in treatment, they do not know                   
  the risk the person represents to communities.  He felt that                 
  to be a serious flaw in the matrix.  He also maintained that                 
  the matrix makes several assumptions that are not clinically                 
  supported.  He said the matrix assumes that incest is not                    
  predatory by attempting to differentiate between intrafamily                 
  sexual assault and sexual assault.  Rep. Parnell felt the                    
  DOC appears to provide more leniency to those who abuse                      
  their own children versus those who assault strangers.  He                   
  felt there was no basis for a distinction between the two                    
  circumstances.  He further stated that under the matrix,                     
  touching and fondling is assumed to be low risk behavior.                    
  He explained that often such behavior is a precursor to more                 
  abusive behavior.                                                            
  REP. PARNELL indicated that the matrix makes provisions for                  
  those who commit isolated acts of pedophilia, and offered                    
  that the term "isolated acts of pedophilia" is an "oxymoron"                 
  as he felt it was a contradiction in terms; the acts are                     
  ongoing and not isolated.  He further indicated that the DOC                 
  did not perform a test sample of prisoners.  He suggested                    
  that the implementation of the matrix has not been well                      
  thought out.                                                                 
  REP. PARNELL further stated that he is most disturbed by the                 
  policy call being made by the DOC with regards to                            
  misdemeanants as they relate to sex offenders.  Rep. Parnell                 
  referred to the second page of the fiscal note and indicated                 
  that item number nine states that if sex offenders are                       
  precluded from furloughs, other offenders currently housed                   
  in state correctional beds, such as misdemeanants, would be                  
  diverted to the Community Residential Center (CRC) beds                      
  intended for furloughees.  He stated that it appears to be                   
  DOC policy, due to fiscal restraints, to house misdemeanants                 
  in hard beds and send sex offenders, up to 90 per year, to                   
  soft beds in CRCs.  He felt it was the wrong message to send                 
  to prisoners and to the public.                                              
  Number 352                                                                   
  REP. TOOHEY asked if there was anyone from the DOC in the                    
  REP. PARNELL said yes.  He then said that the legislative                    
  intent that passed last year states that "the program should                 
  not be available for an individual inmate if the potential                   
  for reformation of the inmate is considered to be minimal                    
  and the immediate threat to public safety from that inmate                   
  is great."  He said he did not want that type of individual                  
  in CRC beds.  He explained that under the current matrix,                    
  untreated sex offenders can be released without knowing the                  
  risk to society.  He said that would be violating the                        
  legislative intent.                                                          
  Number 387                                                                   
  REP. BRICE asked when the legislative intent was passed.                     
  REP. PARNELL replied last year.                                              
  Number 393                                                                   
  REP. BRICE asked through what vehicle was the intent passed.                 
  REP. PARNELL responded that it went through the operating                    
  REP. BRICE said it was probably the DOC budget.                              
  Number 398                                                                   
  REP. PARNELL summed up his testimony by stating that                         
  citizens and victims of sex offenders have the right to                      
  demand that sex offenders that have been sentenced to                        
  correctional facilities will remain in the custody of that                   
  facility and will not be furloughed intermittently or early.                 
  He maintained that there is no escape for victims and family                 
  members, particularly in rural villages.                                     
  Number 424                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE stated for the record that Rep. Nicholia arrived                 
  at 3:07 p.m.  He then noted that the meeting was being                       
  teleconferenced to Valdez, Anchorage, Bethel, and Fairbanks.                 
  REP. TOOHEY asked how many convicted sex offenders are                       
  repeat offenders.                                                            
  REP. PARNELL said he did not know the statistics, but did                    
  offer from the Bureau of Justice that there is a high risk                   
  of escape from CRCs and recidivism from CRC furloughees.                     
  REP. TOOHEY stated that she "totally supports" the                           
  Number 466                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE maintained that he felt pedophile are never                      
  REP. TOOHEY agreed.                                                          
  REP. BRICE asked if someone from the DOC could address the                   
  aforementioned issues.                                                       
  CHAIR BUNDE said testimony from the DOC would be                             
  Number 486                                                                   
  REP. VEZEY asked if Rep. Parnell disagreed with the fiscal                   
  REP. PARNELL said yes.  He said if misdemeanants are pulled                  
  out of "hard beds" and put into "soft beds" there would be a                 
  zero fiscal note.  He also suggested that another category                   
  of offender could be found to furlough rather than sex                       
  REP. VEZEY questioned if some sex offenses are misdemeanors.                 
  REP. PARNELL said he did not know the answer.                                
  REP. VEZEY said he felt the question is not where to keep                    
  the sex offender, it is what kind of threat to society does                  
  the state want to reserve hard beds for.                                     
  REP. PARNELL stated that the matrix system prevents society                  
  from knowing what kind of risks the offenders will present.                  
  REP. VEZEY said, as he understood the bill, the DOC would                    
  have to furlough felons before sex offenders would be                        
  REP. PARNELL asked if Rep. Vezey was referring to the                        
  REP. VEZEY said he was referring to HB 340.                                  
  REP. PARNELL submitted that the bill "is a drastic approach"                 
  that is there to meet a drastic threat to society.  He said                  
  Rep. Vezey was correct in that felons could be released                      
  before sex offenders.  He stated that he "was asking for                     
  some sanity from the department."                                            
  REP. VEZEY explained that he does recognize that there are                   
  different categories of offenses to society.  He said he                     
  rated murder at the top of the list of threats to society.                   
  REP. PARNELL said that he felt murderers would not be                        
  released under the current matrix.                                           
  Number 562                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Diane Schenker from the DOC to testify.                    
  REP. PARNELL asked for Rep. Vezey's questions to be deferred                 
  to Ms. Schenker.                                                             
  Number 578                                                                   
  DIANE SCHENKER, Special Assistant to Commissioner Prewitt,                   
  Department of Corrections, answered questions in Juneau on                   
  HB 340.                                                                      
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Ms. Schenker if felons would be furloughed                 
  so that sex offenders could be maintained.  He then asked if                 
  most sex offenses are felonies.                                              
  MS. SCHENKER stated that most sex offenses are felonies.                     
  She said under current policy, all categories of felons are                  
  considered for furlough.  She said the premise is that a                     
  murderer serving 99 years never attains furlough.  She said                  
  the minimum felony is three years with at least one-third                    
  served time.  She indicated there is no exclusion for                        
  furlough review for any offense.                                             
  Number 620                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE referred to the bill that allows terminally ill                  
  inmates to be furloughed no matter what their offense was.                   
  REP. OLBERG asked if there is any category of offense that                   
  cannot be furloughed, theoretically.                                         
  MS. SCHENKER said there is nothing in statute that precludes                 
  anyone from being furloughed simply because of their                         
  offense.  She further stated that "the factors that preclude                 
  someone from being furloughed, statutorily, are time left to                 
  REP. OLBERG asked if the legislation is identifying a class                  
  of offender that shouldn't be "readily" furloughed.                          
  MS. SCHENKER said the legislation is more black and white;                   
  the sex offender would not be considered for review or                       
  furloughed.  She said the furlough policy occurred as a                      
  result of the DOC being asked repeatedly to be less                          
  conservative in the use of furlough policy, citing a long                    
  history of successful furloughs with low rates of escape and                 
  reoffense.  She said individual applications have often been                 
  reviewed and denied and those sex offenders who                              
  satisfactorily participated in sex offender treatment                        
  programs were more often granted furlough.  She said those                   
  numbers were small because many offenders do not participate                 
  in treatment programs.  She explained that after the DOC                     
  received the legislative intent language, the DOC redrafted                  
  the policy and sent the new draft to the Finance                             
  subcommittees.  She said the policy opened up automatic                      
  review for every felon who reaches the window of                             
  eligibility.  Prior to the policy, a felon had to request                    
  consideration for furlough.  She said the committee                          
  responded with common concern that untreated sex offenders                   
  not be furloughed.                                                           
  MS. SCHENKER said the DOC then created the matrix.  She                      
  maintained that the first matrix that was developed weighted                 
  the sex offense so heavily in scoring, that the only way a                   
  sex offender could qualify for furlough would be if the                      
  individual received additional "credit points" for                           
  completing treatment.  She felt the policy and scoring would                 
  answer the concerns of the subcommittee members and other                    
  interested groups.                                                           
  MS. SCHENKER said that sampling was done on the matrix that                  
  indicated that a total of 11 sex offenders were furloughed                   
  for 30-60 days.  The DOC reviewed the policy after several                   
  months and found that more sex offenders than not were being                 
  denied furlough.  She stated that it was the DOC's consensus                 
  that they were not meeting the legislative intent language                   
  and that clearly the DOC was excluding a class of offenders                  
  because of their offense.  The legislative intent language                   
  clearly requires the DOC to make individual determinations                   
  not determined by the offense.  She stated that the matrix                   
  was not meeting the intent language, therefore the DOC                       
  redrafted the matrix, which indicates a higher rate of                       
  furlough for all categories of offenders, including sex                      
  Number 793                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE explained to Rep. Olberg that HB 334 (three                      
  strikes you're out) would address most furlough issues.                      
  REP. TOOHEY stated that there was also a concealed weapons                   
  bill that was making its way rapidly through committees.                     
  She then asked Ms. Schenker how many repeat offenders are in                 
  the system and how many of those have been treated.                          
  MS. SCHENKER answered that a recidivism study for the state                  
  of Alaska is in the process and the results are not                          
  conclusive as of yet.  She indicated that the sex offender                   
  coordinator that she contacted for the statistics said there                 
  were studies from nine other states.  She said eight out of                  
  the nine studies indicate that completion of sex offender                    
  treatment does lower the risk of recidivism.  She asserted                   
  that the DOC has never seen data that suggests that sex                      
  offenders recidivate at higher rates than other categories                   
  of offenses.                                                                 
  Number 841                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE suggested that Ms. Schenker prepare an answer                    
  for Rep. Parnell regarding the second page of the fiscal                     
  note, item 9.  He then asked for testimony in Juneau.                        
  Number 845                                                                   
  KRISTENE EWING, Concerned Citizen, testified in support of                   
  HB 340.  She stated that she was opposed to current policy                   
  that allows furloughs to sex offenders, citing the threat                    
  posed society.  She felt there should be legislation that                    
  mandates sex offenders to fulfill their terms of sentence                    
  with no option of early release.  She explained that there                   
  are other felon and misdemeanor populations that could                       
  benefit from the furlough program.  She felt that these                      
  categories of offenders do not represent the extreme threat                  
  to society as do sex offenders.  She strongly urged the                      
  committee to support HB 340.                                                 
  Number 929                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for questions.  He then asked for further                  
  Number 944                                                                   
  GERALD BAILEY, Director, Glacier Manor, Gastineau Human                      
  Services (GHS), testified in opposition to HB 340.  He                       
  indicated that Glacier Manor is a halfway house in Juneau.                   
  He stated that the legislation is an extreme measure                         
  designed to deal with a problem that is not as extreme as                    
  the solution.  He said it was not his desire to have sex                     
  offenders in his halfway house that he cannot supervise and                  
  provide community safety for.  He felt it was not in the                     
  state's best interest to prohibit all sex offenders from                     
  furlough eligibility, citing that there are sex offenders                    
  that are amenable to treatment and who can earn the right to                 
  early release to a halfway house.  He maintained that sex                    
  offenders are no more difficult to deal with than any other                  
  class of offender.  He submitted that furlough release into                  
  a halfway house is composed of strict standards by which                     
  Glacier Manor monitors their residents as to their                           
  whereabouts.  The offenders are very much aware that they                    
  are still under the supervision of the DOC.  He further                      
  stated that a violation of furlough results in the                           
  individual's return to "one of the institutions."                            
  MR. BAILEY said halfway houses are an alternative to hard                    
  beds, explaining that it provides community safety while                     
  providing rehabilitation and accountability for offenders.                   
  However, he felt that not every sex offender should be                       
  furloughed to a halfway house.  He maintained that there are                 
  sex offenders that are appropriate for halfway house                         
  placement that should be given the opportunity for review                    
  much like anyone else.                                                       
  Number 999                                                                   
  REP. KOTT asked Mr. Bailey to comment on the current                         
  procedures used to monitor sex offenders in halfway houses.                  
  MR. BAILEY specified visual surveillance, telephone                          
  surveillance, the knowledge of where the offender is at all                  
  times, and observation of the offender within the community                  
  (with or without the offender's knowledge) as currently used                 
  monitoring techniques.  He indicated that contact by phone                   
  to their employers or supervisors is necessary if they are                   
  working or doing community service.  They are not allowed                    
  into the community unless for specific purposes that are                     
  approved ahead of time.  He also mentioned that the                          
  furloughees can earn privileges which allow them more pass                   
  time in the community that is also closely monitored.                        
  Number 022                                                                   
  REP. KOTT asked if those who do the surveillance actually                    
  "shadow" the sex offender in the community.                                  
  MR. BAILEY answered that they do not follow them one on one.                 
  He explained that the halfway house does random visual                       
  surveillances frequently enough that they are assured that                   
  the offender is doing what they're supposed to be doing.                     
  REP. KOTT asked how frequently random visual surveillances                   
  are done.                                                                    
  MR. BAILEY said it could vary, citing that visual                            
  surveillance could be done from once a week to once a month,                 
  and that telephone surveillance could be done two or three                   
  times a day.  He explained that how often an offender is                     
  surveillanced depends on the nature of the offender's crime.                 
  Number 040                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if Gastineau Manor is a state agency or a                  
  private entity.                                                              
  MR. BAILEY stated that Gastineau Human Services, which                       
  operates Glacier Manor, is a private nonprofit organization                  
  that contracts with the DOC.                                                 
  Number 047                                                                   
  REP. VEZEY asked if it was a reasonable assumption that                      
  pedophile do not pose a threat to other adults.                              
  MR. BAILEY said generally they are not a threat to other                     
  adults, but certainly pose a threat to children.                             
  REP. VEZEY supposed that it may be easier to isolate a                       
  pedophile from children under a certain age as opposed to                    
  all women in society.                                                        
  MR. BAILEY agreed.                                                           
  Number 069                                                                   
  REP. G. DAVIS asked Mr. Bailey if he knew the recidivism                     
  rate for sexual offenders as opposed to other categories of                  
  MR. BAILEY indicated that an article he had showed                           
  recidivism rates varying from 10% for incest offenders to                    
  40% for exhibitionists and voyeurs.  He said there is                        
  clearly a difference between the various types of sex                        
  offenders.  He said his personal opinion is that they are no                 
  more likely to offend than other categories of offenders.                    
  Number 092                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for the title of the report Mr. Bailey was                 
  reading from.                                                                
  MR. BAILEY said it was a journal article titled, "Research                   
  on Sex Offenders, What Do We Know?"  He said he was unsure                   
  of the article's source.                                                     
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Mr. Bailey to inform Rep. Toohey of the                    
  source of the article when convenient.                                       
  REP. KOTT asked Mr. Bailey how many of the sex offenders                     
  that have been involved with his facility have violated                      
  their parole.                                                                
  MR. BAILEY said, "In this fiscal year, we have had nine                      
  referrals placed into the CRC, and none of them have                         
  violated their paroles."                                                     
  REP. KOTT asked if there are many violations of parole.                      
  MR. BAILEY answered no.  He said in his experience of one                    
  year with GHS, he has known of one violation.                                
  Number 121                                                                   
  REP. BRICE asked if he had seen the same faces come back                     
  MR. BAILEY said in regards to sex offenders, he has not seen                 
  any come back through.                                                       
  Number 133                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked what percentage of Mr. Bailey's clients                    
  are sex offenders.                                                           
  MR. BAILEY responded by saying that 13% of the referrals                     
  they have received this year are sex offenders.                              
  REP. PARNELL asked how many additional sex offenders would                   
  Mr. Bailey receive as referrals under the new proposal.                      
  MR. BAILEY said he was unsure.                                               
  TAPE 94-33, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE stated that testimony would be heard in Juneau                   
  and then via teleconference from Valdez.                                     
  Number 005                                                                   
  CINDY SMITH, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic                  
  Violence and Sexual Assault, testified in Juneau in support                  
  of HB 340.  She stated that the network is a coalition of                    
  the 22 domestic violence and sexual assault programs around                  
  the state.  She said the program served 9000 victims last                    
  year.  She also stated that the network also includes the                    
  DOC contract as sex offender treatment provider.  She                        
  commented that she was prepared to cite and leave with the                   
  committee studies that provide relative statistics regarding                 
  sex offenders.  She stated that between 1989 and 1991 the                    
  number of reported rapes against women and the number of                     
  child sexual assault doubled.  She said that levels of                       
  sexual assault are presently higher than in any rates of the                 
  past decade.                                                                 
  MS. SMITH explained that due to financial restrictions and                   
  overcrowding, the DOC began authorizing prerelease furloughs                 
  for sex offenders.  When the network learned of the new                      
  policy of early release, especially of untreated offenders,                  
  she wrote a letter of objection to the DOC.  She further                     
  stated that studies show nationally the recidivism rate to                   
  be 80%-90% for untreated sex offenders.                                      
  MS. SMITH addressed the issue of treatment of sex offenders                  
  by citing a document from the DOC which contains a                           
  consultant study among eight national studies that directly                  
  compared treated and untreated groups of sex offenders.  She                 
  said five out of the eight studies indicated the reoffense                   
  rate to be higher among treated offenders, two reports                       
  showed there to be no difference in the recidivism rate, and                 
  findings were positive in one study.  She indicated the                      
  document originated from the DOC and was provided to her by                  
  Janet Marquess.                                                              
  Number 091                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked if Ms. Smith would supply the committee                    
  secretary with her prepared written testimony.                               
  MS. SMITH indicated that she was reading from notes.  She                    
  continued on to say that the bottom line is that the                         
  furloughs are being granted to a group of offenders that                     
  have a much higher propensity to reoffend than other                         
  categories of offenders that are placed into community beds.                 
  She also stated that the network is not aware of any special                 
  training for community halfway houses that is specific to                    
  managing sex offenders.  She also suggested that not all                     
  halfway houses are as admirably monitored as Glacier Manor.                  
  MS. SMITH asserted that the references in the matrix are                     
  misleading.  She maintained that studies have shown a                        
  significant "cross-over", citing 44% of in-family assaults                   
  indicate that the perpetrator had also committed sexual                      
  assaults outside of the family.  Ms. Smith further explained                 
  that there is also a cross-over from people who primarily                    
  assault children, citing that they sometimes assault adults.                 
  She pointed out that those who are known to be peeping Toms                  
  are also likely to be sexual offenders.  She felt the idea                   
  of providing sex offenders with furlough as an incentive for                 
  sex offenders to receive treatment is not a good idea,                       
  explaining that sex offenders often con people.                              
  MS. SMITH said the question is which beds are being used for                 
  sex offenders.  She maintained that the DOC's current                        
  decision seems to be that it's more important to free up                     
  hard beds for misdemeanants; i.e., DWIs and assault; by                      
  putting a group with an 80% recidivism rate out into the                     
  community in soft beds where they are for the most part                      
  surveillanced but not monitored 24 hours a day.  She urged                   
  the committee to support HB 340.                                             
  Number 202                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for questions from the committee.                          
  REP. G. DAVIS asked if the recidivism rate was 80% plus.                     
  MS. SMITH said it is 80%-90% and the statistics were from                    
  data that tracked treated and untreated sex offenders.  She                  
  said the reports indicated that recidivism rates ranged                      
  between 15%-40% for offenders who are "treatment complete."                  
  She also said that a number of states indicated higher rates                 
  of recidivism for treated offenders opposed to untreated                     
  Number 244                                                                   
  REP. KOTT asked what the recidivism rate is for treated                      
  MS. SMITH said the statistics vary depending on what state                   
  is involved and what kind of treatment they provide.  She                    
  said estimates run between 20% and 40%.  She asserted that                   
  most studies are not finding their programs effective,                       
  citing that some programs have shut down.  She said there is                 
  no recidivism data in Alaska.                                                
  Number 276                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for teleconference testimony and urged                     
  those testifying to limit their testimony.                                   
  Number 280                                                                   
  SANDRA STONE, Executive Director, Advocates for Victims of                   
  Violence, testified via teleconference in support of HB 340.                 
  She stated that early release of sex offenders revictimizes                  
  the victim and minimizes the impact of the offense on the                    
  victim's life.  She explained that she has sat in on sex                     
  offender treatment groups where offenders were in prison for                 
  their second and third time.  She said many were incest                      
  perpetrators.  She urged the committee to let victims know                   
  that they believe in the seriousness of the crime committed                  
  against them by supporting HB 340.                                           
  Number 338                                                                   
  GINELE HOLBROOK, Direct Services Coordinator, Advocates for                  
  Victims of Violence, testified via teleconference in support                 
  of HB 340.  She stated that she had the opportunity in the                   
  past to work with sex offenders.  She said her testimony is                  
  based on personal rather than professional experience.  She                  
  said her first experience was with an offender who talked                    
  positively of how he was going to turn his life around.  She                 
  indicated that a week later, upon the offender's release, he                 
  had raped his ex-girlfriend because she had broken off their                 
  MS. HOLBROOK related another experience that she had with a                  
  pedophile that had been kicked out of the sex offenders                      
  treatment program for inappropriate behavior.  She said she                  
  worked with him as a liaison between his family and him.                     
  Consequently, she told the man she could no longer work with                 
  him.  The offender then threatened her by telling her that                   
  when he was released "he would find me, and we would finish                  
  business."  Ms. Holbrook said she felt that she could                        
  prepare herself for the offender's imminent release, but if                  
  the legislation is not passed, she would always be looking                   
  over her shoulder.                                                           
  Number 408                                                                   
  VICKIE WILLIAMS, Youth Services Coordinator, Advocates for                   
  Victims of Violence, testified via teleconference in support                 
  of HB 340.  She reiterated that child victims will be                        
  revictimized by the knowledge that their sexual offenders                    
  will be back on the streets even earlier.  She felt that to                  
  trade off children's safety for money is extremely                           
  Number 426                                                                   
  WENDY BRIGGETTE, Program Assistant, Advocates for Victims of                 
  Violence, testified via teleconference in support of HB 340.                 
  She stated her concern that pedophile and incest                             
  perpetrators should be considered in the same class as                       
  violent sex offenders.                                                       
  CHAIR BUNDE said her point was well taken.                                   
  CAREN ROBINSON, Concerned Citizen, testified in Juneau in                    
  support of HB 340.  She stated that she has worked in the                    
  area of domestic violence and sexual assault for ten years                   
  and was one of the first certified police trainers in the                    
  state.  She also stated that she lobbied for setting up the                  
  Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault.  She                        
  reminded the committee that the legislation addresses early                  
  furlough.  She felt it is extremely important to use soft                    
  beds to house nonviolent offenders, citing the high                          
  recidivism rate for sexual offenders.                                        
  MS. ROBINSON related circumstances where she was involved in                 
  treatment for sex offenders in Washington.  She said part of                 
  the treatment was that the offenders had to verbally address                 
  all the offenses that they had perpetrated against victims.                  
  She said when the offenders became honest about their pasts,                 
  not one in the group had only one offense, indicating cross-                 
  over behavior.                                                               
  MS. ROBINSON asserted that the offense of child molestation                  
  within the home is just as serious as a child being molested                 
  by a stranger next door.  She indicated that most children                   
  of incest have endured years of abuse.  She stated that she                  
  left the area of domestic violence in sexual assault because                 
  she could "not take, any longer, working with people who I                   
  later discovered, in some form, were molesting children."                    
  MS. ROBINSON named Max DuBois as a program director who                      
  molested five young boys, was arrested, and put in jail.                     
  She said not long after, she was in Anchorage at a movie                     
  theater and found herself and her son sitting next to him                    
  with two Native boys with him.  She said he has fled to                      
  Florida and is being sought for approximately five other                     
  MS. ROBINSON indicated that she had taught police officers                   
  and in schools with Ken McQuaid, who molested five boys.                     
  She reminded the committee that he was a school board member                 
  and would have definitely been a candidate for any early                     
  release furlough.                                                            
  MS. ROBINSON mentioned Ron Lear who was with the attorneys                   
  general who worked with her in rewriting the sexual assault                  
  laws.  She said he molested his four children, was arrested                  
  and jailed, and is now in prison again for remolesting.                      
  Lastly, MS. ROBINSON referred to the captain of police who                   
  was charged with sexual assault and roams free in Washington                 
  because of the statute of limitations.  She said there was                   
  evidence of at least five or six victims in his own                          
  immediate family.  She strongly encouraged passage of HB
  Number 616                                                                   
  REP. BRICE asked for a copy of the report Ms. Robinson was                   
  reading from.                                                                
  Number 620                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for further testimony from Valdez.                         
  Number 622                                                                   
  CAROL WELCH, Staff Person, Advocate for Victims of Violence,                 
  testified via teleconference in support of HB 340.  She                      
  stated that the safety of children should be the priority                    
  for all.  She felt to release an untreated sex offender                      
  early was to suggest that their offense was "no big deal."                   
  It allows the offender to continue in their denial of                        
  responsibility.  She urged the passage of HB 340.                            
  Number 648                                                                   
  JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic                       
  Violence and Sexual Assault, Department of Public Safety,                    
  testified in Juneau in support of HB 340.  She stated that                   
  she was testifying on behalf of the council.  She said that                  
  Alaska has one of the highest rates of forcible rape in the                  
  United States.  (see Attachment 1)  She said Alaska now                      
  exceeds the national average by more than two times.  It is                  
  important to note that the numbers reflect the incidences of                 
  rape that were reported.  She said it is estimated that only                 
  7% of rapes are reported, and with those statistics it is                    
  estimated that over 8000 rapes occurred in Alaska in 1992.                   
  MS. ANDREEN reiterated the high recidivism rate for sex                      
  offenders, and felt that sex offenders, whether they are                     
  treated or untreated, are being placed in community beds                     
  which allows offenders greater access to potential victims.                  
  She said this practice decreases public safety.  She                         
  asserted that community beds could be more effectively used                  
  by less dangerous populations.  She felt it would provide an                 
  appropriate balance between cost effective utilization of                    
  DOC resources while ensuring public safety.                                  
  Number 686                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked for testimony from Bethel.                                 
  Number 690                                                                   
  PAUL SMITH, Director, Tundra Center, testified via                           
  teleconference on HB 340.  He read a statement from Susan                    
  Rapoza, Former Board Member of the Tundra Center.  In the                    
  statement she indicated that all offenders, including sex                    
  offenders, should be given the opportunity to reside in a                    
  residential program.  She felt by allowing the offenders to                  
  reside in community beds they would become self-sufficient                   
  and secure enough to reenter the community.  She indicated                   
  that to the best of her knowledge there has been no major                    
  problems presented by sex offenders in the Tundra Center.                    
  MR. SMITH asserted that the Tundra Center has had a 100%                     
  completion rate for treatment of sex offenders since January                 
  of 1992.  He said 12 sex offenders have been admitted to the                 
  program since 1992.  He said there is no sex offender                        
  classes or programs conducted through mental health programs                 
  in Bethel.                                                                   
  Number 756                                                                   
  LAUREE HUGONIN, Director, Tundra Women's Coalition,                          
  testified via teleconference in support of HB 340.  She                      
  stated that during 1993, state troopers investigated 236                     
  child sexual and physical abuse cases in the region                          
  surrounding Bethel.                                                          
  (Due to technical difficulties with teleconference, Chair                    
  Bunde took a brief at-ease from 4:12 p.m. to 4:15 p.m.)                      
  MS. HUGONIN continued with her testimony.  She said that 53                  
  cases of adult sexual assault were reported in that same                     
  year.  She said that during 1993, ten Bethel residents and                   
  45 Yukon Delta residents were incarcerated for sexual                        
  offenses.  She also stated that since 1992, twelve sex                       
  offenders have resided at the community halfway house in                     
  Bethel.  She maintained that the region does not need sex                    
  offenders to be released any earlier than possible and                       
  questioned if treatment for sex offenders is effective at                    
  all.  She commented on the community halfway house in                        
  Bethel.  She indicated that those offenders in residence                     
  have opportunity to be away from supervision at their work                   
  place and during their lunchtime.  She explained that the                    
  community is small and that the sex offenders pose a risk to                 
  the public.                                                                  
  TAPE 94-34, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
  MS. HUGONIN further stated that she supported early release                  
  for misdemeanants to halfway houses.  She suggested that                     
  perhaps those convicted for crimes against property should                   
  be allowed soft beds as opposed to sex offenders.  She                       
  asserted that a revision be made to the DOC scoring matrix.                  
  She agreed that intrafamily sexual assault is just as                        
  dangerous and damaging as other higher rated assaults within                 
  the matrix.  She said that sex offenders must be required to                 
  face the full consequences of their actions.                                 
  Number 090                                                                   
  SHERRIE GOLL, Lobbyist, Alaska Women's Lobby, testified in                   
  Juneau in support of HB 340.  She stated that pedophile are                  
  very likely to be pillars of the community and are very                      
  adept at conning adults and children.  She said these types                  
  of offenders would appear to be good candidates for early                    
  release.  She said the Alaska Women's Lobby supports halfway                 
  houses in the community for reintegration into the                           
  community, but they feel it is inappropriate for sex                         
  offenders and violent criminals of any kind.  She suggested                  
  that perhaps sex offenders should be required to do their                    
  full time in prison and then be placed into community beds                   
  in halfway houses to be integrated back into the society.                    
  Number 177                                                                   
  BILL ALLEN, Chairman, Advisory Board, North Star Center,                     
  testified via teleconference in opposition to HB 340.  He                    
  stated that the matrix prohibits untreated sex offenders                     
  convicted of violent and sexual assault from being                           
  furloughed.  He felt that to prohibit furlough to sex                        
  offenders would discourage them from getting professional                    
  help, as the incentive to be cured would be removed.  He                     
  stated that alcohol abuse is a large factor associated with                  
  acts of sexual abuse.  He further stated that North Star                     
  Center has admitted 50 sex offenders since January of 1990,                  
  and none of the offenders have been arrested as a result of                  
  a new offense while in their program.  He urged that the                     
  legislation be redrafted accordingly.                                        
  Number 274                                                                   
  TANYA MERDES testified via teleconference in support of HB
  340.  She stated that she is sixteen years old and a victim                  
  of rape.  She said, "If my perpetrator is let out of jail                    
  any earlier, I don't know what I would do.  My freedom has                   
  already been stripped away from me, and I think...  he                       
  should serve his full sentence."                                             
  CHAIR BUNDE expressed his appreciation to Tanya Merdes for                   
  coming forward.  He asked to hear testimony from Marjorie                    
  Number 296                                                                   
  MARJORIE HOWARD, Tanya Merdes' grandmother, testified via                    
  teleconference in support of HB 340.  She stated that sex                    
  offenders should not be allowed in to society before they                    
  have served as much time as the state can mandate.                           
  Number 320                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE, due to the heart-felt nature of Ms. Howard's                    
  testimony, asked her if she would like to take a moment to                   
  regain her composure.                                                        
  Number 350                                                                   
  MS. HOWARD continued with her testimony.  She said that her                  
  family must endure the presence of her granddaughter's                       
  perpetrator for the rest of their lives.  She stated that no                 
  family or victim ever truly heals from such a crime.  She                    
  felt that letting sex offenders out early into the community                 
  is improper.                                                                 
  Number 360                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE thanked Ms. Howard for coming forward, and said                  
  that it is important for legislators to hear the testimony                   
  of victims in the community.                                                 
  Number 365                                                                   
  ROBERT HOWARD, Tanya Merdes' grandfather, testified via                      
  teleconference in support of HB 340.  He stated that in the                  
  past two years, his family has undergone the devastation of                  
  a sexual offense committed against his granddaughter.  He                    
  said, "the other thing is this, I have personally                            
  experienced the psychological effect of hormone imbalance,                   
  and what that can do to your view of the world.  I want you                  
  to understand that it can be very significant.  And, it can                  
  be overwhelming, and it can be something that you have no                    
  defenses against.  That is a preface of what I wanted to                     
  tell you."  He further stated that violation of furlough is                  
  an unacceptable risk.  He said the crime of sexual assault                   
  is one of the most difficult to detect and to prosecute,                     
  citing that in many cases it is an easy act for offenders to                 
  hide.  He said, "I can tell you from personal experience                     
  that your very best friend, for your whole life, can be the                  
  perpetrator of sex offenses, and you don't even know it.                     
  That was hard to deal with."                                                 
  MR. HOWARD felt that HB 340 was a good solution to an                        
  extreme problem.  He further stated that treatment for sex                   
  offenders in prison is of no value.  He said, "I feel that                   
  ultimately, most acts of sex offense are probably driven by                  
  hormones coupled with maybe a little bit of a twisted                        
  psychological outlook.  But, they're driven by hormones                      
  which when active can overwhelm the best of intentions."  He                 
  said he doubted that treatment of sex offenders included                     
  significant modification of hormones, but felt it would be                   
  of value to the offender to undergo such treatment.  He                      
  asserted that of all sex crimes, pedophilia is the easiest                   
  crime to conceal and he felt that there is no degree of                      
  distinction between it and other acts of sexual assault.                     
  Number 492                                                                   
  REP. G. DAVIS asked Mr. Howard if the perpetrator of the                     
  crime against his granddaughter was a repeat offender.                       
  MR. HOWARD said, "ten times at least."                                       
  REP. G. DAVIS asked if that was prior to the offense to his                  
  MR. HOWARD responded yes.                                                    
  CHAIR BUNDE clarified and asked if there was a prior                         
  MR. HOWARD said no.                                                          
  CHAIR BUNDE clarified that although it does not minimize the                 
  perpetrator's offense, there was no prior conviction so it                   
  was not a second offense.  He then closed public testimony.                  
  He asked the pleasure of the committee.  He then was made                    
  aware that there was one testifier left in Bethel.                           
  Number 542                                                                   
  HOLLIS HAMEL, Concerned Citizen, testified via                               
  teleconference in support of HB 340.  She stated that Alaska                 
  has sent an increasingly loud message to sexual assault                      
  victims that they deserve advocacy and support services,                     
  that they are, indeed, victims of serious crime, and that                    
  there are punitive measures placed on the offenders of those                 
  crimes.  In light of the message being sent, Ms. Hamel asked                 
  how the state could allow the early release of sex                           
  offenders, citing that the victims' safety could be greatly                  
  compromised.   She felt that offenders would interpret the                   
  message as "no big deal."                                                    
  Number 595                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE asked the pleasure of the committee.                             
  REP. TOOHEY said that she, as a nurse, has been the                          
  recipient of rape victims in the emergency room and has had                  
  several friends raped.  She made a motion to pass HB 340 out                 
  of committee with individual recommendations.                                
  CHAIR BUNDE indicated that there was an accompanying fiscal                  
  note.  He suggested that the issue of the fiscal note be                     
  addressed in future committees.                                              
  REP. PARNELL offered that Ms. Schenker was available for                     
  fiscal questions.                                                            
  CHAIR BUNDE asked Rep. Parnell to address the fiscal note in                 
  the Finance Committee.                                                       
  Number 633                                                                   
  REP. G. DAVIS asked Ms. Schenker if there are enough                         
  offenders in other categories to fill the soft beds.                         
  MS. SCHENKER stated that the DOC would like to make it clear                 
  that there is not a pool of nonviolent offenders to                          
  substitute for violent offenders.  She said that it is very                  
  rare that a nonviolent offender, with no past violent                        
  crimes, would be put into the prison system.  She said there                 
  are misdemeanants that could be put into the beds.  However,                 
  Ms. Schenker stated, the DOC is 265 prisoners over the                       
  maximum capacity.  She said that if today the DOC "swapped                   
  the misdemeanants for the furloughed sex offenders, it is                    
  true that there would be no impact."                                         
  Number 704                                                                   
  CHAIR BUNDE indicated that the committee had heard the                       
  motion and asked if there were any objections.  Hearing                      
  none, Chair Bunde declared that HB 340 was so moved.                         
  CHAIR BUNDE then brought HB 409 to the table.  He stated                     
  that the bill was heard previously.                                          
  (Note: Chair Bunde handed the gavel over to Rep. Toohey to                   
  preside over the remainder of the meeting.)                                  
  HB 409 - AFDC DEMO PROJECT AND DECREASE                                      
  Number 713                                                                   
  CHAIR TOOHEY indicated that there were questions that                        
  remained unanswered from the last meeting.                                   
  REP. G. DAVIS said he was comfortable with the bill and that                 
  all of his prior concerns had been successfully addressed.                   
  REP. BRICE indicated that at the end of the meeting on March                 
  28, 1994, Rep. B. Davis had asked for figures to be worked                   
  out regarding a lower ratable reduction.  He said it was his                 
  understanding that Rep. B. Davis' concerns were going to be                  
  addressed before the bill was to be moved out of committee.                  
  He asked if there were any answers to Rep. B. Davis'                         
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, to her knowledge, they had not been                       
  answered.  She said it was her intent to pass the bill out,                  
  as the committee was unsure as to how long it would be                       
  before Rep. B. Davis returned to Juneau.  Rep. B. Davis was                  
  in Anchorage seeking medical treatment.                                      
  Number 760                                                                   
  REP. BRICE further indicated that he had submitted a list of                 
  20 questions to a subcommittee hearing and had not received                  
  a reply.                                                                     
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked if Rep. Mark Hanley had addressed the                     
  list of questions for Rep. Brice.                                            
  REP. BRICE maintained that he submitted a list to both the                   
  prime sponsor and to the Department of Health and Social                     
  Services (DHSS) and still had not received a response.                       
  REP. G. DAVIS, as chairman of the subcommittee, stated that                  
  he did not recall seeing a specific list of questions.  He                   
  said he certainly was not denying that the list was                          
  submitted.  He referred to the ratable reductions, stating                   
  that he had concerns also that perhaps there could be other                  
  avenues of funding.  He said after researching the issue                     
  further, he found no other way to generate the needed                        
  funding and indicated his acceptance to the proposal.                        
  REP. HANLEY said that he received a copy of the list and                     
  said, "I don't know how you want to respond, but some of the                 
  questions were:  What does it cost to implement the federal                  
  waivers?  What does it cost to administer a demonstration                    
  project over the life of the project...cost ratios, cost                     
  benefit study?  There isn't a cost benefit study, but the                    
  fiscal note answers about half of the questions that are on                  
  Number 800                                                                   
  REP. BRICE said there were about six or seven serious policy                 
  questions that were left unanswered.                                         
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, "Excuse me, Rep. Brice, had you checked                   
  with the sponsor before that?"                                               
  REP. BRICE said that he had been in contact with Rep.                        
  REP. HANLEY indicated that he had a copy of the questions.                   
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked Rep. Hanley if he was able to answer any                  
  of Rep. Brice's questions.                                                   
  REP. HANLEY said, "We talked to the office, but..."                          
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked if there was anyone from the DHSS in the                  
  audience.  She then asked Rep. Hanley to respond before she                  
  heard testimony from Jan Hansen.                                             
  REP. HANLEY said that he drafted an amendment that would                     
  address the aforementioned concerns.  He said the bill                       
  already establishes that if the federal government does not                  
  approve some of the waivers, it has the ability to determine                 
  whether the project should be implemented.  He further                       
  stated that the proposal states that the DHSS shall apply                    
  for and implement the waivers that relate to the parts of                    
  the project that are not substantially affected by the                       
  change in federal statutes or regulations.  He maintained                    
  that if there are changes in federal regulations, the DHSS                   
  would have the ability to discontinue the operation of the                   
  Number 845                                                                   
  REP. BRICE asked, if the project were to be discontinued,                    
  would the ratable return to the original rate?                               
  REP. HANLEY said no.                                                         
  REP. BRICE clarified that even if the demonstration is not                   
  being done, the ratable would not go back to the original                    
  REP. HANLEY said no.                                                         
  REP. BRICE made a motion to amend the amendment to reflect                   
  that if the DHSS does not do the demonstration project, that                 
  the ratable would be reimplemented to the original level.                    
  REP. BUNDE objected and offered that even with the ratable                   
  reduction, "...Alaska is the highest welfare rate in the                     
  Number 871                                                                   
  REP. NICHOLIA said, "Bettye (Rep. B. Davis) asked                            
  specifically for the department to draw up the numbers...                    
  possibly at a 7% ratable to make the program more cost                       
  neutral and less of an impact on the AFDC recipients.                        
  That's what she specifically asked for."                                     
  CHAIR TOOHEY called for the vote to amend HB 409 as amended.                 
  The motion was made to bring the ratable back to its                         
  original rate if the waiver is not implemented.  Reps.                       
  Nicholia and Brice voted Yea; Reps. Toohey, Bunde, Gary                      
  Davis, Vezey, and Olberg voted Nay.  Chair Toohey declared                   
  that the motion failed.  She then asked if the amendment                     
  proposed by Rep. Hanley had been adopted.  It had not been                   
  adopted.  She asked for a motion.                                            
  Number 903                                                                   
  REP. BUNDE made a motion to adopt the amendment for HB 409.                  
  CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, said the amendment had                  
  been adopted.                                                                
  REP. NICHOLIA referred to her earlier question as to whether                 
  Rep. Bettye Davis' concerns were going to be addressed.  She                 
  asked for an answer.                                                         
  Number 912                                                                   
  REP. HANLEY said that the DHSS would be able to figure out a                 
  ratable reduction.  He said he was unable to render those                    
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked if Rep. B. Davis' request was made during                 
  the teleconference meeting on February 28, 1994.                             
  REP. BRICE said yes, "asking for the .7 numbers...on the                     
  Number 924                                                                   
  JAN HANSEN, Director, Division of Public Assistance,                         
  Department of Health and Social Services, answered questions                 
  on HB 409.  She stated that the current percentage on the                    
  fiscal analysis was 1.7%.  She then estimated that at .9 the                 
  numbers would be about half of any of the figures listed.                    
  She said that .7 of 1.7% would be about 45% of the figures                   
  shown on the fiscal analysis.  She stated that the numbers                   
  were ball park figures.                                                      
  Number 944                                                                   
  REP. NICHOLIA stated that it was her feeling that if Rep. B.                 
  Davis requested those figures, they should have been written                 
  up instead of giving "ball park figures" for answers.                        
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, "I would move that if Rep. Davis would                    
  like that information, she can get it through Finance."  She                 
  then asked for further questions.                                            
  Number 962                                                                   
  REP. BRICE said, "Considering that there's roughly 18,600                    
  people... that are due back child support... that are also                   
  on AFDC in the state, I would kindly submit that we look at                  
  possibly including some amendments to include some of the                    
  child support enforcement legislation that we've been                        
  talking about; namely, for those employers who intentionally                 
  hide the fact that their employee is in arrears to child                     
  Number 979                                                                   
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, "Rep. Brice, you are off the subject of                   
  this.  There is a bill before us... or there was a bill..."                  
  REP. BRICE said, "Yes, but I've got an amendment that I                      
  would like to propose."                                                      
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, "I would like to know the wish of the                     
  committee -- if we want to take to another amendment or if                   
  we want to continue and pass this bill on."                                  
  REP. BUNDE made a motion to pass HB 409 out of committee.                    
  REP. BRICE said, "Out of order.  Point of order.  No.  We                    
  were not told that this bill was going to come up until just                 
  this morning.  There was no discussion as to whether it                      
  would... my understanding is... me and Irene left the room                   
  after adjournment, Monday morning, then there was a                          
  discussion.  There was no attempt to contact our offices...                  
  so where we could be in contact with the sponsor of the                      
  legislation to address certain questions that we have not                    
  been allowed access to through the subcommittee or through                   
  the past hearing."                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
  CHAIR TOOHEY interjected and said, "The subcommittee was                     
  open to the public."                                                         
  REP. BRICE said, "Not according to your very words, Madam                    
  Chair.  You said it did not concern the matters of                           
  Fairbanks, and that's why I was not chosen to sit on it."                    
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, "And Rep. Davis was, as a voting member,                  
  not as a member of the committee."                                           
  REP. BRICE said, "And, she's been sick."                                     
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, "That's right, not as a member... excuse                  
  me.  You were here at the committee meeting, and I believe                   
  you were too."  She indicated that Rep. Nicholia was in                      
  attendance also.                                                             
  REP. BRICE said, "Not when it was announced that you'd bring                 
  it back up on Wednesday."                                                    
  CHAIR TOOHEY said, "That's right..."  She then asked the                     
  pleasure of the committee.                                                   
  Number 017                                                                   
  REP. BUNDE made a motion to pass HB 409 out of committee.                    
  REP. NICHOLIA said, "Before you make any moves here, I would                 
  like to say something.  I think that this bill here is a                     
  little early, Rep. Hanley.  I think that you're going to be                  
  tying up people for five years when there's other welfare                    
  reform coming from President Clinton.  We haven't seen it.                   
  We haven't been in touch with our Congressman to see what's                  
  in that package.  And, I just think that this is just too                    
  early for us.  You said at the beginning, when you first                     
  introduced it, that it was just a proposal, and so here we                   
  are having a bill in front of us... I just think that it's                   
  not going to do us any good right now.  I think it's just                    
  too early."                                                                  
  Number 036                                                                   
  REP. BUNDE stated that he had a motion on the floor.                         
  REP. BRICE objected.                                                         
  CHAIR TOOHEY called for the vote.  Reps. Bunde, Gary Davis,                  
  Vezey, Kott, Olberg, and Toohey voted Yea and Reps. Nicholia                 
  and Brice voted Nay.  Chair Toohey declared that HB 409 was                  
  so moved.                                                                    
  CHAIR TOOHEY then indicated that HB 337 and HJR 52 would be                  
  heard at the next meeting.                                                   
  Seeing no further business before the committee, CHAIR                       
  TOOHEY ADJOURNED the meeting at 5:00 p.m.                                    

Document Name Date/Time Subjects