Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/29/1998 05:08 PM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES
April 29, 1998
5:08 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman
Representative Ivan Ivan
Representative Mark Hodgins
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Scott Ogan
Representative Gene Kubina
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HOUSE BILL NO. 489
"An Act relating to the transponders on commercial fishing vessels;
and providing for an effective date."
- REMOVED FROM AGENDA
HOUSE BILL NO. 483
"An Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring
certain nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a
sport fishing guide; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 483
SHORT TITLE: SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES
SPONSOR(S): RULES
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
4/07/98 2906 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
4/07/98 2906 (H) FISHERIES, RESOURCES
4/15/98 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
4/15/98 (H) MINUTE(FSH)
4/29/98 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
JIM HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant
to Representative Peter Kott
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 204
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-6848
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 483( ).
AMY DAUGHERTY, Legislative Administrative Assistant
to Representative Alan Austerman
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 434
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-4230
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 483( ).
VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member
Board of Fisheries
878 Lynwood Way
North Pole, Alaska 99705
Telephone: (907) 456-3885
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 483( ).
JOEL HARD, Representative
Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency
P.O. Box 388
Palmer, Alaska 99645-0388
Telephone: (907) 746-9139
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 483( ).
ALAN LEMASTER
P.O. Box 222
Gakona, Alaska 99586
Telephone: (907) 822-3664
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 483( ).
JAY BELLINGER, Refuge Manager
Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge
468 Lilly Dr.
Kodiak, Alaska 99615
Telephone: NOT PROVIDED
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 483( ).
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-16, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on
Fisheries meeting to order at 5:08 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Austerman, Ivan and Hodgins.
HB 483 - SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES
Number 0044
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN announced that the committee would hear HB 483,
"An Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring
certain nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a
sport fishing guide; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0123
JIM HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant to Representative Peter Kott,
stated that he hoped to have a more completed committee substitute
to the bill, but he was not able to do so. He stated that the
overall purpose of the bill is to improve the stewardship of the
fisheries. Section 1 deals with non-resident alien sport
fishermen, requiring them to be with a registered sport fish
guides. He stated that this will hopefully curtail mistakes and
abuses by aliens who are not familiar with the fish and game
regulations.
MR. HORNADAY stated that Section 2, requires processors of sport
fish to register with the Department of Fish and Game as well as
maintain records of the sport fish process. He stated that he is
referring to CSHB 483( ), Version Q, and stated that a new Section
1 has been added and it contains much of the language embodied in
HB 19. He referred to Section 1, page 1, and stated that it would
be a Class A misdemeanor offense for a non-resident alien sport
fisherman to take salmon without a guide. The maximum penalty is
a $5,000 fine or a year in jail or both.
Number 0352
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if it was correct that "the original bill
did not have a registered guide with it."
MR. HORNADAY stated that was his understanding.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if that was the basic change for that
section.
AMY DAUGHERTY, Legislative Administrative Assistant to
Representative Alan Austerman, stated that the only change in that
is section is taking out the exemption for Mexicans.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that there is reference to license under
AS 16.40.270 and AS 16.40.280 which was not in the original bill.
Number 0435
MR. HORNADAY asked why was Mexico taken out.
Number 0445
MS. DAUGHERTY stated that the Attorney General's office informed
them that the NAFTA provisions did not apply to this recreational
sport fishery, only to the commercial guiding business. She stated
that the sponsor could have pulled out the reference to Canada but
there was a concern expressed that it would be problematic since a
lot of Canadians come to Alaska to sport fish on week-ends.
Number 0549
REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS stated that he needed to declare a
conflict of interest. His family members are sport guides and big
game hunter/outfitters. He stated that some portions of this bill
would benefit his family and himself.
Number 0614
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that it is noted but he will still be
required to vote.
Number 0621
REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN stated that he also has a conflict of
interest, as he is a shareholder in a corporation that owns a
sport fishing lodge.
Number 0626
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that it is so noted and that he would be
required to vote as well.
Number 0636
MR. HORNADAY stated that there is a change in the definition of
processing on page 2, line 30, the word "butchering" has been taken
out. He explained that AS 16.40.270 and AS 16.40.280 puts some
requirements in the bill. He stated that on page 5, AS 16.40.290,
lists the graded penalties, from a Class A misdemeanor to a
violation. He stated that in AS 16.40.295 are definitions that
have been worked out over the years.
Number 0820
MR. HORNADAY stated that Representative Kott is concerned with
Section 1 and obtaining workable wording that would permit non-
resident alien sport fishermen's friends or acquaintances, who come
over to fish for a short period of time, to not have to hire a
guide. He explained that Representative Kott is concerned with
developing a compelling state interest as was developed for the
hunting guide requirement, under safety and resource protection
reasons. Mr. Hornaday stated that Section 1 has arisen as a result
of testimony that the committee has heard over a number of years.
He stated that the "Wasilla Board of Fish" was concerned with this
issue as well as the Kodiak refuge. He indicated that the legal
department has notified the committee that there could be a
possible constitutional problem with Section 1. He stated that the
processing requirements in Section 2 are supported by the
"department".
Number 1034
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he understood the desire on page 3,
Article 6 to define a sport fish operator as it was defined in HB
19, which did pass the House. He stated that he assumed that they
are looking to put Article 6 in the bill, to give definition to the
guides that are being referred to in Section 1.
Number 1134
MS. DAUGHERTY stated that was correct. She pointed out that
testimony, particularly from the Division of Sport Fish at the last
hearing of this bill, indicated that it was almost rhetorical to
have the non-resident alien sport fishermen guide requirement in
the bill. She said "If anyone, at any time, just needed to send in
the registration to the department to be a guide." She explained
that about two years ago, there were some requirements developed
through the guide charter task force and the director of the
Division of Sport Fish indicated that it would be better to use
these requirements that were already hammered out. She stated the
director was also supportive of incorporating the definitions in
the bill.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Umphenour, if he had a chance to go
through the bill.
Number 1304
VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member, Board of Fisheries, testified via
teleconference from Phoenix that he has and what Amy stated was
correct, the board and the guide charter task force has been
working on this for three years and those definitions are a result.
He stated that CSHB 483( ) is a good product.
Number 1421
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Hard if he had a chance to look at the
bill and what he thought of it.
JOEL HARD, Representative, Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency
testified via teleconference from Palmer, that "[The agency]
supports HB 19 and has worked with the sport fish division to come
up with a fiscal note associated with HB 19 to try and improve the
sport fish guiding requirement language and this is halfway there."
He stated that the committee has his comments on HB 483 in letter
form. He pointed out that he would have a discussion with the
commission in regards to the added language of HB 19 because it is
such an important issue, this bill needs to have more evaluation.
Number 1530
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he would do that and send the comments
to him and if they do move the bill out tonight he will forward
those comments to the House Resources Standing Committee, which is
were the bill will be heard next.
MR. HARD stated that he would do that.
Number 1537
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Lemaster if he had a chance to read to
the bill.
Number 1552
ALAN LEMASTER, testified via teleconference from Gakona that he is
reading it as the committee proceeds, as he just received it this
afternoon.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that if he had any comments he could
forward them to the committee.
Number 1606
JAY BELLINGER, Refuge Manager, Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge,
testified via teleconference from Kodiak that he has been Refuge
Manager for 15 years. He stated that in Kodiak there are groups of
non-resident alien sport fishermen mainly from European countries,
as they have interviewed people from Austria, Germany, France and
Italy. He said, "The ones that know the regulations are all just
friends, however they have written tickets to two operators in the
past six years for illegal commercial operation on the refuge." He
explained that they are supposed to have a refuge special use
permit, if they are guiding on the refuge. The two individuals
admitted they were guiding on the river and tickets were written.
He stated that they are observing the non-resident alien sport
fishery to be primarily interested in, "a meat fishery", which is
fishing to build up the maximum pounds of salmon to export to their
country. He stated that they primarily have observed this type of
fishing with the non-resident alien fishermen and have only
observed this with one non-resident sport fisherman and never with
resident sport fishermen. He stated that the real guides, the
Alaskan sport fish guides, normally restrict the number of fish
that the clients can take. He stated that there are two groups of
the nonresident alien's that are guiding groups of their countrymen
on the refuge. He said "The ones that don't know the scoop and
admit that they are guiding, we've been ticketing. The ones that
know what's going on -- the only one that can speak English of the
group is probably the guide so you can't build a case." He stated
that more fish are being taken in the fields by these groups.
Number 1954
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he had read the bill.
MR. BELLINGER replied that he has.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked for his impression of the bill.
Number 2009
MR. BELLINGER stated that for years he has hoped that the state
would control sport fish guiding and there is a good situation with
big game guides. He stated that this bill would be quite an
improvement.
Number 2034
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if it was correct that he controls the
sport fish guides that he knows of on the refuge.
MR. BELLINGER stated that the Alaska residents that are sport fish
guiding have to have a refuge special use permit and there are only
so many allowed in certain areas so there is not a conflict between
the commercial operators and the guided and unguided fishermen. He
stated that they also try to make sure that there isn't a conflict
between the fishermen and the bears. He stated that the situation
with the guided alien groups is that they can not prove that they
are guides which is causing the problems.
Number 2112
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the non-guided residents of the U.S.
have to have a special use permit.
Number 2121
MR. BELLINGER replied that they do not. It is just the guides. He
stated that they have a law enforcement camp on the Ayakulik River
which is one of the two main king salmon fishing rivers on the
Kodiak for about the last seven years. He stated that they staff
that camp straight through the peak time of king salmon fishing.
He stated that therefore, they are talking to every group that goes
out there on that river for a three to four week period. He stated
that they have good documentation of what is going on.
Number 2210
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he sees the "meat-type fishing" on the
Ayakulik River.
MR. BELLINGER replied that he has watched it on the Ayakulik River
and he as heard it happens on the Karluk River.
Number 2255
MR. UMPHENOUR stated that this is not only a problem in Kodiak, it
is a problem in many other places. At every Board of Fisheries
meeting this problem is brought up. He stated that they have had
a large number of complaints. He stated that there are many cases
where the non-resident alien fishermen can not speak English, or
read the regulations. He stated that he is a commercial processor
of commercial and sport caught fish. He informed the committee
that he heard a story of a French airline pilot who had in excess
of 3,100 pounds of smoked salmon that was processed in Anchorage
and sent home. He stated that Bud Hodson, a sport fish lodge owner
in Bristol Bay, told him that one French owned operation was
sending two Beaver loads of king salmon a day from the Nushagak to
Anchorage to be smoked. He stated that he has heard of these types
of offenses in the entire state. He stated that there is also a
"mother ship" problem in Southeast Alaska, where there are alien
cruise ships with small boats that fish offshore, taking king
salmon. He asserted that the non-resident alien sport fishermen
issue is a big problem and this bill is a step in the right
direction.
Number 2516
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS made a motion to adopt CSHB 483( ), Version
Q, 4/29/98.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there was an objection. Hearing none,
CSHB 483( ), Version Q, 4/29/98 was adopted.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that Representative Kott had several
questions regarding the bill. He asked Mr. Hornaday if he wanted
to address them in this committee or in the Resources Committee.
Number 2603
MR. HORNADAY replied that assuming that they could work on it in
the Resources Committee, this committee might as well move it out.
He stated that he would defer to the chair and the members.
Number 2632
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he has some problems with the
bill. He stated that according to the bill anybody who freezes
fish must then have a processor's licence.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that is not intent. He stated that they
have had some discussions and the word "butchering" was taken out
of it. He stated that his staff has talked to several people in
regard to this issue.
Number 2721
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he did not want someone to have
to make the choice of putting fish in the freezer and preserving it
or letting it rot because they do not have a processing license.
Number 2753
MS. DAUGHERTY stated that she has spoke with the Department of
Economic Conservation and "essentially sport fish does not have to
have a processors license unless it is canned or smoked at which
point you do have to get a processors license." According to the
Department of Economic Conservation freezing is not included with
in the definition of processing. She stated that the department
assured her that no processing license is required unless the lodge
partakes in canning or smoking of the sport fish product. She
stated that the bill is just setting out who would have to maintain
records on the sport fish that is processed. She stated that it is
written so that people that just have charter guide businesses
would not have maintain those records as long as they did not
freeze or ship the fish in boxes. She stated that as soon as they
did prepare a fish for shipment including vacuum packaging or
wrapping, they would have to maintain records. She stated that
they were trying to avoid guides who simply would clean, gut and
fillet the fish for their clients. She stated that the section
originated from the Board of Fisheries' resolution that expresses
a frustration with the numerous fish being shipped out of the state
every summer from coastal towns without documentation. She stated
that this would help enforcement and the Department of Public
Safety has come out in strong support of this section.
Number 3027
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he could not support this bill
and with only three members here it will not move out of committee.
He stated that he has some problems with the bill and he does not
want to be put in a position to vote on the bill, but if he has to
he will vote against it.
Number 3103
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that the only conflict that he wants to
state is that "because of the context of some this language that
has been put in here from HB 19, which is sitting in Senate
Resources. I don't want it to be perceived that I am (INDISC.) any
methodology at all of trying to roll any of my bills out of Senate
Resources. This draft is not my draft it is coming from the
sponsor."
Number 3140
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked how similar was HB 19 to this bill.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that "all the language from page 3, line
6 back is HB 19." It actually defines what a sport fish guide is.
He stated that was not in the original bill. He stated that he
could understand why the sponsor wants it in the bill, because it
does define what this bill is speaking to.
Number 3222
REPRESENTATIVE IVAN asked if HB 19 is in the other body and this
bill contains the same language.
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that after page 3, it is language that
was passed out of the House in HB 19 but is sitting in the Senate
Resources Standing Committee. He stated that there are not enough
votes to move it out tonight, and there probably will not be time
to move it out of the committee this session.
ADJOURNMENT
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN adjourned the House Special Committee on
Fisheries meeting at 5:43 p.m.
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