Legislature(1993 - 1994)

02/28/1994 03:00 PM HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
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           HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES                         
                       STANDING COMMITTEE                                      
                        February 28, 1994                                      
                            3:00 p.m.                                          
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair                                                
  Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair                                                     
  Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair                                                  
  Rep. Al Vezey                                                                
  Rep. Pete Kott                                                               
  Rep. Harley Olberg                                                           
  Rep. Bettye Davis (via teleconference)                                       
  Rep. Irene Nicholia                                                          
  Rep. Tom Brice                                                               
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
  None                                                                         
                                                                               
  OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                    
                                                                               
  Rep. Mark Hanley                                                             
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  HB 409:   "An Act relating to the maximum amount of                          
            assistance that may be granted under the adult                     
            public assistance program and the program of aid                   
            to families with dependent children: proposing a                   
            special demonstration project within the program                   
            of aid to families with dependent children and                     
            directing the Department of Health and Social                      
            Services to seek waives from the federal                           
            government to implement the project; and providing                 
            for an effective date."                                            
                                                                               
            HEARD AND HELD                                                     
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  JAN HANSEN, Director                                                         
  Division of Public Assistance                                                
  Department of Health and Social Services                                     
  P.O. Box 110640                                                              
  Juneau, Alaska 99811-0640                                                    
  (907) 465-2680                                                               
  Position Statement:  Answered questions on CSHB 409                          
                                                                               
  PUDGE KLEINKAUF                                                              
  4201 Macinnes                                                                
  Anchorage, Alaska 99508                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 561-7113                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified on CSHB 409                                   
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
                                                                               
  ANN SWIFT, Representative                                                    
  Tanana League of Women Voters                                                
  3181 Anella Ave.                                                             
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99709                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 479-2524                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified on CSHB 409                                   
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
                                                                               
  REBECCA ROSSON                                                               
  Member, Board of Directors                                                   
  Alaskans with Disabilities Association                                       
  330 3rd Ave.                                                                 
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99701                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 458-7257                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified on CSHB 409                                   
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
                                                                               
  ROBIN WICKHAM, Member                                                        
  ACCESS Alaska                                                                
  3550 Airport Rd. #3                                                          
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99709                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 479-7940                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in opposition to CSHB 409                     
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
                                                                               
  LOUISE CHARLES, Job Director                                                 
  Tanana Chief Conference                                                      
  1609 Madison Dr.                                                             
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99701                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 452-8251                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in opposition to CSHB 409                     
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
                                                                               
  DAN LABROSSE, Staff Person                                                   
  Deaf Community Services                                                      
  1405 Kellum St.                                                              
  Fairbanks, Alaska 99701                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 456-5913                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in opposition to CSHB 409                     
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
                                                                               
  KENNETH BLATCHFORD                                                           
  P.O. Box 1816                                                                
  Seward, Alaska 99664                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 224-4579                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified in opposition to CSHB 409                     
                       (spoke via teleconference)                              
                                                                               
  PATRICK CUNNINGHAM                                                           
  Member, Board of Directors                                                   
  Alaska Chapter of the National Association of Social Workers                 
  University of Alaska Anchorage                                               
  3211 Providence Dr.                                                          
  Anchorage, Alaska 99508                                                      
  Phone:  (907) 786-1725                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified on CSHB 409                                   
                                                                               
  SHERRIE GOLL, Lobbyist                                                       
  Alaska Women's Lobby; KIDPAC                                                 
  P.O. Box 22156                                                               
  Juneau, Alaska 99802                                                         
  Phone:  (907) 463-6744                                                       
  Position Statement:  Testified on CSHB 409                                   
                                                                               
                                                                               
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB 409                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: AFDC DEMO PROJECT AND DECREASE                                  
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) HANLEY,Therriault                              
  JRN-DATE    JRN-PG                     ACTION                                
  01/28/94      2176    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/28/94      2177    (H)   HES, FINANCE                                     
  02/11/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
  02/11/94              (H)   MINUTE(HES)                                      
  02/28/94              (H)   HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-30, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY called the meeting to order at 3:04 p.m., noted                 
  members present and announced the calendar.  She brought HB
  409 to the table.                                                            
  HB 409 - AFDC DEMO PROJECT AND DECREASE                                      
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked Rep. Mark Hanley to address his bill.                     
                                                                               
  Number 030                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. G. DAVIS asked Rep. Hanley if he wanted to go through a                 
  comparison between the committee substitute (CS) and the                     
  original bill.                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 058                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY stated for the record that Rep. Kott and Rep.                   
  Brice arrived at 3:11 p.m.  She acknowledged that a quorum                   
  was now present.  She also indicated that Rep. Bettye Davis                  
  was on teleconference in Anchorage.                                          
                                                                               
  Number 077                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BUNDE made a motion to adopt the CS for HB 409.                         
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, stated that CSHB 409                    
  was before the committee.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 085                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. MARK HANLEY, Prime Sponsor of HB 409, addressed the CS                  
  for HB 409.  He stated the amendments made in the                            
  subcommittee addressed the concerns of the Department of                     
  Health and Social Services (DHSS).  He said the changes made                 
  were in regards to time lines being set in place and                         
  ensuring that the those times were clear.  He said if the                    
  DHSS could not find enough job slots available in the                        
  community service area, the department will not require the                  
  individuals to participate in the project.  He also said the                 
  income disregard provisions will apply to everybody within                   
  the project, not just those who apply after the effective                    
  date.  He said he could go through the specific line/page                    
  changes if the committee was so inclined.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 177                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked the pleasure of the committee.                            
                                                                               
  REP. G. DAVIS asked for Rep. Hanley to go through those                      
  line/page changes.                                                           
                                                                               
  Number 191                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY indicated that a sentence had been inserted on                   
  page 3, line 6, which read, "To the extent that the federal                  
  government approves the necessary waivers, the department                    
  shall implement the project."  He said the new language                      
  addresses the concern of the DHSS, that if only one waiver                   
  was approved, perhaps it may not be worthwhile to implement                  
  the project.                                                                 
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY stated on page 3, line 10, the phrase, "when                     
  determining the amount of assistance to which an assistance                  
  unit in the project area is entitled," was added.  He said                   
  it indicates that the disregards apply to "both the people                   
  that are currently on it, that will be in the test area, and                 
  the new people that come on it, that will be in the test                     
  group."                                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY indicated that on page 3, line 30, the word "if"                 
  was added to the beginning of the line.  He also indicated                   
  that at the end of the sentence in line 30, the following                    
  sentence was added:  "The department shall assess the                        
  availability of activities that satisfy the purposes of this                 
  subsection within each part of the project area and attempt                  
  to develop additional activities where necessary."  He                       
  stated the provision would not require the participants to                   
  do community service if the DHSS has not made the slots                      
  available.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 270                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BUNDE referred to the phrase "attempt to develop                        
  additional activities" and asked Rep. Hanley how broad the                   
  scope was regarding the attempt.                                             
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY said that would be left to the discretion of the                 
  DHSS.  He felt the DHSS would follow regulations as far as                   
  developing a program for community service.                                  
                                                                               
  REP. BUNDE stated for the record, "I was wanting to have                     
  your (Rep. Hanley) intent in the record.  This could blossom                 
  into a huge WPA project or something."  Rep. Bunde further                   
  stated that "it could be very expensive providing work for                   
  this volunteer opportunity.  And, I don't think that was                     
  your intention or the department's intention."                               
                                                                               
  Number 315                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY said he did not envision the DHSS putting                        
  together a road crew to fill slots.  He said he anticipated                  
  there to be currently operating activities in nonprofit                      
  organizations.                                                               
                                                                               
  Number 330                                                                   
                                                                               
  JAN HANSEN, Director, Division of Public Assistance,                         
  Department of Health and Social Services, answered questions                 
  in Juneau on HB 409.  She stated that the DHSS has not                       
  factored into the fiscal notes anything that would indicate                  
  that the department would start something similar to a WPA                   
  project.  She said the fiscal note includes creating                         
  community service slots similar to the process in the JOBS                   
  program.  Also, there is a process called self-initiating                    
  where the participant looks for employment.  She said it was                 
  intended that the volunteer community service activities                     
  not be well defined.                                                         
                                                                               
                                                                               
  REP. BUNDE said it was not his intent that they be spelled                   
  out in statute.  He clarified that the project would be                      
  ancillary and not the start up of a new bureaucracy.                         
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY stated for the record that both Rep. Vezey and                  
  Rep. Nicholia had arrived at 3:09 p.m.                                       
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY stated that page 5, lines 17-18, indicates the                   
  dates for repealing the waivers and the ratable reductions.                  
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY said page 5, line 18, was added to provide for                   
  the ratable reduction to be implemented January 1, 1995.  He                 
  said there would be start-up costs incurred before the                       
  project even begins.                                                         
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY said page 5, lines 21-25, were rewritten to                      
  clarify the times that the waivers take effect, if and when                  
  they are approved by the federal government.                                 
                                                                               
  Number 447                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked if there were any questions from the                      
  committee.  There were none.  She then announced that                        
  Seward, Fairbanks, and Anchorage were on teleconference.                     
  She indicated that Rep. Bettye Davis was on line in                          
  Anchorage.                                                                   
                                                                               
  Number 476                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS, via teleconference from Anchorage, said she                   
  had no questions.                                                            
                                                                               
  Number 480                                                                   
                                                                               
  PUDGE KLEINKAUF, Concerned Citizen, testified via                            
  teleconference from Anchorage on CSHB 409.  She stated that                  
  she was very concerned about the ratable reduction as it                     
  would decrease payments to Aid to Families with Dependent                    
  Children (AFDC) recipients, which were already cut last                      
  year.  She felt there were other ways to approach the                        
  project.  She said if the University of Alaska Anchorage was                 
  to do the demonstration project, and the Institute for                       
  Social and Economic Research was to head the project, the                    
  cost to the DHSS would be reduced significantly, resulting                   
  in a lesser ratable reduction to AFDC recipients.  She said                  
  the demonstration project is broken down to 65% of the                       
  client group in the demonstration project and 35% in a                       
  control group.  She asked if the control group and the                       
  demonstration group should be the same size and wondered if                  
  the results from the project would be valid.                                 
                                                                               
  Number 544                                                                   
                                                                               
  JAN HANSEN answered that the federal government's office in                  
  health and human services that works with waivers prefers                    
  projects to have a 50% control group and 50% demonstration                   
  group.  She indicated that when the DHSS had discussed with                  
  the federal office the size of the Alaskan populations in                    
  some areas, the federal offices said that a split of 65/35                   
  is acceptable.                                                               
                                                                               
  MS. KLEINKAUF asked the committee to find other ways to fund                 
  the demonstration projects that would not affect the 25,000                  
  children that receive AFDC.  She referred to Rep. G. Davis'                  
  suggestion to use funds from child support enforcement to                    
  offset the ratable reduction to AFDC recipients and stated                   
  that it may be a viable option.  She then asked why the                      
  demonstration could not be operated in conjunction with the                  
  JOBS program.  She asked Ms. Hansen about the citation to                    
  the federal statutes and the code of federal regulations                     
  that would prohibit that option.  She felt that it would be                  
  much more cost effective than setting up a whole new                         
  mechanism to operate the waivers.                                            
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said to her understanding there is no statement                   
  that the JOBS program cannot operate in conjunction with the                 
  demonstration.  She said some of the waivers are part of the                 
  JOBS program, and the state could design a waiver project                    
  that would operate within the JOBS program.  She then stated                 
  that the JOBS program is operated by the state and that the                  
  Native JOBS programs is operated by Native grantees.  She                    
  indicated that under those circumstances there would be some                 
  difficulty in "trying to run a waiver through."  She did,                    
  however, feel that those options could be explored.                          
                                                                               
  Number 645                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE asked Ms. Hansen to expound on why the state                      
  would want to "go through the administrative rigmarole" to                   
  make applications for waivers when the state can already                     
  accomplish the intent through the Family Support Act.                        
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said community service work experience is part of                 
  the JOBS program.  It is a required component, particularly                  
  when the DHSS is serving two-parent unemployed families.                     
  She said community service work experience can be an                         
  additional component for those other than two-parent                         
  families, as long as it meets the employability development                  
  plan within the JOBS program.  There is no prohibition to                    
  expanding community service within the JOBS program;                         
  however, the demonstration is a separate proposal in which                   
  there would be a requirement for those who work in the JOBS                  
  program to participate.                                                      
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE asked why the funds that come from the ratable                    
  reduction could not be invested into JOBS program, child                     
  support, and child care versus employing 23 bureaucrats.  He                 
  felt there would be a greater return by investing in the                     
  lower numbers of people on AFDC.  He asked if that would be                  
  a possibility.                                                               
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said she could only speak to what was in the                      
  bill.  She stated, if Rep. Brice was asking if it was                        
  possible for the DHSS to expand community service work                       
  experience through the JOBS program, the answer was yes.                     
  She said that in terms of it being part of the project, she                  
  would have to defer to the sponsor.                                          
                                                                               
  Number 723                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE asked how successful demonstration projects have                  
  been in other states.  He said it was his understanding the                  
  programs were not instrumental in building strong resumes                    
  and strong incomes for the participants.  He said that                       
  perhaps the projects only kept idle minds from remaining                     
  idle.                                                                        
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN maintained that she has kept up with much of the                  
  literature and recently the Manpower Development Research                    
  Corporation has done evaluation studies of some community                    
  service projects.  She said there is not a lot of experience                 
  at this point.  She said there is sometimes the desire to                    
  require the recipient of AFDC to give something back to the                  
  community in return for receiving benefits.  Also, there is                  
  the philosophy that community service is a way of getting a                  
  person into a workplace and getting hands-on experience.                     
  She said many of the community service work experiences have                 
  not been long term, they have been for small groups of                       
  people.                                                                      
                                                                               
  Number 786                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE asked Rep. Hanley if the goals of the workfare                    
  are to provide experience for the AFDC recipients or to                      
  fulfill a social contract by paying back the community.                      
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY said it was a combination of both.  He further                   
  stated that paid employment along with disregards gives the                  
  recipients the ability to improve their lifestyle.  He said                  
  currently, "after four months, you get to keep $30.00 of                     
  anything you make.  This bill will allow you to keep the                     
  first $200.00 plus a third of that afterwards."  He then                     
  said that giving the disregards and having slots available                   
  provides experience and gets recipients closer to leaving                    
  the program.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 838                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE said, to his understanding, there has been no                     
  hard evidence that indicates recipients subsequently go into                 
  higher paying jobs as a result of participating in the                       
  project.  He reiterated that he felt there are programs                      
  currently available that could benefit from funds generated                  
  by the ratable reduction.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 871                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked for testimony from Fairbanks.                             
                                                                               
  Number 875                                                                   
                                                                               
  ANNE SWIFT, Representative, Tanana Valley League of Women                    
  Voters, testified via teleconference on CSHB 409.  She                       
  stated that she is opposed to cutting AFDC again.  She said                  
  the League of Women Voters believe that if there is going to                 
  be some type of work related program, it should include job                  
  training as financial incentives.  She said that a workfare                  
  program should do more than just get people out of the house                 
  to do a volunteer job.                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 904                                                                   
                                                                               
  REBECCA ROSSON, Member, Board of Directors, Alaskans with                    
  Disabilities Association (ADA), testified via teleconference                 
  from Fairbanks on CSHB 409.  She stated that the bill makes                  
  no provision for people on disability.  She said at the                      
  present time she is totally disabled, receives $409.00 from                  
  welfare a month, has exhausted all other avenues and can not                 
  receive additional help.                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 982                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY interjected and offered Ms. Rosson the office                   
  telephone number of Jan Hansen, Director of the Division of                  
  Public Assistance.                                                           
                                                                               
  MS. ROSSON maintained that the bill does not take under                      
  consideration that there are disabled parents.  She felt                     
  that it didn't make sense to take funds from those who have                  
  very little.                                                                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY proceeded to give the office telephone number                   
  of Ms. Hansen to Ms. Rosson.                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 020                                                                   
                                                                               
  ROBIN WICKHAM, Member, ACCESS Alaska, testified via                          
  teleconference in opposition to CSHB 409.  She stated that                   
  she is opposed to any additional cuts to AFDC or Adult                       
  Public Assistance.  She also said that there are many gray                   
  areas in the bill.  She said additional staff would have to                  
  be hired to supervise and monitor a project of such                          
  magnitude and consequently she felt there could be no                        
  savings.  She said that it takes manpower and money to train                 
  people who are volunteers in community service work.  She                    
  said that nonprofit employees are already overworked and                     
  underpaid and the responsibility of training volunteers from                 
  the community service work program is burdensome.  She                       
  encouraged the committee to think about the individuals who                  
  would be affected by further cuts.                                           
                                                                               
  Number 083                                                                   
                                                                               
  LOUISE CHARLES, Job Coordinator, Tanana Chiefs Conference,                   
  testified via teleconference from Fairbanks in opposition to                 
  CSHB 409.  She stated she is opposed to any cuts to AFDC and                 
  Adult Public Assistance.  She said it is very difficult to                   
  train people to become independently employed and self-                      
  supporting, even with comprehensive job services.  She                       
  maintained that the JOBS program is still quite new and felt                 
  that money would be better spent by adequately funding it                    
  instead of starting a brand new project.  She felt that                      
  rural villages were being overlooked as possibilities for                    
  participating in the project.                                                
                                                                               
  Number 133                                                                   
                                                                               
  DAN LABROSSE, Staff Person, Deaf Community Services,                         
  testified via teleconference from Fairbanks in opposition to                 
  CSHB 409.  He stated that the legislation is "reinventing                    
  the wheel."  He felt there are excellent work programs                       
  provided by the state.  He felt the existing programs should                 
  be more adequately funded and that new projects should not                   
  be started.                                                                  
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-30, SIDE B                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked for testimony from Seward.                                
                                                                               
  Number 005                                                                   
                                                                               
  KENNETH BLATCHFORD, Concerned Citizen, testified via                         
  teleconference from Seward in opposition to CSHB 409.  He                    
  stated that he is opposed to any intent to reduce benefits                   
  to those who really need them.   He felt the legislation                     
  would cause more bureaucracy and end up costing more.  He                    
  also said the existing job programs should be funded instead                 
  of creating another new program.                                             
                                                                               
  Number 080                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked for testimony in Juneau.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 085                                                                   
                                                                               
  PATRICK CUNNINGHAM, Member, Board of Directors, Alaska                       
  Chapter of the National Association of Social Workers,                       
  testified in Juneau on CSHB 409.  He stated that he also had                 
  been a representative on the Welfare Reform Task Force for                   
  the legislature that was charged with implementing the                       
  Family Support Act of 1988.  He said a result of the Family                  
  Support Act is the JOBS program.  He felt if the JOBS                        
  program was fully implemented, it would substantially reduce                 
  welfare caseloads.                                                           
                                                                               
  MR. CUNNINGHAM said the waiver part of CSHB 409 is excellent                 
  in that it gives people extra money by tying them to a job.                  
  He asserted that a waiver process can be very expensive,                     
  citing that workfare has been part of some welfare reform                    
  throughout the United States for quite a while.  He said the                 
  problem with workfare is that as a stand alone program it is                 
  a totally ineffective way of moving people off of public                     
  assistance.  He maintained that most people "jump" at the                    
  opportunity for programs that promote education and                          
  training.  He further stated that single parents can                         
  participate in that program and he felt that if it was not                   
  restricted to just single parents, there would be a lot more                 
  people participating in the program.  He said that the                       
  waiver is positive, but the potential cost is under                          
  reported.                                                                    
                                                                               
  MR. CUNNINGHAM maintained that other states have not funded                  
  demonstration projects with ratable reductions.  He said a                   
  ratable reduction would affect the disabled and the elderly                  
  who would not participate in the project.  He further stated                 
  that the concept of a workfare program would present various                 
  difficulties in the long run.  He suggested fully                            
  implementing the JOBS programs, citing that the federal                      
  government mandates that all AFDC recipients must                            
  participate in the program.  He said the problem is that                     
  only 20% of AFDC recipients are in that program because of                   
  inadequate funding.                                                          
                                                                               
  MR. CUNNINGHAM further suggested that the state should wait                  
  to see the Clinton Administration's plans for welfare                        
  reform, citing that a bill is promised as early as April.                    
  He asserted that if a group is locked into the project for                   
  five years, those participants may not have the opportunity                  
  to be involved in forthcoming welfare programs.  He made a                   
  suggestion to resurrect or create a task force to address                    
  welfare reform that would customize the federal health care                  
  plan into a viable and comprehensive welfare reform plan.                    
                                                                               
  MR. CUNNINGHAM said a bill has been passed at the federal                    
  level for community service.  The bill encourages people to                  
  participate in community service programs voluntarily so as                  
  to receive money or funds to go on to college.  He said it                   
  was federal money that he felt AFDC recipients could take                    
  advantage of.  He stated that the main thrust of CSHB 409                    
  does nothing but reduce benefits to poor people, again.                      
                                                                               
  Number 400                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked for questions.                                            
                                                                               
  REP. G. DAVIS referred to the other states that have                         
  attempted workfare legislation and asked Mr. Cunningham if                   
  the projects requested waivers.                                              
                                                                               
  MR. CUNNINGHAM said he was unsure, but a workfare program is                 
  really ineffective as a stand alone program.                                 
                                                                               
  REP. G. DAVIS asked if there wasn't already enough training                  
  programs.                                                                    
                                                                               
  MR. CUNNINGHAM said the programs are good, but the problem                   
  is low participation rates due to inadequate funding.                        
                                                                               
  Number 457                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. NICHOLIA stated that the JOBS program is a very new                     
  program and not many people know about it.  She said that                    
  people have to feel secure within a program and that they                    
  won't be thrown out into the streets without their benefits.                 
                                                                               
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY commented that it is a very valid program.                      
                                                                               
  Number 480                                                                   
                                                                               
  SHERRIE GOLL, Lobbyist, Alaska Women's Lobby and KIDPAC,                     
  testified in Juneau on CSHB 409.  She stated that she was                    
  concerned about the ratable reductions and the inclusion of                  
  adult public assistance in those reductions.  She said she                   
  could not find one other state that has paid for its welfare                 
  reform demonstration projects through waivers by taking                      
  funds away from the aged, blind, and disabled.  She asserted                 
  that there are 10,000 people who cannot benefit in any way                   
  from the projects.  She urged the committee to consider                      
  eliminating the adult public assistance cut entirely.  She                   
  further urged the committee to perhaps find an entirely                      
  different way to fund the project.  She felt that the JOBS                   
  program is more relative to the needs of those on AFDC and                   
  is very successful, but should be fully funded.  She offered                 
  an anecdote of a mother she met on the bus who participates                  
  in Project Career and is being trained to become a                           
  supervisor in the area of bookkeeping.  She said that the                    
  women attends the training courses and participates in                       
  community service work, both of which leave her very little                  
  time with her four children.  Subsequently, Ms. Goll stated,                 
  most people do not want to be on public assistance.  She                     
  also said there would be a displacement problem as a result                  
  of organizations hiring uncompensated workers.                               
                                                                               
  Number 713                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY said the displacement of jobs had been                          
  addressed previously.                                                        
                                                                               
  REP. NICHOLIA said in her experience in working with public                  
  assistance recipients that there was never enough money in                   
  the JOBS program.  She stated for the record that she had                    
  "worked with Martha Halverson of DCRA in Fairbanks, and                      
  every time we tried to get people that were on welfare into                  
  the vocational training center, we always ran into money                     
  problems with JTPA."                                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY said it is an expensive program.  She asked for                 
  further questions or testimony.                                              
                                                                               
  Number 739                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE said he missed the displacement discussion and                    
  asked if Rep. Hanley could address the issue.  He also asked                 
  what alternatives the state has when the project is locked                   
  in for five years and in a year and a half "the feds say, go                 
  ahead and do it... after we've expended all this money on                    
  administration."                                                             
  REP. HANLEY suggested that even in the JOBS program the                      
  issue of job displacement exists.  He said the legislation                   
  would not force anything on nonprofits.                                      
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE maintained that the difference between the JOBS                   
  program participants and the workfare participants would be                  
  that the JOBS participant would be getting paid versus being                 
  free labor.  He asked Ms. Hansen if that was correct.                        
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said the JOBS participants currently either do                    
  community service work or job sampling, are not paid, and                    
  receive their AFDC benefit.  She addressed the issue of                      
  displacement.  She felt it will be an unresolved issue until                 
  the nation decides to what degree community service should                   
  be done.  She said the response she has received from                        
  nonprofits indicates that they have a lot of work that is                    
  not being done because they have more work to do than people                 
  to do it.                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 829                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE asked Ms. Anderson to address the issue of the                    
  project being locked in for five years and the circumstances                 
  resulting from the federal government assuming the                           
  project(s) at their level.                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY referred to a possible amendment that Rep. Brice                 
  had shared with him that would allow a state to stop the                     
  waiver programs if indeed the federal government undertakes                  
  various state projects.  He acknowledged that the project                    
  could benefit from some flexibility in that area.                            
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE asked, if the federal government was to offer                     
  disregards that are proposed in the demonstration, would                     
  there be the potential that the state could not provide the                  
  rest of the state with those disregards because of the                       
  effect they would have on the demonstration project?                         
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said that in the course of negotiations with the                  
  federal government for a waiver, the terms and conditions                    
  can be negotiated.  She said if the waiver becomes a part of                 
  federal law, the project could be halted or revised.                         
                                                                               
  Number 894                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY read from Colorado state law, which indicated                    
  that a mutually agreed upon strategy for dealing with the                    
  demonstration would be arrived at by both the state and                      
  federal government.  The law further indicated that if a                     
  mutual strategy cannot be agreed upon, then each department                  
  reserves the right to withdraw any and all waivers.  Rep.                    
  Hanley said that the statute indicates that flexibility can                  
  be incorporated into the waiver negotiations.                                
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY stated that her intention was to hold the bill                  
  in committee until appropriate changes have been made.                       
                                                                               
  REP. G. DAVIS agreed with the intent of the bill, but said                   
  the discussions within the meeting pertaining to workfare                    
  programs, the JOBS program, and perhaps the use of                           
  alternative funding has made him feel that the proposal                      
  warrants further discussions.                                                
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY asked for comments from Rep. B. Davis.                          
                                                                               
  Number 947                                                                   
  REP. B. DAVIS asked Rep. Hanley what citation he was reading                 
  from.                                                                        
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY replied that the statutory excerpt that he read                  
  was from a waiver in Colorado pertaining to the terms and                    
  conditions that the state had with the federal government.                   
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if that waiver was approved.                             
                                                                               
  REP. HANLEY said yes.                                                        
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked what the intention of the committee was                  
  regarding the bill that day.                                                 
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY said the committee would hold the bill over and                 
  then asked when Rep. B. Davis would return to Juneau.                        
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS said she was unsure and indicated that her                     
  return time depends on the outcome of her medical                            
  appointment the following day.  She further stated that her                  
  concerns had been voiced very well by others in the meeting.                 
  She felt another way should be found to fund the project.                    
  She said she noticed that a savings is indicated in the                      
  second year and asked why that is.  She said she felt that                   
  the savings would perhaps indicate that the project is                       
  working, but she felt it shouldn't be a goal to put money                    
  back into the general fund.  She also stated that most                       
  states that have similar projects do not use funds from                      
  sources like AFDC.  She asked someone to speak to the                        
  aforementioned issues.                                                       
                                                                               
  Number 991                                                                   
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE reiterated the questions posed by Rep. B. Davis.                  
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN asked Rep. B. Davis which year she was referring                  
  to regarding savings.                                                        
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-31, SIDE A                                                           
  Number 000                                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN asked again which year Rep. B. Davis was                          
  referring to.                                                                
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS said she was referring to the second year of                   
  the project.                                                                 
                                                                               
  MS. HANSEN said the analysis created a ratable reduction,                    
  which in the most expensive year of the project matches the                  
  cost of the project based on the original project cost.                      
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS asked if someone could work up different                       
  percentages for ratable reductions and suggested .7% instead                 
  of 1.7%.                                                                     
                                                                               
  REP. BRICE suggested a change in the ratable to make it                      
  revenue neutral.                                                             
                                                                               
  REP. B. DAVIS agreed.                                                        
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY said there was no response to Rep. B. Davis'                    
  request.  She said, "we could certainly come up with those                   
  numbers."  She then asked if Rep. B. Davis had more comments                 
  or questions.                                                                
  REP. B. DAVIS said she could wait if the bill was going to                   
  be held.                                                                     
                                                                               
  CHAIR TOOHEY said she would inform Rep. B. Davis of the date                 
  for the next subcommittee meeting.  She asked for further                    
  comments.  There were none.  She then indicated that a                       
  subcommittee meeting would be set up to address the concerns                 
  brought up in the meeting.  She then asked if that was the                   
  wish of the committee.  There was no argument.                               
                                                                               
  Seeing no further business before the committee, CHAIR                       
  TOOHEY ADJOURNED the meeting at 4:25 p.m.                                    

Document Name Date/Time Subjects