Legislature(2001 - 2002)
02/06/2001 01:39 PM House FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE
February 6, 2001
1:39 PM
TAPE HFC 01 - 21, Side 1
TAPE HFC 01 - 21, Side 2
TAPE HFC 01 - 22, Side 1
CALL TO ORDER
Co-Chair Williams called the House Finance Committee meeting
to order at 1:39 PM.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Eldon Mulder, Co-Chair
Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chair
Representative Con Bunde, Vice-Chair
Representative John Davies
Representative Carl Moses
Representative Richard Foster
Representative John Harris
Representative Bill Hudson
Representative Ken Lancaster
Representative Jim Whitaker
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Eric Croft
ALSO PRESENT
Representative Norman Rokeberg; Senator Robin Taylor; Eddy
Jeans, Manager, School Finance, Department of Education and
Early Development; Tom Bringham, Director, Division of
Statewide Planning, Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities; Sarah Keenay, Southeast Alaska Conservation
Council, Juneau; Frank Dillon, Executive Vice President,
Alaska Trucking Association, Anchorage.
PRESENT VIA TELECONFERENCE
Debbie Ossiander, Anchorage School District, Anchorage.
SUMMARY
HB 8 An Act establishing the Legislative Road
Development Task Force; and providing for an
effective date.
CS HB 8 (FIN) was reported out of Committee with a
"do pass" recommendation and with a fiscal note by
the Legislative Affairs Agency.
HB 90 An Act relating to reimbursement of municipal
bonds for school construction; and providing for
an effective date.
HB 90 was HEARD and HELD in Committee for further
consideration.
HOUSE BILL 90
An Act relating to reimbursement of municipal bonds for
school construction; and providing for an effective
date.
Co-Chair Mulder explained that HB 90 would correct a
technical error to HB 281, Chapter 130, SLA 2000, the school
capital funding and bond debt reimbursement bill. The bill
intended to provide bond debt reimbursement for several bond
obligations previously approved by voters. Several
districts had voters approved bonds prior to securing
approval from the Commissioner of the Department of
Education and Early Development. The action would preclude
them from securing intended reimbursement under the
provisions of last year's bill.
He added that HB 90 would correct that technical error and
that it would not expand any authorizations previously
provided. It would simply allow those intended to receive
bond debt reimbursement to do so. He advised that the
legislation would affect the Municipality of Anchorage and
the Northwest Arctic Borough.
Co-Chair Mulder noted that there was another amendment to
the proposed legislation. He requested that the bill be
held in Committee for further work.
Representative Harris referenced Page 4, Line 19, pointing
out a typographical error; the "P" should be changed to "O".
Co-Chair Mulder agreed, noting that the technical change and
would be made by the legal drafters.
EDDY JEANS, MANAGER, SCHOOL FINANCE, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
AND EARLY DEVELOPMENT, commented in response to queries made
by Representative Whitaker and Representative J. Davies,
indicating that the bill would not change the reallocation
structure. He added that he was not aware of any school
districts opposed to the idea.
Co-Chair Williams directed that HB 90 would be HELD in
Committee for further consideration.
HOUSE BILL NO. 8
An Act establishing the Legislative Road Development
Task Force; and providing for an effective date.
REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG explained that HB 8 would
establish a Legislative Pioneer Road Development Task Force
whose duties would include:
· Research existing plans for road development in
the State;
· Identify roads that are important to Alaska's
future economic development;
· Study feasibility of developing or upgrading roads
in order to promote future economic development;
· Determine availability and source of funds to
develop or upgrade those roads;
· Review alternative funding sources for ongoing
maintenance; and
· Establish a priority ranking for projects to
develop or upgrade the roads identified by the
Task Force.
Representative Rokeberg noted that the Task Force would
include various memberships as described in the legislation.
He commented that without having a better transportation
infrastructure, many areas in Alaska cannot be developed to
their fullest potential. The legislation proposes to
establish roads for consideration. Many of these roads have
been discussed by previous legislatures and the discussions
have impressed a need for "forward thinking". He suggested
that this legislation would provide that.
Representative Rokeberg affirmed that Alaska must get roads
"up and going" in order to benefit the entire State. Both
natural resource development and tourism will benefit from
such a project. He recommended that the Task Force should
complete their work and make recommendations by January
2002.
Vice-Chair Bunde MOVED to adopt the committee substitute
work draft #22-LS0102\J, Utermohle, 2/5/01. There being NO
OBJECTION, the committee substitute was adopted.
Representative Davies asked for an itemized list of the
changes made to the work draft.
Vice-Chair Bunde listed the changes:
· Page 2, Line 4, adding one member who resides in a
rural area;
· Page 3, Line 18, adding the Shelter Cove Road; and
· Page 3, Line 28, the repealed date language.
Representative Rokeberg stated that he did not object to the
addition of Cove Road, however, he believed that moving the
th
date back to March 15 could be problematic. He recommended
th
compromising by adding a February 15 date. Additionally,
Representative Rokeberg indicated that he would prefer the
Task Force representation more from rural Alaska. He
believed that the committee substitute had replaced the
rural member. He counseled the Committee how dangerous that
could be.
Co-Chair Williams acknowledged that he was not settled on
the date, and that he foresaw more and more people wanting
to participate on the Task Force.
Representative Davies voiced his concern with the make-up of
the Task Force membership. He believed that the membership
was heavily weighted toward development interests.
Representative Rokeberg mentioned the Resource Development
Council (RDC) membership.
Representative Hudson commended the attempt of the
legislation to develop a broad view on road systems
throughout the State. He inquired if there had been similar
action taken on the Railroad extension question.
Representative Rokeberg did not know the answer to that.
Representative Lancaster questioned why Railroads had not
been included in the legislation. He pointed out his
amendment.
Representative Rokeberg understood the intent of the
amendment, however, acknowledged that many groups wanted
representation. He agreed that could be a good addition,
however, it might dilute the intention of the legislation.
He believed that the focus of the Task Force should make
order and prioritize road concerns.
SENATOR ROBIN TAYLOR voiced support for the legislation. He
stated that no roads had been built in his Senate district
during the referenced time span. There were over 3,000
miles of road built by the United States Forest Service on
the Prince of Wales Island during that same period of time.
Senator Taylor emphasized that there should be a meaningful
transportation system throughout the State.
He commented on the history of the Whittier Road and Tunnel
and the 15 years that it took to build that road. He
reminded members that Senator Ted Stevens has appropriated
millions of dollars to Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities and to date, not one inch of road has been built
on the Bradfield Road proposal.
Senator Taylor applauded the House Finance Committee for
considering this issue, while urging consideration of a
better road system throughout the State of Alaska.
Co-Chair Mulder inquired about the logging roads being built
in Senator Taylor's district.
Senator Taylor explained that those roads were being built
in Senator Austerman's district and that they were being
done by the Army Corps of Engineers. He reminded Committee
members that a road runs twenty-four hours a day, while
ferries run a few times a week.
Representative Whitaker asked how Senator Taylor would
characterize the problem.
Senator Taylor responded that there are good employees that
work at Department of Transportation & Public Facilities;
however, the Governor and his staff condition them. The
Administration does not want any new roads built, but would
rather build a new high-speed ferry for $60 million dollars.
Representative Whitaker inquired if Senator Taylor was
calling it "gubernatorial resistance". Senator Taylor
interjected that any road building discussion is usually
"killed" by the Governor, which is reflected in the
Statewide Transportation Improvement Program (STIP) agenda
each year.
Representative Davies inquired if 100% of the people in
Southeast Alaska want a road built. Senator Taylor
explained that it would never be 100%. He stressed that the
people of the communities want to be heard and that access
should happen. He reiterated that there could never be 100%
agreement.
Representative Harris agreed in part with Senator Taylor
that the Task Force should not be expanded to large. He
agreed that the project needs to move forward in order to
help promote economic development within the State.
Representative Harris suggested that the bill be streamlined
so that the project could move forward, stressing that the
State will need to be committed to add funding to make this
happen.
Vice-Chair Bunde asked if the way the roads were listed
indicated their priority. Representative Rokeberg
interjected that the Task Force would be responsible for
creating the priorities.
Vice-Chair Bunde commented that the Task Force costs would
not be expensive, however, the cost of building the roads
would be. He agreed that the voice of the citizens
throughout the State, should be heard. He recommended
someone who is not interested in road concerns be added to
the Task Force membership.
Representative Rokeberg disagreed with Vice-Chair Bunde. He
pointed out that the Task Force would not supercede any
environmental or other concerns. He believed that to invite
someone from the community that wants to "stop" road
building could be problematic.
Vice-Chair Bunde addressed the Task Force and the fiscal
responsibilities associated with their actions.
Representative Hudson recommended that a Task Force of that
size should provide an updated status of roads throughout
the State. He agreed that type of information was important
for good public policy, while referencing the road to Atlin
and the State's inability to get Canada's approval.
Representative Hudson agreed that the Task Force would be a
"good" thing to use to determine the status of the road
system throughout the State.
Representative Davies asked what kind of economic factors
would be considered by the Task Force and if those concerns
would be restricted to roads only.
Representative Rokeberg advised that the manner in which the
bill was drafted, the membership would be determined through
the Committee process. He noted the amendment, which spoke
to those concerns. He proposed that the "needs" of each
community should determine how the Task Force would rate
each area.
Co-Chair Williams referenced the committee substitute and
commented that RDC does have a broad spectrum of membership
throughout the private sector. He noted that the committee
substitute asked that the Task Force report back at the
beginning of the year, rather than the original requested
th
date of March 15.
Co-Chair Mulder agreed that changing the date was a good
move. If the Task Force proves to be effective, then the
Legislature could take action to extend its life.
TAPE HFC 01 - 21, Side B
Representative Davies commented that construction of the
roads would be the cheap part, as construction of the roads
would be done mostly with federal funding. He stressed that
upkeep would be the expensive aspect and asked if the State
could afford those costs. He reminded members how much the
Legislature has been cutting the maintenance funding.
Co-Chair Mulder reiterated that roads could bring economic
development to the State.
Co-Chair Williams interjected that the Committee could have
this debate later during the meeting.
Representative Rokeberg stressed that it is important to
recognize that economic development does have costs and that
Alaska has had minimal economic development for many years.
He believed that the comments of Senator Taylor were to the
point of concern.
Representative Davies criticized, noting that the entire
State infrastructure rests on oil. Oil does not provide
enough solid funding to increase the infrastructure as
proposed. Oil cannot support the development, unless it is
complimented with a statewide tax.
Co-Chair Williams reiterated that these concerns would be
debated before the bill moves from Committee.
TOM BRINGHAM, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF STATEWIDE PLANNING,
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION & PUBLIC FACILITIES, indicated
some of the concerns of the Department:
· The Department questions what is the best place to
spend the money that is available;
· The Department questions where would the money
come from to maintain the proposed roads. He
spoke to the reality of the maintenance budget,
and how new roads would be given negative points;
· He noted that the Regional Transportation Plan
extensively involves each of those communities.
He stressed that the proposal does not take into
consideration public involvement; and
· That with any single purpose road, some sort of
transportation must be attached with it.
Mr. Bringham corrected comments made by Senator Taylor and
his reference to the fact that no roads had been built by
the Department in Southeast Alaska. The Southeast Plan
includes a road from Wrangell to Fool's Inlet. Mr. Bringham
expounded that the Canadians did not support the concept of
the Bradfield Road, thus, the Department did not pursue it.
The federal government does not want the State to build a
road that stops at the border.
Co-Chair Williams suggested that the Task Force would be
commissioned initially to provide "fact finding". Then the
Legislature could determine if funds were available. He
addressed the single purpose issue, noting that concern
would be the Task Force work agenda.
Representative Hudson stated that the proposed legislation
could allow the Legislature a fresh opportunity to evaluate
potential transportation concerns throughout the State.
Representative Foster asked if the objection rests in the
fact that the bill would circumvent public involvement. He
thought that other task forces worked closely with the
public. He did not understand the objection to the
proposal.
In response to comments by Representative Foster,
Representative J. Davies explained that there is not enough
State money to implement the concepts of the proposed
legislation. He stated that there would not be much public
input with passage of the legislation.
Representative Davies questioned the idea of "pioneer roads"
and how much development would be included in that concept.
He assumed that type of road would be primitive.
Mr. Brigham explained that a pioneer road would be federally
fundable and would be built at a 20 M.P.H. standard. He
stated that it would be similar to a logging road and would
be used to haul freight. He added that it would be
difficult to use it as a public passage road. Mr. Bringham
stressed that the road to Cascade Point would not be a
perspective pioneer road.
SARAH KEENAY, SOUTHEAST ALASKA CONSERVATION COUNCIL (SEACC),
JUNEAU, voiced support of the concerns made by local
residents and Taku River watershed users, who would be
impacted by construction of a road from Juneau to Atlin,
British Columbia. She noted that there had been tremendous
controversy surrounding the proposed road in the watershed
area. Serious concerns have been raised regarding the
impact on the Taku River's annual $10 million dollar
commercial fishery.
Representative Foster asked if SEACC would support the bill
if that concern were not included. Ms. Keenay replied that
she would need to check that out with the Director of SEACC.
FRANK DILLON, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, ALASKA TRUCKING
ASSOCIATION, ANCHORAGE, voiced support for the bill. He
believed that it would not compete with the Department of
Transportation & Public Facilities to prioritize roads, but
rather would provide an opportunity to get people together
to determine the transportation and infrastructure needs
throughout the State.
Some of the development throughout Alaska would be important
to the entire State. He believed that the group should
include different members from various communities and that
the process should not exclude anyone from the anti-road
viewpoint.
Mr. Dillon believed that the Task Force could create more
probability that a formal structure would be created.
Vice-Chair Bunde asked about the comments regarding the road
to Prudhoe Bay.
Mr. Dillon did not foresee a road developed in that area. A
road anywhere takes seven years before "the dirt is actually
turned". He hoped that U.S. Congressman Don Young would be
taking that into consideration with the next serious highway
bill.
In response to concerns voiced by Vice-Chair Bunde, Mr.
Dillon stated that without forming a Task Force to raise the
level of attention, there would be no movement forward. He
did not know how maintenance would be addressed.
Representative Davies believed that the State would be
better off focusing maintenance dollars on existing
structures. He asked if the Alaska Trucker's Association
would be willing to help provide some kind of support for
the road systems throughout the State.
Mr. Dillon acknowledged that the Alaska Truckers Association
does support a fuel tax to help maintain roads. He noted
that he has requested that taxes be increased on the
industry several times. With regards to building the roads,
one concept is if no one were to benefit, it would not pay
to build that specific infrastructure. The State cannot
build roads for work development only; there must be a goal
of economic enhancement produced throughout the State.
Vice-Chair Bunde MOVED to adopt Amendment #1, #22-
LS0102\F.2, Utermohle, 2/6/01. He requested that questions
be referred to the bill's sponsor.
Representative Rokeberg stated that the amendment would
strengthen the direction for the Task Force and what they
would need to accomplish. The issue would be forced to
either make or not make the federal government recognize the
State's rights regarding rights-of-way.
Representative Davies spoke in support of the amendment
because of the reference to R.S. 2477. In response to
concerns voiced by Representative J. Davies, Representative
Rokeberg point out that there are no current cases enforcing
the State's rights at this time.
There being NO OBJECTION, Amendment #1 was adopted.
Representative Lancaster WITHDREW Amendment 2.
Representative Davies MOVED to ADOPT Amendment #3, 22-
LS010\F.3, Utermohle, 2/6/01. Co-Chair Williams OBJECTED.
Representative Davies spoke in support of the amendment. He
maintained that the amendment would delete the need for a
Task Force and would be more directed on cost effectiveness.
He pointed out that Subsection B would provide that any
municipality could nominate roads in the same manner.
Representative Hudson pointed out that there was no fiscal
note accompanying the amendment. He questioned if the
Department supported it. Representative J. Davies was not
aware if the Department had seen the amendment.
TAPE HFC 01 - 22, Side A
Representative Davies stated that he did not think that
there would be a great expense to the Department, pointing
out that much of the infrastructure currently is in place.
Representative Rokeberg objected to the amendment. He felt
that the heart of the amendment would cut out the essential
parts of the bill. He believed that the present process
does not work with the Statewide Transportation Improvement
Program (STIP). He observed that the legislation could
state that the goal of the Department of Transportation and
Public Facilities was to build a certain number of roads;
however, he believed that it would be better to make it more
specific.
Representative Davies maintained that the amendment would
determine that the Legislature be the constituency for the
rural areas. He stressed that the evaluation process would
be up-front and that there are experts in the Department to
do that work. He reiterated that the Department is
prepared to provide the economic evaluation and stated that
the amendment could address policy direction.
Co-Chair Williams understood the problem to be that the
Department does not want to do the work at this time.
Representative J. Davies argued that was not what he
understood.
Representative Hudson suggested that what is being proposed
is a two-part process. The proposed legislation would
involve expanding the awareness of all the potential roads
and presenting a list of the roads to the Legislature. The
second part of the consideration would be the Legislature
reconciling the determined facts and defining public policy.
Representative Davies believed that the first step could be
skipped and that the Legislature should provide the policy
direction at this time.
Representative Whitaker pointed out that the information for
the policy position might be different from the existing
policy. He stressed that the Task Force would need to find
reasons why it will work.
A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION to adopt Amendment
#3.
IN FAVOR: Davies, Moses
OPPOSED: Bunde, Foster, Harris, Hudson, Lancaster,
Whitaker, Mulder, Williams
Representative Croft was not present for the vote.
The MOTION FAILED (2-8).
Co-Chair Mulder MOVED to report CS HB 8 (FIN) out of
Committee with individual recommendations and with the
accompanying fiscal note.
Co-Chair Mulder WITHDREW the MOTION so that the Committee
could review the fiscal note.
Co-Chair Mulder restated the MOTION to MOVE the bill from
Committee.
Representative Moses OBJECTED for a comment. He applauded
the sponsor for coming up with the legislation. He pointed
out that the first road on the list, noting that road was in
much better shape fifty years ago than it is now. He
stressed that the State cannot and does not maintain the
current road systems. Representative Moses emphasized the
need for a long-range fiscal plan.
Representative Davies associated with the comments voiced by
Representative Moses. He believed that the intent of the
bill would raise Alaskan's expectations without satisfying
them. He hoped that the sponsor's intent would provide for
a long-range fiscal plan.
Vice-Chair Bunde agreed with the two previous speakers and
voiced his concern with the backlog of deferred maintenance
problems throughout the State of Alaska. He advised that
any pioneer roads should be focused on economic development.
Representative Moses WITHDREW his OBJECTION. There being NO
further OBJECTION, CS HB 8 (FIN) was reported out of
Committee.
CS HB 8 (FIN) was reported out of Committee with a "do pass"
recommendation and with a fiscal note by Legislative Affairs
Agency dated 1/29/01.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 3:30 P.M.
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