Legislature(1993 - 1994)
02/08/1993 03:00 PM HES
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE February 8, 1993 3:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair Rep. Al Vezey Rep. Pete Kott Rep. Harley Olberg Rep. Bettye Davis Rep. Irene Nicholia Rep. Tom Brice MEMBERS ABSENT None SPECIAL GUESTS Rep. Gail Phillips COMMITTEE CALENDAR *HB 114: "An Act allowing the Board of Nursing to authorize an advanced nurse practitioner to dispense medical, therapeutic, and corrective measures." PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS HB 79: "An Act relating to recovery from a parent or legal guardian of wilful or malicious destruction of property by a minor." PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS *HB 97: "An Act clarifying the responsibilities of the Department of Health and Social Services and parents for children who are committed to the custody of the department and are placed by the department with the parents; and providing for an effective date." PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS *HB 2: "An Act requiring drug and alcohol tests for school bus drivers." PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS *HB 100: "An Act relating to criminal charges brought against minors." PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS *HB 78: "An Act relating to the testimony of children in certain criminal proceedings; and providing for an effective date." PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS * First public hearing. WITNESS REGISTER REP. CYNTHIA TOOHEY Alaska State Legislature State Capitol, Room 104 Juneau, Alaska 998101-1182 Phone: (907) 465-4919 Position Statement: Prime Sponsor of HB 114 PATRICIA HONG Alaska Nurses Association 237 E. Third Ave. #3 Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Phone: (907) 274-0827 Position Statement: Supported HB 114 DARYL YOUNG, Director Student Health Service University of Alaska, Anchorage 3211 Providence Drive Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Phone: (907) 786-4040 Position Statement: Supported HB 114 DR. DIXIE LIGHT P.O. Box 382 Houston, Alaska 99694 Phone: (907) 892-8804 Position Statement: Supported HB 114 SUE ANN JENKENSON, Member Alaska Nurses Association 237 E. Third Ave. #3 Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Phone: (907) 274-0827 Position Statement: Supported HB 114 GAIL McGUILL, Executive Secretary Board of Nursing 3601 C St. Anchorage, Alaska 99503 Phone: (907) 561-2878 Position Statement: Supported HB 114 KAY LAHDENPERA Municipality of Anchorage P.O. Box 196650 Anchorage, Alaska 99519 Phone: (907) 343-4624 Position Statement: Supported HB 114 DR. PETER NAKAMURA, Director Division of Public Health Department of Health and Social Services P.O. Box 110610 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0610 Phone: (907) 465-3090 Position Statement: Supported HB 114 VINCE USERA Assistant Attorney General Civil Division Department of Law P.O. Box 110300 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300 Phone: (907) 465-2398 Position Statement: Answered questions on HB 79 DIANNE OLSEN Assistant Attorney General Civil Division Department of Law P.O. Box 110300 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300 Phone: (907) 269-5100 Position Statement: Answered questions on HB 79 DEBORAH WING, Director Division of Family and Youth Services Department of Health and Social Services P.O. Box 100630 Juneau, Alaska 99801-0630 Phone: (907) 465-3191 Position Statement: Supported HB 97 REP. GAIL PHILLIPS Alaska State Legislature State Capitol, Room 216 Juneau, Alaska 99811-1182 Phone: (907) 465-2689 Position Statement: Prime Sponsor of HB 2 GARY BADER, Director Division of Administrative Services Department of Education 801 W. 10th St. Juneau, Alaska 99801-1894 Phone: (907) 465-2875 Position Statement: Answered questions on HB 2 KATHY WELTZIN Student Assistance Counselor Floyd Dryden Middle School 10014 Crazy Horse Dr. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 463-1850 Position Statement: Supported HB 100 SHERRIE GOLL, Lobbyist Alaska Women's Lobby P.O. Box 22156 Juneau, Alaska 99802 Phone: (907) 463-6744 Position Statement: Opposed HB 100 DONNA SCHULTZ, Associate Coordinator Division of Family and Youth Services Department of Health and Social Services P.O. Box 100630 Juneau, Alaska 99801-0630 Phone: (907) 465-3191 Position Statement: Answered questions on HB 100 RENA BUKOVICH Aide to Rep. Eileen MacLean Alaska State Legislature Room 507 Capitol Building Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Phone: (907) 465-672 Position Statement: Represented sponsor of HB 78 JERRY LUCKHAUPT Legislative Legal Counsel Division of Legal Affairs Legislative Affairs Agency 130 Seward St. Juneau, Alaska 99801-2105 Phone: (907) 465-2450 Position Statement: Drafted HB 78, answered questions PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 114 SHORT TITLE: DRUG DISPENSING:ADV. NURSE PRACTITIONERS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) TOOHEY,Davies,MacLean,Bunde,B.Davis,James TITLE: "An Act allowing the Board of Nursing to authorize an advanced nurse practitioner to dispense medical, therapeutic, and corrective measures." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 02/01/93 199 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 02/01/93 199 (H) HES, LABOR & COMMERCE 02/03/93 224 (H) COSPONSOR(S): JAMES 02/08/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 79 SHORT TITLE: DAMAGE TO PROPERTY BY MINORS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BUNDE,Toohey,Porter, Olberg,Green TITLE: "An Act relating to recovery from a parent or legal guardian of wilful or malicious destruction of property by a minor." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/22/93 130 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/22/93 130 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 01/29/93 184 (H) COSPONSOR(S): PORTER 02/03/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 02/05/93 240 (H) COSPONSOR(S): OLBERG, GREEN BILL: HB 97 SHORT TITLE: PARENTAL CARE FOR CHILD IN STATE CUSTODY BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES TITLE: "An Act clarifying the responsibilities of the Department of Health and Social Services and parents for children who are committed to the custody of the department and are placed by the department with the parents; and providing for an effective date." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/29/93 177 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/29/93 178 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 02/08/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 2 SHORT TITLE: DRUG TESTING FOR SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) PHILLIPS TITLE: "An Act requiring drug and alcohol tests for school bus drivers." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/04/93 25 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 01/11/93 25 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/11/93 25 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 02/08/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 100 SHORT TITLE: PROSECUTION OF JUVENILE FELONS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BUNDE,Green TITLE: "An Act relating to criminal charges brought against minors." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/29/93 178 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/29/93 178 (H) HES, JUDICIARY 02/03/93 224 (H) COSPONSOR(S): GREEN 02/05/93 240 (H) HES WAIVED 5-DAY HEARING NOTICE,RULE 23 02/08/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 78 SHORT TITLE: TESTIMONY OF MINORS IN CRIMINAL TRIALS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MACLEAN,Toohey TITLE: "An Act relating to the testimony of children in certain criminal proceedings; and providing for an effective date." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/22/93 129 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/22/93 130 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 02/08/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-11A, SIDE A Number 000 CHAIR TOOHEY called the meeting to order at 3:08 p.m. and noted members present. She announced that the meeting was being teleconferenced to Anchorage, but Barrow had not yet come on-line. She reminded participants that, as there was no opposition to HB 114, it would be advisable to hurry through testimony on it. She then turned over the chair's gavel to C-Chair Con Bunde, who invited Rep. Toohey to testify. HB 114: EXTEND TOURISM MARKETING COUNCIL Number 064 REP. CYNTHIA TOOHEY testified as sponsor of HB 114. She related the story of an Anchorage nurse practitioner who asked the state licensing bureau why she was not allowed to dispense medication, as most nurse practitioners are advanced registered nurses operating in the Bush and they are able to prescribe medicines, but are not allowed to dispense them. She said the bill would allow advanced nurse practitioners (ANPs) to dispense medicines when there is no pharmacy available. She cited 126 letters from advanced nurse practitioners about the bill, and a letter from state pharmacists showing no opposition. She said the Indian Health Service uses many advanced nurse practitioners in villages, and to bar them from dispensing would do damage to the state. Number 108 PATRICIA HONG, PRESIDENT OF THE ALASKA NURSES ASSOCIATION, testified from Anchorage in support of HB 114. She urged support so that advanced nurse practitioners could continue the proven valuable services they provide to rural and indigent patients. DARYL YOUNG, DIRECTOR OF STUDENT HEALTH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA-ANCHORAGE, testified from Anchorage in support of HB 114. He said ANPs often need to dispense medications when there is no accessible pharmacy, or when clients cannot pay for medications and dispensation. When ANPs can dispense medications, patients are more likely to obtain and take their medications. The university student health center has 8,000 potential patients, many of them lacking money, health insurance, time and inclination to comply with medical orders. Giving ANPs dispensary privileges, even in urban areas, will dramatically increase prompt and proper compliance with medical orders, he said. He also noted that the drugs dispensed at the student health center are premeasured and prepackaged, and none are compounded on-site. Number 183 CHAIR BUNDE noted that the Matanuska-Susitna Legislative Information Office (LIO) was on-line. He asked witnesses to limit testimony to two minutes to save time. Number 186 DR. DIXIE LIGHT, A FAMILY NURSE-PRACTITIONER, testified from the Mat-Su LIO. She said her patients in the Mat-Su valley and north along the Parks Highway have little access to drugstores and therefore may wait days before going to town to fill the prescription, possibly too late. The ability to prescribe supports her simple, rural practice, serving low- income patients with medical care and information. Number 202 SUE ANN JENKENSON, A MEMBER OF THE ALASKA NURSE PRACTITIONER ASSOCIATION (transmission partially unintelligible) testified from Anchorage in support of HB 114. She said the change was necessary to provide complete care to patients too poor to buy medicines or live in rural areas far from pharmacies. Nurse practitioners in Alaska have been able to practice independently since 1984, and to prescribe since 1985, and dispensing would complement these abilities. Number 222 GAIL McGUILL, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY FOR THE ALASKA BOARD OF NURSING, testified from Anchorage in support of HB 114. She said ANP dispensing does occur around the state. A November 1992 survey of nurse practitioners in Alaska showed that 55 percent of the state's nurse practitioners dispense medicine, with 25 percent of nurse practitioners working in areas without pharmacies, and 22 percent in areas without physicians. Ms. McGuill stated HB 114 would help prevent degradation of such services. She said the Boards of Nursing and Pharmacy have cooperated to set parameters for ANP dispensing, and the parameters of ANP dispensation will be defined by Board of Nursing regulation. Number 248 KAY LAHDENPERA, OF THE MUNICIPALITY OF ANCHORAGE, testified from Anchorage in support of HB 114. She said the municipality has employed and used nurse practitioners since 1984 and would be glad to see them win dispensing authority, the better to serve their clients. Number 264 DR. PETER NAKAMURA, DIRECTOR OF THE DIVISION OF PUBLIC HEALTH, testified in support of HB 114. He said it aids in access and cost containment. Number 272 CHAIR BUNDE closed public testimony and asked the will of the committee. REP. AL VEZEY moved passage of HB 114 from the committee with individual recommendations. Hearing no objections to the motion, CHAIR BUNDE declared HB 114 PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. HB 79: DAMAGE TO PROPERTY BY MINORS Number 281 REP. TOOHEY called an at-ease. She then resumed the chair's gavel and brought to the table HB 79, held over from the previous week's meeting to satisfy a legal question. She introduced VINCE USERA of the DEPARTMENT OF LAW to answer any legal questions from the committee. REP. BUNDE moved passage of HB 79 out of the committee with individual recommendations. REP. B. DAVIS complained that HB 79 was not on the committee calendar, that she had not brought the bill folder, and that she did not know what the legal questions were. She asked whoever had questions to pose them. CHAIR TOOHEY said the reason HB 79 was held over was to answer legal questions on raising the damage level to $50,000 from $2,000, and that Mr. Usera was available to answer any such questions. She also noted that the meeting calendar gave notice that bills held over from previous meetings may be heard. Number 300 VINCE USERA, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF LAW, said he saw no reason why the damage limit could not be raised. CHAIR TOOHEY called a brief at-ease, then called the meeting back to order. Number 310 REP. VEZEY recalled previous questions from an insurance lobbyist about whether such property damage compensation payments could be claimed under homeowner's insurance policies. Number 320 MR. USERA said he could not answer; it depended upon the specific insurance policy. He said the current statute provided for separate civil action under which the victim of a juvenile could recover up to $2,000 and the only change in the new statute would be to raise the limit to $50,000. Number 336 CHAIR TOOHEY repeated the motion, and hearing no objections, declared HB 114 PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. HB 97: PARENTAL CARE FOR CHILD IN STATE CUSTODY Number 344 CHAIR TOOHEY brought HB 97 to the table. DIANNE OLSEN, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL IN THE HUMAN SERVICES SECTION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF LAW, testified from Anchorage, making herself available to answer questions on HB 97. She referred to SB 396, from the 1992 legislative session, which was drafted in response to the Alaska Supreme Court decision on the case In re E.A.O. That court decision indicated that the statute as constructed required the Department of Health and Social Services to retain responsibility to provide food, shelter, education and medical care for children it had removed from abusive homes and assumed legal custody of, even after they were returned to the family. Ms. Olsen said that some attorneys in Anchorage representing parents have argued not only that the department is responsible for children's medical care, but also for first and last months' rent for housing, and for counseling not approved by the department. She said the department had not contemplated assuming such responsibility and felt HB 97 might correct the situation. Number 375 REP. VEZEY asked why HB 97 includes language restricting the state from assuming responsibility for granting a child permission to enlist in the armed services. MS. OLSEN said she could not answer, but the enlistment language had been in the statute for years. Number 388 CHAIR TOOHEY noted that a bill similar to HB 97, introduced by the House HESS Committee, passed both houses of the legislature without opposition in 1992, but died in the closing days of the session. She said the sponsors of the bill last year felt there was a danger that, if children were not placed back with their families, the high cost of caring for children might discourage the state from assuming care for them. REP. BUNDE asked whether HB 97 should not carry a negative fiscal note, given that it might save the state the potential medical, educational and housing costs. He also asked whether such potential bills were accounted for in the department's budget. MS. OLSEN answered that In re E.A.O involved a child whose medical bills exceeded $100,000. She said she did not know whether, following the 1991 Supreme Court decision, the department had to pay such costs. She said she thought the department had waited until after the decision to see about budgeting for such costs in hopes that last year's bill would pass. She said a negative fiscal not was not appropriate. Number 418 DEBORAH WING, DIRECTOR OF THE DIVISION OF FAMILY AND YOUTH SERVICES IN THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES, testified in support of HB 97. REP. PETE KOTT asked for an example of a case in which, under current practice, the department would remove a child from his home, then return him. MS. WING said it could happen that the Department of Health and Social Services could determine a child was in an unsafe home and remove him. But after helping rectify the problems in the home, the department could return the child to the parents' physical custody, while still retaining legal custody. REP. KOTT asked if the department might ever remove a child from one parent but later return him to a different parent, if the parents were divorced or separated, or even joined with other partners who might then be considered step- parents. MS. WING answered that there is a potential for a child to be returned to a different home than the one from which he was removed. (Rep. Gail Phillips arrived at 3:36 p.m.) Number 446 REP. GARY DAVIS asked what responsibility the state would have for informing the parents of any medical problems their child might develop while in state custody. MS. WING answered that if a removed child is found to have medical problems, then the department will (unintelligible) the parents upon the child's return to the home, as appropriate. She said the question would remain as to the duration of the department's financial responsibility for medical care of the child while he was living in his parent's home, "until the department got out of a case plan with the child and family." REP. G. DAVIS noted that parents might be surprised by a child's potentially expensive medical condition upon his return. MS. OLSEN said that was correct. CHAIR TOOHEY asked for and received clarification from Rep. Davis on his question. Number 486 MS. WING added that if a child under state custody was found to have medical problems, then the state would notify the parents upon the child's return. But because the state would not have fully dismissed its custody of the child, it would retain responsibility for the costs of medical treatment even after return to the home. REP. KOTT asked where the statute indicates that the state would assume financial responsibility. He said that creates a dangerous situation in which parents might unload children with severe medical problems into state custody. MS. WING agreed with Rep. Kott. She said the state is now responsible for children in both their physical and legal custody, but HB 97 pertains to children in the state's legal custody but in their parents' physical custody. Number 505 REP. B. DAVIS expressed confusion about Ms. Wing's answers. She asked whether parents might be allowed to pay some of the costs of medical care for children even if the children are in the state's legal custody. MS. WING answered yes. REP. B. DAVIS stated that the Department of Family and Youth Services (DFYS) is required to plan a way to return to parental custody any child for which it assumes legal custody. She added that the parents are not kept ignorant of a child's medical condition while the child is under state custody. She said the bill clarifies the fact that after a child returns to physical custody of the parents, the state would be relieved of responsibility for medical bills. Number 537 REP. OLBERG asked again why HB 97 restricts the state from delegating authority to grant a child permission to enlist in the military. MS. WING said she would have to find the answer later. REP. VEZEY said he understood the bill to mean that the authority to grant permission to marry or enlist could not be delegated by the department. Number 554 CHAIR TOOHEY said she read HB 97 to mean that the department could not grant a child under its custody permission to enlist; only the parents had that power to grant such permission. REP. VEZEY said he interpreted HB 97 to read that parents whose children had been removed into state custody forfeited the authority to grant permission for military enlistment, which is required of 17-year-olds. However, he acknowledged he may have read the bill incorrectly. REP. BUNDE said it is likely the state does not want the power over a child's enlistment; that power must remain with the parents. CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no further questions, closed testimony on HB 97. REP. B. DAVIS moved that the bill be passed with individual recommendations and a zero fiscal note. Number 566 CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, declared HB 97 PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. She announced the teleconferenced portion of the meeting was concluded. HB 2: DRUG TESTING FOR SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS CHAIR TOOHEY brought HB 2 to the table and introduced Rep. Gail Phillips. TAPE 93-11A, SIDE B Number 000 REP. GAIL PHILLIPS testified as SPONSOR OF HB 2. She said she introduced the bill to help insure the safe transportation of students to and from school, and that an identical bill died at the end of last year's legislative session. The bill would require school districts or Rural Education Attendance Areas providing student transportation to establish a drug and alcohol testing program, including random testing at least once a year. She said current state law provides for similar testing requirements in the case of an accident or when reasonable cause exists. Though a Legislative Affairs Legal Services memo raised the possibility of challenges to the bill on probable cause grounds, some courts have allowed random tests when public interest is sufficiently great, Rep. Phillips said. She said childrens' safety is of utmost public interest, and state law already provides for testing of truck drivers, pilots and train engineers. Other states have passed similar laws. She referred to a 1991 North Slope Borough drug testing policy and to a Legislative Research Agency report for more information. Number 068 REP. IRENE NICHOLIA asked how HB 2 would affect rural areas, and how rural districts would effect drug and alcohol tests. REP. PHILLIPS invited Department of Education officials to answer those questions. Number 082 GARY BADER, DIRECTOR OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION (DOE), said rural areas would take urine samples and mail them to testing labs. The state would have to put out the testing services to bid to find a lab. REP. NICHOLIA said her district includes many remote villages where mail service can take a week. MR. BADER said the DOE would find a way to get the tests done properly. Number 100 REP. BUNDE asked how the districts would test for alcohol, which is also required under the bill. CHAIR TOOHEY said urinalysis samples used in drug tests normally are good for 72 hours. She also asked if all bus drivers in small villages are (unintelligible), and received an affirmative answer. REP. HARLEY OLBERG said some mail order urinalysis tests have additives that extend their viability for testing purposes to several days. Number 130 REP. VEZEY asked the impetus for the law. He said Title 48, part 40, of the Code of Federal Regulations requires him, as an employer, to provide a drug-free workplace. He asked why all employers are not subject to such laws. REP. PHILLIPS said commercial bus drivers and other commercial drivers now must pass drug and alcohol testing, though school bus drivers do not in Alaska, even under new commercial driver's license requirements taking effect in April. Number 156 REP. BUNDE asked why the testing did not require all school employees, including crossing guards. REP. PHILLIPS said she would consider that a rhetorical question. REP. OLBERG suggested it was because school bus drivers are not represented by the National Education Association (NEA). REP. PETE asked why the bill did not cover school crossing guards. CHAIR TOOHEY said she believed the bill includes those who are in command of moving vehicles, including airplane pilots, train engineers, tractor drivers, and school bus drivers. Number 172 REP. PHILLIPS said school crossing guards are often volunteers. REP. KOTT raised the issue of randomness. He said administering truly random tests, instead of a test at least once a year, would save money while still creating the fear of imminent unannounced testing that would encourage abstinence from drugs. REP. PHILLIPS said bus drivers should receive a test at the time of hiring. MR. BADER stated the random testing schedule laid out in the bill would serve as a deterrent nearly as good as true randomness. REP. OLBERG noted that the fiscal note said each district would have to have its bus drivers tested at least once a year. REP. NICHOLIA asked if HB 2 would affect boat or airplane drivers. REP. PHILLIPS answered no. She also referred to the North Slope Borough's testing law as an example of how rural districts have implemented such a program. Number 225 REP. NICHOLIA asked about the likelihood of "probable cause" legal challenges. REP. PHILLIPS said she did not care about the privacy of a bus driver who is drunk or using drugs when weighed against the safety of children. She said the fact that courts have upheld such laws in Alaska, and that other states have similar laws, far outweighs the possibility of violating a driver's privacy. Number 235 REP. NICHOLIA asked why no fiscal note reflected the cost of defending legal challenges. REP. PHILLIPS said she saw no need to budget for legal challenges she did not expect to receive. Number 244 REP. VEZEY expressed concern that HB 2 implies that the 62 school districts were not now in compliance with federal law to maintain drug-free workplaces. MR. BADER said he felt the intent of the bill was to serve as a deterrent in addition to the laws already on the books. Number 270 REP. KOTT repeated his concerns about the randomness of testing as outlined in HB 2. Number 285 REP. B. DAVIS said the committee could attach a letter of intent regarding the randomness of the tests so that state regulations could address such questions. Number 294 MR. BADER stated that the random nature of the tests needs only to be sufficient to be meaningful. CHAIR TOOHEY closed public hearing on HB 2 and asked the will of the committee. REP. BUNDE moved passage with individual recommendations. Hearing no objections, CHAIR TOOHEY announced HB 2 PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. She then called a five minute at-ease at 4:10 p.m. HB 100: PROSECUTION OF JUVENILE FELONS Number 314 CHAIR TOOHEY called the meeting back to order at 4:15 p.m. and brought HB 100 to the table. Number 317 REP. BUNDE, PRIME SPONSOR, testified in support of HB 100. He said it is an attempt to encourage young people to be responsible for their behavior. The bill's thrust is to change the burden of proof in deciding how to deal with juveniles charged with major felonies. The bill would lift the responsibility from the prosecution to show why a juvenile should be tried as an adult, to the defense to show why a juvenile should be tried as a juvenile, enjoying the confidentiality of records and release from incarceration at age 20. REP. BUNDE noted that HB 100 does not eliminate the possibility of granting waivers to such juveniles, allowing them to be dealt with through the juvenile justice system. He said the bill stems from his experience of watching children go unpunished for their violations and gradually develop into incorrigible criminals. By establishing serious consequences for juvenile offenders, the bill would help deter children from committing crimes, he said. Number 360 KATHY WELTZIN, STUDENT ASSISTANCE COUNSELOR AT FLOYD DRYDEN MIDDLE SCHOOL IN JUNEAU, testified in support of HB 100. She related that the had discussed the bill with school counselors, a vice principal, a principal, a police officer, and a public health nurse, all of whom work with children, and was surprised at their unanimous support for such a bill. She was told that children need to be accountable; that the current system enables juvenile violators to continue criminal behavior; that children understand and exploit their advantages in the juvenile justice system; and that children view their nonage as a time to practice criminal techniques at low risk of serious punishment. She said adults owe children "tough love" and clear boundaries for acceptable behavior. She acknowledged that she did not ask children how they felt, and admitted she was remiss in not doing so. Number 395 MS. WING, DIRECTOR, DFYS, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH & SOCIAL SERVICES, testified in favor of a bill to waive juvenile offenders into adult court. She said the department would need clarification of language in the bill concerning where juvenile offenders would be housed while the decision was made as to where he would be tried. REP. BUNDE agreed that the question of housing juvenile offenders was vague in light of the pending fate of a governor's proposal to create "boot camps" for them. He noted that while judges are hesitant to place young offenders into adult jails, it was not clear what form juvenile facilities would take. Number 414 REP. NICHOLIA mentioned that state law prohibits placing juveniles into adult prisons. Number 420 SHERRIE GOLL, LOBBYIST FOR THE ALASKA WOMEN'S LOBBY, testified in opposition to HB 100. She said she has long opposed such legislation, and argued that the current system allows judges to determine whether juvenile offenders should be tried as juveniles or waived into adult court. She referred to a case in which police did not insist on having a juvenile's parents present during questioning, which led to the overruling of a judge's order to waive the juvenile into adult court, and blamed police, not the current system, for the error. She said the juvenile justice system may need to be able to hold children in custody past the age of 20 to allow for lengthy court proceedings. Number 478 REP. BUNDE voiced a difference of opinion on fiscal notes for HB 100, in terms of how different state departments would be affected by the bill. He said the decision to waive a juvenile into adult court must entail an additional hearing, contrary to the provisions of a similar state Senate bill that would not allow such a hearing. He said erring on the side of caution, even at the cost of more time, would help ensure justice were done. He said 15 and 16 year olds are more sophisticated than in the past. He expressed concern that juveniles released from the juvenile justice system at age 20, with records of their crimes sealed from public view, might pose a danger to the public at large, and referred to such a case in Alaska. Number 505 REP. NICHOLIA asked why there was no fiscal note from the Department of Law, and whether he had sought a position paper from the department. REP. BUNDE answered that there was a fiscal note from the Department of Administration, but he had not asked for one from the Department of Law. He said he had spoken with legislative research and legal offices, which helped write the bill. He said a sectional analysis was done by Legislative Legal Services. TAPE 93-11B, SIDE A Number 000 REP. BRICE asked for a prediction of the increase in jail populations through passage of HB 100. REP. BUNDE said the support materials for the bill included numbers of people who might be tried, then either be waived into adult court or not. He said four people were tried as adults in 1990 who might fall under this bill, six in 1989, and one in 1988. He did not know how many people would be tried under the bill in the future, but predicted defense attorneys would work hard to see their juvenile clients tried in juvenile court. Number 030 REP. BRICE asked about housing alternatives for juvenile offenders other than the "boot camps" proposed by the governor. REP. BUNDE said that, as state law bars incarcerating juveniles and adults in close proximity, it might be possible to place juvenile offenders in adult prisons but keep them separate. Number 050 REP. OLBERG said he could not imagine that housing would not be addressed in regulations that might be written to implement the bill. Number 070 DONNA SCHULTZ, ASSOCIATE COORDINATOR FOR DFYS, asked where juvenile offenders would be housed after arrest for crimes that might lead to eventual trial as an adult. REP. BRICE asked whether juveniles housed in the juvenile corrections system would need to be separated from other offenders convicted of lesser crimes. Number 100 MS. SCHULTZ said juveniles are now held in juvenile facilities awaiting the waiver decision. Once waived into adult court, the juvenile offenders are immediately sent to adult facilities. REP. BUNDE said he believed state law requires juvenile offenders to be held separately from adults. Number 135 CHAIR TOOHEY closed testimony on HB 100 and asked the will of the committee. REP. OLBERG moved passage with individual recommendations. REP. NICHOLIA objected, citing a desire for a fiscal note and position statement from the Department of Law, and clarification of the housing questions. REP. OLBERG said the offices of Public Advocacy and Public Defenders are part of the Department of Law, and asked whether their fiscal notes were not sufficient. Number 167 REP. BUNDE encouraged passage of HB 100, and said that other committees of referral might better answer such questions. CHAIR TOOHEY announced a roll call vote on the motion. The vote was 6-2. Those voting yea were Reps. Toohey, Bunde, G. Davis, Vezey, Kott, Olberg, B. Davis. Those voting nay were Reps. Nicholia and Brice. Therefore, HB 100 was PASSED OUT WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. HB 78: TESTIMONY OF MINORS IN CRIMINAL TRIALS Number 187 House Bill 78 was brought to the table. Number 190 RENA BUKOVICH, STAFF AIDE TO REP. EILEEN MACLEAN, PRIME SPONSOR, testified on HB 78. She read the sponsor statement from Rep. MacLean (on file in the committee room) saying that current law allows courts to allow child victims or witnesses to testify via closed circuit television or one-way mirrors to allow effective communication and to avoid trauma to the child. The bill would allow courts to extend those privileges up to the age of 16. She said the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld such procedures as outweighing an accused's right to confront witnesses against him. MS. BUKOVICH said that a position paper on HB 78 from the Public Defender's office indicated that without compelling state interest, such a law suffers constitutional infirmity. She said the state's compelling interest now applied to those up to 13 years old and could be applied to those up to 16 years old, at the judge's discretion. Number 240 REP. VEZEY asked whether a juror might question the value of testimony from an invisible witness, and whether that might make it harder to win convictions. MS. BUKOVICH said courts have ruled that such testimony is only allowed under special findings, and that there would be few cases in which it would be allowed; when 14 or 15 year olds would deserve protection from the trauma of testifying. Number 250 REP. BUNDE said testimony from a hidden witness might tend to prompt a juror's suspicion that the charges forcing such sequestration might be very serious. He asked how many times there had been a need for testimony from a concealed witness in the past year. MS. BUKOVICH said she did not know, but the court system might. REP. BUNDE asked what prompted the bill. MS. BUKOVICH said the Maniilaq Association had asked for such a bill in response to some cases of 14 and 15 year-olds who experienced stress in testifying. Number 282 REP. BUNDE foresaw the potential for extra stress for young people from small towns going to big cities to testify. REP. BRICE agreed with Rep. Vezey's concerns about the validity of a hidden witness' testimony. He asked why the bill limited such protection at 16 years. MS. BUKOVICH said keeping the limit to those below 16, the age at which youths can drive automobiles and otherwise behave in adult-like activities, avoids the question of whether they are children or adults. Number 311 JERRY LUCKHAUPT, LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL WITH THE LEGAL AFFAIRS DIVISION, which drafted HB 78, said the U.S. Supreme Court has said the states have a legitimate interest in protecting children who may have to testify in court, and that the law does not guarantee face-to-face confrontation in all cases if it would result in stress for a child. The availability of cross-examination and observation by the jury are enough to protect the accused's confrontation rights. He said the age of 16 is the upper limit for many rights, such as unrestricted driver's licenses. CHAIR TOOHEY said she supported HB 78, and that the judge has discretion to order a witness to testify in seclusion as a kindness to the child. Number 368 MR. LUCKHAUPT said judges instruct juries not to draw any conclusions as to the value of testimony delivered from a witness thus sequestered. He said such protections would be infrequently used, but would be helpful. He offered that in his experience as a prosecutor he would dismiss a case rather than require a child to suffer significant emotional harm by testifying before a defendant if he could not find any other evidence to effect a conviction. Number 426 CHAIR TOOHEY closed public testimony on HB 78 and asked the will of the committee. REP. KOTT moved passage with individual recommendations. CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objection, declared HB 78 PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. There being no additional business before the committee, Chair Toohey ADJOURNED the meeting at 5:04 p.m.