Legislature(2017 - 2018)HOUSE FINANCE 519

06/12/2017 01:30 PM FINANCE

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Audio Topic
01:33:58 PM Start
01:35:24 PM Presentation: Concepts and Revenue Impacts of Employment and Self-employment Tax
01:35:49 PM SB12
02:30:56 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Recessed to a Call of the Chair --
+ Presentation: On the concepts contained in SB 12 TELECONFERENCED
as listed in the Governor's "Fiscal Plan
Compromise Package"
                  HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                                                                       
                   FIRST SPECIAL SESSION                                                                                        
                       June 12, 2017                                                                                            
                         1:33 p.m.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:33:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton  called the House Finance  Committee meeting                                                                    
to order at 1:33 p.m.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Neal Foster, Co-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Paul Seaton, Co-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Les Gara, Vice-Chair                                                                                             
Representative Jason Grenn                                                                                                      
Representative David Guttenberg                                                                                                 
Representative Scott Kawasaki                                                                                                   
Representative Dan Ortiz                                                                                                        
Representative Lance Pruitt                                                                                                     
Representative Steve Thompson                                                                                                   
Representative Cathy Tilton                                                                                                     
Representative Tammie Wilson                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
None                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
ALSO PRESENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Arnold Liebelt,  Staff, Representative Paul  Seaton; Taneeka                                                                    
Hansen,  Staff,  Representative   Paul  Seaton;  Ken  Alper,                                                                    
Director,  Tax  Division,  Department  of  Revenue;  Randall                                                                    
Hoffbeck,     Commissioner,    Department     of    Revenue;                                                                    
Representative Dan  Saddler; Representative  Andy Josephson;                                                                    
Representative  Matt Claman;  Representative Louise  Stutes;                                                                    
Representative Justin Parish; Representative Geran Tarr.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
PRESENTATION:  CONCEPTS and  REVENUE  IMPACTS OF  EMPLOYMENT                                                                    
and SELF-EMPLOYMENT TAX                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
[NOTE: The following  presentation contains content relating                                                                    
to SB 12. The bill was not in the committee's possession.]                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton  indicated that the  agenda would  cover the                                                                    
concepts in the governor's fiscal  package. He had asked his                                                                    
staff  to  put together  a  presentation  on employment  and                                                                    
self-employment tax and how that could generate revenue.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
^PRESENTATION:  CONCEPTS and  REVENUE IMPACTS  OF EMPLOYMENT                                                                  
and SELF-EMPLOYMENT TAX                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:35:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Seaton  recognized  Representatives  Dan  Saddler,                                                                    
Matt Claman, and Andy Josephson.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATE BILL NO. 12                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     "An  Act  imposing  a limited  educational  facilities,                                                                    
     maintenance, and construction tax  on net earnings from                                                                    
     self-employment    and   wages;    relating   to    the                                                                    
     administration  and  enforcement   of  the  educational                                                                    
     facilities,  maintenance,  and  construction  tax;  and                                                                    
     providing for an effective date."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:35:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ARNOLD   LIEBELT,   STAFF,   REPRESENTATIVE   PAUL   SEATON,                                                                    
explained he had  been asked to put  together a presentation                                                                    
of the  concepts embedded in SB  12, which had been  part of                                                                    
the  governor's   request.  In  the  current   meeting,  the                                                                    
intention  was to  look  at  the fiscal  impacts  of SB  12,                                                                    
thought  to   create  $100  million  in   additional  annual                                                                    
revenue.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair  Gara  clarified  the legislation  had  been  put                                                                    
forward by Senator Click Bishop.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt replied in the affirmative.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:37:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Liebelt  provided   a  PowerPoint  presentation  titled                                                                    
"Concepts  and  Revenue  Impacts   of  Employment  and  Self                                                                    
Employment Tax" dated June 12, 2017 (copy on file).                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Liebelt began  by reviewing  slide  3 titled  "SB 12  -                                                                    
Employment Tax for Educational Facilities":                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     "An  Act  imposing  a limited  educational  facilities,                                                                    
     maintenance, and construction tax  on net earnings from                                                                    
     self-employment    and   wages;    relating   to    the                                                                    
     administration  and  enforcement   of  the  educational                                                                    
     facilities,  maintenance,  and  construction  tax;  and                                                                    
     providing for an effective date."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     · The bill as written does the following:                                                                                  
     ·  Imposes a tax on  wages and net earnings  from self-                                                                    
        employment (payroll tax)                                                                                                
     ·  Estimated to generate $60 million  annually, with $5                                                                    
        million from non-residents                                                                                              
     ·  Intent is to designate the funds  to the Educational                                                                    
        Facilities, Maintenance and Construction Fund (AS                                                                       
        37.05.560)                                                                                                              
     ·  Creates tax  brackets  with  corresponding flat  tax                                                                    
        (not percentages)                                                                                                       
     ·  Applies to residents  and non-residents  with income                                                                    
        from a source in the state                                                                                              
     ·  Does not apply to capital  gains, investment income,                                                                    
        retirement or other unearned income                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt clarified  he was just looking  at the framework                                                                    
of the bill as it was currently written.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-chair Seaton  recognized Representative Louise  Stutes in                                                                    
the audience.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson asked about how  much money was in the                                                                    
Educational Facilities,  Maintenance and  Construction Fund.                                                                    
Mr.  Liebelt  did  not  know   the  amount  but  the  amount                                                                    
available for appropriation was zero.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:38:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson  asked how much  was taken out  of the                                                                    
fund for those projects each  year. Mr. Liebelt did not know                                                                    
the answer to her question.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson  requested   that  Co-Chair  Seaton's                                                                    
staff get that information for the committee.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Gara asked  about which forms of  income would be                                                                    
counted. He  surmised that income  from stocks would  not be                                                                    
counted. Mr. Liebelt answered in the affirmative.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair  Gara  asked  about  S  corporation  income  from                                                                    
profits. Mr.  Liebelt thought  it would  depend on  how that                                                                    
income would be defined.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:40:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TANEEKA   HANSEN,   STAFF,   REPRESENTATIVE   PAUL   SEATON,                                                                    
responded that  SB 12  had been  written using  the Internal                                                                    
Revenue  Service  (IRS)  definitions of  net  earnings  from                                                                    
self-employment.  There  was  some  mention  of  partnership                                                                    
income and some partners were  S corporations but there were                                                                    
a lot  of specific  exemptions for that  type of  income. It                                                                    
was difficult  to fully answer  the question  without closer                                                                    
analysis.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Seaton reminded  members  the hearing  was not  on                                                                    
SB 12, but on the concepts therein.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Thompson commented that  he had been an owner                                                                    
of a corporation.  He spoke of a bonus check,  rather than a                                                                    
dividend  payment as  a stockholder,  which was  included in                                                                    
the  W-2 tax  form. He  remarked there  were a  lot of  grey                                                                    
areas.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:41:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt addressed  a graph on slide 4  titled "Impact of                                                                    
Tax  in Alaska  Senate  Bill  12." He  pointed  to the  blue                                                                    
table,  which showed  the tax  that would  be owed  based on                                                                    
income. The far  left of the graph showed  the percentage of                                                                    
impact on  one's income,  from 0.0  percent to  0.6 percent.                                                                    
Anyone  making less  than $20,000  per year  would pay  $50.                                                                    
Anyone earning  between $20,000 and $50,000  would pay $100.                                                                    
Anyone  earning $50,000  to $100,000  would pay  $200. Those                                                                    
earning  $100,000  to $500,000  would  pay  $300, and  those                                                                    
earning  over $500,000  would pay  $500. He  pointed to  the                                                                    
table showing  the percentage of  impact on  wages, salaries                                                                    
and  self-employment  income. The  high  impact  was at  0.5                                                                    
percent. He  noted the  increments listed  at the  bottom of                                                                    
the  graph.  He  pointed  to  spikes  at  $20,000,  $50,000,                                                                    
$100,000   and  $500,000.   Additionally,  someone   earning                                                                    
$99,000 then  crosses over into  the threshold  of $100,000,                                                                    
they would go  from paying from $200 to $300.  The impact at                                                                    
the  $20,000 to  $30,000  level would  be  greater than  for                                                                    
those  at  the   $100,000  level.  In  general,   it  was  a                                                                    
regressive  tax as  it would  have  a higher  impact at  the                                                                    
lower end than at the higher end of income.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:44:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson referred  to  wages  and income.  She                                                                    
wondered  if everyone  would  be paying  at  least $50.  She                                                                    
wondered   if  the   Permanent  Fund   Dividend  (PFD)   was                                                                    
considered taxable income.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt responded  that the PFD would  not be considered                                                                    
earned  income. The  taxable income  in the  legislation was                                                                    
only concerned with wages or income from self-employment.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson asked  about those receiving dividends                                                                    
from corporations. She  asked whether any of  those would be                                                                    
considered earned income.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Hansen  responded  that  publicly  traded  corporations                                                                    
would not  be included.  The IRS [Internal  Revenue Service]                                                                    
definition  did mention  partnership  distributions, but  it                                                                    
contained  several exemptions.  It  was  her understand  was                                                                    
that  the IRS  was attempting  to narrow  the definition  to                                                                    
include   specifically  self-employment.   It  was   a  more                                                                    
detailed answer than she could provide presently.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:46:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson  asked where military  personnel would                                                                    
fall in  the graph.  Mr. Liebelt  did not  have the  data on                                                                    
hand.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Ortiz referred  to slide  3. He  asked about                                                                    
the proportion of revenue  coming from nonresidents compared                                                                    
to a House bill passed earlier in the session.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt thought the percentage was similar.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton  clarified that  most nonresidents  would be                                                                    
earning  wages.  Essentially  the proportionality  would  be                                                                    
comparable.                                                                                                                     
Vice-Chair Gara commented that the  wealthiest would pay the                                                                    
lowest per income versus the  lowest earners would be paying                                                                    
the highest tax. Mr. Liebelt answered in the affirmative.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Gara would want to see that factor changed.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:49:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt  reported that the  sponsor had put  forward the                                                                    
bill in  order to have  some options for  broad-based taxes.                                                                    
He noted that  there could be different  brackets looking to                                                                    
make  things more  equitable.  The amount  of  tax in  those                                                                    
brackets  could  be  changed.   There  were  many  ways  the                                                                    
legislation could  be sliced and diced.  The legislation was                                                                    
devised in order to address a specific fund.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:51:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Seaton  received  a question  from  Representative                                                                    
Saddler in the  audience. They had asked  if the legislation                                                                    
could  be repealed  it through  a  referendum. He  responded                                                                    
that every action  by the legislature could  be addressed in                                                                    
a referendum. He reported  that Representative Justin Parish                                                                    
and  Representative  Geran Tarr  were  in  the audience.  He                                                                    
added that the  bill could be changed  within the committee.                                                                    
His office  had not calculated the  comparison. The analysis                                                                    
had been carried  out by Institute on  Taxation and Economic                                                                    
Policy  (ITEP)  ["Comparing  the  Distributional  Impact  of                                                                    
Revenue Options in  Alaska" by Carl Davis  and Aidan Russell                                                                    
Davis, dated April 2017 (copy on file)].                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:52:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Wilson   wondered   what  the   group   was                                                                    
comparing.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton  indicated that a  number of  tax structures                                                                    
had  been compared,  including a  self-employment tax  and a                                                                    
flat  tax  mechanism.  It  was  based on  the  same  set  of                                                                    
criteria.  He  reiterated   that  SB  12  was   one  way  an                                                                    
employment tax could be structured.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:54:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Gara thought it was  obvious that the legislature                                                                    
was  "stuck  on high  center"  on  the issue  of  generating                                                                    
revenue.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:54:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt highlighted  a bar graph on slide  5 also titled                                                                    
"Impact of Tax in Alaska  Senate Bill 12." He explained that                                                                    
the slide  was looking  at the  impact of  a tax  on various                                                                    
income brackets.  The income range  included impacts  at the                                                                    
lowest 20  percent, and  so on.  There was  no limit  on the                                                                    
right  side. Everything  above $115,000  was broken  down to                                                                    
between   $115,000  and   $228,000,  between   $228,000  and                                                                    
$556,000, and above $566,000. This  was done for comparative                                                                    
purposes. The lowest  40 percent earners were  impacted at a                                                                    
higher level than those at the higher end of the spectrum.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:56:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson  thought  it   would  be  helpful  to                                                                    
include  the  dividend on  the  graph  which would  have  an                                                                    
impact only on residents. She  wanted to see how lopsided it                                                                    
became if the  $1,000 decrease in the PFD  was included. She                                                                    
thought  it was  important  to  compare apples-to-apples  by                                                                    
including  what was  on the  table. She  wanted to  know the                                                                    
total impact of each range.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton commented that the  ITEP report did show the                                                                    
impact  on each  range. It  had  it for  the Permanent  Fund                                                                    
reduction. That chart had been  distributed and could be put                                                                    
on top  of the current chart  to show the impact.  The lower                                                                    
income  ranges showed  a great  effect on  their income.  He                                                                    
referred to  her query about military  personnel and pointed                                                                    
to the $40,000 to $73,000 in the middle range under SB 12.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson was asking in  order for the public to                                                                    
understand.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton noted the ITEP  report from April was on the                                                                    
legislative website. He noted it  did not contain SB 12, but                                                                    
did address the other tax proposals.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:59:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Hansen clarified ITEP had  analyzed how much money would                                                                    
come  from nonresidents  but the  chart showing  impact only                                                                    
spoke  to Alaska  residents. Showing  both categories  would                                                                    
greatly distort the chart.                                                                                                      
Representative Wilson commented that  when talking about the                                                                    
out-of-state  workers, it  was important  to recognize  that                                                                    
the PFD did not affect those taxpayers.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:01:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Liebelt discussed  options  for  increasing revenue  on                                                                    
slide 6:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     1. Increase the number of brackets and tax rate per                                                                        
        bracket                                                                                                                 
     2. Change from flat tax rate to percentage                                                                                 
     3. Include earnings from capital gains and other                                                                           
        investment income                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Liebelt elaborated  on some  of the  concepts from  the                                                                    
bill  that could  be implemented.  He pointed  to the  small                                                                    
table in  blue. If there  was a  2.43 percent rate  on wages                                                                    
and self-employment  earnings, it would generate  about $500                                                                    
million per year.  At 1.82 percent, it  would generate about                                                                    
$375 million,  and at 3.65  percent it would  generate about                                                                    
$750 million  per year.  It was important  to note  that the                                                                    
rate was  not progressive and  would impact everyone  at the                                                                    
same  percentage  amount.  It  only applied  to  sources  of                                                                    
income   within   the   state,  for   both   residents   and                                                                    
nonresidents.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Ortiz  asked  if  it was  a  flat  tax.  Mr.                                                                    
Liebelt answered as  long as it was understood  that it only                                                                    
applied to wages from self-employment.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:03:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Liebelt reviewed  a graph on slide 7  titled "Figure 14:                                                                    
Comparing the  Impact of a Payroll  Tax to an Income  Tax in                                                                    
Alaska." He reported  that 95 percent of  wage earners would                                                                    
be impacted to  a greater extent by a payroll  tax than by a                                                                    
personal  income  tax. He  pointed  to  the middle  bar.  An                                                                    
income tax impacted the middle class more than others.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:04:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Liebelt  addressed  a  graph on  slide  8  also  titled                                                                    
"Figure  14: Comparing  the Impact  of a  Payroll Tax  to an                                                                    
Income Tax in  Alaska." He reported that  the slide included                                                                    
payroll tax, investment gains, and  capital gains as well as                                                                    
other unearned  income. Once the payroll  and investment tax                                                                    
rate  was applied  to the  personal income  tax, the  impact                                                                    
levelled out.  There was  an impact at  1.2 percent  for the                                                                    
lowest 20  percent tax  bracket, up to  1.3 percent,  to 1.7                                                                    
percent and  1.6 percent in  the middle ranges, then  to 1.5                                                                    
percent and 1.4 percent at the highest tax bracket.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:06:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Seaton reported  that  the tax  rate dropped  from                                                                    
2.43 percent [flat tax shown  in the payroll tax scenario in                                                                    
figure  14]   to  2.1  percent   [flat  tax  shown   in  the                                                                    
payroll/investment tax  scenario in  figure 15] as  the flat                                                                    
tax between slides [figures] 14 and  15 [slides 7 and 8]. He                                                                    
stated  it broadened  across income  - it  was not  what had                                                                    
been  included   in  the  governor's  bill.   He  noted  the                                                                    
scenarios reflected an effort  to make things more equitable                                                                    
among various  groups. This  lead to a  flat tax  across all                                                                    
incomes.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson  asked about  using $2,200  per person                                                                    
as a  dividend payment. She  asked whether people  would get                                                                    
money back [from  the reduced dividend in  the previous year                                                                    
through gubernatorial action].                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:07:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Hansen  replied that  for the  ITEP report  each revenue                                                                    
generating   option  had   been  examined   separately.  The                                                                    
analysis  had used  the projected  dividend payment,  rather                                                                    
than  rely  on   the  unknown  amount  of   payments  to  be                                                                    
determined.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Seaton added  that  the report  was  based on  the                                                                    
statutory rate dividend of $2,200.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Representative   Wilson  thought   the  actual   versus  the                                                                    
statutory  dividend  amount would  impact  the  bars in  the                                                                    
graph.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Hansen  responded that  the tax  amount would  appear on                                                                    
slide  8. The  bar from  the reduction  of the  dividend bar                                                                    
onto  the bar  from tax  and  the combined  effect would  be                                                                    
shown how much  income would change if there were  a tax and                                                                    
there was a reduction in the dividend amount.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:10:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson  mentioned the  PFD would be  taxed in                                                                    
HB 115.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Vice-chair  Gara corrected  that a  PFD tax  was not  in the                                                                    
legislation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Hansen  replied in the  previous slide regarding  tax on                                                                    
wages and  self-employment income,  it would not  affect the                                                                    
bars  at all.  In the  present  slide, there  would be  some                                                                    
effect depending on how the bill was written.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair   Gara  asked   Ms.  Hansen   to  speak   to  the                                                                    
disproportional  impact on  lower  income  taxpayers from  a                                                                    
reduction  in dividend  payments, and  how that  compared to                                                                    
Senator  Click  Bishop's bill  [SB  12]  and to  the  Senate                                                                    
proposal for a $1,000 dividend.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Hansen  responded that each  would have to  be equalized                                                                    
to compare  them, and  it would be  too abstract  to present                                                                    
orally.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton  reported that  Figure 15  was based  on the                                                                    
ITEP   report  which   kept  all   analyses  comparable   in                                                                    
generating  $500 million.  He commented  that the  committee                                                                    
was  looking   at  the  comparisons  rather   than  specific                                                                    
numbers. He  thanked Representative Wilson for  her emphasis                                                                    
on  the  impact of  taxes  on  taxpayers. He  mentioned  the                                                                    
difficulty in  determining the range  of incomes  within the                                                                    
state. The  information on  the slide  showed the  impact on                                                                    
different segments  of the population. He  encouraged people                                                                    
to examine  the report on  the website. The report  was only                                                                    
20  pages long  and contained  information on  how different                                                                    
economic segments of the population were impacted.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:14:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Guttenberg mentioned that  in SB 12 there are                                                                    
five  brackets. Most  of the  analysis  in the  presentation                                                                    
contained  seven brackets.  He  wondered  how many  brackets                                                                    
were in the IRS codes to get up to $500,000 income.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Seaton  clarified  that the  brackets  shown  were                                                                    
looking  at  segments  of the  Alaska  economy  rather  than                                                                    
taxes.  He  specified that  they  were  flat taxes  and  not                                                                    
brackets at all.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Guttenberg recognized  that there  were many                                                                    
ways the calculations were arrived  at. He wondered how many                                                                    
brackets were involved.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Hansen  offered that  from memory  she believed  the IRS                                                                    
had eight or  nine brackets. Many states had  many more than                                                                    
that. She spoke of unemployment  insurance that cut off at a                                                                    
certain income.  At the federal  level there were  layers in                                                                    
curves and steps, and at state levels they differed.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton reminded members that  not all of the income                                                                    
was taxed  and that  the impact on  the lower  income levels                                                                    
would be  higher if there  were a $1,000 or  $2,000 dividend                                                                    
and not the proposed changes at present.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:19:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Liebelt concluded  with slide  9 pertaining  to options                                                                    
available to close the state's budget gap:                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     There are  many options available to  close the state's                                                                    
     budget fiscal gap using a  broad based tax. Each option                                                                    
     will  impact families  at  different  income levels  in                                                                    
     very different ways.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Examples:                                                                                                                  
     ·  Personal  Income   Tax:  More   progressive.  Higher                                                                    
        payments from higher income families                                                                                    
     ·  Sales Tax:  More  regressive.  Impacts lower  income                                                                    
        families to a greater extent.                                                                                           
     ·  Reduction to PFD:  Most regressive.  Greatest impact                                                                    
        to lower income, least impact to highest income                                                                         
     ·  Payroll Tax:  Impacts  middle  class more  than  the                                                                    
        lowest or highest income brackets.                                                                                      
     ·  Payroll and  Investment Income  Tax: Most  equitable                                                                    
        across income brackets. Will impact lower income                                                                        
        earners more on their income, and higher income                                                                         
        earners more on their investments                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-chair  Seaton reiterated  that  the  concepts within  the                                                                    
bill were what was being examined.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Vice-Chair Gara  asked what it  would take to  write another                                                                    
bill containing some of the concepts in the presentation.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton thought it was possible.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:21:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KEN ALPER,  DIRECTOR, TAX  DIVISION, DEPARTMENT  OF REVENUE,                                                                    
responded that if the desire was  to draft a bill similar to                                                                    
SB 12  but which would reflect  some of the concepts  in the                                                                    
presentation,  it would  not be  a big  lift for  either the                                                                    
Department  of  Law  or   Legislative  Legal  Services.  The                                                                    
concern  regarding  SB 12  was  in  the  need to  write  the                                                                    
necessary regulations in order to implement the bill.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Gara  asked   whether  Scorporation  owners'                                                                    
income would  count under  the definitions  of the  bill, or                                                                    
whether it would continue to be exempt.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Alper relayed  he thought those categories  would not be                                                                    
included in the bill as written.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:24:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative Ortiz  stated he did  not like to  talk about                                                                    
taxes.  He asked  whether, based  on current  information on                                                                    
the  stock market  and  on oil  prices  and production,  the                                                                    
state could  adjourn the current  session with  the prospect                                                                    
of a fiscal plan without adding revenue.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
RANDALL  HOFFBECK,  COMMISSIONER,   DEPARTMENT  OF  REVENUE,                                                                    
responded that following examination  it was concluded that,                                                                    
if all  components were perfect,  as in high oil  prices and                                                                    
production,  perfect  stock  activity,   there  could  be  a                                                                    
balanced  plan  within four  or  five  years without  adding                                                                    
revenue. However,  if things happened  in a  more consistent                                                                    
fashion, there would be a $300,000 shortfall.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Ortiz  asked   if  PERS  [Public  Employees'                                                                    
Retirement  System] and  TRS  [Teachers' Retirement  System]                                                                    
and oil  tax credit obligations were  included. Commissioner                                                                    
Hoffbeck responded in the negative.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:27:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson spoke  to  self-employment and  asked                                                                    
whether the item appeared on the  table in form C of the tax                                                                    
form.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Commissioner Hoffbeck deferred to Ms. Hansen.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Hansen  was still  getting  familiarized  with the  net                                                                    
earnings deductions.  There were several deductions  and she                                                                    
thought it would likely be that line.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative Wilson  filed self-employment taxes  and knew                                                                    
what it  looked like.  She spoke to  20 deductions.  She got                                                                    
taxed  on her  income to  offset putting  money into  social                                                                    
security. It  would be a  very different calculation  if she                                                                    
were an  employee. Those people  who were  self-employed may                                                                    
pay  less, but  there were  deductions to  be calculated  as                                                                    
well.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:29:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Seaton drew  Representative Wilson's  attention to                                                                    
slide  3. He  pointed  to net  earnings on  self-employment.                                                                    
Those would be after a subtraction of business costs.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Representative  Wilson thanked  Co-Chair  Seaton for  making                                                                    
her point.  As an employee she  would not be able  to deduct                                                                    
certain things, but as a self-employed taxpayer, she could.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton  stressed that  the legislature  was looking                                                                    
at the  information at a  high level and the  bill structure                                                                    
was   not   formed.  He   thanked   Mr.   Liebelt  for   the                                                                    
presentation.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Seaton recessed the meeting  to a call of the chair                                                                    
[Note: the meeting never reconvened].                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:30:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
The meeting was adjourned at 2:30 p.m.                                                                                          

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
Concepts of Employment Tax-Seaton.pdf HFIN 6/12/2017 1:30:00 PM
HFIN Presentation Employment Tax
ITEP Davis HFIN 050117.pdf HFIN 6/12/2017 1:30:00 PM
Response to questions Empl. Tax HFIN 6.12.2017 .pdf HFIN 6/12/2017 1:30:00 PM
Response HFIN Employment Tax